606v2 picks the best Irish RWC 22: STARTING BACKROW

All, just putting this one on the main board for 24 hours -


First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.


The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

FRONT ROWS:

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

So far the team is
Healy-Best-Ross
O'Connell-O'Callaghan

This is going to be a toughie a lot of good options here lads! Keep it clean!

O'BRIEN: HCup player of the year, one of the best ballcarriers in the northern hemisphere at the moment. Has played across the backrow to HCup level and has played 6 and 7 at international level. Good hands and offload, great pace. Good defence and can turnover ball as seen in the 6n however can be indisciplined at times and conceed penalties. Not a great lineout option but a good link man. Beats tacklers regulary.
FERRIS: Huge presence at Ulster. One of the strongest men in the squad. Very effective rucker on our ball and also destructive counterrucker. Good lineout option due to heigth and an excellent defender and ball carrier. Intelligent and pacy and another good link player who's discipline is relatively good. has been out for a few months.
RYAN: Primarily a lock but is very athletic and an outstanding lineout option at the tail being 6'7" (I think). Good defence and a solid rucker however is somewhat inexperienced and slightly (not much) out of position at 6. Fairly well disciplined for one so inexperienced and seems to have the right temperment for big games.
WALLACE: Excellent ball carrier and leg drive. Primarily a 7 but can and has played 6 and 8 as well. Not a tradional 7 but Ireland and Munster have survived without one for a number of years, do we need one to excell? Excellent defence and does a lot of unseen work on the ground and at the breakdown, an average lineout option and well disciplined. Also vary pacey but acceleration not as good as it once was.
JENNINGS: Only tradional 7 in our 30 man squad. Recovering from a broken arm and aside from a few injuries has played well this season. Good leader and excellent on the floor. Can be quite indisciplined and is not a great lineout option. Good defence and link man and a very intelligent footballer at reading the game. Hasn't really delivered at international level as such.
HEASLIP: Excellent athletic and powerful no.8. Great defence and ball carrying. Wins a lot of ball on the ground and is good in the air too. Is a team leader however can give away too many penalties. Quick and has a good step can also carry direct and hard. Has been included in a huge number of teams of the tournament in the 6N, HCup and ML over the last number of years.


Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

Cheers
Pete

I went Ferris-SOB-Heaslip

ferris for his huge rucking, lineout and defensive work
sob for big carries and go forward ball as well as offloading and linking
heaslip for athleticism, defence, work on the floor, lineout

overall the balance is good but not great
I'd want this backrow to have a game or two in the warm ups and especially have SOB get gametime at 7, he has had some this year but would want him to have more.

Wallace off the bench for me to go hell for leather for 20/30mins

What happens if obrien wins at 6-7-8

For me its o'brien wallace heislip

D24-


If he does he get's the one he got the most votes for then the other 2 positions go to the 2 with the most votes in those positions

D24,

I'm the same. Heaslip starts at 8 every time for me. O'briens best position is 6. The really toss up is whether you put him at 7 and start ferris.

I've gone for wally at 7 because lets face it the guy is still playing out of his skin and i have question marks over the fitness of ferris

I think the best backrow we got has to be Ferris-SOB-Heaslip....

I think their attributes complement eachother the best.
To be Wallace and SOB are very very similar and I jsut think SOB is better. No offence to wally.

Cari is gonna come on here now and smack me one!

Ferris hasn't proved his fitness and I don't think SOB is a 7,all three are ballcarriers although Ferris does a lot of grunt work.

I've gone for Ferris - Wallace - Heaslip.

I've chosen Ferris and Heaslip for the same reasons as pete but I've gone for Wallace at 7 due to the fact that I think O'Brien is more effective at 6 and I also feel that he'd offer the most impact from the bench out of all the options. I wouldn't be in any way averse to seeing him even play the entire 2nd half for instance, he's a special player.

Pete its hard to say their abilities compliment each other the best when they haven't played any games together. Hopefully your compo will get a run out in the warm ups.
I admit it could be exciting but at the moment its a complete unknown.

For the record i don't like this new subsection craic.

caoimhincentre wrote:For the record i don't like this new subsection craic.

+ more than 1

These articles were getting way more views and replies before which created some great debate. Now people don't realise they're there at all. I thought that was the whole reason we'd voted to get rid of the subsections in the first place?

MMC wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:For the record i don't like this new subsection craic.

+ more than 1

These articles were getting way more views and replies before which created some great debate. Now people don't realise they're there at all. I thought that was the whole reason we'd voted to get rid of the subsections in the first place?

Yeah i agree. Kinda killed momentum a wee bit didn't it. Ah well.

Yeah I know the combo is completely untested I really hope it gets some quality time in the warm ups. Preferably 2 games or at elast 1 and a half.

I get that feeling too that SOB isn't quite at home at 7 but I think the three of them together balance eachother really well considering their attributes and styles. SOB does seem to wander a bit more when at 7 and I do think he is a better 6 and 8 (more 6) but I really want him in the starting XV.

The name got changed to fantasy picks aswell which was just very confusing

SOB has been the best player in ireland this year while ferris has been injured and even then not up to SOBs level
Agree 7 is his worst of the 3 positions

I expect him and wallace to play 8 in a game aswell

Yeah I can see that happening too, realistically if Leamy doesn't go SOB and Wallace will have to play 8 at some stage.

Yeah would quite like this to be moved back to the main page or at least have a note on the main page with a link here.

O'Brien-Wallace-Heaslip.

I just think that O'Brien has a bigger impact on the game at 6 rather than 7. We seen this in the HCup final, I know Jennings coming on had a big impact on the game but O'Briens ball carrying from really stood out in the second half. My only worry would be our lack of options in the line out.

I would love to have Ferris starting but he is still an injury worry and he's in need of some serious gametime. Any idea of how he's progressing? Will he be fit in time for the warm up games?

I'd stick with the three that went through the Six Nations together. They had just started to build up some momentum.

I won't be surprised if O'Brien plays at 8 against Russia.

I heard that he should be.Don't think he'd be in the squad if he wasn't as such.

Choosing between Ferris-Wallace and SOB is proving really difficult it seems.

Yeah MBT- I can see SOB having to play 8 that game. There's no one else really, maybe he and Heaslip will split the game between them.

D24tress wrote:The name got changed to fantasy picks aswell which was just very confusing

SOB has been the best player in ireland this year while ferris has been injured and even then not up to SOBs level
Agree 7 is his worst of the 3 positions

I expect him and wallace to play 8 in a game aswell

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Yeah I can see that happening too, realistically if Leamy doesn't go SOB and Wallace will have to play 8 at some stage.

Yeah would quite like this to be moved back to the main page or at least have a note on the main page with a link here.

I really hope wally doesn't play at 8, I don't think he is good enough at international level.

Ferris out in some immense displays before he got injured and he plays in a worse team than sob. Ferris against nz and argentina showed why he has to start for Ireland if fit, he puts in the type of tackles that no other Irish player does. Against the sh teams, Ferris will stand up and knock players like elsom and read backwards whereas other will just stop them.

Heaslip is nailed on at eight there is no other choice, at his best he is up there with read as the best in the world.

7 is the most difficult, sob was not at his most effective in the hec final until moved to 6, and he was quiet in the magners final. I'm not sure if he is a better 7 than wallace and I think the backrow may be slightly more balanced with wallace in it. It is a really hard decision to make and I'd probably go with sob but I wouldn't be disappointed if it was the other way around.

Wally is capable of playing 8 against russia no bother.

Yeah 7 is the toughest position. I believe that if Ferris is fit and firing and has done well in the warm ups he has got to play.

The man is a mamoth!

SOB vs Wallace is going to be seriously tough and I would argue that half a game each would work unless one of them is playing really well. But lets say Ferris is only having a mediocre game get SOB to 6 in the second half asap!

It depends on the fitness of Ferris and I'm not so confident about it. If we have to play South Africa, I'd have Ferris ahead of O'Brien at blindside but for the group games, I think O'Brien is the best option.

We haven't had a tie before in the voting...this could cause issues.

I really believe Ferris could ignite our team again. We really missed him for a lot of the 6N

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Wally is capable of playing 8 against russia no bother.

Yeah 7 is the toughest position. I believe that if Ferris is fit and firing and has done well in the warm ups he has got to play.

The man is a mamoth!

SOB vs Wallace is going to be seriously tough and I would argue that half a game each would work unless one of them is playing really well. But lets say Ferris is only having a mediocre game get SOB to 6 in the second half asap!

There is also the fact that I'm unsure if wally is capable of playing 80 minutes at international level, so does that mean you start him and get him to play like a maniac for 50 before unleashing sob to batter the opposition who will be beginning to tire. Or to you have him on the bench but run the risk of someone getting injured in the first 5 minutes and wally having to coming on and then not being able to last the full match and missing a tackle in the last minute.

Its a really tough decision but its tough because they are all good as opposed to scrumhalf where they are all hopeless.

MBTGOG wrote:It depends on the fitness of Ferris and I'm not so confident about it. If we have to play South Africa, I'd have Ferris ahead of O'Brien at blindside but for the group games, I think O'Brien is the best option.

Ferris will be fit, the only problem will be keeping him fit. He rarely seems to get injured in matches, besides the grandslam match when he broke a finger and the aironi game, I think most of his injuries have come in training/getting off buses.

I think SOB would be more explosive off the bench than Wally. I think SOB coming on after 45/55 mins would be the last thing a whole load of tired lads would want to see.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think SOB would be more explosive off the bench than Wally. I think SOB coming on after 45/55 mins would be the last thing a whole load of tired lads would want to see.

Yeah sob is definitely the best sub option because of what you say and he covers everywhere. It is the same with earls, he is the best sub option for 22. But that doesn't mean you put them on the bench. Earls should start, and sob probably should as well but he is in such a competitive postition. Normally if you had a guy who can play three positions, he would find a place in the team but he is up against three brilliant players so he might miss out. Its madness really.

Ferris will be fit, the only problem will be keeping him fit

Yes, my point exactly.

SOB and 1f are inseperable so i was thinking
why not just start one of them at scrum half

[quote="D24tress"]SOB and 1f are inseperable so i was thinking
why not just start one of them at scrum half [/quote]


SOB just pulled ahead again

This isn't meant as an attack, but what does Wallace give than SOB does not at 7?

Just watch the two of them play and you'll know what. You can write down that O'Brien is a more destructive ball carrier and is decent in defence but it's the nuances and intricacies of the position that Wallace is far better at.

Can you be more specific MBT?
I do think 7 is SOB's worst position of the 3.

Ferris was immense in the autumn internationals and it was he and heaslip that really stood up to new zealand.

If you want real balance in the backrow then I'd say Heaslip, Jennings and either Ferris/SOB. But Jennings won't be starting the big games (will he start a single game? or just hold a tackle bag in warm ups).

He could easily start against USA and will start against Russia.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:He could easily start against USA and will start against Russia.

Actually, my gut reaction is he won't make the squad. I think Kidney will consider our tight five to be responsible for the traditional role of the 7 and bring Leamy as cover for the injury prone Ferris.

SOB, Ryan and to an extent Wallace cover Ferris.

Leamy wouldn't add anything to our 6 backrow where as jennings brings something different.
In my opinoin anyways.

Who'd you vote for Notch?

O’Brien won MOTM awards in the Heineken cup at 6,7 and 8. The point is that O’Brien can do what he does best from any position in the backrow, the position is not the issue, the issue is who is playing with him. O’Brien – Heaslip – Jennings is the best balanced backrow available to us. Wallace and Ferris are top quality players but the Leinster backrow has synergy. I don’t for a second think that Dekkie would pick this team though.

As an aside, just saw a pic tweeted by the IRFU (http://yfrog.com/kick1xmj). TOL and Fitzgerald are both in it. I wonder is there something to read into there wrt the squad selection.

MMC wrote:As an aside, just saw a pic tweeted by the IRFU (http://yfrog.com/kick1xmj). TOL and Fitzgerald are both in it. I wonder is there something to read into there wrt the squad selection.

Ah rudey poo!!!!

Mickado wrote:O’Brien won MOTM awards in the Heineken cup at 6,7 and 8. The point is that O’Brien can do what he does best from any position in the backrow, the position is not the issue, the issue is who is playing with him. O’Brien – Heaslip – Jennings is the best balanced backrow available to us. Wallace and Ferris are top quality players but the Leinster backrow has synergy. I don’t for a second think that Dekkie would pick this team though.

maybe if it was an all munster backrow

As such the backrow is

6 O'Brien
7 Wallace
8 Heaslip

Mickado wrote:O’Brien won MOTM awards in the Heineken cup at 6,7 and 8. The point is that O’Brien can do what he does best from any position in the backrow, the position is not the issue, the issue is who is playing with him. O’Brien – Heaslip – Jennings is the best balanced backrow available to us. Wallace and Ferris are top quality players but the Leinster backrow has synergy. I don’t for a second think that Dekkie would pick this team though.

That's because it would be stupid and deccie isn't stupid. Jennings isn't international class, wallace is and ferris is world class when fit.

Mick there is more to a pack than a backrow. Leinster have Strauss at hooker. We have Best at hooker. Leinster use Cullen and Hines who are different to O'Connell and O'Callaghan. I think that Jennings isn't good enough for the starting shirt but I'd have him with the squad for the tour.

We don't need Jennings in the same way Leinster need Jennings. We have a second row and a hooker who compete well on the floor, Leinster don't. But we will lose a lot of physicality and pace if we pick Jennings.

I'd have O'Brien on the bench if Ferris is fit. He hasn't convinced me he's well-rounded enough at the breakdown and we have other good ball carriers. I think O'Brien is the perfect impact sub.

[quote="Notch"]I'd have O'Brien on the bench if Ferris is fit. He hasn't convinced me he's well-rounded enough at the breakdown and we have other good ball carriers. I think O'Brien is the perfect impact sub.[/quote]

Thats i good point I still think SOB shades it but i wont be complaning if 1f starts, its some choice to have

Heaslip has to start at 8 but beyond that I'd be happy with any 2 from 3 out of Ferris, O'Brien and Wallace. In fact I wouldn't lose any sleep to see Jennings in there either as I think he has been fantastic for Leinster.

That said I really hope to see Heaslip, Ferris and O'Brien on the field at the same time as I think if Ferris can stay fit then, with no disrespect to the amazing Wallace and Jennings, that has the potential to be by far our best back row.

I agree Rodders I think that backrow could be sick. SOB will need to improve at 7 IMO for that to work on not get lost in a game like he has at 7 sometimes.

Sorry folks, but Jennings is not going to make the world cup squad, let alone starting. Jennings & Mick O'Driscoll have a similar standing with regard to their club & country - both are highly rated by their clubs, but are real injury emergency cover for country.

The last time Jennings played (and started) for Ireland was against Australia 13 months ago when there was a casualty crisis and Niall Ronan was the standout Irish flanker that day - the competition wasn't great. His previous game (the ABs) he came on for John Muldoon when he got injured.

Since then, I think he was in the match day 22 once (and was the only player not used).

And now he is trying to come back from an injury!

Yeah, I have to agree I really can't see Kidney taking Jennings. He's never seen a groundhog 7 as being something we need in a tactical sense.

I think Jennings probably deserves it more, but Leamy is a better fit for the style of game we want to play.

As an Englishman I dread for us to go up against an Irish backrow of 6. Ferris 7. SOB 8. Heaslip, but can't pick Ferris due to lack of game time this season, so went for SOB Wallace and Heaslip.

Yeah Sam, I'd love if that backrow could be let off the leash if Ferris is fit! SOB does however seem to play worse at 7 than at 6 or 8.

The crucial difference between Jennings and Mick O’Driscoll is that Jennings is a starter for Leinster, he was out injured and Kevin McLaughlin played himself into the team which is fair enough but Jennings is one of the first names on the teamsheet. O’Driscoll is not, and never was a starter for Munster (outside of injuries).

Sin, all the stats about when he has last played for Ireland go to prove is that he’s shunned at international level, we already knew that.