England Second Rows & Croft

I was thinking about englands back row options, and could help thinking that our lack of real genuine lineout experts in the Second Rows are dictating the back row to a degree..ie the selection of Croft.

I appreciate around the park and in the tight they are excellent, but what do you think of Lawes and Palmers lineout skills with regards to their competitors abilities.
Croft has both Critics and champions...some say his work in the tight is not good enough for a 6...yet others highlight that his lineout work is essential.

Whats your opinion of the whole situation.

Is Croft better than simply a excellent/essential lineout option...or are there better player who could come in if the SR had a stronger lineout skill...ie Would a backrow of say
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Easter

be better in more needy areas of the park?

I don't think that Lawes and Palmer gives you a weak lineout, certainly not to the extent that you'd lose some grunt by trying to shoe-horn Croft into the boiler room. Why not leave him predominantly as your tail lineout operator on your own ball, and put him at the front on oppo ball, cos from there he can disrupt given how high he can get?

Why are people in such a hurry to drop Croft from 6 - he's class, and to say he isn't a breakdown operator is a misconception?

If there's a back row player that should be under threat, it should be Moody, under threat from both Wood and Haskell.

Palmer was one of the top lineout operators in the 6 Nations. Easter is a great tail jumper, both Croft and Wood jump, and Lawes is a big target man at the front. England's line-out is a strength, not a weakness.

+1

Dammit fES, why did you have to say that so much more eloquently than moi?!?!

I agree with what's been said by both of you and for the Record my England back 3 would be Croft, Le Hasque and Narraway, but I can't see Johnno dropping Moody.....



I left Croft out of the picks I made above due to trying to balance the backrow. Something England have not done yet.

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I wouldn't have Haskell near my England team or club side.

Maybe as a waterboy but no more.

He is a good ball carrier but is a bit one dimensional. He is like the English Andy Powell in my opinion.

I don't really see the 2nd row as a problem as long as Shaw isn't picked at all. Lawes,Palmer and Deacon would all do a good job.

No 8 is a big problem. Easter is the best we have but worse than all of the other 6 nations' no 8s bar Ryan Jones.

Wouldn't you rather have Heaslip,Harinorduquoy,Beattie or Parisse in the England side? I know I would!

6 and 7s isn't a problem - it should be a mixed combo of Croft,Robshaw or Wood.

England should not touch Waldrom and Fourie with a bargepole.

This would leave the pack looking something like

4.Lawes
5.Palmer
6.Croft
7.Wood/Robshaw
8.Easter

Lawes plays like an extra 6 in the old school mould and Croft is far tougher and gritty then people give him credit for, his work on the floor is more akin to 7's in that he gets there so quickly to disrupt ball.

Our biggest problem is that none of our backrowers are big fast units with good hands and brains, Heaslip, harinordique, SOB et al are not only powerful and skilled but smart operators. While our guys are:

Moody- Smart but not powerful or quick, average link play.
Easter- Smart and powerful, good hands but not quick.
Haskell- Powerful and quick but not smart, haven't seen him pass.
Croft- Quick, smart and good hands not powerful.

To be honest if he wasn't so tall and brilliant at lock i'd seriously be looking at Lawes at 8, instead i'd like to see a backrow of:

Croft
Haskell
Narroway

Robshaw/Guest on the bench

With our first choice locks doing a lot of the breakdown pilfering and Crofts skills there as well, we wont need a true 7 so what we do need is more power, smarts and hands. I think that backrow would play in a similar style to SA's rather then NZ's but it could be effective.

The backrow was exposed as a weakness by Scotland in the 6N especially at the breakdown

Wasn't that the game where Croft came off the bench to save the day?

Injuries have led to some patchy form by Croft but at the end of last season he seemed to be getting back to his best. He was rampant against Bath and I just can't see how the English backrow would be better without him. His pace and power make him an asset in supporting the backs and his covering tackles are awesome. He does his fair share of the graft and offer us a quality jumper into the mix as well.

Agree with Sam completely.

Croft has had injury issues this year but the no.1 thing to remember is that he went on the Lions tour with much the same being said about him - the 'lightweight/ no good on the ground' stuff and yet he proved everyone wrong and put in some standout performances. There are better units in some areas but hes good enough there and his pace and some of his skills are right out of the top drawer

Also a quick word about Easter. He isnt the fastest and his captaincy makes you realise why Moody is still important - but his work rate is just amazing. His all round stats are always good and some of the numbers are a lot higher than for the show ponies.

lostinwales wrote:Agree with Sam completely.

Croft has had injury issues this year but the no.1 thing to remember is that he went on the Lions tour with much the same being said about him - the 'lightweight/ no good on the ground' stuff and yet he proved everyone wrong and put in some standout performances. There are better units in some areas but hes good enough there and his pace and some of his skills are right out of the top drawer

Also a quick word about Easter. He isnt the fastest and his captaincy makes you realise why Moody is still important - but his work rate is just amazing. His all round stats are always good and some of the numbers are a lot higher than for the show ponies.

Yes Easter is a grafter which is fine if you have the talent at 6 & 7 but do we have the talent to allow Easter to be an old school 8? Or does the backrow need a dynamic 8 allowing an industrious grafting 7? Right now we seem to have grafters at 7&8 and neither have that shazam that the best backrowers who really dominate a game do.

And i don't think anyone wants to see Croft removed. If they do they're crazy.

Right now we seem to have grafters at 7&8 and neither have that shazam that the best backrowers who really dominate a game do..

Moody is a bit of a none typical player though. You describe him as a grafter but that's not quite right. He does a lot away from the breakdown, he joins in moves and supports runners like a proper 7 and no one hounds down fly halfs like Mad Dog. He might not bring much 'shazzam' to the party but we don't really have any players that do, which is why I think Johnno has brought in Fourie and Waldrom in the hope they might offer some sparkle.

I know what you're saying and to be honest i imagine Moody will play as of all our captains over the last couple of years he's easily been the best which is useful in it's self. I just worry that we're falling behind here with the quality of players in the backrow, some of it may just be depression because of the Ireland match though.

I can't see Fourie bringing much to the party, do you think Waldrom will step up if given the chance at international level?

if only Tom Reese wasn't made from balsa wood, Haskell had carried with the form he started with for Wasps and Narroway had been given more chances since '08, would things be very different?

I think Croft is best in the boiler room but since England have a strong second row It's a hard position to muscle into and I feel he has been shifted to 6 by default. As Yappy said dropping Croft would be crazy equally dropping Palmer or Lawes would be crazy too. This means if you want Croft playing you need to have him in the backrow.

Croft is good on the ground perhaps he could be better suited to the role at 7?


For me a blind side has to be a chopper, making the majority of tackles freeing up the 7 to do the digging at the breakdown. Turn Over Ball seems to be a speciality of Croft, his pace is a contributing factor on that but if he is on the Blindside his turn over effectiveness although still good is slightly diminished by a slightly later arrival.

The real problem for me with England's backrow is Easter at 8 but currently no one has forced themselves into the line up as an alternative. He's a good player but I just don't think he turns up against the most physical sides which throws the backrow out of balance.

Croft is far too key a player for England not to pick - I think the good work he does at the breakdown is overlooked because he gives so much in the open field and in attack which gives an impression that he isn't doing much else. I also think he and Lawes are central to how Johnson wants England to play (I've mentioned this in previous posts). We've got physical but limited centres but with Lawes and Croft in the team they go some way to filling in for them in attack - both tries against Australia came from passes by those two when we beat them in the AIs

Yeah im not saying DROP croft.....im merely trying to assess where we are with our back five.

Depends on what game plan and what opposition Geordie. I'd be tempted to change whoever is in the 4 shirt (Deacon/Lawes) and the sub backrower (Haskell/Waldrom/Robshaw/Wood) based on who we are playing and what their stregnths are. For the Aussies say I'd probabley plump for Deacon at 4 so we can control the lineout and savage their scrum and as the game wears on and they're counter attacking becomes more desperate I'd bring on Waldrom and Lawes to take the fight to them. Against the Saffas I'd have Lawes in there because his big hits will be required in defence and Deacon can come on and offer set piece stability should we need it with Wood or Robshaw on the bench to offer more defensively focussed reinforcements. You get my drift.

I think Crofts ability in the tight is massively underrated and his lineout work is superb. I do accept he may not be the most physical of blindsides but he does support the ball carrier very well and is first to the ruck on many occasions so therefore doesn't need to have the grunt that other blindsides have. I think anyone who doubts his ability to cope physically should look at the lions tour where he carried and rucked effectively against the most physical and best side in the world at the time.

So for me Croft is a definite at 6 and I would like to see Wood at 7 but I think MJ will definitely pick Moody as captain and 7. Lawes and Palmer are competent lineout jumpers and I think have improved at that facet of the game. They should be nailed on starters with their recent performances for England.

Manu's Boxing Coach-

Your name made me burst out laughing in work, good stuff sir!

I think Croft is best in the boiler room but since England have a strong second row It's a hard position to muscle into and I feel he has been shifted to 6 by default.

He came through at 6 for Tigers (no mean feat given that the incumbant backrow was Moody/Jennings/Corry) and has nearly always played there (except during second row injury crisises). He could pass for an athletic second rower but his ability to leave the side of the scrum at speed and track down the opposition as they attack is a real strength. Why hide him and his pace in the second row?

I can't see Fourie bringing much to the party, do you think Waldrom will step up if given the chance at international level?

Impetus from the bench is all I can see either bringing to the England side and only in the right conditions. Neither are going to be a continued threat to the test team but they can do a job now so one of the two may well go. Waldrom would bring that penetration our centres sometimes struggle to muster.

Many have suggested that
6 Croft
7 Wood

on the flanks is not a nice balance.

I actually think it is...and whilst both may be similar in stature, i think they do have a slightly different skills set...and would compliment each other nicely.

I’m a big fan of Easter, but times are changing, to my mind he is on the way out. This World Cup could well be the last hurrah. What does he bring to the table? He is an intelligent player and has good control at the base of the scrum he is also good at grinding out the hard yards when things get stodgy.

What doesn’t he have? That explosiveness that will carry his team over the gain line quickly and allow his team-mates to recycle the ball before the defence is set. In attacking terms I think this is the problem with the back row in general for England, we have nobody to (borrowing a rugby league term) win the collisions. The players are too often stopped on the gainline and pushed back. The exception is probably Haskell, but he just doesn't seem an intelligent enough player to be the no.8 we need.

I've asked it before, can we transplant Nick Easter’s brain into brand Hasks body?

Not enough weight surely? the flankers do have to push in the scrum (well when the ref is keeping an eye on them) and i can't see croft & Wood being able to add enough power there, especially if we dont have a bulky lock like Deacon in.

Am i the only one who thought Wood was a fairly good cover option in the 6 nations but is really not a starting international flanker at the moment? He didn't do anything to really make me sit up and think "blimey we need to drop moody and Haskell and get this guy in there!" like some others seem to think.

Haskell to me seemed to do a lot better although he still had silly moments, but then no more then any other player in that pack. He seems to be maturing and expanding his game nicely as he hits his peak years. If any one saw him play in the AAC final they'll see just how good he can be in big games.

I hope Haskell goes to Wasps and plays at 8, sometimes players need to be beaten into the position that's best for them even if they do not realise it is at the time (think Foden) and Haskell for me needs to be shown the light at no8.

Although he's probably now off on the gravy train to Japan then the sup15 and then god only knows where.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Many have suggested that
6 Croft
7 Wood

on the flanks is not a nice balance.

I actually think it is...and whilst both may be similar in stature, i think they do have a slightly different skills set...and would compliment each other nicely.

I completely agree Wood showed himself to be a very good grafter in the tight during the 6N and Croft could play more in the loose using his pace. They are also both very good in the lineout with Wood at the back and Croft at the front of the lineout with Lawes and Palmer roaming in the middle. I think that would make a very strong lineout.

yappysnap wrote:Not enough weight surely? the flankers do have to push in the scrum (well when the ref is keeping an eye on them) and i can't see croft & Wood being able to add enough power there, especially if we dont have a bulky lock like Deacon in.

Am i the only one who thought Wood was a fairly good cover option in the 6 nations but is really not a starting international flanker at the moment? He didn't do anything to really make me sit up and think "blimey we need to drop moody and Haskell and get this guy in there!" like some others seem to think.

Haskell to me seemed to do a lot better although he still had silly moments, but then no more then any other player in that pack. He seems to be maturing and expanding his game nicely as he hits his peak years. If any one saw him play in the AAC final they'll see just how good he can be in big games.

On the evidence of the Six Nations I'd have Wood in ahead of Croft at the moment as a number 6. Actually I'd have them both in the 22 with whoever is playing better starting.

As I said above, surely Moody is more at risk from Wood than Croft? Moody has shown little form this season, and his body looks like it could break at any time. Croft gives the England pack that extra dimension in terms of ground coverage and pace (that most sides look for from their number 8).

I know Moody is captain and will play, but I'd say Croft, Wood and Easter with Haskell on the bench would work well, especially with an athletic lock combination like Lawes and Palmer.

If Moody doesn't play who would captain? Unless we have Tindall as captain we would be going in to the WC with a new 7&13 and a new captain, which may not be the best thing.

They may not be the best players but the world cup is so close now that MJ will probably just go with them and try to make the best of a bad situation.

I'm sure that's right, Moody will captain the side and play, no doubt.

I just think in a straight choice between him and Wood at 7, based on performances this season, you'd choose Wood as a player.

I think Wood is now the better player than Moody but the team is badly lacking in leaders at the moment and I think he makes a real difference there which means he's pretty important for the WC. After I would look to ease Wood into the side ahead of him and hope that other players will step up as leaders (but I think they've not done so far, worryingly).

"we would be going in to the WC with a new 7&13 and a new captain"

But Yappy, with regards to 7, Wood proved that he can take on a world class back row like Irelands in full pelt...and come out standing proud, when the rest of the England pack pretty much gave up.
Wood proved he can be the ballwinning flanker we have been looking for.

If we need a captain (ill get slated for this) then go with Hartley. Young lad, pretty much guarenteed his spot for the long term and captaining his side very well in the HC.

I accept we need experience...but sometimes its better to go for the best player and i just feel Moody does not offer that on the pitch anymore.

With regards to 8...yes i have always been a big Easter fan aswell...but maybe now we need to look elsewhere. If Haskell can make it at 8 then brilliant...but ill wait and see.

I agree with Hartley as a long-term captain, and would look to give him the captaincy in one of the warm-ups and possibly one of the pool games against Georgia or Romania (if we are to give Moody and Tindall a rest, would we lose too much if we put Wood and Tuilagi in for those two?)

After the World Cup, a forward pack of:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley (C)
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Croft
7. Wood
8. Easter

16. Thompson
17. Corbisiero
18. Deacon
19. Crane

That's what I'd go with, with Palmer unavailable (playing in France) and Easter and possibly Deacon to be phased out in the 2012 season. We can then bring Haskell back into the squad and onto the bench when he returns from his sabbatical year, and Kitchener in for Deacon.

But for the World Cup, I wouldn't look for too many changes, especially in the big games. Unless Wood completely outshines Moody in the games he plays, I would probably stick with Mad Dog for this one.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If we need a captain (ill get slated for this) then go with Hartley. Young lad, pretty much guarenteed his spot for the long term and captaining his side very well in the HC.

The problem I have with that is though Hartley has done well at Saints, when England needed a leader during the 6N this season he didn't step up (much like the rest of the side to be honest), which in my opinion shows he's not ready to be an international captain yet.

robbo277 wrote:After the World Cup, a forward pack of:

1. Stevens
2. Hartley (C)
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Croft
7. Wood
8. Easter

16. Thompson
17. Corbisiero
18. Deacon
19. Crane

the only problem I have with that is picking two players who can only really play No. 8 in that line up - if Wood or Croft got injured then there'd be a real issue. I'd probably go for Robshaw for the bench spot.

though having said that I do think Easter needs to be eased out the side post WC and I think it is a toss up between Stephens and Corbisiero

If Croft or Wood got injured I would probably bring on Deacon, move Lawes to 6 and the other flanker to 7. It's not ideal, and maybe having 2 back row (with Croft covering second row) would be better, but I do think we need to give a number 8 some gametime, and off-the-bench is the best way to do it in my opinion. I wouldn't want to just throw Crane or Narraway into the first team.

Stevens and Corbs is a close one, initially had them the other way round but decided to change it for some reason. Not 100% why, just a feeling. Although Stevens might have more impact coming off the bench.

If Moody doesn't play who would captain? Unless we have Tindall as captain we would be going in to the WC with a new 7&13 and a new captain, which may not be the best thing.

Easter has previously captained the England first team and looks to be generally quite calm and collected. After that there's a few 8s with captaincy experience in Crane and Narraway. I'm not sure Hartley is that great a captain, seems to moan at the ref to much and doesn't keep his cool. The best captains are the ones that always seem calm and gently convey their points without annoying the ref.

I think it is a toss up between Stevens and Corbisiero.

I'm not sure about including both in a 22 man squad. Stevens isn't the greatest scrummager at 3 but solid at 1. Corbisiero looks a liability at 3 but holds his own at 1. Either at loosehead with the powerful scrummager of Cole at three is fine but if Cole got injured and we had Corbs and Stevens I'd worry about them getting chewed up by better scrummagers. Would rather have one of Corbs or Stevens starting and then PDJ or Wilson on the bench as they can in theory cover both sides (Wilson has previously for England) and both are far better in the scrum but still mobile enough so we don't lose anything around the park.

Hi all, new to these forums but have been following for a while now.

Have to say that I agree that the current balance of the England back row isn't right. Although I think Croft an Moody are excellent rugby players, they don't quite fit the mould of what I would want in a back row.

I think the back row should be selected on their ability to carry the game to the opposition, both in attack and defence. Although they both make their tackles and hit their rucks, no disputing that, they don't really dominate in this area often making more passive tackles on the gain line as opposed to the hard hits way beyond it, just look at the AIs.

Also their ball carrying ability in and around the guard/10/12 channel doesn't have the same impact that you would expect of an international 6/7, granted croft tends to hang out in the wider channels to offer support their buts to me thats just hiding from your responsibiliies for other players to take the burden.

Modern, successful back rows are built for physicality and confrontation. You only have to look at the southern hemisphere sides and Irelands back rows to see that. Having a confrontational pack, with the attitude to dominate sets the tone for your side and as such I wouldn't have Corft or Moody in the starting 15 (I know Moody brings the confrontation but he lacks the physicality needed in my opinion).

Taking this into account then the 6 and 7 I would be looking at are Wood and Robshaw. Both have a physicality and engine about them that no other 6/7 can mach in England, with both more than happy to provide the dog up front and take the game to the opposition. Both are "in your face" defenders, and very good tacklers. I doubt that therre would be many back rows in the Jeff who have hit more rucks than they did last season and they are strong ball carriers. Wood has proven this for England in the 6Ns and Robshaw has done it time and time again for Quins.

The only issue then is who to compliment them at 8? I don't think Easter is the right answer although he's the only option really at the moment. I would personally prefer a big physical ball carrier like Haskell although I doubt he has the complete skill set to play 8 at that level.

I always thought Croft looked like good captaincy material, don't really know why he just seems like the natural choice.

Other then him i'd be happy to go with Hartley, yes he has a bit of a mouth on him but he's done a good job at Saints although he is targetted for winding up in every game his self control is a lot better.

I can't see Crane being brought in after the WC he seems to be out of favour, i actually think MJ agrees we need a dynamic 8, hence why ages ago he tried Crane, Narroway and DWS there, sadly they didn't work out for various reasons but Narroway is still in the Saxons at least, he'll probably be the next 8 post WC unless Guest or some one else steps up.

but Narroway is still in the Saxons at least

As opposed to Crane who captained them at the Churchill Cup?

Crane has had recurring injury problems all season I don't think MJ would have included him on that basis. Narraway's back injury seemed to end his hopes of attending the RWC as well. Johnno not keen to take possible sick notes at 8.

Both are "in your face" defenders

Moody is the probabley the most 'in your face' player going. He'ss through himself at anyone remotely near the ball.

I thought Crane didn't actually get any game time and Narroway captained the last Saxons team?

Moody is the probabley the most 'in your face' player going. He'ss through himself at anyone remotely near the ball.

Like i said, Moody is a very confrontational player however he does lack the physicality required for an international backrow. In the autumn Moody did put himself about and made his tackles but never dominated the opposition and as a result their forwards would make easy yards when running at him. The back row were found out in the autumn to be the weak link in the pack, and its a shame because there is real quality, and depth, in the tight five. During the 6Ns, with no Croft or Moody, the backrow improved in two areas, they looked very strong in the tackle and had strong ball carriers, however still suffered at the breakdown as the tournament progressed.

This is where I think bringing in a player like Robshaw will keep the tackle and ball carrying ability strong but add to the effectiveness of the backrow at the breakdown.

I thought Crane didn't actually get any game time and Narroway captained the last Saxons team?.

Crane played in the first Churchill Cup game (as captain), Narraway was supposed to come in for the second one (as captain) but a niggling back injury forced him out of the whole thing. Crane had a damaged bone in his foot that required surgery (minor stuff) post Churchill Cup which was why he was only supposed to play two games and why the two of them would share the captaincy.

Am i thinking of last years where Narroway was captain then? Or maybe the 6N's?

Possibley the 6N. I think Crane was injured then as well. I'd say that both are in the frame to replace Easter long term but I think Johnno didn't feel that their injury situations were worth the risk. Haskell can cover and Waldrom is there as an experiment.

Problem with Easter is that hes actually a good player. He is very important to the way England play. He tends to be at the middle of everything. His stats on carries and offloads are amongst the top 3 in the 6N. He is also a useful line out operator and is one of those guys who always tends to be where the ball is. He lacks pace and I am not sure if its just unlucky or no but I am no fan at all of his captaincy abilities, but thats it. He is also seemingly very durable and consistent.

I'd love to see someone like Narraway come through but until that happens we are not doing so badly.

I am also stunned that there are still people willing to drop Croft for some journeyman just because, despite being a very successful Lion and all that, he somehow doesnt quite fit the mold of what they want in a no.6.

jamesandimac wrote: During the 6Ns, with no Croft or Moody, the backrow improved in two areas, they looked very strong in the tackle and had strong ball carriers, however still suffered at the breakdown as the tournament progressed.

Against France and Scotland our backrow, Wood aside, struggled for much of the game... then there was the Ireland match - watching Haskell be so completely useless was a source of massive fustration, Easter at least had the decency to spare me that by seeming to not actually bother to come out to play (I really didn't notice him once during that game, he could have been in the dressing room for all the impact he had).
With out Croft and Moody the backrow struggled - Wood is the only one who comes out of the final three 6Ns games with any credit.