England Second Rows for the EPS

With the fairly poor show that was the world cup now over, and the RFU's policy coming into play regarding picking only home based players, what do you all think of the second row situation for the upcoming EPS? My concern is that international experience and/or talent in the engine room is looking a bit thin. That's not to mention the hooker situation with Thommo's retirement.

So far if we accept that Palmer and Shaw are now over and out, we are only left with Deacon and Lawes making up the second row situation. I believe there needs to be four in the EPS? I've never been a great fan of Deacon although his Six Nations was pretty reasonable; Lawes always looks like he'll make a superb player but is still in need of some refining; then who...?

The Options:

Botha - As close as a like for like replacement for Shaw as there is, but to my mind not quite of international standard and we're back to the old EQ debate again.

Skivington - Hasn't been playing badly for Tigers since back from injury but again is he really up to the required level? Good lineout forward though.

Borthwick - A serious regression if he's included in my opinion, excellent lineout but as effective going forward as the proverbial paper bag.

Parling - Injured currently, perhaps serious, but has looked excellent since coming back at the start of the season. He is though 28 now and is he really an option to take us through to the world cup?

Kitchener - Is he injured? Made a few appearances for Tigers at the start of the season and didn't impress Cockerill certainly.

Kennedy - Again good lineout forward, some questionmarks over his work around the field, not a great carrier.

Attwood - Looked better each week at Bath and scored a great try against London Irish in the Jeff. Does he do enough of the grunt though?

Anyone else lurking around, any young talent coming through the ranks? Savage at Gloucester, but he is young. Be interesting to know what everyone thinks as to this key element of England's future.

Kitchener is struggling to get game time at Tigers as far as I know- he isn't injured. Hopefully Cockers will know how to get the best out of him soon, he's a great talent.
Skivs has looked pretty good when I've seen him play. Now that Parling's out, he could really try and cement a spot. Also like the look of Attwood.
One to keep an eye on also is Matthew Garvey at London Irish. He's a real prospect and has started the season very well indeed.

Agree with bluestone. Garvey looked very good for London Irish vs Sarries.

The Quins fans on these boards have been shouting out from the roof tops about Robson.

Botha has been in poor form. Shouldn't be considered. Borthwick should only be considered if no other expert lineout operators are in the mix.

The others hardly inspire confidence.

Yes Robson I suppose should be in the mix, offers both lineout experience and a bit of leadership I suppose. But how old is he now?

George Robson is 26.

Nick Kennedy will be relatively happy to see MJ go, he is a very very good player, unfortunately players seem to get pigeon holed as one thing early on in thier career eg. great line out opeator...no grunt, Kennedy however has been working on his around the field stuff and has put on bulk and now offers alot going forward as well as being one of the best best line out forwards in europe............. has been overlooked too long and is a class act

Robson has been the standout lock in the AP for me, speaking as a neutral

I agree about Matt Garvey, he is big, strong, abrasive and surprisingly quick. He made a great run against Sarries at the weekend. His work rate also seems good.

I'd have

Courtney Lawes
Matt Garvey
Tom Palmer (If available)/ George Robson (I'd be tempted to pick Robson ahead of him anyway)
Dave Attwood

I would have picked Parling, such a pain that he is injured. I wouldn't be surprised if Deacon is picked though...

Its a pity Palmers in France really, England could have done with him for the short term.
Lawes and Attwood in togther? How long before one gets banned?

Robson seems like a good option.

Isn't Palmer eligible cos he's still on a contract that was signed before the edict 'banning' non-England based players?

Lawes
Attwood
Robson
Kennedy

Garvey looks ancient but he is only 24 too!

beshocked wrote:Garvey looks ancient but he is only 24 too!

You're kidding? He looks about 40 (then again so did Dan Cole when he was playing for the U20

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its a pity Palmers in France really, England could have done with him for the short term.
Lawes and Attwood in togther? How long before one gets banned?

Robson seems like a good option.

To be fair to Attwood, although he has a reputation, he’s never had a yellow card in his Premiership career and only two in all other competitions. I know he didn't cover himself in glory with the stamp that got him banned last year, but by in large I think that was quite out of character.

Lawes is the same, he averages about one yellow card a season in all competitions and he’s never had one for England. I personally think the ban in the world cup was unwarranted too.

Cole looks about a 1000 years old.

I think AsLong is right, the ban on foreign players doesn't apply to those that had signed contracts with release dates prior to the RFU announcement.

I'd be quite happy for Palmer (32) or Deacon (31) to stick around for a season, but my preferred 4 going forward would be:

4. Lawes
5. Robson
18. Parling
Attwood

Robson
Lawes
Attwood
Hudson

With Garvey, Launchberry, Slater & Kitchener in the Saxons.

Parling is injured, Palmer cannot be picked, Botha shouldn't be considered.

flankertye wrote:Cole looks about a 1000 years old.

I think Cole plays like he is 1000 years old. This is a problem.
Personally, I'm not feeling warm and fuzzy about England's tight 5 with only one or two exceptions. This is a big change for England from their traditional strength.

Is Garvey the one who went on that mazy run a few games ago? Looks at lot older than 24...

What about Mr Hudson up here in Newcastle....and he's a captain...just a shame he's captain of a load of tosh.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16057202.stm

Link of Garvey on the BBC website. He is 24 but doesn't look it!

I think the problem England has in general is that players are produced of a very similar level. It's tough to pick who is ready for the next level.

Halwalsh I disagree. I think Deacon and Palmer should be jettisoned. A fresh start.

There could be a new partner for Lawes in the 2nd row.

Geordiefalcon Hudson is no spring chicken at 30 years old.

Geordiefalcon Hudson is no spring chicken at 30 years old..

Thats true matey...but if the youngsters arent quite ready...we must use what we have that is....and if it means putting a couple of older guys playing very well for the short term...then thats what we must do.

Geordiefalcon why cap a new player? Why not pick the likes of Palmer and Deacon for the short tem.

Better to give a youngster the caps.

Still can't understand why Fourie and Waldrom got caps. I have my theories though.

Personally, I wouldn't ever like to see Borthwick near the EPS again. If he was selected it would be a huge step back in my opinion. Despite his line-out ability,I think there are others who are just as accomplished in that aspect of their game, but also offer a lot more-Nick Kennedy for one!

I agree GF (to a degree) if someone is good enough they are both old enough and young enough.

While we need to be rebuilding at the same time we also need to try and win matches. Very few teams successfully rebuild by throwing a full complement of kids in. Also if you pick a 20 year old just because they are young, next year the next 20 year old may be better. I also feel that players should be made to work for their place - not given it just because they are young (or experienced).

If two players are equal I would pick the younger. If I believer the younger player has the potential to be better within a season or so, I would probably pick the younger. Wherever possible I would be picking people who stand a chance of playing at the next world cup - but if for now someone who isn't is far superior to someone who could - I would pick the older player and make the younger player have to raise their game.

So for me the second row ranking in order I would select - looking only at fit players is:

Lawes (22)
Attwood (24)
Robson (26)
Deacon (31)
Palmer (32)
Kennedy (30)

If fit I would probably have Parling ahead of Robson - but that may be Tigers bias.

beshocked wrote:Still can't understand why Fourie and Waldrom got caps. I have my theories though.

Fourie was probably the most in-form genuine 7 in the Premiership last year hence why he was capped.

Waldrom is currently uncapped. As he was the Players Player of the year and in the ESPN, Sky and Premiership teams of the year perhaps he should have been.

OK so Plamer isnt affected by the foriegn based player bvan yet, but sdoes he have release clauses in his contract? Of the 30+ players hes the one I would want in the side. Deacon if hes not available, then Kennedy, then Borthwick if they are still short a leader. At least one of those guys has to be in the EPS.
Lawes is a given in the squad, I have my reservations about him but theres no question he'll be in. I think Parling needs to string a few months injury free quality rugby before he should be included, Id have him down as a possible summer tourist.

My preffered 4 would be
Palmer, Lawes, Robson and hmm OK Attwood. A good spilt of experience and player types.

No LondonTiger it's because they are both overrated journeyman.

Fourie stood out in the worst side. Waldrom wasn't trusted in the key games and couldn't cut it either. Plus neither are English.

Unlike Mouritz Botha, Waldrom is uncapped though

I wouldn't pick Mouritz Botha either. He is in poor form this season too.

If they were young then possibly but they are not.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon why cap a new player? Why not pick the likes of Palmer and Deacon for the short tem.

Better to give a youngster the caps.

Still can't understand why Fourie and Waldrom got caps. I have my theories though.

Im not saying definately do it....but if say someone like Hudson was playing out of his skin and was showing good captaincy skills..and if the youngsters arent ready and the likes of Palmer and Deacon are not playing well then i would be inclined to give Hudson a cap....he does have Saxons appearances.

Also its not always the answer to just throw the youngsters in. Yes ideally if they are out performing the older guys fine...and it then also builds for the future... but ultimately we are looking to put the best on form team out there...at the same time as building...so we need to mix the performming youngsters with older guys playing well..

beshocked wrote:No LondonTiger it's because they are both overrated journeyman.

Fourie stood out in the worst side. Waldrom wasn't trusted in the key games and couldn't cut it either. Plus neither are English.

Are you saying that England were the worst side?

Waldrom is very good at what he does but has a limited game. He was selected as cover for the England squad for that specific role and a sa aguy with the ability to step right in and perform at short notice, but was never used. Its unlikley that he will get in the EPS this time around.
Him being "not english" shouldnt really be coming into it given how much youve banged on about Brad Barrit.

PSW don't act stupid I know you are not. Of course I mean Leeds. I didn't realise I needed to spell it out for you.

Brad Barritt has an English mother. He didn't have to dig deep into the family archives to find an English granny. Brad probably could have stayed in South Africa and would have worked his way into the South Africa side but he came to England and is playing for Saracens now.

Waldrom came here because there was no chance he could get into the NZ side.

Some interesting comments. Re: the selecting overseas players I understood it that it was an RFU policy decision. Thus it wouldn't matter whether the player had release clauses on his side or not, hence Palmer I think will be overlooked. There is of course the 'exceptional circumstances' get out.

Beshocked I completely agree that there seems to be a generally good standard throughout the talent pool but no real stand-out performers who are clammering for caps. And that's really my point in this article, in the pack who (bar at 6 and 7) are really making a case for full inclusion?

England, as we know, like traditionally a strong pack and indeed need it to some extent. Most of the young talent coming through that immediately leaps to mind though are in the backs, not forwards strangely enough. People like: Sharples, Lowe, Trinder, May, Burns, Simpson, 36, Waldouck etc etc..

But as far as the forwards go there aren't many stand-out candidates outside of the flankers; particularly at hooker, no.8 and TH

Beshocked my point was that he did well in an england shirt too, so your point that he just looked goofd because he was in a bad side is riduclous.
I see we are getting into the "not english enough" argument again. It kind of proves my point that you getreally irate the moment anyone questions any chance that Barrit may be a bit not English but refuse to believe that Waldrom has any right to even exist because hes a bit too foriegn.
The underlying point to all that is that youre being a bit OTT in your hatred of these two players.

Wheeling this back a bit whats happened to your lad Saull (hes part of the reason you were so offended by Fourie right?) He doesnt seem to get much gametime now. Has he gone backwards or does he just need to start eating more beefburgers?

I think one of the issues for me is Courtney Lawes.

Is he big and strong enough at the moment (i expect him to fill out as he gets older) to play the enforcer role....i actually dont think he is...but he is not a main lineout operator either.

This means do well play another lineout winner with him - and thus a fairly lightweight SR combo....or do we play a beast alongside him (do we have any at the moment) and then have to play Croft at 6 for his lineout skills. This then leads back to the lightweight back row debates....

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I distinctly remember Hendre Fourie getting blown away by his fellow countrymen (South Africans) in the England vs South Africa game. Ok admittedly the whole side got completely outmuscled that day but Fourie was part of it.

My point of view is if you have a choice between a younger player and an old player with similar experience you should pick the youngster.

I advocate Barritt because he has been one of the in form inside centres in the AP for the last two seasons.

I have nothing against M.Tuilagi despite him being distinctly foreign. He is a very good player and deserves his spot in the England team.

Saull is in poor form.If he was in good form I would be advocating his selection. Yes I suppose you could say he has gone backwards. He has been given opportunities - he just hasn't done that well.


Chjw131 I am not sure why that's the case. Why for example do some English players only get capped at 25 whereas Welsh players get thrown in at 18. Are they really that much better? Of course not. If they were we wouldn't keep winning the U20s grandslam.

There is a transition failure from England U20s to the England senior team. I don't know why.

beshocked wrote:.

My point of view is if you have a choice between a younger player and an old player with similar experience ability you should pick the youngster.

I advocate Barritt because he has been one of the in form inside centres in the AP for the last two seasons.

I have nothing against M.Tuilagi despite him being distinctly foreign. He is a very good player and deserves his spot in the England team.

Saull is in poor form.If he was in good form I would be advocating his selection. Yes I suppose you could say he has gone backwards. He has been given opportunities - he just hasn't done that well.

Chjw131 I am not sure why that's the case. Why for example do some English players only get capped at 25 whereas Welsh players get thrown in at 18. Are they really that much better? Of course not. If they were we wouldn't keep winning the U20s grandslam.

There is a transition failure from England U20s to the England senior team. I don't know why.

Ok so now we are best friends

Pity about Saull, hes exactly the sort of guy who should be making that transition right now.

Indeed there is a transition failure and it mainly lies with the clubs. Take George Ford (another back!) for example. Admittedly a young man, but no younger than JW when he started playing for Newcastle. GF won IRB Junior Player of the year a few months ago, was superb throughout the U20's championship and was making a good case in a badly performing Tigers team at the start of the season. Yet all of a sudden he doesn't even make the bench in the past 6 weeks or so. There isn't enough done to encourage young players and allow them to grow in a challenging environment.

I would caveat that as far as the forwards go b saying that both young Launchbury and Charlie Matthews played very well in the U20's but don't quite have the size yet which comes with age for full blown international rugby.

Injured currently, perhaps serious, but has looked excellent since coming back at the start of the season. He is though 28 now and is he really an option to take us through to the world cup?

Only just 28 and is back in early January. His form was pretty damn good before Waldom fell on his knee.

I'd go with Lawes, Parling, Robson and then one of Garvey or Attwood.Give us good options. Deacon is playing well but if England want to play a more expansive game then he isn't the best option, plus England have a habit of breaking him so "hands off!".

Yet all of a sudden he doesn't even make the bench in the past 6 weeks or so. There isn't enough done to encourage young players and allow them to grow in a challenging environment.

Tell that to Sam Harrison he would disagree with you. Ford isn't on the bench because Cockerill likes to keep at least one experienced half back in reserve. If Ford was to take to the bench with Harrison you'd have half backs of Youngs (21/22), Flood (25), Harrison (21) and Ford (18). Could be a big ask for a young man to take on responsibility in a big game. Ford's kicking is still being worked on and with Twelvetrees out injured for most of the last 6 odd weeks it wasn't a good idea not to have a reliable points kicker available, even then Twelvetrees isn't always reliable.

Garvey looks a talent, we need a real grunt of a lock to partner Lawes really.

I'd have Lawes, Deacon & 2 of Parling, Robson, Garvey, Attwood. Personally I'd probably punt with Parling & Attwood

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think one of the issues for me is Courtney Lawes.

Is he big and strong enough at the moment (i expect him to fill out as he gets older) to play the enforcer role....i actually dont think he is...but he is not a main lineout operator either.

This means do well play another lineout winner with him - and thus a fairly lightweight SR combo....or do we play a beast alongside him (do we have any at the moment) and then have to play Croft at 6 for his lineout skills. This then leads back to the lightweight back row debates....

I think you have to play an all rounder with him if you want him to play in the second row. When England played well against the Aussies he was paired with Palmer (all-rounder) and the pack didn't seem under powered (although front five power has not generally been one of Australia's strength's in recent years ). At Saints he's been playing with Sorenson in the second row recently who is another I would class as an all rounder (I guess you would know that better than me). By the way I've been really impressed by Sorenson recently.

The thing with Lawes is that when you look at what he does well (tackling, fast to the breakdown, ball carrying into contact, off-loading etc) then he has all the attributes of a traditional 6. Sometimes wonder if that would have been his best position but the previous England management decided he was better suited in the second row (at the time he was playing 50/50 second row / blind side flanker at Saints) as at that time England seemed to have plenty of competition in the back row. I could be wrong on that assumption as MJ knows more about second row play than me but it seemed a case of wanting to get him into the team and there was space in the second row.

Due to injuries / suspensions I expect him to play 6 for Northampton until at least Dowson is back. Be interesting to see how he goes against Castes at the weekend if that is the case (thought he looked usefull when he played the second half against the Tigers at 6). I guess the advantage to having Lawes in the second row is that it is like having 4 back-rowers on the pitch at once but that can upset the balance of the front five as a unit.

Back to the op's original question I would have Lawes, Deacon, Parling (if fit) and Attwood in the EPS, with Garvey and Robson in the Saxons. Shame Parling got injured again, he would have been in my first choice 15 based on the start of the season.

Agree that Garvey looks a real talent. Wasn't just impressed by the run at the weekend, his work rate in defense and attack was outstanding and he seems to have a decent turn of pace for a big guy.

Lawes is a big strong guy, I made the point a while ago that Lawes and Whitelock are both pretty similar height and weight. Yet we presume Lawes to be an enforcer and for Whitelock to be a lineout forward.

I could be wrong on that assumption as MJ knows more about second row play than me but it seemed a case of wanting to get him into the team and there was space in the second row.

His permanant move to the second row co-incided with Juande Kruger leaving the Saints and returning to the Blue Bulls. Saints signed the young Leeds flanker Clarke as a replacement and moved Lawes to the second row full time.

"Lawes is a big strong guy, I made the point a while ago that Lawes and Whitelock are both pretty similar height and weight. Yet we presume Lawes to be an enforcer and for Whitelock to be a lineout forward."

I think that's maybe due to Lawes not being that great in the lineout. I've never known him to run a line either tbh (may be wrong)

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I could be wrong on that assumption as MJ knows more about second row play than me but it seemed a case of wanting to get him into the team and there was space in the second row.

His permanant move to the second row co-incided with Juande Kruger leaving the Saints and returning to the Blue Bulls. Saints signed the young Leeds flanker Clarke as a replacement and moved Lawes to the second row full time.

Talking to some bigger Saints fans than me that wasn't a done deal though after Kruger left, the coaching staff still were not 100% convinced. Clark can play second row as well (although he much prefers flanker) but the EPS deal meant that Lawes began playing second row full time (isn't there something about extra money for EPS players playing for their clubs in their international position?).

I'm not saying the above is fact but rather what I was told.

lawes is the first name down, although he does need to work on his lineout play.

one of deacon or palmer should be retained. i'd prefer plamer but with him playing abroad it should probbe deacon.

attwood is the next man in line for me, he has real international potential.

that leaves one spot, the likes of garvey, kitchener and the best of the young bunch, lauchberry, have time on there side and need to nail down the shirt for their club before being considered for england.

i think that leaves robson, kennedy and parling.
parling- needs to stay injury free for long enough
kennedy- unlucky not to have more caps
Robson- probably the best on form




and to throw a cat amonst the pidgeons, whatever happened to christian day? phenominal last season i thought.

I'd go with Lawes and Palmer starting, Attwood on the bench and Deacon in the squad. Parling, Robson and Garvey in the Saxons.

I think we've got more important areas to readjust (back row and centres) so we should go for a bit of consistency in the second row. We'll take more people down South in the summer and can have a look at some of the fringe options then.

I'd honestly throw Garvey straight in, he's been playing better for Irish than Kennedy this year and looks a great prospect. He always makes the hard yards around the rucks and has pace to burn too.

and to throw a cat amonst the pidgeons, whatever happened to christian day? phenominal last season i thought..

Injured.

isn't there something about extra money for EPS players playing for their clubs in their international position?

Don't know. There was something written into the agreement so that the England management could request clubs to play the internationals in the positions preferred by England. Hence Hape playing 12 and Barkley playing 13 for some of last season.