Welsh Squad may have a very youthful look about it...!

First topic message reminder :

Have a read, promising stuff...!

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/07/15/warren-gatland-hails-bold-approach-of-young-welsh-world-cup-hopefuls-91466-29056682/

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/07/15/analysis-time-is-right-for-wales-next-generation-of-stars-to-make-their-mark-91466-29056324/

without Bennett it would have to be a Howley and Phillips sandwich!

Where would poor old Robin Mcbride sleep and the numpty who's always on the laptop. They call him the stats guy, but I think he just shows warren porn everyone Bennett throws into the lineout.

I am a bit confused, nobody in the posts I have read wants Hook at 15 including myself, he is not a specialist FB. Some posters stated Gatland may stick him there as he has in the past. I can see why Gatland has put him there but for the wrong reasons i.e., he kicks the ball long and he is safe under the high ball!

For some of the Scarlets supporters that can't seem to see their team's weakness i.e., their defence I have looked at the tries against last season which is a reasonably measure of the team's defence to justify my comments:

ML
Munster 22
Leinster 25
Ospreys 29
Blues 33
Scarlets 43

HC
Scarlets 24!!! in 6 games and two games were against Italian opposition

alun

Mate I am kinda unbiased here ..... well actually I watched the Osprey more than the Scarlets when I was down your patch the last two yrs.

STREWTH
You can't input numbers on the board (STATS) to justify putting somebody slection in the team instead of a Scarlet player for goodness sake. The majority of the defensive lapses last season were mainly down to the Scarlets pack putting their backs under undue pressure, not the backs themselves.

Its quite clear that both Byrne and Hook have not played that well (up to the training camp), Hook in particular, currently is a defensive liability apart from 30 mins against us he didnt do that much in 2010/11. Roberts hasnt played FB for gawd knows, and the only one I could agree with you is 1/2p but really I would have him there only for his angled runs and his great left peg. However if you have him in for his left peg then you dont need Hook in for his kicking out of hand, and he aint got much else going for him. If I was a Welshman I would certainly worry if he (Hook) was anywhere on the pitch trying to stop the big Fiji or Samoan centres or wings

To close................
Byrne has been dire for the best part of 2 seasons
Hook, Roberts, or 1/2p havent played FB this season

Priestland has, and generally has done well (in spite of your stats)
Stoddart has played well defensively in the main this season

right i am just wondering, i know this is a bit out of it, but HENSON?????

i mean if he plays well in the warm ups and stuff, after all he was a big tackler, can boot a ball a fair distance and was a good attacking option?

Alun - I don't think anybody on here has claimed the Scarlets have an amazing defence - but you can't blame the amount of tries they have conceded on 2 players, it's a combination of things, the pack as FHF says, missed tackles by some players, but mainly on the way the Scarlets play - they play high risk attacking rugby which either leads to spectacular tries or leads to conceding possession with out a defensive line set and conceding a try.

A lot of posters seem to agree that Priestland has played very well at FB this season when asked to, and that Stoddart has also been very good this season - although mostly on the Wing he has had more good games at FB than either Byrne or Hook this season.

And both have a far better defence than Hook, Priestland in particular has a much better defence than Hook at 15 and 10 - yet most people seem to advocate Hook to play 10 and just ignore how poor his defence is and how huge a risk this could be against the big physical sides.

Welshy

Thats some Big IF's there

yes i do realise that smirnoff just a suggestion, i just wish what i said had no ifs and the "was" were replaced by "is"

I know what you mean - it would be a scary team if we had a Henson, Byrne, Roberts, Phillips, R Jones, Halfpenny, AWJ all showing the form from 2008 combined with the players on form now - it would be amazing.

I still think Henson is a bit too raw without enough game time, even after the warm up games to be able to be good enough postionally to play FB, and not enough time to get the game management down to cover 10. It's a shame he's such an idiot but even if he shows form then centre is the only place I see him, and even then he may have a fight on his hands...

Gatland has to go with Byrne. The warm up games aren't there to make wholesale changes. They are about puting the final touches together. We don't want a repeat of twickenham 4 years ago. I'm sure gatland will look at slight changes eg r, jones playing in 2nd row. But on the whole we don't want to start picking Henson at 15. Henson I'm sure will get game time, but in the centre.

One thing I will say about Henson at 15 though. He played there for the ospreys at the dragons in the LV. It was his first game back for a while and didn't play too much after that and to be fair even though he was on the losing team, he was sublime and oozed class.

I tell you what. The more I think about it welshy.......

i know MOG i mean thats what i thought its a bit out there but it could work i mean look at henson doing this from fullback
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTavDoLa_lw

OMG

welshy824/MOG

You are basing Mr Hensons inclusion on a catch and instinctive run just inside the opponents half with probably the worst case of a team based defence ever, I mean they just opened up for him..... and that all of what 4 or 5 yrs ago.

For goodness sake he has been strictly dancing in the Artic circle since.........

Perhaps you better look the last game Henson played I have never seen a player shirk out off so many tackles in one game before in my life. I would say Nigel Walker was a braver player based on Hensons last game

no i know it was an easy try but he commited himself to it and caught the ball at full speed.

i was just thinking another candidate, after all henson will likely be going i am just trying to think of ways which you could justify gats choice

flyhalffactory wrote:OMG

Perhaps you better look the last game Henson played I have never seen a player shirk out off so many tackles in one game before in my life. I would say Nigel Walker was a braver player based on Hensons last game

Sorry - thats just Bull.

For a start against the Babaas he was playing outside a scrumhalf whose game is shot to pieces and only passed the ball when he shouldn't have and ran with it when he should have passed.

Lets look at Henson's recent time in Toulon (who wanted him to stay but Gav wouldn't sacrifice the chance to play for Wales).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKHwtjFQ7Wk&feature=related

Looks a better 12 than JR at the moment I would say! He would fit in at fullback no problem - he has loads of experience there, so no problems with his positional play - you can't UNLEARN how to play a position.

Flyhalf. I was talking about henson's appearance against the dragons just over 2 years ago. I'm not saying he should be 15 at the WC, I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if the coaches are looking at the possibilty. As I said. His performance at Rodney parade was excellent and he also scored 2 tries. The 2nd of which was quite superb. He can do the basics for a full back. He can run, he's got a very good kicking game, he's good in defence and has always been an intelligent player(just nit intelligent off the field).

I'm not saying it'll happen, but you have to hand it to welshy, it was a good shout.

MOG

I agree with you he had a great game. One thing about Gavin is he is so aware of what is going on around him, Gatland actual got him to defend and tackle properly (up to then tackled always cowardly with his shoulder deliberately high) probably the best hands in welsh rugby and perhaps second only to Regan King in the ML, great kicker off both pegs, and graceful devastating runner.

Right lets some reality here THAT WAS 2009

Phil Bennet was an awesome back once upon a timr but you are not going to pick him are you

In his last game in 2011 he was absolutely dire, he was so off the pace than Jon Davies was often marking the two BaaBaa centres, couldnt see an opening if his life depended on it, he looked small compared to all the players around him, even his pass (to North for his try) was forward because he was worried of the tackle coming on him and he has so much time after the quick distribution from Stephen Jones, and SHIRKED OUT OF EVERY TACKLE. The rookie Scott Williams when he came on was better in EVERY FACIT of the game.

So I'll counter your "it was a good shout"................. it was an awful shout based on his last 2 yrs (what last 2 yrs you have to larf mun!!).

So unless Henson has drastically improved in the training camp ........ the the shout should be "get rid of the driftwood" "get rid of the deadwood"

I can't deny that Henson i's his own worst enemy and I for one don't feel that ge should be in the welsh squad. I think it sends a negative message to players that have been busting a gut for the last 2 seasons. I have to agree that he looked completely lost against the ba baas too and he knew it.

The fact i's that he is in the squad. There's no doubt the training camp will be even more vital to henson given his lack of game time. But there's no getting away from the fact that he's a very talented player.

I think that it's a good shout, purely given our lack of depth a 15.
Byrne. Had a few knocks this season and is a shadow of the player he was 2 years ago.
Halfpenny. Can cover 15. Again not sure if he'll make the squad due to injury.
Hook. It's clear to see he can't play 15.
Priestland. Has played there a lot for the scarlets. A bit like Tovey did for the dragons, but has only played about 20 mins in a welsh shirt.

It's wales' biggest weakness and as I said the management may be considering giving him a try.

I think Henson will have to feature at some point during the warm ups and this will no doubt show whether he i's ready and capable of playing international rugby again.

It would be incredible to think that he might never play in a WC for Wales, but has won 2 grand slams. At least this time it won't be garin evans going ahead of him!

manofgwent wrote:I can't deny that Henson i's his own worst enemy and I for one don't feel that ge should be in the welsh squad. I think it sends a negative message to players that have been busting a gut for the last 2 seasons. I have to agree that he looked completely lost against the ba baas too and he knew it.

The fact i's that he is in the squad. There's no doubt the training camp will be even more vital to henson given his lack of game time. But there's no getting away from the fact that he's a very talented player.

I think that it's a good shout, purely given our lack of depth a 15.
Byrne. Had a few knocks this season and is a shadow of the player he was 2 years ago.
Halfpenny. Can cover 15. Again not sure if he'll make the squad due to injury.
Hook. It's clear to see he can't play 15.
Priestland. Has played there a lot for the scarlets. A bit like Tovey did for the dragons, but has only played about 20 mins in a welsh shirt.

It's wales' biggest weakness and as I said the management may be considering giving him a try.

I think Henson will have to feature at some point during the warm ups and this will no doubt show whether he i's ready and capable of playing international rugby again.

It would be incredible to think that he might never play in a WC for Wales, but has won 2 grand slams. At least this time it won't be garin evans going ahead of him!

Reading your gloomy posts mate we have problem areas all over I really dont think we are that bad.

Listening to all the noise coming from the camp i think there will be a host of changes in the team.

Gloomy posts!! Ha ha! Realistic. I can't stand these welsh fans that get carried away, thinking we're going to beat S Africa and top the group. I'm chucking £20 at 9/2on Wales not getting out out of the group. We've only beaten Italy, scotland, Argentina and Ireland in 2 years. Gatlands record in the last 2 years is dire. He hasn't used his time to build for the WC. I'd like to share your enthusiasm, but I don't believe in our coach and I don't believe he'll change his ways or his team.
Believe me. I may be gloomy when we fail to reach the quarters, but at least I'll have £110 innmy back pocket to drown my sorrows. There's a lot of deluded people on these boards thatfor some reason will be shocked when we leave the world cup early. I just don't know where they get their optimism from. Back last summer we couldn't even beat a depleted south African team that had barely walked off the plane. We had our so-called strongest team out and looked largely clueless and lacking direction. If we'd have won we'd probably have brought out a frickin DVD and would now be saying things like "well we beat them a year ago so we can beat them now".
It's no wonder that posters from other countries see welsh fans as arrogant!

manofgwent wrote:Gloomy posts!! Ha ha! Realistic. I can't stand these welsh fans that get carried away, thinking we're going to beat S Africa and top the group. I'm chucking £20 at 9/2on Wales not getting out out of the group. We've only beaten Italy, scotland, Argentina and Ireland in 2 years. Gatlands record in the last 2 years is dire. He hasn't used his time to build for the WC. I'd like to share your enthusiasm, but I don't believe in our coach and I don't believe he'll change his ways or his team.
Believe me. I may be gloomy when we fail to reach the quarters, but at least I'll have £110 innmy back pocket to drown my sorrows. There's a lot of deluded people on these boards thatfor some reason will be shocked when we leave the world cup early. I just don't know where they get their optimism from. Back last summer we couldn't even beat a depleted south African team that had barely walked off the plane. We had our so-called strongest team out and looked largely clueless and lacking direction. If we'd have won we'd probably have brought out a frickin DVD and would now be saying things like "well we beat them a year ago so we can beat them now".
It's no wonder that posters from other countries see welsh fans as arrogant!

Thanks for the Rant, i read half of it...!

Will you be shocked if we do well?

you see i am trying to be optimistic thinking this time in spala will actually help and wales will surprise

Maesteg. Very! I hope I'm wrong, but it's quarters at very best. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I do feel that we have better players than our results suggest. But tactically we're inept and are still playing to a style that worked 3 years ago. Unfortunately everyone else has moved on and we've stood still.

manofgwent wrote:Maesteg. Very! I hope I'm wrong, but it's quarters at very best. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I do feel that we have better players than our results suggest. But tactically we're inept and are still playing to a style that worked 3 years ago. Unfortunately everyone else has moved on and we've stood still.

I guess that we seem to have had a lot of injuries and other absenteeism kind of kindles my optimism, well now that so many have returned, and some smart looking youngsters included, we look to have a good share of talent.

I am also glad that players like Rees and Powell who i always thought lacked a brain, let alone a rugby brain are out...! I see Gatland making a lot of the right decisions at the moment, I am looking forward to seeing if we get any good results from it. There is a lot less coming out of our next rivals camp...

I know I have a different view to you, and I respect yours, please excuse the teasing mate, but I really dont think that Gatland is the complete mug so many people portray him as on here...!

Time will tell maesteg. One thing I do agree on i's that we have a lot of young talent and I do believe that the future looks very bright. I know the academies have been criticised on here, but I think they are beginning to produce and the regional system looks to be working.

manofgwent wrote:Time will tell maesteg. One thing I do agree on i's that we have a lot of young talent and I do believe that the future looks very bright. I know the academies have been criticised on here, but I think they are beginning to produce and the regional system looks to be working.

I completely agree with that.

Over the years and years I have supported our teams the thing that has always got me through the poorer times has been the promise of youthful talent...

We don't need much, just a couple every other year and it keeps our small nation competitive in the international arena.

Can I get in on this mutual appreciation society

1. the regions are working
2. the academies are working
3. your coach is poor .............. he has picked 13 Ospreys and it worked for a time, unfortunately his persistence in picking out of form players, picking some players in various positions as long as he picks them (Hook, Jon Thomas) has been more that detrimental as can be seen in your 6Ns results
4. the "Henson" affect had wrecked the team ethos at both the Ospreys (Henson wannabees Hook, Shane (lesser extent), Byrne, Phillips all tanned and bulked)................ and Wales his "biography" during 2006-2007, and you are just getting over that now ............ the youngsters comimg through are not interested in celeb girlfriends/permatanned....and hence you are getting some decent players coming through. Unfortunately the WRU wanted a Beckhamesque effect to get "bums on seat" much to their shame, Henson/Church fitted the bill, hence they have bent over backwards for him.

So personally I can see Wales coming through pretty soon, but not with Gatland at the helm

Flyhalf:
You may be surprised but I totally agree with your last post, the coaches are poor, man management is very poor and I don't think the team don't trust the management's ability. I hope I am wrong, but I can't see Wales getting to the QF with the current predictable game plan! I believe with the players we have we should be certs for the QF at least.

Agree with alun. Also flyhalf comments on the new breed not being interested in celeb culture. You only had to read a recent interview with warburtom and lydiate to know that the new professional player seems to be more focused. They were saying that although a few of the boys go out after matches. They prefer to head back to their room, discuss the game and chill out. Im not saying there i's anything wrong with a pint after games, but with some of the stories that have come out recently, it's clear to see that certain players egos have got way out of hand.

You know I think the squad will have a good mix this time round and despite the fact were in a tough group i think we will get out of it.

This is the squad I think Gats is going to go for (I wouldnt personally take Bennet but Im sure Gats is going to)

Props - Adam, Gethin, Mitchell. James.
Hookers - Rees, Hibbard, Bennet
Locks - Bradley, AWJ, Charteris.
Back Row - Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, Delve, Nuggett(or Tupuric), Ryan

Scrum Half - Phillips, Knoyle, Peel,
Outside Half - Hook, Jones, Priestland
Centers - Roberts, Henson, JD2
Back Three - Halfpenny, Shane, Byrne, Stoddart, North

Ive underlined those who may not make it because of injury, idiocy and residency in England who might not make it. Otherwise I think thats the squad gats has in mind. Would like to see Tuperic in personally.

idiocy lol, i think thats the squad i would go for, apart from no bennet and maybe scott williams for henson?

TycroesOsprey

I would say you are very close, but just listening to Gatland talking how the youngsters have upped the ante, I would say the following changes

IN: Turnbull
OUT: Nugget

IN: Williams
OUT: Henson

Personally I would leave out AWJ and bring in Ryan at lock, and bring in McCusker, but that aint going to happen

glamorganalun wrote:Flyhalf:
You may be surprised but I totally agree with your last post, the coaches are poor, man management is very poor and I don't think the team don't trust the management's ability. I hope I am wrong, but I can't see Wales getting to the QF with the current predictable game plan! I believe with the players we have we should be certs for the QF at least.

Since the last World Cup in 2007, Wales Won 13 Six Nations games same as Ireland, England have won 12. France have won the most with 14.

So in the Six Nations alone we have been as competitive as Ireland, more than England and not quite as much as France. I would say that is probably the most successful four years of 6N rugby Wales has played in about twenty five years.

Gatland is doing something right. We just now have much higher expectations of our team than we did prior to his arrival.

Maesteg, there's no arguing with those Six Nations statistics. But I still believe that with the players we now have, we could get more out of them at international level if Gatland was more flexible with his tactics. I know you'll disagree, but that's how I feel.

You can argue with the stats and say, 7 six nations wins in 15. Thank the lord italy are in the tournament! Oh and we've been dire in the autumn tests.

And thank the lord for the scots!!!

With respects, chaps, do you genuinely believe we will revert to type tactically when it comes to the next 3 games and onto the RWC?

My own theory is based on the fact that Wales have played nothing but predictable rugby for a little over 3 years. What does that tell you? We've reverted to playing the type of rugby that simply doesn't suit the nature of the quality of players we have. If anything, it's essentially against the ethic of what these players are good at doing and where that might seem like a ''problem'', what I actually believe is happening is the assimilation of game plans that Wales were never capable of standing up to.

My evidence is the kick and defend tactic deployed quite regularly during this years' 6N campaign. The moves throughout some games i.e. Italy looked hideously predictable and over-coached. Why? It's a simple measure of stick to the plan. Kick for territory, improve the set piece (even if it was shakey) and attack only when it's on. To me it was blatantly obvious.

This is undeniably a coached system being deployed on field. In moments where we saw strange events, you only need look at the tiny percentages over the France and Scotland games of 2010 where Wales actually decided to embark on their own instincts and attacked. It paid off in 1 game but not the other - but the real telling factor was what happened in a short space of time when play wasn't following the coached system.

Gatland isn't so much ''holding Wales back'', he's just stubbornly drilling a type of rugby capable of sustaining a better defensive unit against better opposition and enforcing the ability to cope under higher defensive pressure. Something Wales have never been capable of in the professional era until now. OK, granted, we have very limited resources in Wales and that does play a large factor in how you approach newer caps and how they fit into your system, but it's all relevant. We very, very rarely get a solid hiding from teams these days and that's because we've been working on a model of rugby that is able to keep us within a reasonable chance of a win.

Consider the larger losses, I mean, every team has a really bad day when they ship points like they were passes, but that's part of rugby and what the opposition want to do to you.

Our current systematic and predictable model will not work in the RWC and that's why I completely agree why public opinion in Wales is low on our chances and why people are losing faith, but I offer you this; Gatland has yet to instruct this team to simply go out and play their way (having now been well drilled on defensive systems, forward strength improved set-piece organisation) and while it might not pay off, it's the only thing I think he left under his sleave.

He's coached them on being a more resilient defence outfit capable of being within a shout of the SH teams, but now he might just say: ''Use that and do what you do best''

Thanks for reading my essay, fellas!

True Man of Gwent - if you look at those stats from 2008 it would be 8 wins since 08, and 3 of those would be against Italy. So in 3 years we've beaten the top NH nations (including Scotland) 5 times out of 12. I don't think it's that great a record when you consider our dire AI record, and the terrible way we've been playing since the GS.

I agree with some (a lot) of what you say Barry John - and do believe it's the defensive stucture and play the percentages approach that is the reason why we play like we do.

But I can't see Gatland making a dramatic change from what he has drilled into the team for 3 years and adopting a new approach in the space of 3 games. I think if we crash and burn and a new coach is appointed then he will reap the benefits of Gatlands strict, defensive approach and will had a creative freedom to that. But I don't see Gatland changing.

The most worrying stat prior to the WC i's our record over the last year. 3 wins, 1 draw and 9 losses. We seem to have gone backwards. I's almost as if we do great after the WC, keep the same players and style of play and gradually decline. Whereas the southern hemisphere teams and the likes of England and Ireland seem to build and get stronger before a tournament. I put it down to poor coaching and pressure to get results, rather than looking at the bigger picture and looking to build.

If we do fairly well at the World Cup and Gatland stays in his post, then it's likely that he'll cull a fair few players and start building a team with an eye on the next World Cup. But that doesn't explain why he hasn't used the four years he's had in charge to build a team with an eye on this World Cup.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I agree with some (a lot) of what you say Barry John - and do believe it's the defensive stucture and play the percentages approach that is the reason why we play like we do.

But I can't see Gatland making a dramatic change from what he has drilled into the team for 3 years and adopting a new approach in the space of 3 games. I think if we crash and burn and a new coach is appointed then he will reap the benefits of Gatlands strict, defensive approach and will had a creative freedom to that. But I don't see Gatland changing.

Sure, I see your point and you're absolutely right to assume that. We've not seen anything different under Gatland's system to think otherwise, have we?

I could be accused of paying too much attention to detail here, but there's a hint in the preparation work being conducted at Spala right now. Intense physical training and then skill set work. From certain sources, it's apparent that no defence strategies are being worked on at all, it's just simple, basic skills and hard physical training. What that suggests to me, is that everything up until this point has been about executing a drilled plan from kick-off only allowing for attack when it's on - i.e. going against the nature of what some of our players are good at. Now, however, it could be about telling these players to rely on all the experience, knowledge and awareness they've gained under him, but playing with a complete 'go-forward' capability at intensities they've never been able to cope with before. That's the only reason I think it can change inside a short space. It's not as though he's asking them to adopt a completely different plan, per se, more that they play with constant go-forward but if and when opposition close in on it, they have the tools to adapt under pressure while continuing that go-forward (unless it goes Pete Tong, of course)

At present (and pending the rugby played over the next month) and exclusively based on last game form, we will not reach the quarter finals in my opinion, but if we play with constant go-forward i.e. attacking set pieces, attacking in pods, attacking the fringes and attacking pretty much everything sight in a controlled, composed way, we might just be good enough to earn ourselves a group RU spot. Anything from there, I cannot predict.

If s. Jones, sideways jones, Bennett and a few others are still running out for Wales in the 6 nations I think I'll cry. Why don't we do what the SH teams do? They keep a couple of their big stars and cull the rest. They then come over to the European leagues and fill their boots!
Why has it taken gatland this long to see what the majority have seen for ages. That the likes of Powell and johnathon anonymous weren't as good as the youngsters coming through.
Mark ring said a while ago. When asked "do you think faletau can be better than Ryan jones?". He replied " he was better than Ryan when I coached him at cross keys". Says it all. It's just the pundits on the TV for whatever reason don't give their full feelings. They hint at certain things. But people who come out and say it like it is, like Paul turner get rapped for doing so.
4 years ago, Gareth Jenkins was being crucified by the media, but I don't see him doing much worse than gatland. What's everyone so afraid of? Say it like it is! We're a decent team. A few players aren't as good as a lot would have you believe. We have a lot of good talent, but how many of our squad would be in a lions shirt right now? 2? Maybe.

manofgwent wrote:If s. Jones, sideways jones, Bennett and a few others are still running out for Wales in the 6 nations I think I'll cry. Why don't we do what the SH teams do? They keep a couple of their big stars and cull the rest. They then come over to the European leagues and fill their boots!
Why has it taken gatland this long to see what the majority have seen for ages. That the likes of Powell and johnathon anonymous weren't as good as the youngsters coming through.
Mark ring said a while ago. When asked "do you think faletau can be better than Ryan jones?". He replied " he was better than Ryan when I coached him at cross keys". Says it all. It's just the pundits on the TV for whatever reason don't give their full feelings. They hint at certain things. But people who come out and say it like it is, like Paul turner get rapped for doing so.
4 years ago, Gareth Jenkins was being crucified by the media, but I don't see him doing much worse than gatland. What's everyone so afraid of? Say it like it is! We're a decent team. A few players aren't as good as a lot would have you believe. We have a lot of good talent, but how many of our squad would be in a lions shirt right now? 2? Maybe.

mog,

It's pretty simple. The standard of 'test' quality player in Wales isn't as good as what people living in Wales thinks it is. Yes, we breed players with excellent basic skills, but we don't breed and indoctrinate them from an early age like they do in the SH because we don't have the infrastructure in grass roots rugby to guarantee quality in numbers (yet). Granted, the academies are proving their worth because we're slowly producing better skilled athletes who are more game aware at a younger age.

Players like Faletau are, in my opinion, exception to the rule because I believe even with 1 cap under his belt, he's got test material written all over him, but that doesn't necessarily mean he actually is or will be a good test player. I would normally opt for consistency, stability and experience in other cases, but Faletau appears to have a natural grasp for test conditions - and he does this merely by being consistently physical in the contact.

Also, I think Gareth Jenkins (although nothing against the man) was incredibly naive and genuinely believed we had the muscle to play ''the welsh way'' and sustain it against teams who tore us to shreds. Ironically, you could argue that it is the polar opposite to Gatland's system. Jenkins was right by allowing a more natural flow to the players' game, but what he didn't have was a well drilled andfit squad at his disposal to be able to execute that style of rugby effectively and cope with the intensity of other teams. Hence, we got absolutely, physically and mentally anhilated by England pre 2007 RWC.

There's also a huge problem in Wales with the culture in rugby that's still present despite efforts from outside coaches or senior figureheads. Most of the folk who ''tell it how it is'' simply aren't speaking from a collective point of view and that's why they get shunned. There's always an agenda with the WRU and there likely will always be, but there has to be to some extent because in it's their priority to ensure the success of the national game (and that includes the Regions' cooperation). Whether or not you agree with it, doesn't matter, that's the way it is.

Yes, you're right, some of the out-spoken are absolutely entitled to say their piece, but I insist on reminding people that we're not a big nation and do not have a wealth of playing resources, so there must be a level of reality observed in how that balance is achieved.

Barry John III wrote:we breed players with excellent basic skills

If that's true, why do we see the national side squander so many overlaps? Drawing the man before passing to exploit an overlap should be instinctive, but most of the time we throw miss passes instead.

All I can say is I hope your right Barry, but I just don't have your faith.

And MOG I think something you said there says it all for Welsh rugby a coach from Wales can have a poor or adequate record and get absolutely slated and dragged over the coals for being clueless (a lot of those doing the slating are people from other clubs/regions/valleys - or ones who think the coach is from the wrong club/region/valley), while a SH coach can have an equal record but people have to axe to grind and will still think it's part of some master plan, that it's all engineered for a reason.

I think this is a shocking mindset for a professional rugby nation and we need to have more faith in our coaches. Don't get me wrong I'm not using Jenkins as an example or saying he shouldn't have been sacked - I just think that if Gatland was Welsh, rightly or wrongly, he would have been sacked by now.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Barry John III wrote:we breed players with excellent basic skills

If that's true, why do we see the national side squander so many overlaps? Drawing the man before passing to exploit an overlap should be instinctive, but most of the time we throw miss passes instead.

According to the likes of Ian Foster, Graham Henry and even Gatland, more recently. All of whom can say with merit having coached in New Zealand, so I'm inclined to take their word - they wouldn't say it otherwise, they have nothing gain by mentioning it. I would argue that what you're talking about is more of a game awareness issue, and the fact that we now play flat and drift quickly to width where miss-passes are common. Are they not detriments to that sort of stye? I didn't see any of that happen during 2004/2005 where the skills were obvious.

Either that or we've been paying too much attention to strength work and not spending enought time practising basic ball-handling skills. I've heard that there's a fair bit of skills training going on in Poland though, so that's a good sign.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Either that or we've been paying too much attention to strength work and not spending enought time practising basic ball-handling skills. I've heard that there's a fair bit of skills training going on in Poland though, so that's a good sign.

In my reply to SmirnoffPriest above I mentioned this too.

Apparently, the work in Spala is focused on intense physical work/fitness and the remainder purely skill set work. So, yeah, I think we can draw a positive line under that! (here's hoping )

Its hard to say who will start the 6 Nations this far in advance as I reckon we will see quite a few retirements, both Williams' S Jones and maybe even Peel.

However come Jan next year I think we will have at least 4 players challenging for the No10 shirt in Hook, Priestland, Tovey and Biggar.

Lets hope that same challenge is there with recognised players who are fullbacks and not Utility players.

manofgwent wrote:You can argue with the stats and say, 7 six nations wins in 15. Thank the lord italy are in the tournament! Oh and we've been dire in the autumn tests.

Totally true

Why do posters look back over say 6 seasons when they know two GS's skew the figures, more importantly are the two 4ths and 5ths.

You can count yourselves lucky that England inexplicably changed tactics when having the upper hand in your 2005 & 2008 GS years

Also the 2009 win against us was a travesty of justice, also Italy are ruing some missed opportunities over the last 3 seasons

TBH in most Scottish eyes (opinions) we have progressed as a national team, and see us just ahead of the Italians, on par with the Welsh but just behind Ireland, and a bit behind England and France

Unfortunately both our ML teams were pants this year, so we are erring on caution