England second rows for AIs

by Triangulation Fri 28 Sep 2012, 11:02 am

Who should they be and why?

I grew up watching Ackford and Dooley and the commentator would say "here comes the constabulary!"

England supporters should be able to expect us to be strong in the second row. It has almost always been thus.

England not being able to produce excellent second rows is like the wallabies suddenly going to their backline cupboard and finding it mother hubbard.

It should be unthinkable but it seems to be happening to us.

by Chjw131 Fri 28 Sep 2012, 12:45 pm

Tri, you are spot on. Perhaps it's too much emphasis on all the running around and glory hunting the back-row do and not enough respect for the grunt of the engine room through the age grades?

by Geordie Fri 28 Sep 2012, 1:34 pm

Who is there?

Lawes - Potential for World class, tough tackler, rucker etc. Decent in the lineout. Not a ball carrier though. If he was a lineout expert he would be sensational.

Attwood - Rough, tough big fella...but lost his way in the last few years. Can Gold get him back on track?

Parling - Lineout technician, and with experience of playing 6 has decent skills in the tight and loose...but is he ever going to make top international class

Palmer - On his day the "perfect modern second row" according to England Management...but his form hasnt been electric.

Garvey - Monstrous big guy...tackler of the year for irish 2 seasons in a row i believe...and a huge ball carrier...but many question if he has enough to take the next step...and something happened during that Saxons half time period.

Launchbury - Huge hope for this guy...can play 4 & 6....looks to have the lot.

Slater - Enforcer style...but young and learning at Leicester

Kitchener - Lineout technician...getting gametime now at Tigers.

Matthews - Cant comment as i havent seen much...

Savage - Looks a physical powerhouse....who can also play 6.

Deacon - Injuries looking troublesome...

Botha - Tries hard...puts his head in...but is he going to attain the level we need and a bit reckless at times...missing tackles etc.

Robson - Excellent lineout technician...playing in the prem champions but some do raise questions over his power and work in the tight...though quins fans disagree

Kohnv - The poower and bulk that complements Robson. Could his bulk be an assett for England or is he not quite international level?

by Chjw131 Fri 28 Sep 2012, 2:00 pm

Is there a link for the Saxons v Irish Wolfhounds game anywhere? I'd like to send it to Lancaster and ask him to justify why Garvey has been shut out based on that performance, which was frankly excellent for a Second Row Forward.

by beshocked Fri 28 Sep 2012, 2:07 pm

If you are going to mention Matthews whoever he is you might as well mention George Kruis. Was pretty good last season for Sarries. On the bench vs Quins as he is making his comeback from injury in the Jp Morgan sevens.

by bluestonevedder Fri 28 Sep 2012, 2:14 pm

I've been impressed with Kitchener recently. He's sensational in the loose, and has a decent turn of pace, as well as soft hands. If he could prove he can do the dirty also, he'd be a real contender.

by Chjw131 Fri 28 Sep 2012, 2:17 pm

bluestone you're right, Kitchener has always had good hands and a surprising turn of pace.

He has always been suspect in the tight, but his lineout work has come on immeasurably at Tigers.

by yappysnap Fri 28 Sep 2012, 2:22 pm

I'd like to see a starting partnership of Lawes and Palmer with one of Launchberry, Garvey or Kitchener on the bench.

Imagine getting to 50 mins, moving Lawes to 6 and then bringing on one of those three to help lock a game down.

I see this AI's as a swan song for Palmer, we need to use it to give plenty of experience to who ever will take over from him so that they're ready to start alongside Lawes in the 6N's. But he has a job to do and is very effective in the lineout and around the park, he just can't make those big hits that Lawes can.

by robshaw4england Fri 28 Sep 2012, 2:44 pm

In regards to Dave Attwood, whenever I have seen him come off of the bench for Bath this season he has really impressed me. His work-rate, power and tackle count all very strong, he's finally been given his first start of the season against Sale and I will be watching very closely.

If he can become first choice for Bath then I'm sure his performances will get even better and he'll start knocking on the international door once again.

Garvey, Kitchener, Savage and Launchberry all have huge potential, however they may need a little more time to master the dark arts of the game and what is required at the international level.

Parling and Palmer are the current incumbents, and I'm sure Lawes isn't too far behind. However, I have question marks over Lawes scrummaging ability, and the way Scott Williams ripped the ball off of him in the six nations which led to the try is unforgivable!

by Chjw131 Fri 28 Sep 2012, 3:42 pm

robshaw4england wrote:In regards to Dave Attwood, whenever I have seen him come off of the bench for Bath this season he has really impressed me. His work-rate, power and tackle count all very strong, he's finally been given his first start of the season against Sale and I will be watching very closely.

If he can become first choice for Bath then I'm sure his performances will get even better and he'll start knocking on the international door once again.

Garvey, Kitchener, Savage and Launchberry all have huge potential, however they may need a little more time to master the dark arts of the game and what is required at the international level.

Parling and Palmer are the current incumbents, and I'm sure Lawes isn't too far behind. However, I have question marks over Lawes scrummaging ability, and the way Scott Williams ripped the ball off of him in the six nations which led to the try is unforgivable!

I agree that being ripped by a centre isn't exactly a great advert for a second row but let's not write him off as a second row based on one incident.

Attwood has also impressed me coming off the bench this season and for my money Gold and Booth are doing an excellent job with the forwards based on what we've seen so far. Hopefully he'll motivate himself to get into the EPS as if he moves up a gear he could be excellent.

by bluestonevedder Fri 28 Sep 2012, 3:47 pm

Chjw131 wrote:
robshaw4england wrote:In regards to Dave Attwood, whenever I have seen him come off of the bench for Bath this season he has really impressed me. His work-rate, power and tackle count all very strong, he's finally been given his first start of the season against Sale and I will be watching very closely.

If he can become first choice for Bath then I'm sure his performances will get even better and he'll start knocking on the international door once again.

Garvey, Kitchener, Savage and Launchberry all have huge potential, however they may need a little more time to master the dark arts of the game and what is required at the international level.

Parling and Palmer are the current incumbents, and I'm sure Lawes isn't too far behind. However, I have question marks over Lawes scrummaging ability, and the way Scott Williams ripped the ball off of him in the six nations which led to the try is unforgivable!

I agree that being ripped by a centre isn't exactly a great advert for a second row but let's not write him off as a second row based on one incident.

Attwood has also impressed me coming off the bench this season and for my money Gold and Booth are doing an excellent job with the forwards based on what we've seen so far. Hopefully he'll motivate himself to get into the EPS as if he moves up a gear he could be excellent.

Yeh, the Bath forwards seem to be working better this season. Fearns himself improved a lot, in terms of getting around the park and chasing kicks. He was hammering Yarde all day last weekend. I did notice however, Fearns got demolished by Lahiff, and shrugged off the tackle. Lahiff's one heck of a unit, and carries and scrummages well. Possibly one to keep an eye on?

by Chjw131 Fri 28 Sep 2012, 3:53 pm

Spot on bluestone. Lahiff has been making waves at Irish for a season or two he's only young as well 22 I think? We're looking well stocked for quality LHs at present with: Marler, Corbisiero, Mullan, Vunipola, Catt, Lahiff etc all looking like they have the potential to be very good.

Also keep an eye out for the JWC LH alongside Sinckler. Luke Cowan-Dickie for Exeter Chiefs. He's only 19 or so at present, but played superbly alongside the equally superb Sinckler for the U20s last year.

by Geordie Fri 28 Sep 2012, 4:09 pm

No player is free from taking a big hit though...

But Fearns seems to be back on track...glad to see the reports on Attwood

by bluestonevedder Fri 28 Sep 2012, 4:38 pm

Chjw131: Sinckler is a heck of a talent, you're right.

GF: No, absolutely right- no player is free from big hits, but I've never seen Fearns bumped off like that, it was impressive on Lahiff's part. Like I said, Fearns really impressed me with his performance in that game- he was everywhere, and tackled like a beast as per usual. Good over the ball too.

by king_carlos Sat 29 Sep 2012, 3:37 pm

yappysnap wrote:I'd like to see a starting partnership of Lawes and Palmer with one of Launchberry, Garvey or Kitchener on the bench.

Imagine getting to 50 mins, moving Lawes to 6 and then bringing on one of those three to help lock a game down.

I see this AI's as a swan song for Palmer, we need to use it to give plenty of experience to who ever will take over from him so that they're ready to start alongside Lawes in the 6N's. But he has a job to do and is very effective in the lineout and around the park, he just can't make those big hits that Lawes can.

I like the look of that partnership/idea. I would happily have Parling or Palmer at 5 and Lawes or Launberry at 4 with the other or Lawes/Launberry on the bench atm. Those 4 players would definitely be my locks in the EPS though - Mouritz Botha is a very solid player but personally I think Launchberry and Lawes will offer more in the 'enforcer' role he fulfils going forward.

My choice a the moment;

4.Launchberry
5.Parling

Bench: Lawes

On this being Palmers swansong it all depends on form and how he seems to be holding up physically. I don't know much about Palmers domestic form so any information on that would be very welcome!

by Poorfour Sat 29 Sep 2012, 9:16 pm

The big worry is that there's lots of potential, but few finished articles. Lawes looked good as long ago as 2010, but injury seems to have stopped him kicking on. Ditto Attwood.

Launchbury and Matthews look promising, and could be seasoned internationals by 2015 if they continue to develop.

It's a shame that Olly Kohn isn't 2 years younger and didn't lose two years to knee injuries. His current form makes him one of the best enforcers around, but at 31 I can't see him as a realistic option for 2013.

by HQ matt Sun 30 Sep 2012, 11:44 am

i dont think launchberry is ready to play 2nd row at test level, id currently have kitchener ahead of him.

going into the ai's;

parling- a cert, the only true lineout leader

palmer- good to have an experienced head in there, has a strong all round game

botha- high workrate, he has been the most effective ball carrier in the 2nd row recently.

Lawes- is looking immense upon his return surely only a matter of time before he finds himself back in the starting 15.

by Geordie Mon 01 Oct 2012, 11:41 am

HQ matt wrote:i dont think launchberry is ready to play 2nd row at test level, id currently have kitchener ahead of him.

going into the ai's;

parling- a cert, the only true lineout leader - Robson is a lineout leader also but just doesnt do it for me...Parling also wouldnt be my first choice...but is the best of an ok bunch.

palmer- good to have an experienced head in there, has a strong all round game

botha- high workrate, he has been the most effective ball carrier in the 2nd row recently.

Lawes- is looking immense upon his return surely only a matter of time before he finds himself back in the starting 15. - I wonder if he will be considerd for the 6 spot.

by Geordie Mon 01 Oct 2012, 2:53 pm

Also i notice Lawes has but on a stone...bulking up nicely....would work nice alongside a lineout fella...then just need to increase the ball carrying in the back row...and maybe Marler and another Hooker...

by bluestonevedder Thu 04 Oct 2012, 10:58 am

I was Bat-Sale at the weekend, and Attwood looked very good, especially in the lineout and tackle area. Anyone else watch the game/rate his performance?

by yappysnap Thu 04 Oct 2012, 11:00 am

Unfortunately no. It would be nice if the Bath coaches could wake up and drop the cack players that they have in the second row currently and start him this weekend so that we can see him go head to head with Glos and Hamilton and co.

by bluestonevedder Thu 04 Oct 2012, 11:01 am

Agree yappy- that would be a good test for Attwood. To be honest, I don't rate Hooper at all, and I think Day-Attwood would be a much better starting pair.

by bathmad Thu 04 Oct 2012, 11:09 am

bluestonevedder wrote:Agree yappy- that would be a good test for Attwood. To be honest, I don't rate Hooper at all, and I think Day-Attwood would be a much better starting pair.

I pray for the day....!

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