Who's going to win: Wales or England? Plus team discussion.

First topic message reminder :

It looks like the England team will be as below, I make it that 9 of Englands 1st team are been rested including the potent strike runners of Foden and Ashton. Possibly more as Wood impressed in the 6 nations and could be considered a 1st team player. It seems Wales will be naming a first choice team. Will it be a disaster if Wales loose this game against a experimental England team 'B' team?

Armitage Irish - 2nd choice (Foden 1st Choice)
Banahan Bath - 2nd choice (Ashton 1st choice)
Tuilagi Leicester - 2nd choice (Tindall first choice)
Flutey Wasps - 2nd choice (Hape 1st choice)
Cueto Sale
Wilkinson Toulon - 2nd choice (Flood 1st choice)
Care Quins - 2nd choice (Youngs first choice)
Corbisiero Irish -2nd choice (Sheridan 1st choice)
Hartley Saints
Stevens Saracens - 2nd choice (Cole 1st choice)
Shaw Wasps - 2nd choice (Lawes 1st choice)
Palmer Stade
Croft Leicester
Moody Bath
Haskell Unattached

We knew it would happen but Huw flaming Bennett aaaarrrgggghhhhhh.

Thought Henson would have had some gametime and not sure about Priestland at XV but its good to see what alternatives we have.

Other than that I am very happy with the strength of that side and say its not far of 1st choice in Gatlands eyes.

Not say we should win but we have a great chance

Do you think Wilkinson will be sent out to prove he can run with looks like an aggressive attacking backline? i.e. play flatter, kick less, play the space?

Or do you think that England will be looking for him to play his more traditional role?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

tomathy wrote:Oddschecker have england at 1/5 so no, it wouldn't be much of a shock.

In that case Id put my money on Wales. At those odds its value.

I agree. I was just saying that it would hardly be a shock if England win.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Do you think Wilkinson will be sent out to prove he can run with looks like an aggressive attacking backline? i.e. play flatter, kick less, play the space?

Or do you think that England will be looking for him to play his more traditional role?

Wilkinson's particularly poor patch with England coincided with a time when we had a rubbish gameplan with him being asked to stand deep. When he came on in the six nations he looked much more threatening. He was never as bad a runner and passer as people like to make out. I would say they'll be asking him to run the ball primarily. It will be his and Flutey's job to put Tuilagi and Banahan in dangerous areas.

WALES TO WIN by 15-20 points

NewTraditionalHaka wrote:Disaster? Only if you think losing to the BaBa's would be a disaster. These might be English players playing at home but they're comparative strangers as a unit. Johnson playing all range of potential back-ups, Gatland tinkering with starters. This Welsh team should be wiining these sorts of games - if it doesn't then this close to RWC it bodes increasingly badly for the pool challenges to come.

Disaster may be a bit too strong but I take your sentiment. This England side have never played together before as a 22 so will be quite rusty once the whistle blows for kick off. A Welsh win here is crucial whereas an England win will be surprising. The England coaches are taking a chance I just hope they know what they're doing. A loss at home is almost a 'disaster'.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Or do you think that England will be looking for him to play his more traditional role?

I dont think they will be looking to get him stretchered off halfway through no.

From what Tindall said they are expecting the side to attack creativly. Theyll no doubt start cagey, but he is going to be asked to pass the ball at some point. I cant imagine anyones seriously thinking he'll run any distance with it though.

Happy except Bennett even though we all knew it would happen.

Am very surprised to not to see Henson at least on the bench as he needs gametime.

Pack is very strong other than him above and after being at HQ in 07 am glad to see Gatland has put out a pretty strong side with mostly 1st choice players in there.

Not sure about Priestland at XV but not seen much of him there and good to have a look at our options.

viewtothegym wrote:WALES TO WIN by 15-20 points

that would be a big shock, and a massive boost.

i am feeling a bit more confident about wales' chances at hq having now seen the teams. i think wales will sneak a win in a low scoring game.

I'd say you're right Grey Ghost, and if you are then England's centre pairing could be very handy indeed.

I don't think much of Banahan, certainly not on the wing. We need to kick in behind him. I've seen ships turn faster.

I'm pleased Wales have picked a strong side with a lot of experienced players. But i'm incensed Huw Bennett and Mike Phillips have been picked.
Basically out line out is shafted before we start, it's a dead cert Bennett won't throw straight and will give up possession a few times as a result.

Wales have almost no creativity in the 9-13 back line so basically have Phillips, Jones, Davies and Roberts on the crash ball, which is fine provided the English are weak tacklers. Strangely this could work for Wales, Manu Tuilagi is prone to looking for the big hit and not keeping discpline and Riki Flutey is extremely lightweight, when you consider most of the English back row will be shadowing Mike Phillips, it could mean spaces out wide for Wales to hit.

I've no concerns about our scrum Mitchell and James are solid scrumagers. Our locks add a lot of grunt and are strong players. While our back row is strong, can carry the ball, can tackle and will get stuck in.

If England are going to win you would expect them to bully Wales out of the game, but I think Wales have enough tough men to easily hold their own with this England team. England would probably be best kicking deep into touch and putting pressure on Bennett to win the game.

Unless one team catches fire early on I'd say England to edge a close game say 26-24.

I wouldnt want to be on the wing with Tuilagi and Banahan to defend against.
The inepexerienced back 3 for Wales could be a problem, England iwll look to rough them up with big hits. Anyone see the treatment Tuilagi gave Abendanon? Brutal. Course in looking to do that he has a habit of leaving massive gaps in the line. But its great entertainment!

When England play Banhana on the wing they tend to ask him to step inside quite a bit. Tuilagi played on the wing a fair bit for Tigers academy and in his first senior friendlies, Id expect those two to be interchanging a bit.

If Wwales can get a long kicking game going there could be space behind both of them, but thats where playing Cueto and a wing-fullback comes in handy, it allows Foden to cover half the field and leave the other half to him. Both are strong returners of the ball.

What England lack is an out and out try scorer, something Wales have.

3-1 moral victory to Wales, England to cheat a win by Wilkinosn kicking goals.

England are gonna win. Gonna batter the welsh. Its a very strong england line up, hope flutey has hit some form to unleash Matt Banahan and Tuilagi.

Not surprised to see Bennett or Phillips and not as annoyed over Phillips as I am about Bennett.

Just hope Burns and Knoyle get some gametime and sooner rather than later if the other two are not doing the business.

Priestland has played very well at fullback, and I was calling for him there during the 6Ns when Hook started there. He does seem to have a knack of seeing when the option of running is on (or more importantly when it is not), and also does come into the line well off the shoulder of Foxy and Steve. I think that IF he can keep his nerve, and not let the occation get to him, that he may well prove himself a realistic option there.

I am a bit disappointed that Josh Turnbull isn't getting a shot (even off the bench) as I do believe that he has a good skill set to bring to the game, and may well help up the tempo a touch. But all in all I am far happier with that side than I had expected to be.

SS,

Good to hear about Priestland, like said not overly bothered about him there as its good to look at options just not seen enough of him there.

Turnbull will get a shot I am sure.

flankertye wrote:England are gonna win. Gonna batter the welsh. Its a very strong england line up, hope flutey has hit some form to unleash Matt Banahan and Tuilagi.

Tell that to 17 stone 6'4 wing North

bedfordwelsh wrote:Not surprised to see Bennett or Phillips and not as annoyed over Phillips as I am about Bennett.

Just hope Burns and Knoyle get some gametime and sooner rather than later if the other two are not doing the business.

I agree, Benett shouldnt be any where near a Welsh jersey, he's third choice at the Ospreys behind Hibbard and Mefin Davies yet still plays for Wales?
Every game Bennett plays, Wales struggle horribly and are under huge pressure because of his lack of composure at the line out. He's been playing for Wales for 11 years if he still can't throw a ball in a straight line then were wasting our time.

Knoyle should be in ahead of Phillips too.

It will interesting to see how our centres cope but with them both being big and very mobile I think they will hold their own.

He might have a stormer, but if Mike Phillips has another bad game I'll be furious to see him start in a week's time.

What we all have to hope is that Phillips gets back to his best as WG is obviously determined to play him a the WC. If he was seriously considering starting the group games with a different SH he would be playing him now IMO.

Interestingly, our best attacking threat with this team comes from our back three - which one would have expected to be englands biggest threat too if they had picked 1st choices there.

So in terms of the backs I think its edged like this.

SH - England
FH - Same
Centres - Wales
Wings - Wales
FB - England

Should be a good tussle - lets just hope from a Welsh POV that Phillips is quicker and more decisive then of late!!!

munkian wrote:

flankertye wrote:England are gonna win. Gonna batter the welsh. Its a very strong england line up, hope flutey has hit some form to unleash Matt Banahan and Tuilagi.

Tell that to 17 stone 6'4 wing North

Hahaha, is he on the opposite wing to Banahan?
Lots of collison there...

In terms of Bennet it's not too bad. Given the rustiness of the players and these experimental line-ups there will be more handling errors then normal and therefore more scrums and IMO less Welsh line outs as England will look to hold onto the ball and then expect Wales to kick it to them when they have it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Priestland has played very well at fullback... he does seem to have a knack of seeing when the option of running is on (or more importantly when it is not).

That has to be good. Lee Byrne doesn't even bother to look.

flankertye wrote:

munkian wrote:

flankertye wrote:England are gonna win. Gonna batter the welsh. Its a very strong england line up, hope flutey has hit some form to unleash Matt Banahan and Tuilagi.

Tell that to 17 stone 6'4 wing North

Hahaha, is he on the opposite wing to Banahan?
Lots of collison there...

Pretty sure he's playing 14

I'm suprised the English are so confident over the winger situation. Yes I agree if Matthew Banahan can get up a head of steam against Shane Williams you'd assume his 6'7" 18 stones would go through Shane. However Shane is used to playing against bigger men, and Banahan isn't Jonah Lomu for heavens sake.
There is nothing Banahan can do that Shane wouldn't of seen in the last 12 seasons, and 73 games he has played for Wales.

I'd be more worried about Shane getting the ball in a turnover situation with a bit of space and making Banahan look like a lumbering lock forward caught out of position. You can see hours of video on Youtube of Shane dancing, skipping, and side stepping his way to score tries against some of the best players in the World while breaking try scoring records all over the place. If there's one situation where England fans should be worried it's Shane with the ball in his hands with Banahan grasping for air .

munkian wrote:

flankertye wrote:

munkian wrote:

flankertye wrote:England are gonna win. Gonna batter the welsh. Its a very strong england line up, hope flutey has hit some form to unleash Matt Banahan and Tuilagi.

Tell that to 17 stone 6'4 wing North

Hahaha, is he on the opposite wing to Banahan?
Lots of collison there...

Pretty sure he's playing 14

Ok so there is a hell of a lot of difference between Shane and Banahan but we have this discussion everytime Shane plays against a bigger winger - wasn't it Lesley last time and nothing came of that?

He may not smash them but he's never really been run over by them either.

If he's up against North then I doubt theres much difference there so lets just wait and see shall we.

AlynDavies wrote:I'm pleased Wales have picked a strong side with a lot of experienced players. But i'm incensed Huw Bennett and Mike Phillips have been picked.
Basically out line out is shafted before we start, it's a dead cert Bennett won't throw straight and will give up possession a few times as a result.

Wales have almost no creativity in the 9-13 back line so basically have Phillips, Jones, Davies and Roberts on the crash ball, which is fine provided the English are weak tacklers. Strangely this could work for Wales, Manu Tuilagi is prone to looking for the big hit and not keeping discpline and Riki Flutey is extremely lightweight, when you consider most of the English back row will be shadowing Mike Phillips, it could mean spaces out wide for Wales to hit.

I've no concerns about our scrum Mitchell and James are solid scrumagers. Our locks add a lot of grunt and are strong players. While our back row is strong, can carry the ball, can tackle and will get stuck in.

If England are going to win you would expect them to bully Wales out of the game, but I think Wales have enough tough men to easily hold their own with this England team. England would probably be best kicking deep into touch and putting pressure on Bennett to win the game.

Unless one team catches fire early on I'd say England to edge a close game say 26-24.

Not sure where you get the idea that flutey is weak in the tackle, whilst he may not weigh alot he almost always puts his man down and is definately not lightweight tackling wise. I agree that wales will have more luck in the outside channels and whilst i quite like Banahan i do worry about him at wing in defense. Especially against more nimble opponents (pretty much every other international winger) and wales should/will look to exploit this. However if wales look to crash up the middle i don't think you'll get anywhere, unless you heavily utilise your centres as dummy runners and get Tuilagi flying out the line creating gaps for your back 3 to run through.

I think if the england team isn't too rusty and have practiced together alot in training so that the combinations work we could do some serious damage to wales. Theres a good mix between massive experience (Wilkinson, Moody cueto and Shaw) those that are established (Care, Croft, Haskell and Hartley) and then those that are new to the scene or coming back from layoffs (Flutey, Armitage, Corbs, Stevens, Banahan and Tuilagi). These types of players will all lift each other, not to mention that they are all playing for a place on the plane. I'm very excited to watch this team play, if Armitage regains his form hes a good FB and great backup to Foden. If the midfield clicks it could be incredibly good, plus we would have the very experienced and solid option of Tindall as backup. Alot of people (myself included) have wanted ot see how haskell goes at 8, he has the physical attributes for it, lets hope hes learnt some of the mental.

All in all I see an England win, if things click, then quite a comfortable 1 in all honesty, if not, it will be close but i think that the experience and the fact that its at twickers will see us through.

They are actualy going to be two huge backlines arent they, Shane Williams excepted.

TBJ9625 wrote:Yep, looks like a good team. I'm surprised Henson isn't even on the bench (what do we read into that then?) Disappointed they've gone for Bennet and Phillips, but otherwise a solid looking team

Endorse that 100%. Bennett !!!!..............Unless Phillips has pulled back some "pre Lions" form its a disappointment to have picked him

Solid is deffo the term to use, a good scrummaging front 3, and a fast loose back 3, the onus will be on the locks to bind that pack AWJ and BD will have to crank it up.

Good looking bench

Looking forward to the recording

The point of the above post is that he said, " Our Tries". Can you imagine a NH player getting ten tries and calling them OUR TRIES?????

How is that relevent to either team selection Patron?

Who do you think will win on Sat anyways?

I'm finding it a lot closer to call then I thought. If (and it's a BIG if) Wales get quick ball, I think we'll just pinch it. Huge ask away from home considering how we've been playing recently though.

It wil be close and really it will come down to Wales' defence. If we can stop England and with their line-up I thinks thats possible then hopefully our back three get a lot of ball kicked at them. If we adopt a running not kicking strategy then our back three could do some serious damage.

I know you cant just blame one man (or two) for a defeat but I really think Bennett and Phillips could have a lot to do with the outcome of this game.

Yes we have a strong front row with at least 4 possibly 5 1st choice players in there BUT he has to hit his jumpers.

Jones Roberts Davies Shane and North would as well be considered 1st choice BUT Phillips has to get the ball away quick enough for us to use them.

I think he has picked a side capable of winning on Saturday, whether we will or not we will have to wait and see.

Bedford, you right, we will win or lose as a team, but the two hilghighted players have the potiential to influence either outcome. I believe we will already be on the back foot in the set piece, because of our lineout. I believe we should see parity in the scrums. As for the backline, I can't see it functioning properly in attach while we have 2 steps at scrum half. We need quick decisive ball out to give wellies his time to decide how he is going to light up (sorry sarcasm) the back line. I just think with those two in place we lose the chance for creativity. Don't get me wrong, Jones has been a great servant to Wales, but he needs time with the ball to decide what to do. He has never really been a Surprise OH, like Hook. Lets see how we do, I think Wales should win this one?

wrfc1980 wrote:It looks like the England team will be as below, I make it that 9 of Englands 1st team are been rested including the potent strike runners of Foden and Ashton. Possibly more as Wood impressed in the 6 nations and could be considered a 1st team player. It seems Wales will be naming a first choice team. Will it be a disaster if Wales loose this game against a experimental England team 'B' team?

Armitage Irish - 2nd choice (Foden 1st Choice)
Banahan Bath - 2nd choice (Ashton 1st choice)
Tuilagi Leicester - 2nd choice (Tindall first choice)
Flutey Wasps - 2nd choice (Hape 1st choice)
Cueto Sale
Wilkinson Toulon - 2nd choice (Flood 1st choice)
Care Quins - 2nd choice (Youngs first choice)
Corbisiero Irish -2nd choice (Sheridan 1st choice)
Hartley Saints
Stevens Saracens - 2nd choice (Cole 1st choice)
Shaw Wasps - 2nd choice (Lawes 1st choice)
Palmer Stade
Croft Leicester
Moody Bath
Haskell Unattached

England at home with at least arguably 9 automatically first choice players ............. I would have said that they would be in the ascendancy

Seems like the words of a worried poster............... There are at least 15 England players who can argue they are as good as the players who have not been selected

Man for man there is nothing for Wales to worry about, its going to be a close game indeed, the Welsh have to crank it up now, their "Lions" Phillips, Jones, Roberts, Williams are all able to dictate the game if they play to their potential, and lets be honest an "on form" Shane Williams is a quantum leap above anything England have on offer. Together with "try machine Jon Davies, "bit of an animal" George North, and if he can keep his nerves in check 6' 1" 15 1/2 stone Priestlands attacking flair could all cause England massive problems

England even with their arguably stronger players on show would have a tough time methinks

Given injuries I think it's an ok team apart from the two obvious candidates for brain transplants! I suppose Bennett gives you a bit of grunt in the tight but is a liability at the lineout and at the breakdown. Much will depend on Gatland's gameplan. If it's up and unders all day forget it. I can see us struggling at the breakdown again. That back five is 4 parts of the last seasons back five that's seen us conceeding a lot of turnovers .... but again is this down to Gatland's gameplan? Perhaps a less lateral approach might see us go over the gainline and give the team the momentum it needs to hit rucks at pace and clear out. As opposed to trekking backwards trying to rescue slow ball that is!

I'm dissapointed that Roberts is at 12. I hope this doesn't mean old crash ball Jamie will be the no1 plan (alongside gift-kick the ball to the opposition) in attack! Davies should be at 12 if Roberts is at centre.

So as usual major issues are:

Phillips at 9
Roberts at 12
Bennett involved in any capacity
Gatland's gameplan.

Same old, same old .....

I initially thought England, but when I saw the Welsh side picked, they really ought to win this one.

Shane is well aware that Brew et al are knocking on his door.He must produce the goods..We have ceded the front row and given our "star" second row a last chance.
Worried by the lack of Henson.Has he finally come up short?His tackling was pathetic against the Baa-baas and has he managed to get his Rugby head back?Shame if he hasnt.
Why we need to see what S Jones can do at 10 is beyond me.Surely a chance to see what Priestland can do has been wasted?

It would be insane to start Priestland at 10, for his first start in a Welsh shirt against England at Twickenham. He needs to be eased in, and Gats has only got 3 matches in which to do it. Wise call having him at FB, and there's no one else but Jones to cover 10 whilst Hook is injured (although I'd have preferred him to start anyway).

flyhalffactory wrote:

England at home with at least arguably 9 automatically first choice players ....
England even with their arguably stronger players on show would have a tough time methinks

To get this straight theres only 5 first choice england players in the starting lineup, he missed off that Easter not Haskel is the normal number 8.
Youd be hard pressed to call 10 of those first choice, although Flutey could force his way in there ahead of hape

As for a full strength England side ... a slightly under full strength one beat Wales comfortably in their last two meetings. Given that this too is a weakened Wales side surely even someone as blinkered as yourself would cede that they wouldnt have that tough a time.
As it is its a seriosuly weakened experimental side against a similar Welsh one in a game where the coaches will be looking for the players to try certaoin moves and play in certan styles rather than out and out chase the win. Of course it matters as a game but lets not kid ourselves that this is a proper international, or that either team has been selected with the sole intention of winning.
You arent going to see the best of either side in either of these games, nor can they be used as a serous guide on how the sides will fare at the world cup. Look at the Tri nations...thats allegedly a competitive tournament and they can get proper sides out

Garland stated it's Wales strongest line up whereas England have 10 second string players named in their starting line up.
I think Gats has learnt from 07!

A lot obviously depends on players form & clicking.

I think home advantage with Wilko pulling the strings will swing it.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:although Flutey could force his way in there ahead of hape

Whats the deal here, wasn't Hape just keeping Flutey's seat warm while he was injured?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

England at home with at least arguably 9 automatically first choice players ....
England even with their arguably stronger players on show would have a tough time methinks

To get this straight theres only 5 first choice england players in the starting lineup, he missed off that Easter not Haskel is the normal number 8.
Youd be hard pressed to call 10 of those first choice, although Flutey could force his way in there ahead of hape

As for a full strength England side ... a slightly under full strength one beat Wales comfortably in their last two meetings. Given that this too is a weakened Wales side surely even someone as blinkered as yourself would cede that they wouldnt have that tough a time.
As it is its a seriosuly weakened experimental side against a similar Welsh one in a game where the coaches will be looking for the players to try certaoin moves and play in certan styles rather than out and out chase the win. Of course it matters as a game but lets not kid ourselves that this is a proper international, or that either team has been selected with the sole intention of winning.
You arent going to see the best of either side in either of these games, nor can they be used as a serous guide on how the sides will fare at the world cup. Look at the Tri nations...thats allegedly a competitive tournament and they can get proper sides out

As an outsider England never beat Wales comfortably in the last two seasons I would suggest that only the most blinkered biased Englishman would ever suggest that. Secondly I would suggest that most of the English team are not experimental there is a alot of experience there for example Wilko is not that far off Flood as first choice as is the case with the two scrumhalfs

Lets see....... apart from the front 3, and 8 you could argue that this is the best Wales side available, I would suggest only the most naive person would think that Gatland isn't looking to win both games as the Welsh (like us Scots) haven't the belief in our potential or ability like our English cousins. Gatland will be looking for back to back victories to install confidence going into the WC

maestegmafia wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:although Flutey could force his way in there ahead of hape

Whats the deal here, wasn't Hape just keeping Flutey's seat warm while he was injured?

Not to my mind, hes consistently been englands starting 12 fora year now. Fluteys place wasnt exactly secure before he got injured, he was one of the many post lions hangover players. It should also be noted that England experimented with Banahan there, which suggests their favoured approach is a big direct 12 (like Wales with Roberts)

He was in the 6 nations squad but didnt even make the bench

Flutey didnt walk back into the england side when he was fit, evn for the baa baas.That to mesays hes no longer first choice. Like Armitage he hasnt played well for a long time, and many people are suprissed to see either having made it this far into the cut.

England by 25+ points. Anything less will be a moral victory for the Taffs

rugbydreamer wrote:It would be insane to start Priestland at 10, for his first start in a Welsh shirt against England at Twickenham. He needs to be eased in, and Gats has only got 3 matches in which to do it. Wise call having him at FB, and there's no one else but Jones to cover 10 whilst Hook is injured (although I'd have preferred him to start anyway).

If S Jones gets stuffed in the first minute who do you reckon will move to 10??Think about it.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:although Flutey could force his way in there ahead of hape

Whats the deal here, wasn't Hape just keeping Flutey's seat warm while he was injured?

Not to my mind, hes consistently been englands starting 12 fora year now. Fluteys place wasnt exactly secure before he got injured, he was one of the many post lions hangover players. It should also be noted that England experimented with Banahan there, which suggests their favoured approach is a big direct 12 (like Wales with Roberts)

He was in the 6 nations squad but didnt even make the bench

Flutey didnt walk back into the england side when he was fit, evn for the baa baas.That to mesays hes no longer first choice. Like Armitage he hasnt played well for a long time, and many people are suprissed to see either having made it this far into the cut.

Is Flutey a decent option?

I have seen him, "on his day", look very talented, but I didnt see him do much for Wasps this year, and i saw a number of their games. He was picked at Flyhalf a few times too and not center.

Tuialagi is a talented player, a bit erratic and a tiny bit hot tempered, definitely better to introduce him at HQ rather than away from home.

What do you English lads think of the welsh team?

Backrow ?

Center combo ?

Back three ?