606v2 picks the best Irish RWC 22: STARTING SCRUMHALF

Edit, all, I'm going to be leaving this poll here for a day or so before moving it back into the RWC selection subsection



First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.


The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

So far the team is
Healy-Best-Ross
O'Connell-O'Callaghan
Ferris-Heaslip-Wallace

This is going to be a toughie a lot of good options here lads! Keep it clean!

Scrumhalves:

REDDAN: Showed good form since December and seems to be one of the best rounded scrumhalves we have in our 30 man squad. His passing is quick enough and he doesn't hang around the ruck for too long. Can be poor if his pack are going backwards but can also lead from the front and be instrumental in creating quick attacking ball by taking the initative. Average box kick, average defender, big game experience. Good relationship with Heaslip, SOB and Sexton.
STRINGER: Vastly experienced player. Has one of the best passes off the deck in the world regarding pace and accuracy. He also gets the ball our of the ruck very quickly and is great at marshalling his pack. Is very unbalanced as he rarely makes a break, has poor defence and his box kicking is average. Can be an excellent impact sub. Great relationship with O'Gara.
O'LEARY: Exceptionally physical scrumhalf with good defence and is also quick. Versatile in that he can at a push play wing and centre. He is a poor passer for an international scrumhalf. His passing is slow and sometimes very inaccurate. He can take a long time getting the ball away from the ruck also. His decision making can be poor also be it how long it takes him to make a decision and he takes the wrong option more than other international scrumhalves. Average-poor box kicker.

Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

Cheers
Pete

Reddan

best of the bunch really this season

D24tress wrote:Reddan

best of the bunch really this season

+1

Wouldn't like the idea of either of the other two starting against Australia or in a 1/4 final.

Reddan for me. Most consistant all last year.

As a slight aside, who would you really not want to see against Australia if you had to choose, TOL or Stringer????

Against Australia or France I'd say O'Leary. Reddan for the rest. For what its worth though Reddans performance against South Africa is the worst scrumhalf display I've seen since Bergamasco. Its been sticky forgotten.

red_stag wrote:Against Australia or France I'd say O'Leary. Reddan for the rest. For what its worth though Reddans performance against South Africa is the worst scrumhalf display I've seen since Bergamasco. Its been sticky forgotten.

Everyone has played bad games.
You need to give reddan credit for the games he played well in to.
As do many in relation to TOL also.

Reddan all the way, with Strings warming the bench. Good squad rotation is going to be key so expect TOL to play in a few of the lesser group stage matches.

Reddan with Murray on the bench...and as Murray is tragically not here then TOL takes his place.

Yeah I would have felt much better if Murray had been there i gotta say.

Oh well.

Agree that rotation against the likes of Russia and the USA is key. How many days between matches generally? 6/7 days?

Pete any way you can get your articles moved back to the main discussion page. they really are getting lost in this fantasy section

Yeah Kev they really are. Was thinking of jsut stopping them at this stage cos no one see's them.

Realistically if I ask to get this moved back then all the others on here should be moved back too and that will be defeating what the mods and admins are trying to do I guess.

Sure no harm in asking really I guess.

great idea kiwi

just move the relevant one over and then take it back after the next

Although i'd say this is one of the most straight forward selections

redden is still at 100 percent

sounds good Kiwi. Pete usually does one a day so sounds like a good alternative

Yeah thanks Kiwi,

If the most recent one was up on the main board and then went down to the subsection after the next one was put up. Apologies just PM-ed you before I saw this post.

Pls, pls, only one at a time tho!

caoimhincentre wrote:

red_stag wrote:Against Australia or France I'd say O'Leary. Reddan for the rest. For what its worth though Reddans performance against South Africa is the worst scrumhalf display I've seen since Bergamasco. Its been sticky forgotten.

Everyone has played bad games.
You need to give reddan credit for the games he played well in to.
As do many in relation to TOL also.

i do give reddan credit. I consider him our best scrumhalf and said as much. However if we play france or australia then oleary is a better pick in my opinion.

I never though Reddan was a great scrum half,his passing is sometimes slow and he can be a bit ponderous at times. Let's not forget that damn step before he passes. But he is the best option ahead of Murray.

Stag if you see reddan as the Best SH why wouldn't you start him against Aus or fra.
O'Leary more direct with ball in hand. Good with set piece moves, Using his Pace?

Thomond wrote:I never though Reddan was a great scrum half,his passing is sometimes slow and he can be a bit ponderous at times. Let's not forget that damn step before he passes. But he is the best option ahead of Murray.

The step before the pass is gone. Apparently Scheimt had Reddan and Boss work on this last season.

It still creeps into his game now and then but it has been largely eradicated. Tomás should just go back to hurling,Cork are a bit short on talent at the moment!

Stag-

Do you believe that TOL would be ebst vs Aus or Fra due to his physicallity at the first phase moves?

If so I really think we should see Reddan employed with such moves because they don't get used as much with Reddan at 9 and he can make a break too.

Thomond- yeah Reddan takes a step but TOL sometimes takes many many more.

Thomond wrote:It still creeps into his game now and then but it has been largely eradicated. Tomás should just go back to hurling,Cork are a bit short on talent at the moment!

What i can't understand is why the same hasn't been done with TOL. If he could pass to the same standard as reddan he would be starting

Reddan should start the important games (Oz, Italy, SA). TOL to start the other games. I reckon stringer might be on the bench for all the games (I prefer to see Stringer coming on to inject something into a game than the other 2)

Pete,I agree with you about TOL, I wanted him dropped for ages. A scrum half who is a poor passer isn't exactly ideal. His physicality is great and he is a brilliant defender but he can't do his primary job.

Thomond wrote:Pete,I agree with you about TOL, I wanted him dropped for ages. A scrum half who is a poor passer isn't exactly ideal. His physicality is great and he is a brilliant defender but he can't do his primary job.

That about sums him up.

Stag I think Australia is exactly the wrong game for him. If he has a role then it's against the likes of SA or NZ were we will likely have the minority of posession and will be under the cosh for long periods. Any game were we will get parity of possession or better and quick ball at the breakdown we do not want TOL at 9. The last thing you want with TOL is to have the ball...

I agree with Thomond though, he's a fine competitor and a good athlete but Rugby Union is not his sport.

Thomond wrote:Pete,I agree with you about TOL, I wanted him dropped for ages. A scrum half who is a poor passer isn't exactly ideal. His physicality is great and he is a brilliant defender but he can't do his primary job.

YES YES YES YES!!!!!

So glad someone has said this!!!!

Being physical and fast doesn't cover up the fact that he sweeps our backlines feet from underneath them.

With him at 9 we always lose momentum after a while due to the slow ball and therefore the set defences we try to attack.
We then cough up possession through errors, trying to hard or kicking it away.

ONLY when this has happened does TOL actually prove some worth in trying to get the ball back through his defence.

So.....
his defence wins us the ball.....which his attack then loses for us....but he gets it back due to his great defence......then we lose it again cos he can't pass and wrecks our offense......

pattern????????????????????????


Rodders and Thomond

Cork need some decent forwards so I kind of hope he leaves....

It has to be Reddan. He's the best of a bad bunch. And I'd order all our scrum halfs to stop box kicking when under pressure. Because they're all seemingly incapable of doing it well.

P.S. I didn't know there was a subsection?? I thought these articles had just stopped. I thought we agreed there was no point having subsections? I just want all the articles to appear in one rugby union section.

feckless-
if you want to look at the top of the rugby page there is a subsection called fantasy picks or something. The articles continued in there if you wanna have a look buddy

When was the back row picked?? Over the weekend? No point in picking it if there are only 5 lads voting!!

How was SOB left out???

Boyne wrote:
How was SOB left out???

No one from Leinster turned up to vote....

red_stag wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

red_stag wrote:Against Australia or France I'd say O'Leary. Reddan for the rest. For what its worth though Reddans performance against South Africa is the worst scrumhalf display I've seen since Bergamasco. Its been sticky forgotten.

Everyone has played bad games.
You need to give reddan credit for the games he played well in to.
As do many in relation to TOL also.

i do give reddan credit. I consider him our best scrumhalf and said as much. However if we play france or australia then oleary is a better pick in my opinion.

Tol is only our best choice if he comes back fit and on form. I don't think he was as bad as people are making out this year, his passing was that slow; he just wasn't making it too the rucks quick enough. If Tol can perform like he did against wales last year then I think he is worth a shot because his defence could be crucial against aus, he would also add some pace. But unless he proves that he is fully fit in the warm ups then he can't be risked. Also none of our scrumhalves should be allowed kick, except murray.

Reddan preformance against south africa was really awful, and I think you're being slightly insulting to bergamasco considering he isn't actually a sh, but he is still probably the best option which is quite depressing. If the pack is on the front foot and generates enough quick ball then hopefully we will be far enough ahead by the time reddan has his brainfart. Reddan will gift the other team 7points or make a bad decision that costs us the opportunity to score.

Stringer shouldn't be considered to start any game; his time at international level has come and gone. The game has moved on and it is no longer enough to just have a pass.

valjester wrote: he just wasn't making it too the rucks quick enough

He has no problem getting to the rucks. The problem his when he arrives he waits 5 minutes before deciding to:

a) box kick the ball away
b) throw a looping hospital pass to sexton
c) run into contact
d) get POC to set up a slow and static forward drive and start the whole process again 3 metres back from the previous ruck.

Don't get me wrong, all of this has it's uses if we're trying to grind out a tight arm wrestle but if we want to play some decent attacking rugby and open teams up then we certainly don't want TOL on the field.

roddersm wrote:

valjester wrote: he just wasn't making it too the rucks quick enough

He has no problem getting to the rucks. The problem his when he arrives he waits 5 minutes before deciding to:

a) box kick the ball away
b) throw a looping hospital pass to sexton
c) run into contact
d) get POC to set up a slow and static forward drive and start the whole process again 3 metres back from the previous ruck.

Don't get me wrong, all of this has it's uses if we're trying to grind out a tight arm wrestle but if we want to play some decent attacking rugby and open teams up then we certainly don't want TOL on the field.

His passing wan't actually that bad, it was just everything else. And yeah I completely agree that he took to long to decide what to do but his passing was decent for an Irish scrumhalf. Murray is the only Irish scrumhalf who can kick. Tol takes contact way too often and it does annoy me but if he can mix it up a bit he would be our best option. Its not going to happen but there might be a miracle. It is really quite depressing looking at the options as they are all going to shoot us in the foot at some stage.

Have TOL and Sexton ever performed well together? Is so, I can't remember it. They just don't have that understanding. Given that Sexton is our best 10 and ROG is such a great impact sub, I think Sexton will be starting the big games. If Sexton starts it makes sense to partner him with his provincial team mate.

Scrum half is a notably weak position in our squad. We should really go for our 10's natural partner over a guy who's been injured for much of the season. W could play TOL/ROG against Italy, but I hope it's Reddan/Sexton against Australia.

roddersm wrote:

Boyne wrote:
How was SOB left out???

No one from Leinster turned up to vote....

Well, with all the provincial bi bi bi BIAS on here, its not surprising.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Have TOL and Sexton ever performed well together? Is so, I can't remember it. They just don't have that understanding. Given that Sexton is our best 10 and ROG is such a great impact sub, I think Sexton will be starting the big games. If Sexton starts it makes sense to partner him with his provincial team mate.

Scrum half is a notably weak position in our squad. We should really go for our 10's natural partner over a guy who's been injured for much of the season. W could play TOL/ROG against Italy, but I hope it's Reddan/Sexton against Australia.

Why is it given that Sexton is our best 10

Tony Ward always gives MOTM to the OH on the winning team!

FYI

No. Tries scored by Ireland during 6Ns when either OH was playing:

Sexton 5 (total gametime of 240 mins).
O'Gara 6 (total gametime of 160 mins).

Sexton & O'Leary will start against Aus because their defensive game will be needed to deal with the Aus halfback pairing.

Boyne wrote:
Well, with all the provincial bi bi bi BIAS on here, its not surprising.

Speak for yourself Boyne....I voted for a WC Irish backrow of Faloon, Henry and Ferris purely on playing ability....

Val I agree TOL's passing isn't that bad, although it's not good either. My biggest problem with him is how long it takes for him to make a descision and the frequency with which his decisions turn out to be the wrong ones when he finally does make them.

When you have dangerous backs like BOD, D'arcy, Bowe, Earls, Sexton etc. and dynamic ball carriers like SOB, Heaslip, Ferris and Wallace you want to get them quick ball and space not have a scrum half who leaves us no option but to have forward pick and go's every time we have multi phase ball.

Sin é wrote:
Sexton & O'Leary will start against Aus because their defensive game will be needed to deal with the Aus halfback pairing.

Great plan Sin. That way we can all console ourselves with TOL's tackle count after Australia put us to the sword.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Sexton & O'Leary will start against Aus because their defensive game will be needed to deal with the Aus halfback pairing.

Great plan Sin. That way we can all console ourselves with TOL's tackle count after Australia put us to the sword.

They didn't put us to the sword the last time the Sexton/O'Leary played.

roddersm wrote:

Boyne wrote:
Well, with all the provincial bi bi bi BIAS on here, its not surprising.

Speak for yourself Boyne....I voted for a WC Irish backrow of Faloon, Henry and Ferris purely on playing ability....

Val I agree TOL's passing isn't that bad, although it's not good either. My biggest problem with him is how long it takes for him to make a descision and the frequency with which his decisions turn out to be the wrong ones when he finally does make them.

When you have dangerous backs like BOD, D'arcy, Bowe, Earls, Sexton etc. and dynamic ball carriers like SOB, Heaslip, Ferris and Wallace you want to get them quick ball and space not have a scrum half who leaves us no option but to have forward pick and go's every time we have multi phase ball.

Personally I'd give murray as much chance as possible of making the squad as he does everything much better than any other option but the fact that he has only started 8 games for munster will stand against him. I just don't think tol is as bad as is being made out. Since he broke his ankle against the scarlets before the lions tour he has a really bad run of injuries. If he played as well as he did against wales last year all the time he would be easily first choice as he mixed the play very well in that match. Scrumhalf is a huge problem for Ireland as it is one of the most important positions in rugby and all our options have their limitations. It is unlikely that our scrumhalves would make any other of the top nation's squads, nevermind teams.

valjester wrote:

red_stag wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

red_stag wrote:Against Australia or France I'd say O'Leary. Reddan for the rest. For what its worth though Reddans performance against South Africa is the worst scrumhalf display I've seen since Bergamasco. Its been sticky forgotten.

Everyone has played bad games.
You need to give reddan credit for the games he played well in to.
As do many in relation to TOL also.

i do give reddan credit. I consider him our best scrumhalf and said as much. However if we play france or australia then oleary is a better pick in my opinion.

Tol is only our best choice if he comes back fit and on form. I don't think he was as bad as people are making out this year, his passing was that slow; he just wasn't making it too the rucks quick enough. If Tol can perform like he did against wales last year then I think he is worth a shot because his defence could be crucial against aus, he would also add some pace. But unless he proves that he is fully fit in the warm ups then he can't be risked. Also none of our scrumhalves should be allowed kick, except murray.

Reddan preformance against south africa was really awful, and I think you're being slightly insulting to bergamasco considering he isn't actually a sh, but he is still probably the best option which is quite depressing. If the pack is on the front foot and generates enough quick ball then hopefully we will be far enough ahead by the time reddan has his brainfart. Reddan will gift the other team 7points or make a bad decision that costs us the opportunity to score.

Stringer shouldn't be considered to start any game; his time at international level has come and gone. The game has moved on and it is no longer enough to just have a pass.

Do people not realise that defence for a scrumhalf isn't as important as nearly every other trait??????

Do they not realise that of all 15 players on the pitch the 9 will normally have to defend the least.

I just plain and simply don't understand why Ireland need O'Leary's defence, why not use a 9 who can attack (and therefore keep the ball) so that we don't have to defend as much!

The only reason TOL's defence will be crucial against Aus is if we give them lots of ball. We have all agreed countless times that keeping the ball against the Australians is the best strategy why oh why would we play a 9 who will directly and/or indirectly give the ball to the Wallabies!?!?!?!

Does TOl not butcher enough try scoring opportunities by taking ages to make up his mind or passing to sexton via the floor!?

Sin é wrote:
They didn't put us to the sword the last time the Sexton/O'Leary played.

No we didn't beat them either.

Boyne-
The backrow, second row and front row articles didn't get many votes because they didn't go on the main page they were in the RWC/Fantasy Pick subsection. You can find them there easily enough

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
They didn't put us to the sword the last time the Sexton/O'Leary played.

No we didn't beat them either.

No, but Burgess & Cooper only got a try each. Considering the pack Ireland had, that wasn't bad going.

All of Australia's attack come from the halfbacks. Reddan gets turned over far too easy.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
The only reason TOL's defence will be crucial against Aus is if we give them lots of ball. We have all agreed countless times that keeping the ball against the Australians is the best strategy why oh why would we play a 9 who will directly and/or indirectly give the ball to the Wallabies!?!?!?!

There in lies the paradox with TOL. Apparantly his defence is a great asset to us but the reality is if that if TOL is on the field we're likely going to have to do more defending.

Therefore in theory he gives us a net gain of 0. However the reality is that the australian backs are far more dangerous in attack than TOL is competent in defence so playing TOL will more than likely result in a net loss.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
They didn't put us to the sword the last time the Sexton/O'Leary played.

No we didn't beat them either.

No, but Burgess & Cooper only got a try each. Considering the pack Ireland had, that wasn't bad going.

All of Australia's attack come from the halfbacks. Reddan gets turned over far too easy.

Ridiculous statement!

So if the ball gets kicked long Beale has to wait for genia and cooper to come back before he can run the ball yeah?
Australia have threats all over the backline.
Do you mean when Reddan runs the ball he gets turned over far too easily?? If that is what you are trying to say that's just silly.