606v2 picks the best Irish RWC 22: FORWARDS BENCH

First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.


The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

So far the team is

Healy-Best-Ross
O'Connell-O'Callaghan
Ferris-Heaslip-Wallace
Reddan-Sexton
Darcy-O'Driscoll
Trimble-Earls-Bowe

This is for places on the bench, should be a toughie...brace yourselves......

BUCKLEY: Huge man, great in the loose but can be very poor in the scrum. Quite inconsitent at times, can blow very hot or very cold. Good hands for a prop and at times is an excellent counterrucker. Good defender.
COURT: Can play both sides of the scrum. Better LH. Ok scrummager and ok in the loose, nothing special but solid and reliable. Good discipline and defence.
FLANNERY: Hasn't played a lot of rugby over the last 18 months. Based on previous games, is a great lineout thrower, viscous in the loose, but can be indisciplined and at times has poor decision making. Good defender.
CRONIN: Very athletic in the loose and has some serious wheels. Not the most reliable lineout thrower. Defence is pretty good and runs good support lines looking to take offloads and break away.
CULLEN: Great leadership skills, and an excellent lineout operator. Reads the game very well and can be a calm head coming off the bench. Good defence but not great with ball in hand.
RYAN: Versatile in that he can play lock or 6. Good in the air and is very athletic in the loose although may not be the most accomplished attacker in terms of decision making.
O'BRIEN: Huge ball carrying threat, excellent offloader, and quite quick. HCup player of the tournament which says a lot of him and can play in any position in the backrow.
JENNINGS: Would bring something different off the bench and could change the game considerably. Possibly not international standard but has been playing well when in the Leisnter team. Another born leader.

Enjoy

Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

Court, Cronin, Cullen and whoever out of the holy trinity of Ferris, O'Brien or Wallace who doesn't start.

If Flannery is fit I'd be tempted to go for his experience ahead of Cronin.

I voted Cullen for lock cover but I think there is a lot to be said for going for ryan here. If we were winning a game I think Cullen is the guy to lock it out secure ball tuck it up the jumper, rumble forward make no yards but keep it safe.

If we were losing I think Ryan may provide an injection of energy that Cullen may not be able to provide.

Ps: I voted for Cullen but am thinking of changing my mind because I amn't sure I can see us being ahead of Aus with 15 to go for some reason i see us winning it at the end.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

If we were losing I think Ryan may provide an injection of energy that Cullen may not be able to provide.

True but I think Cullen is a guy who can really come on and steady the ship and lift the players around him. He's a fantastic leader and a very smart player. Cullen is really unfortunate that he's competing with POC for a place because he's a fantastic player.

Cronin, Court, Ryan and Sob.

Bench is all about impact but the players have to be able to do the basics of their job as well which is why court over buckley.
Buckley is a lot worse at loosehead than court is at tighthead. If healy got injured in the first minute and we have to rely on
buckley for the rest of the match we're screwed.

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

If we were losing I think Ryan may provide an injection of energy that Cullen may not be able to provide.

True but I think Cullen is a guy who can really come on and steady the ship and lift the players around him. He's a fantastic leader and a very smart player. Cullen is really unfortunate that he's competing with POC for a place because he's a fantastic player.

That's why I voted for ryan, cullen isn't a better player than poc and he isn't a better leader so he's only going to be used if we're winning by enough that it's comfortable to take poc off.

Fair enough Val but if POC got injured I'd far rather have Cullen come of the bench than Ryan.

Ryan has had a very good season but for me Cullen is a better player.

I've plumped for Cullen as he will really boost the line-out if he comes on which the same can't be said for Ryan. Plus I agree with the points about his leadership abilities.

I can see this one being quite tight (apart from O'Brien at 19).

I've gone for a bench of Flannery, Court, Ryan and O'Brien.
Both val and rodders make a good point wrt the Cullen or Ryan debate. I've gone for Ryan in the sense that it's a decision that I've made based on tactics rather than in fear of injury.

I think that O'Connell is more likely to play for 80 minutes. He's our best lock and is the best leader in the forwards. Cullen is so unlucky to be behind him as he's an excellent player himself. But all of his strengths are POC's strengths only that POC does most of them better.

I believe that it's more likely that it'll be DOC that'll be replaced after ~65mins (or sooner depending on his discipline) and Ryan is the one to give us that "oomph" off the bench.

Court is a no-brainer, so is O'Brien.

So that leaves hooker. I've gone for Flannery based purely on experience and pedigree. I feel sorry for Cronin because I believe he should have far more gametime by now. Flannery has been injured (off and on) for the best part of 2 seasons now and yet Cronin has only ever gotten very brief cameos off the bench in that time. He undoubtedly has the talent but you'd have to question whether giving him an extended runout for the first time during a world cup is the best thing to do, given that hooker is such a key position.

I'd like to see Cronin get plenty of gametime during the warmups. If he outperforms Flannery (if Flannery is even fit) then he should be the one to get the bench spot. And if he does, I hope we actually use him. But for now, based on what I've said above I'm going with Flannery.

roddersm wrote:Fair enough Val but if POC got injured I'd far rather have Cullen come of the bench than Ryan.

Ryan has had a very good season but for me Cullen is a better player.

If poc gets injured, cullen is obviously his replacement but I'd rather we used the bench for impact as opposed to it just being there in case of emergencies. Ryan and cullen are different players and I don't think cullen is up to international level.

Val I understand the logic for having a more robust player like Ryan on the bench but I think there are different types of impact.

Cullen may not be as dynamic as Ryan but the fact that we can bring on the captain of Europes top club gives us a big boost and also is more of a psychological blow to most of our opponents.

I suspect that Cullen is held in higher esteem than Ryan by his peers and his inclusion on the bench is a big plus for us.

Also given POC's recent injury problems I don't think you could say with confidence that he is more likely to play 80 min than DOC these days.

roddersm wrote:Also given POC's recent injury problems I don't think you could say with confidence that he is more likely to play 80 min than DOC these days.

Well, the first injury was the groin problem that was misdiagnosed. the ankle injury came next due to him being dropped in the lineout. That's a very different situation to say, Ferris' knee problems or Flannery's compartment syndrome. DOC, POC, Ryan and Cullen are all just as likely to suffer a freak injury so I don't think that's a fair comment.

I think they're very very different players so it depends a lot on what you want from your bench. If we have Cronin and O'Brien already there then you could argue that there's enough impact there already to leave Ryan out in place of Cullen. If however you go for Flannery instead of Cronin (as I have) then I think having Ryan's impact off the bench becomes more important.

I get what you're saying about the psychological impact about bringing on Cullen but in order to do that we must bring POC off. To me, this is more of a psychological boost to the opposition given that most will hold him in higher esteem. I'm not arguing per se, just giving my opinion. I think both are great options to have and I definitely wouldn't be in any way upset or disappointed if Cullen gets the spot ahead of Ryan.

roddersm wrote:Val I understand the logic for having a more robust player like Ryan on the bench but I think there are different types of impact.

Cullen may not be as dynamic as Ryan but the fact that we can bring on the captain of Europes top club gives us a big boost and also is more of a psychological blow to most of our opponents.

I suspect that Cullen is held in higher esteem than Ryan by his peers and his inclusion on the bench is a big plus for us.

Also given POC's recent injury problems I don't think you could say with confidence that he is more likely to play 80 min than DOC these days.

Since poc has come back he's only not done 80mins in two matches, one because of a red card and another because the idiots dropped him. None of our opponents are going to care that cullen is captain of leinster, I don't see how that gives us a psychological advantage. How his peers see him doesn't make much of a difference, I'm sure that bod probably holds horgan in higher esteem than trimble, but that doesn't mean horgan will make the bench. I've made this argument before, but I don't think cullen is good enough for international level and if Poc is out I will be very worried.

Court,Cronin,Cullen,SOB/whoever doesn't get picked of the big three.

Flannery could snake his way in there but Cronin is probably the bigger impact player who offers a good theat in the loose. Cullen is great in the lineout and is a player who offers a calming influence if the team are losing and will help inspire them to victory.

Val and MMC fair enough. I just believe the our opponents will be much happier to see Donacha Ryan come or the bench than Cullen.

The Trimble and Horgan comparison is invalid. Trimble is an established international player whereas Ryan isn't even 1st choice 2nd row at Munster.

This is completely flawed as there is no way Kidney is dumb enough to leave out the in form player of the year.

roddersm wrote:Val and MMC fair enough. I just believe the our opponents will be much happier to see Donacha Ryan come or the bench than Cullen.

The Trimble and Horgan comparison is invalid. Trimble is an established international player whereas Ryan isn't even 1st choice 2nd row at Munster.

I'm just making the point that esteem has nothing to do with it, nor does the physiological impact. Imo a bench should be picked to make an impact; not to cover in the event of injuries. Cullen for poc will weaken us, as will cullen for doc. Ryan for poc won't happen but ryan for doc would be a good impact sub for 15-20 minutes. It is unfortunate that tuohy's form dropped off a cliff after injury, as otherwise, he would be in poll position for the bench slot.

Boyne wrote:This is completely flawed as there is no way Kidney is dumb enough to leave out the in form player of the year.

What has Nevin Spence and Felix Jones got to do with the forwards selection?

valjester wrote:

roddersm wrote:Val and MMC fair enough. I just believe the our opponents will be much happier to see Donacha Ryan come or the bench than Cullen.

The Trimble and Horgan comparison is invalid. Trimble is an established international player whereas Ryan isn't even 1st choice 2nd row at Munster.

I'm just making the point that esteem has nothing to do with it, nor does the physiological impact. Imo a bench should be picked to make an impact; not to cover in the event of injuries. Cullen for poc will weaken us, as will cullen for doc. Ryan for poc won't happen but ryan for doc would be a good impact sub for 15-20 minutes. It is unfortunate that tuohy's form dropped off a cliff after injury, as otherwise, he would be in poll position for the bench slot.

I think that is a very good point. At the same time Cullen has expereience that Ryan does not and may be phased more too. I think Cullen coming on for DOC would be ok.

One other point if the lineout is in tatters and it's not Best's fault then having CUllen would be far better than having Ryan. Cullen is very very good in the lineout

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

valjester wrote:

roddersm wrote:Val and MMC fair enough. I just believe the our opponents will be much happier to see Donacha Ryan come or the bench than Cullen.

The Trimble and Horgan comparison is invalid. Trimble is an established international player whereas Ryan isn't even 1st choice 2nd row at Munster.

I'm just making the point that esteem has nothing to do with it, nor does the physiological impact. Imo a bench should be picked to make an impact; not to cover in the event of injuries. Cullen for poc will weaken us, as will cullen for doc. Ryan for poc won't happen but ryan for doc would be a good impact sub for 15-20 minutes. It is unfortunate that tuohy's form dropped off a cliff after injury, as otherwise, he would be in poll position for the bench slot.

I think that is a very good point. At the same time Cullen has expereience that Ryan does not and may be phased more too. I think Cullen coming on for DOC would be ok.

One other point if the lineout is in tatters and it's not Best's fault then having CUllen would be far better than having Ryan. Cullen is very very good in the lineout

The lineout will hopefully be better, we only lost one against england that I can remember and that was because heaslip dropped the ball. Cullen will definitely improve the lineout if he comes in for doc but thats because he is a middle line jumper and doc is a front line jumper. We would lose a lot, in the loose, taking doc of for cullen. I don't think ryan would be phased by it, and to be honest any player phased shouldn't be in the 30, and would bring a lot.

Cullen and POC make a good lock pairing against certain teams.
For example, if we were up against SA I would start the two of them, with a backrow of O’Brien, Ferris and Heaslip to balance the loss of DOC’s bulk.

Not sure Mick, I think I'd still want DOC in there, Botha isn't that great in the air it's mainly Mathfield and backrowers IMO.

I think Ryan could be a positive impact player but I think to say Cullen isn't international standard is wrong.

Mickado wrote:Cullen and POC make a good lock pairing against certain teams.
For example, if we were up against SA I would start the two of them, with a backrow of O’Brien, Ferris and Heaslip to balance the loss of DOC’s bulk.

Its not doc's bulk you lose, it his work rate. If cullen starts then poc has to play the doc role. He has done it in the past when paired with mok. But although poc is capable of doing doc's job without much of a drop off in quality, if any, there is a drop off between poc and cullen.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Not sure Mick, I think I'd still want DOC in there, Botha isn't that great in the air it's mainly Mathfield and backrowers IMO.

I think Ryan could be a positive impact player but I think to say Cullen isn't international standard is wrong.

We had this argument before so I don't think there is any point having it again.

The boks usually play quite a tall backrow of smith, burger and spies all of who are good in the lineout. Matfield has had a poor season and has no form so it'll be interesting to see how he comes back. If pdv continues to insist on playing smit at 2 that'll also weaken their lineout, as well as their team, he was muck at the weekend and their lineout was a shambles.

Cullen has to bench because he has experience of calling a lineout. His work in the lineout would make him an essential replacement- it's the old truism, "if O'Connell goes down in the first minute..." versus potential impact players.

Flannery, Court, Cullen, O'Brien - easy enough to call every position IMO

well can't be that easy if at the moment Cronin is beating Fla in the vote.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:well can't be that easy if at the moment Cronin is beating Fla in the vote.

Easy enough in my own mind. In these threads I've often had doubts, second guesses etc.

I'm happy enough with that bench. Makes sense to me. Other people can vote for who they think is best. If my picks aren't chosen, they aren't chosen.

Good attitude to have I guess.

I would love to be able to watch the Irish training sessions to see if Cronin's throwing is improving now that he is with the entire irish setup for an extended period of time

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:well can't be that easy if at the moment Cronin is beating Fla in the vote.

Easy enough in my own mind. In these threads I've often had doubts, second guesses etc.

I'm happy enough with that bench. Makes sense to me. Other people can vote for who they think is best. If my picks aren't chosen, they aren't chosen.

Me too - if Flannery is fit enough to be in contention for a spot, he is miles ahead of Cronin, who tends to go to pieces with nerves when wearing Ireland green and knock on, drop the ball or something at a crucial time. For that reason I would nearly have Varley ahead of him except Varley can't throw straight either!

Mind you, I wouldn't have Fla on the bench in the first place if he is fit

Cronin ins't that bad Sin, he has made a few high profil errors but no more actual errors than others really, not to any great extent anyways.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Cronin ins't that bad Sin, he has made a few high profil errors but no more actual errors than others really, not to any great extent anyways.

His ratio of errors per minute are high though!

He was visibly shaking before throwing the ball on one occasion. That would inspire your jumpers alright!

Well the handling errors/per minute stat isn't accurate because most of the time Cronin comes on it's with a few minutes to go and thus we have been pushing harder for the win. The French game being a prime example of that.

You are going to make more errors if you are trying to force the game IMO.

Don't really remember his lineout throwing in this 6N being good or bad.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Cronin ins't that bad Sin, he has made a few high profil errors but no more actual errors than others really, not to any great extent anyways.

His ratio of errors per minute are high though!

He was visibly shaking before throwing the ball on one occasion. That would inspire your jumpers alright!

Kind of tough when you're not getting consistent minutes or even a start here or there, then come on in high profile games.

MBTGOG wrote:

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Cronin ins't that bad Sin, he has made a few high profil errors but no more actual errors than others really, not to any great extent anyways.

His ratio of errors per minute are high though!

He was visibly shaking before throwing the ball on one occasion. That would inspire your jumpers alright!

Kind of tough when you're not getting consistent minutes or even a start here or there, then come on in high profile games.

He has started against New Zealand, Australia, Argentina & Samoa! He only missed out on SA to make it a grand slam of the SH teams as a starter!

Particularily for a bench player who is coming on and has to immediatly get up to intensity of everything happening on the pitch.

Who didn't play badly against Aus and NZ realistically? Trimble and Buckley and Tuohy that was more a less it.

Samoa was a scrappy affair and Argentina wasn't that much better.
He doesn't have handling that bad. In terms of tempermeant not 100% sure

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Particularily for a bench player who is coming on and has to immediatly get up to intensity of everything happening on the pitch.

Who didn't play badly against Aus and NZ realistically? Trimble and Buckley and Tuohy that was more a less it.

Samoa was a scrappy affair and Argentina wasn't that much better.
He doesn't have handling that bad. In terms of tempermeant not 100% sure

His problem is that he tries to do too much when he gets on because he knows he has so little time to impress. He is miles ahead of varley and flannery will have to be fit and playing well to get ahead of him. The most disappointing thing about croinin this season was how he sort of gave up on connacht after he got his move to leinster, I thought it was quite a poor attitude to the connacht management, fans and his teammates.

The annoying thing about the poor throwing from hookers is that its something they should be able to improve. Flannery used to be awful but he went away and improved his technique until he was nearly flawless from touch. Varley, Fogartys, Kyriccao(?) and brady are all poor throwers with poor technique. Best and croinin don't have the best technique and their temperament lets them down on occasion. There are times when if the first one goes wrong, you just know its going to be a long day. Sherry at munster has a very good technique but he hasn't been put under pressure yet so we can't be sure of his temperament.

16. Court 17.Fla 18. Cullen 19. SOB
Court needs to be there as he can cover both sides, Fla because he is the best hooker we have but may lack fitness (I want him to start but what can you do ). Cullen is our best lock outside of the two starting and SOB for his impact off the bench

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Particularily for a bench player who is coming on and has to immediatly get up to intensity of everything happening on the pitch.

Who didn't play badly against Aus and NZ realistically? Trimble and Buckley and Tuohy that was more a less it.

Samoa was a scrappy affair and Argentina wasn't that much better.
He doesn't have handling that bad. In terms of tempermeant not 100% sure

Wallace played well on that tour, when he came in for D'Arcy but not many else.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Who didn't play badly against Aus and NZ realistically? Trimble and Buckley and Tuohy that was more a less it.

I though O'Driscoll had a superb game against NZ, particularly when he moved to fly half after ROG got binned.