Wales 19 - 9 England : Post Match Discussion.

James Hook scored the crucial try as Wales beat England in a pulsating if error-strewn World Cup warm-up clash at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium.

Wales, who lost Gavin Henson to injury, led 6-3 after two Rhys Priestland penalties but Toby Flood levelled it.

England dominated either side of half-time but failed to unlock Wales' defence, only managing another penalty.

Wales picked themselves up to score with Hook's try just before the hour and he landed two penalties to seal it.

England failed to score a try for the first time in 14 Tests to leave manager Martin Johnson with plenty to ponder ahead of their final warm-up match against Ireland in Dublin on 27 August.

Wales head coach Warren Gatland had told his team they had to win if they hoped to be considered serious contenders for the forthcoming World Cup, and they duly ended a three-match losing streak ahead of Argentina's visit to Cardiff next Saturday.

Gatland proud of Wales win
The hosts began strongly, George North taking an innovative kick-off on the right flank to set up a first-minute penalty for Priestland.

But England replied in kind as Flood's restart fell to Nick Easter and this time Wales got on the wrong side of referee Alain Rolland for the England fly-half to level.

Jamie Roberts was a knock-on away from a sensational try from Lloyd Burns' long line-out throw as the venom with which Wales started continued unabated.

Priestland's second penalty was the reward after 10 minutes, but when Wales' early fury abated, England's forward power began to take its toll.

In a display reminiscent of Johnson's heyday as captain, England's driving line-outs and close-quarter aggression were the foundation of a territorial dominance that spanned the game's two middle quarters.

An impressive series of scrums close to the Welsh line had the hosts in all sorts of trouble and on the brink of conceding a penalty try.

But just as that moment approached, England's pack lost control of the ball and when Richard Wigglesworth launched the backline attack, Henson was equal to the challenge.

He brought down Shontayne Hape and the ball spilled into grateful Welsh hands. But after an impressive opening half-hour, Henson was forced off by injury.

England wing Matt Banahan - who came into the starting line-up after Chris Ashton failed a fitness test - looked set to score in the right corner after 13 minutes but Shane Williams brought down the towering wing and Hook stripped him of the ball as he attempted to touch down.

Johnson frustrated by England errors
Flood levelled after Wales went off their feet at a ruck and for the rest of the opening period the hosts were forced to defend.

They did so admirably even if England showed a lack of invention and cutting edge in the Welsh 22.

Flood sent Mike Tindall through a hole in midfield on a 40-metre run, but Wales again thwarted the threat close to their own line when Hape was scragged, leaving England increasingly frustrated.

The hosts reshuffled their back division at the break, Aled Brew coming on at wing, Priestland departing and Williams switching to full-back.

Roberts was sin-binned within moments of the restart for not releasing the tackler, further disrupting their back division, and Flood put England ahead for the first time.

As the contest wore on the fitness advantage Wales skipper Sam Warburton and Roberts had claimed over their opponents seemed to be true.

The hosts' attacking style drew England back and forth across the field and as the gaps appeared Wales edged closer and closer to the try-line.

Just before the hour Hook evaded Dan Cole, James Haskell and Danny Care to touch down and reclaim the lead, converting his own try.

The Perpignan-bound player added a penalty after 68 minutes and despite Wales losing scrum-half Mike Phillips to the sin-bin with nine minutes left, England could still not take advantage.

Hook landed another penalty from halfway in the final minute to send the Welsh fans home delirious, and England away with much to contemplate.

Wales: Hook, North, Roberts, Henson, Shane Williams, Priestland, Phillips; James, Burns, Mitchell, Charteris, AW Jones, Lydiate, Warburton (capt), Faletau. Replacements: Bennett (for Burns, 53), Bevington (for James, James for Mitchell, 77), Turnbull, Tipuric, Knoyle, Scott Williams (for Henson, 32), Brew (for Priestland, 41).

Yellow card: Roberts (41), Phillips (71)

England: Foden, Banahan, Tindall (capt), Hape, Cueto; Flood, Wigglesworth; Corbisiero, Thompson, Cole; Deacon, Lawes; Wood, Fourie, Easter.

Replacements: Mears (for Thompson, 59), Stevens (for Corbisiero, 59), Palmer (for Deacon, 68), Haskell (for Fourie, 50), Care (for Wigglesworth, 30), Hodgson (for Flood, 68), Armitage (for Tindall, 59, Tindall back on 74).

Referee: A Rolland (Ire)

Attendance: 73,000

What a result. On the back foot most of the game and in the end never really looked like losing. that is going to be huge for our world cup hopes. Some key players coming into a bit of form.

Thought the Phillips yellow was harsh but can't complain too much. Well done Wales and if you're an England fan how much of a blow is that?

Maybe England played so badly to lull all the other teams into a false sense of security

Rowland was very whistle happy early on, but he settled down. England deserved a penalty try and should of been awarded it.
Though I think he paid England back by carding Phillips, that was very unfair.

The blow isn't the loss it was the lack of points in the first half.

Granted Wales made 4 changes from last week and England made 12 but they should have done better with the poss/terr. I'd hope MJ used these two games to give most players a chance and next week he picks his best side. It'll b e interesting to see who gets picked.

perhaps Gatland's middle name is 'Lucky', there's no way the team he put out deserved to win that, putting out a lightweight front 5 at home against England is shocking, just good fortune on his part the England backs didn't have a clue what to do with all that possession.

All I have heard since the team was announced Thurs that Wales had no chance and most of the selection criticism came from Welsh fans.
I and a few others were a bit more confident that Wales would do OK we may have been sloppy but at least we did show we have heart the defence was superb.
Every man gave his all and we cant ask more than that.

well done to wales, just based on defence they deserved that win-thought phillips' card was harsh.

imo burns struggled, Phillips played well, as did bennet when he came on fair play to him, lydiate and warbs superb again- few silly mistakes from roberts and Toby but overall well played.

feel gutted for henson he played fairly well and him and roberts pairing was working quite well saying that scott williams looks very exciting.

on a side note; Faletau isn't up to this level yet, he looks like he needs a season or two to build himself up, Lydiate and Warbuton are the real stars there, Faletau was out of his depth, too soon for him.

Turkster wrote:on a side note; Faletau isn't up to this level yet, he looks like he needs a season or two to build himself up, Lydiate and Warbuton are the real stars there, Faletau was out of his depth, too soon for him.

i think he is a quality player and he is up to this level, he gets over the gain line and plays very well and is the best option at 8 despite his age. and your comment before about the squad? ok so may not be the strongest pack but you cant say that squad didnt deserve to win, their effort throughout the game proved that. their tackling was immense and was a huge work load and fair play to them

Well, well. I've been backing Phillips for months unlike you lot and how awesome has he been in the past 2/3 games? Like i've been saying he's our best scrum half and the only scrum half we have that causes the opposition a lot of problems.

England's problems is in the backs, which we've all known for some time. I made a suggestion that Flood and Wilkinon should play 10 and 12, maybe they can alternate too. They've also clearly missed Youngs. Banahan is in-consistent, should be a bench warmer. Steve Thompson was you best player today IMO. So here's my suggestion: Foden, Ashton, Tindall, Wilkinson, Cueto, Flood, Youngs, Haskell, Wood(or Moody), Croft, Lawes(or Palmer), Deacon, Cole, Thompson, Stevens.

For those of you slagging our pack where ever you're from, how many tries did they let in? You also forget that we have Adam Jones, Richard Hibbard, Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies, Ryan Jones to come back into the match day squad! Jones must now start at 8 and be considered first choice, Faletau has been too sloppy which is probably down to his in-experience. I also don't see how Stephen Jones will come back in with our backs looking this hot. I expect some of the above players to come back in for Argentina, if that's the case then I also expect a solid, convincing win.

I am very disappointed with the lack of penetration by England & while Wales defended well they were more than ably assisted by Englands bluntness.
Not too many positives to be taken from this game by either side playing wise.

Wales definitely needed the win after Gats prematch comments but like previous posters have said that front 5 of Wales should have been punished & Englands lack of creativity made sure it wasn't.

Turkster wrote:perhaps Gatland's middle name is 'Lucky', there's no way the team he put out deserved to win that, putting out a lightweight front 5 at home against England is shocking, just good fortune on his part the England backs didn't have a clue what to do with all that possession.

Only thing shocking for me is your insistance on still having a go at the coach even after an important win but hey, freedom of speech and all that

nottins_jones wrote:Well, well. I've been backing Phillips for months unlike you lot and how awesome has he been in the past 2/3 games? Like i've been saying he's our best scrum half and the only scrum half we have that causes the opposition a lot of problems.

It looks as though the weight of Wales has been taken off his shoulders doesnt it?
Now he's away from the Ospreys he's a lot happier and enjoying his rugby again.
Sadly he;s self destructive so will probably do something bad now an turn people against him, but on the field he was fantastic today.

For those of you slagging our pack where ever you're from, how many tries did they let in? You also forget that we have Adam Jones, Richard Hibbard, Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies, Ryan Jones to come back into the match day squad! Jones must now start at 8 and be considered first choice, Faletau has been too sloppy which is probably down to his in-experience. I also don't see how Stephen Jones will come back in with our backs looking this hot. I expect some of the above players to come back in for Argentina, if that's the case then I also expect a solid, convincing win.

how have I forgotten we've got them players to come back?


and Faletau is going to be a star.......but he's not there yet.


weird how if you think Gatland put out a lightweight front 5 and they got lucky, you're accused of treason or something.

Neutral view - If it had been in a competition then England would probably have taken their penalties and clocked up an uncatchable lead. The English set piece was totally dominant, their back row though allowed the ball to be slowed up too much. The backs just went down hill as the game progressed, it was like watching Scotland for a while but then it became even worse.

The Welsh defended well, holding the players up, turning over the ball and spoiling. Those forwards would struggle badly at the RWC, the backs though looked dangerous with very little ball. They took their chances so good luck to them.

For England, the front 5 were all good, especially Thompson and Lawes. Care looked lively. In contrast Flood looked to lose his way and Banahan deserves the kind of abuse from the English fans that we reserve for Nikki Walker - he may be big but that's about it. I hope when we play them that Banahan, Flood and Hape are all there, unfortunately I think MJ will have worked out they shouldn't be.

Wales will be better with their front row back. Faletau made a number of mistakes but also does so many good things I'd persevere (or else use Delve). The backs looked better with Hook more involved (FH not FB) and they can score the points with a bit of possession.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Turkster wrote:perhaps Gatland's middle name is 'Lucky', there's no way the team he put out deserved to win that, putting out a lightweight front 5 at home against England is shocking, just good fortune on his part the England backs didn't have a clue what to do with all that possession.

Only thing shocking for me is your insistance on still having a go at the coach even after an important win but hey, freedom of speech and all that

if England's backs knew what to do with all the possession they had we'd have lost by 20 points, but if your happy with the performance then great, we're all happy with the result but let's be a little bit realistic.

Lucky lucky Wales, Had we played against any of the tri nations and lost our setpiece so comprehensively we would have been munched. However, excellent defence, excellent at winning the breakdown and with the ball our backs looked dangerous.

Loyd Burns had a nightmare first start but with Rees' injury will probably go to the world cup behind Hibbard and Bennet. Adam and Hibbard to start next week which should improve our setpiece.

Impressed with Charteris work although AWJ had a very quiet game.

Our back row again dominated the breakdown with Warburton winning turnovers and Faletau improving every game, Lydiate proved some doubters wrong with great tackling today.

Halfbacks looked good, and Hook coming to OH fixed the English defence but again I thought Priestland did very well.

Gav did well enough for the 32 mins he was on but needs more gametime next week if hes fit. Roberts forceful in attack and defence, Lloyd Williams made a far better showing than last week in his own position.

Our back three didnt see enough ball in attack guven how starved we were for posession but defensively fine.

Englands pack must hate their backs. they provided good clean ball again and again but Flood persisted with the inside pass and failed to find any width. Faliure to bring players like Foden into the game is criminal. Even when they did make a clear line break they couldnt convert the chance. Englands backline looked better last week with Wilkinson distributing better and making sure they kept the scoreboard moving.

A good win for Wales but now we really need to see our first team come out for the first half against Argentina.

Clearly in World Cup terms, you's have to say England will go further than Wales in the World Cup. And frankly if England need to learn a lesson about taking their chances, then it's far better to learn it today against Wales in Cardiff than in a World Cup quarter final.
In a game England are dominating, Flood cant keep the score board going, Wilkinson can. That's important.

I agree with everything being said about Wales. Faletau is a brilliant player but he was dispossesed today and hopefully Ryan Jones has had another kick up the backside from being dropped for the last 3 games and will come in and have a stormer against Argentina.

Sometimes Wales win these kinds of games against England, 1993 and 1999 and 2005 are classic examples, this happens to England every few years. Total dominance but didnt turn possesion into points and blow the game.

anyone know about the wales injuries?

This game really annoyed me how many times have I seen England play like that?
Utterly uncreative.
Are they honestly only interested trying a one dimensional game, heavens knows what Ireland will do to us.
I think Banahan may well have played himself off the plane, but what’s the point of taking wingers anyway when they play like that.

I think Wellies has slipped into the same position as Martin Williams in that he's clearly been overtaken by younger players but may still make the plane, definitely time for Hook to be given the 10 jersey with Priestland as backup, Roberts kills the ball stone dead when he plays at 12, but then looks superb at 13, has Gavin Henson done enough to be on the plane and first choice at 12?

G2 wrote:This game really annoyed me how many times have I seen England play like that?
Utterly uncreative.
Are they honestly only interested trying a one dimensional game, heavens knows what Ireland will do to us.
I think Banahan may well have played himself off the plane, but what’s the point of taking wingers anyway when they play like that.

They need Wilkinson at 10 with a Mike Catt type player at inside centre, with Banahan at outside centre, to smash into defences from first phase possesion and tie in the other teams centres, so the England backs are running against forwards who have plugged the gaps.

AlynDavies wrote:

G2 wrote:This game really annoyed me how many times have I seen England play like that?
Utterly uncreative.
Are they honestly only interested trying a one dimensional game, heavens knows what Ireland will do to us.
I think Banahan may well have played himself off the plane, but what’s the point of taking wingers anyway when they play like that.

They need Wilkinson at 10 with a Mike Catt type player at inside centre, with Banahan at outside centre, to smash into defences from first phase possesion and tie in the other teams centres, so the England backs are running against forwards who have plugged the gaps.

Tuilagi is twice the player Banahan is, Banahan should be nowhere near the England squad.

Turkster wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Turkster wrote:perhaps Gatland's middle name is 'Lucky', there's no way the team he put out deserved to win that, putting out a lightweight front 5 at home against England is shocking, just good fortune on his part the England backs didn't have a clue what to do with all that possession.

Only thing shocking for me is your insistance on still having a go at the coach even after an important win but hey, freedom of speech and all that

if England's backs knew what to do with all the possession they had we'd have lost by 20 points, but if your happy with the performance then great, we're all happy with the result but let's be a little bit realistic.

All I'll say is by the end of the day we played pretty poorly but salvaged a win all the same. The pack and set-piece (except Lydiate and Warburton) were dreadful but look at it this way, we were without our first choice front row entirely, particularly our two first choice hookers. Jenkins and Jones should be back soon to steady the scrum and hopefully Hibbard and or Rees to get the lineout in order.

AlynDavies wrote:Well England totally dominant for 60 minutes and they tired and Wales had 1 attack all game and scored a try.
England want shooting, and need Wilkinson back badly, he was the difference last week, and Flood didnt keep the scoreboard ticking over.
England were toothless in attack, their only plan was to put big men on the crash ball.

Alyn, i so much agree with you about England being toothless in attack..Toby Flood was an absolute disgrace today, Johnny Wilkinson must now be Englands Fly Half.

Toby Flood will he still be in the England team come rugby world cup time, or will Charlie Hodson be Englands reserve Fly Half?

majesticimperialman wrote:Alyn, i so much agree with you about England being toothless in attack..Toby Flood was an absolute disgrace today, Johnny Wilkinson must now be Englands Fly Half.

Toby Flood will he still be in the England team come rugby world cup time, or will Charlie Hodson be Englands reserve Fly Half?

Johnson has always been a big fan of Wilko, he just needed an excuse to select him. He doesnt need an excuse at the moment, Wilko has proven himself to be a better option.

AlynDavies wrote:Clearly in World Cup terms, you's have to say England will go further than Wales in the World Cup.

I really dont think thats the case. Over the two games Wales have scored twice as many tries and won one of the matches and the aggregate score is +6 in Wales favour. We still havent seen our first team. with players like Adam Jones, Gethin, Hibbard, Bradley to come into the front five we wont be anywhere near so underpowered in the setpiece again. with Halfpenny and Byrne(possibly) to come back into contention in the backs we are starting to develop some real strength and experience in the squad as a whole

Our first choice pack is capable if winning parity (against SA and should be far stronger against the others) a backrow unit that is starting to really gel and Phillips looking better than he has for 2-3 years whilst our backs look creative and sharp.

England in contrast have pretty much sent a strong team to face a weaker Wales and have failed badly to produce the goods. their defence hasnt worked well. and their attack is a failure. Their setpice was dominant but only against an underpowered welsh forwards unit.

Actually I think Gatland will be the far happier coach tonight than Martin Johnson.

nottins_jones wrote:Well, well. I've been backing Phillips for months unlike you lot and how awesome has he been in the past 2/3 games? Like i've been saying he's our best scrum half and the only scrum half we have that causes the opposition a lot of problems.

England's problems is in the backs, which we've all known for some time. I made a suggestion that Flood and Wilkinon should play 10 and 12, maybe they can alternate too. They've also clearly missed Youngs. Banahan is in-consistent, should be a bench warmer. Steve Thompson was you best player today IMO. So here's my suggestion: Foden, Ashton, Tindall, Wilkinson, Cueto, Flood, Youngs, Haskell, Wood(or Moody), Croft, Lawes(or Palmer), Deacon, Cole, Thompson, Stevens.

For those of you slagging our pack where ever you're from, how many tries did they let in? You also forget that we have Adam Jones, Richard Hibbard, Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies, Ryan Jones to come back into the match day squad! Jones must now start at 8 and be considered first choice, Faletau has been too sloppy which is probably down to his in-experience. I also don't see how Stephen Jones will come back in with our backs looking this hot. I expect some of the above players to come back in for Argentina, if that's the case then I also expect a solid, convincing win.

Couple of things here

England
Massive possession and territory how they didnt convert when one man to the good on two seperate 10 min spell god only knows, "1st choice" Flood continued his poor form, and if "2nd choice" Wilkinson played they would have scored at least 12-15 points from his boot, and perhaps from a few tries as well.

Phillips
Last week played well, but Knoyle upped it a notch or two when he came on, so can't see where you are coming from really. This week he was very good but he got yellow carded, which on another day England might have converted some of those wasted chances. Saying that he has played the best rugby for 2 years, and I still would start him.

The Welsh Pack
was slaughtered at one stage England had nearly 76% possession, and even more territory. Charteris was immense and AWJ had his best game for ages.

Backs
Priestland had a very good game, as did Hook (perhaps his best both at FB and 10), Jones has to start against Argentina he is still a country mile ahead surely after these Wales performances anyone could see that his decision making would have affected last weeks game, and this game even. Henson whilst a massive improvement got turned over a few times and I think "Project Henson" has to be coming to an end now, he was way behind Scott Williams who again had a good game. Shane was immense in defence, North was too.

Forwards
Warbs brill, Lydiate, Charteris, Turnbull (when he came on) were very good, the front 3 for a big part of the match were slaughterd in all honesty. AWJ had his best performance and take my words back he formed a good balance with Charteris. Bennet has to start next week.

Overall summary
Wales 100% effort and passion, great defensive display,
England their "1st choice" players were very very poor, massive questions over their 2, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15 positions

so after two games your first choice 15?

mine;

1 Jenkins
2 Hibbard (Rees is out by the looks)
3 A. Jones
4 B.Davies
5 Wyn-Jones
6 Lydiate
7 Warbuton
8 Faletau, as he's the man in possession
9 Phillips
10 Hook
11 Ickle
12 Henson
13 Roberts
14 North
15 ? (maybe Byrne by default)

When it comes to appraising that Welsh performance, let's remember the saying 'you can only beat what's in front of you.' It's not Wales's fault that England were so toothless in attack. Let's give them huge credit for their defensive performance and for taking their opportunity when they got into England's 22 in the second half.

Toby Faletau struggled a bit today but he was being expected to carry off the back of a rapidly-retreating scrum. He made good ground with ball in hand in the loose.

I never thought I'd be glad that Huw Bennett was around, but with Matthew Rees in doubt for the World Cup and Lloyd Burns not having the best of games (to put it mildly), let's hope Bennett's good form continues.

If Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones aren't fit, we're sunk.

15 Lee Bryne - by default, his only challenger was Stoddard.
14 George North - best we have
13 James Hook - Tough on Scott williams to pick Hook, but we need him somewhere.
12 Jamie Roberts - hitting form again, defence and attack are fantastic.
11 Shane Williams - no problems with his defence!
10 Rhys Priestland - Wales backline have been so creative with him at 10, best for years frankly.
9 Mike Phillips - getitng back to his best, since leaving the Ospreys it seems the weight of Wales has come off his shoulders.
8 Ryan Jones - Has had a kick up the arsé, and dropped for Faletau for 3 games, but needs to come in now and perform well.
7 Sam Warburton - Man of the match today <3
6 Dan Lydiate - great work rate but needs to stop giving penalties away.
5 Bradley Davies - charteris proved to be inferious today sadly.
4 Alun-Wyn Jones - good leadership skills, we need him
3 Adam Jones - Mitchell looks like a poor mans Jones to be honest, we need him to steady the scrum.
2 Matt Rees - best we have by a mile.
1 Gethin Jenkins - mee Mitchell and Jones above for, Jenkins and James.

FHF, personally I think Wellies has been overtaken by Priestland in the OH stakes. Priestland is a seems to be a composite of Hooks attacking ability tempered with Jones distribution and sense of calm.

Honestly I hope Gatland is brave enough to bench Hook and use him as an impact sub in any of the four positions he could make an instant change.

AWJ I thought was very quiet missed one of the two tackles in the first half when the completion rate was 76 attempted 74 made. I think Henson missed the other. Charteris had a good game if anything I would like to see him play with Bradley next week.

As for project Henson well hes done enough to be on the plane. Given there are fifteen backs left in the squad I think that the fight for him is with Brew not Scott Williams. Hensons ability to play 3 positions will win that for him as I dont think gats is a brew fan.

Hibbard is fit and needs to start next week, better option than Bennett but in a world without Smiler, bennet is showing the best form Ive ever seen from him.

10 Hook
12 Henson

are you seriously saying that they played better than

10 Priestland
12 Williams

A massive imrovement in Henson but he got turned over twice, the second resulting in his injury. The 2nd half Wales display was much better than the 1st half display

I'd say about the same, maybe JD2 instead of Henson but not necessarily.

flyhalffactory wrote:Priestland had a very good game, as did Hook (perhaps his best both at FB and 10), Jones has to start against Argentina he is still a country mile ahead surely after these Wales performances anyone could see that his decision making would have affected last weeks game, and this game even.

I can't agree with that. As good a servant as Stephen Jones has been, he wasn't missed last week and he wasn't missed today.

If you dont know why he was missed, look at Wilkos display last week and compare

He was missed ............ look at what Wilkinson did when there was space on for possible running, what did he do ... yes dropped two goals at crucial times

What did you do,....... run twice (Warburton ywice) when the 6 points were on and that would have won you the game.

I rest my case

flyhalffactory wrote:10 Hook
12 Henson

are you seriously saying that they played better than

10 Priestland
12 Williams

A massive imrovement in Henson but he got turned over twice, the second resulting in his injury. The 2nd half Wales display was much better than the 1st half display

I think most Scarlets fans expected Priestland to overtake Wellies this season anyway, he has done already...Hook seems to have that 'x factor' though. Maybe a bit soon for Scott Williams, doesn't seem to have the physicality, but he's got all the skills.

flyhalffactory wrote:
Phillips
Last week played well, but Knoyle upped it a notch or two when he came on, so can't see where you are coming from really. This week he was very good but he got yellow carded, which on another day England might have converted some of those wasted chances. Saying that he has played the best rugby for 2 years, and I still would start him.

Backs
Priestland had a very good game, as did Hook (perhaps his best both at FB and 10), Jones has to start against Argentina he is still a country mile ahead surely after these Wales performances anyone could see that his decision making would have affected last weeks game, and this game even. Henson whilst a massive improvement got turned over a few times and I think "Project Henson" has to be coming to an end now, he was way behind Scott Williams who again had a good game. Shane was immense in defence, North was too.

That's fine. I didn't expect you of all posters to see where I was coming from, particulary with this crush you seem to have on Knoyle and Jones. You've really got to stop with that. Knoyle's never changed or upped a game in his short career, certainly not last week. Phillips for me has just cemented the fact that he is first choice even more so than he already had.

I'd make a few changes for Arg, our players need rest from two bruising encounters. I'm pretty sure Barnes had said England have a week off too. So perhaps Knoyle and Jones will be the starting halfbacks with Lloyd Williams on the bench.

FHF, you're assuming that Stephen Jones would have dropped two goals. I don't remember seeing him drop many goals for Wales recently. He might have done last week, he might well not have done. Either way, it's speculation and nothing more.

Since Hensons gone for a scan on a suspected broken arm discussoin on whether he desrves to be on the plane could be moot.

Unfortunately initial reports are that Henson has broken his arm. If it is true, that is a great shame. He was solid today, good in defense and distributed well, but his most important contribution was in the form of Roberts.

Roberts is an out and out 13, and he was a real handful today.

I am pretty sure Gatland and Howley have known for the last 18 months that the real weakness in the Welsh backline is at 12, hence their desperation to get Henson fit and playing well.

As for the pack - Our 2nd string front row isnt good enough to compete at the top level - we need Gethin and Adam back to full match fitness. The second row picks itself, but we have some options there now as todays pairing did OK. The backrow played well - but I dont think Felatau will start against SA.He is a terrific prospect, but he doesn't have the experience to execute under pressure and it showed today. Delve or Ryan will start against SA I think.

Lydiate and Warburton are nailed on - both had great games today.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:FHF, you're assuming that Stephen Jones would have dropped two goals. I don't remember seeing him drop many goals for Wales recently. He might have done last week, he might well not have done. Either way, it's speculation and nothing more.

Well obviously its nothing more !!............ I mean its not an hard fact is it?

Its an opinion and as its a forum site, IN MY OPINION .................... Jones would have cooled it down especially after Norths try, not gone hell for leather, changed it around at times, run the ball less, kicked over the English backs, and yes he would have gone for the 3 pts instead of RUN RUN RUN, you might think its the way to play but it don't win you games if it don't get you points. IF you HAD gone for the points instead of "headless chicken" running you just might have got 6 pts that MIGHT have won you the game, and Jones might have presented Hook with the opportunity to drop the goals


Just an opinion and mine is Jones would have done things that Priestland and Hook wouldnt have

ML wrote:Unfortunately initial reports are that Henson has broken his arm. If it is true, that is a great shame. He was solid today, good in defense and distributed well, but his most important contribution was in the form of Roberts.

Roberts is an out and out 13, and he was a real handful today.

I am pretty sure Gatland and Howley have known for the last 18 months that the real weakness in the Welsh backline is at 12, hence their desperation to get Henson fit and playing well.

As for the pack - Our 2nd string front row isnt good enough to compete at the top level - we need Gethin and Adam back to full match fitness. The second row picks itself, but we have some options there now as todays pairing did OK. The backrow played well - but I dont think Felatau will start against SA.He is a terrific prospect, but he doesn't have the experience to execute under pressure and it showed today. Delve or Ryan will start against SA I think.

Lydiate and Warburton are nailed on - both had great games today.

Roberts had an equally good game at 12 last week, if you looked at his runs Mr H wasn't involved in any of them. Henson made one tackle (just) and got turned over twice............ nice to be a romantic but it was an ok performance and nothing more

Agree with you on the two Flanker who had superb games as did Turnbull when he came on , Turnbull has to play 6 next week to see what he can do

flyhalffactory wrote:
Roberts had an equally good game at 12 last week, if you looked at his runs Mr H wasn't involved in any of them. Henson made one tackle (just) and got turned over twice............ nice to be a romantic but it was an ok performance and nothing more

Agree with you on the two Flanker who had superb games as did Turnbull when he came on , Turnbull has to play 6 next week to see what he can do

Henson's performance was OK - I don't claim more for it than that - but it is the fact that he offers something different that made the difference to the Welsh backs today. Roberts just isn't a 12 - yes he will break the gainline for you, but the move dies at 12 when he goes to ground because he cannot distribute. Using him at 13 (where he can be brought on to crash ball at more effective angles) is a much better plan - he simply causes more damage when he is in the 13 shirt. All of our other centers (Hook excepted - and I want him at 10) are hard running players, all too similar in style to one another. Roberts is the best of them, and if Henson IS out of the competition, I think our backline will stutter as it has done for the last 2 years.

Henson didnt only just make one tackle and you know it. He missed one and made 4 in the time he was on, he also challenged well at the breakdown assisting in welsh drives, he distributed well putting Toby on a run in the first couple of minutes. The tackle he "just" made he also got to his feet repisitioned and kicked downfield to relieve the pressure on the welsh line.

He was turned over once when he possibly broke his arm. Honestly it was only an ok performance but he did as much in the 32 mins he was on as Scott Williams did for the rest of the game. Henson was far better than you are inferring fhf.

I thought both yellows were harsh, I don't know what M Johnson was talking about regarding penalties not going England's way and he did not consider Wales being without a player for 20 mins! I liked Gatland's point we are letting the ref's know Wales can win as the ref tends to favour the teams with the higher pecking order!

Great defensive effort today and last week, well done S Edwards and the players. I feel these games have confirmed my thoughts that S Jones is at best the third choice 10 but I don't think Preistland is safe enough at 15 i.e.,catching the up and unders, we need a Dan Evans or Barry Davies in the squad as well as I Thomas and I Evans to beef up the forwards.

Faletau for me was worse than last week for handling, passing and control behind a retreating pack although he did some sterling tackleing, R Jones would have played today but for his calf injury.

On teletext Henson may have a broken arm, awaiting a scan it is a shame as he was playing well!

I think next week we should put out our best team injury permitting.

He didn't say penalties went Wales' way. He said that the ref reffed the breakdown different to last week and we didn't adjust on the fly. And he said it should've been a penalty try (which it probably should have).

flyhalffactory wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:FHF, you're assuming that Stephen Jones would have dropped two goals. I don't remember seeing him drop many goals for Wales recently. He might have done last week, he might well not have done. Either way, it's speculation and nothing more.

Well obviously its nothing more !!............ I mean its not an hard fact is it?

Then you shouldn't end your speculation with 'I rest my case,' should you?

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