Will Carling summed it up for England fans

willcarling Will Carling
Let's get this clear. If England win tomorrow it is a full on Test. If Wales win, it is a poxy warm up & experimental teams! ;-) #rugby

Straight from Twitter...

I saw a lot on here from both sets of fans claiming the other had a stronger team. let's face it, neither team is full strength but both have very good options. I was a bit dismayed to read some of the 'discussions'. It was beginning to look like the old nonsense from old 606.

I hope both teams come out and play the type of rugby their selection implies. I am quite excited by the Welsh backline and I hope that Roberts can get some offload going. My prediction...I think England will win but I expect a heartening Welsh performance.

Thats the nture of the beast. If we (England) win it wont be remembered as warm up game by us (think 2007), where as Wales will say its only a warm up game time to try different players etc.etc.. and if Wales win they will do the same..... But just go on and on and on and on and on about how their second string beat our (suddenly elevated to) first team

See, why was that necessary? Why is it impossible to have a thread where there aren't annoying needly comments made?

Nice post McKay - Unless there is a drubbing for one team; I can see both coaches saying "we got something out of the test match" - with home advantage and England in the ascendency in comparison to Wales's recent sludge like performances a loss for England would be a bit of a blow.

mckay1402 wrote:See, why was that necessary? Why is it impossible to have a thread where there aren't annoying needly comments made?

I agree, its pointless, a disgruntled Welsh fan could of made exactly the same needly comment

But 2007 was a warm up game, it's just that Wales showed a lack of respect towards England and its fans by selecting a weak team (a team weaker than half a pint of Brains Shandy)

This time around I'd say the Welsh team edges it in my view for experience of playing together but then again most of these players play with each other every week due to Wales only having three real teams (Dragons don't count in my book )

I personally think neither are at full strength....and yet both see this as an opportunity to trial potential test starters against quality opposition.

No doubt the managers, players and Fans will want a win...but with regards to the outcome i dont think it strictly matters.

England are checking the form of players like Flutey, armitage etc....and more importantly....blooding the likes of Tuilagi against a strong welsh back line.

Wales likewise will see how Warburtons captaincy will stand up against a strong opposition - and how he'll cope "IF" England do get the upperhand. Plus other areas.

It will be an interesting match.

but surely the time for testing players is over?

Right enough now. Otherwise it's just going to decend into us versus them. Let's have some actual rugby discussion please.

Ruby

I can't see a drubbing from either team. I certainly don't predict a repeat of the much discussed 62-5 result. I actually expect wales to open up a bit and although the backline hasn't played together as a whole Jones, Preistland and North will be well used to linking up and I can see Shane fitting in well with their movement. I know people are criticising Phillips inclusion but I think he's worth a go against Englands backrow. He's strong enough to hold them off but he does need to speed up the service otherwise our back three will be totally negated.

Sorry i started typing that ages ago when the first line was relevant...

Bath,

I would agree with you, but the selections would suggest not....how else would Armitage, FLutey, Tuilagi (ok maybe deserves his spot over tinds), Haskell at 8 be in?

Johnson is still trialling players....and judging by the noise coming out of the training camp...Tuilagi has been impressive.

Bath

Surely a warm up game is exactly the time to text players...If you test players in the six nations you get beaten and criticised for losing and there is no other time to do it.

I'm not entirely sold on Warburton as captain. I like him as a player but I'm open minded I guess so happy to see how he goes.

But the fact is English and Welsh fans are never going to agree, that’s what makes our relationship so special!

I don't believe in warm up games this is England v Wales!

winning is all that matters

BATH_BTGOG wrote:most of these players play with each other every week due to Wales only having three real teams (Dragons don't count in my book )

You should do stand-up comedy with material like that!

It's a poor England side. Could well be a blessing in disguise if MJ's poor choices are exposed.

Wales have a good opportunity to win. The problem for Wales are their half backs and hooker. The rest of their side looks pretty good.

For once surprisingly I am not really bothered if we win or lose. MJ's awful selections make me despair.

Sorry mckay it was mentioned as very tongue in cheek as i'm sure no englishman would mention the 2007 result when trying a bit of oneupmanship.

To be honest both camps will claim to got something out of this win or lose.

I think englandhave he better chance for the win due to being at home and IMO the better bench

I don't believe in warm up games this is England v Wales!

winning is all that matters

Amen to that!

I still dont see how the 101 capped Jones is a problem myself...

Yes, Hook offers something different but then we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries, I'm not sure if England do.

"we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries, I'm not sure if England do"

If it clicks....(and its a big IF) Flutey, Tuilagi, Banahan could produce alot of tries.

Thats obviously an area Johno knows we need to improve...

munkian wrote:I still dont see how the 101 capped Jones is a problem myself...

Yes, Hook offers something different but then we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries, I'm not sure if England do.

Thats the big problem in Englands side. Although Banahan acrtualy does have a decent test try scoring record I dont really see him as a lethal finishing winger by any stretch. Tuilagi scored a few at club level, but Togers were pretty rampant all round last season.
Everyone knows that Cueto couldnt score in a brothel even if he stuffed his pants with £50 notes. Armitage isnt too shabby but no Foden. Wilkinson couldnt walk in a try let alone run one in. Flutey and Care are both threats I guess. Croft and Haskell are decent threats in the pack but thats about it really.
Without a true elusive center and foden/ashton rested England look fairly impotent. They will have to work for their score certainly, it doenst strike me they have the players to just make them out of nothing posession. Whereas Wales have SWiliams on the bench.

Since Nick Easter scored 4 tries aginst Wales in the 2007 pre-RWC warm up match, does that make him England's greatest attacking threat? Will Gatland game-plan to stop the mighty Nick? Real scoring machine, that one...........

I think for both coaches the result is probably not the most important thing.

mckay1402 wrote: willcarling Will Carling
Let's get this clear. If England win tomorrow it is a full on Test. If Wales win, it is a poxy warm up & experimental teams! ;-) #rugby

Guys that will be the same for all the teams. The Ireland v Scotland game is the same. There's no doubt we all want to to win these games but let's face it none of the teams will be at a 100% in any of the games so the results have to be kept in a bit of perspective.

Munkian I can't see a halfback pairing of Phillips and Jones giving quick ball and plenty of time for the Welsh backline to strut their stuff.

Quick ball and Phillips just don't work.

Depends what the Welsh gameplan is. If it's to play expansive rugby your halfbacks will stifle that.

GeordieFalcon it's a shame MJ isn't making any effort in that area bar picking Tuilagi.

Knackeredknees I agree the English bench is good. Stronger than those starting mostly. Why aren't they starting?

BATH_BTGOG wrote:but surely the time for testing players is over?

Totally agree with this. I ask myself, what's the purpose of these warm ups? Surely its to give you the best opportunity of doing well in the world cup. In order to do well in the world cup you need a strong and settled first team, they are the ones that are going to make or break the campaign not the fringe players who won't even make the 22 for a potential quarter/semi finals.

IMO teams should be playing their first team in each warm up game so they get match sharp, bed in combinations which haven't played together since March. YOu can still use the bench to test out certain understudies but its far too late in the cycle to be changing first teams drastically, thats what the previous 4 years were for. With that in mind i'm disappointed with the selection of the England and (to a slightly lesser extent) Wales run out XV's.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler
"Although Banahan acrtualy does have a decent test try scoring record I dont really see him as a lethal finishing winger by any stretch."


I disagree with that

Prem 2010/11 - 8 tries 3rd top scorer
Prem 2009/10 - 10 tries 2nd top scorer

munkian wrote:I still dont see how the 101 capped Jones is a problem myself...

Yes, Hook offers something different but then we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries.

Er, we've scored 16 tries in our last 12 games. We've hardly been running them in for fun.

Yes but the Scarlets have with Jones at FH so where does the real problem lie? I believe it's the tactics. I think that both Phillips and Jones can be used for an open gameplan but the players have been used wrongly.

munkian wrote:
Yes, Hook offers something different but then we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries

Which "lots of other players" are these ? 16 tries in the last 12 games isn't a great record.

nottins wrote:Which "lots of other players" are these ? 16 tries in the last 12 games isn't a great record.

Agreed, I mean lets be honest scoring the same ammount of tries in the 6N as Scotland is a pretty rank achievement for a team like Wales.

Even less tries than Scotland in actual fact since that one against Ireland was a "bit dodgey"

nottins wrote:

munkian wrote:
Yes, Hook offers something different but then we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries

Which "lots of other players" are these ? 16 tries in the last 12 games isn't a great record.

In Wales's last 12 games the following have scored

Baa-Baas – NORTH, STODDART, PHILLIPS, BREW
France- no tries
Ireland – Phillips (Ball Boy & Peter Allan credited with 'assists' )
Italy – WARBURTON, Stoddart
Scotland – WILLIAMS
England – Stoddart
New Zealand – BYRNE
Fiji – PENALTY TRY
South Afica – North, HOOK
Australia – REES
New Zealand – ROBERTS
New Zealand – no tries

So, apart from Hook, 9 different players and a penalty try. This would seem to bear out “we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries”
Munkian never said we have players who can score lots of tries, or lots of players who can score lots of tries

nottins wrote:

munkian wrote:
Yes, Hook offers something different but then we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries

Which "lots of other players" are these ? 16 tries in the last 12 games isn't a great record.

I said CAPABLE.


And you don't have Ashton. Cueto's International try scoring record is hardly great is it ? Jesus, you are such a chore of person sometimes

PenfroPete wrote:
Ireland – Phillips

Really?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote: [Really?

Edit done

PenfroPete wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote: [Really?

Edit done

So as a Scotsman can we take some credit on creating that try? Maybe we should give Peter Alan a shot at fly half.

Does that ball boy have a Scottish Granny?

Yes, Hook offers something different but then we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries, I'm not sure if England do

So, apart from Hook, 9 different players and a penalty try. This would seem to bear out “we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries”

In a similair vein - from the last 12 English games

Ireland Thompson
Scotland Croft
France Foden
Italy Ashton, Cueto, Tindall, Care, Haskell
Wales Ashton
South Africa Foden
Samoa Banahan, Croft
Australia Ashton
New Zealand Hartley
Maori Armitage, Care, Ashton
Australia Youngs, Ashton
Aussie Ba-Bas – Nil Tries

So apart from Ashton, England have 11 other players that are capable of scoring tries, so it would appear that England DO have people capable of scoring tries.

Also note that 7 of the above are in the squad for Saturdays game, compared to the 6 Welsh lads, that are on your list, that are in the squad on Saturday.

Potentially (using your reasoning) England are a more potent strike force than Wales.

Just goes to show, perception and statistics don’t always match up.

Lets just hope its a good game.

Given the focus Wales have had on physical conditioning in Poland and the playing of Phillips, Jones and Roberts I reckon Wales will look to physically dominate England and play things pretty safe and hope to bash their way to a win. It would be strange/good in a way if that did happen but personally I think we will not be able to dominate England in the muscle department and once again our game plan with those guys at 9,10,12 will make us look boring in a close loss.

It would have been so much better if the 'leaked team' from the thread the other day was paying.

I think England have a well balanced midfield, whether it's first or second string it's very strong.

I also think their pack looks pretty handy.

I don't think there are to many weak points, though maybe wilko sons conservative nature will be employed, standing deep instead of flat and kicking more than passing.

That said England have some threatening guys out wide, Tuilagi, Flutey, cueto and Banahan won't mind playing a kick and chase game if wilko tries that.

beshocked wrote:Munkian I can't see a halfback pairing of Phillips and Jones giving quick ball and plenty of time for the Welsh backline to strut their stuff.

Quick ball and Phillips just don't work.

Depends what the Welsh gameplan is. If it's to play expansive rugby your halfbacks will stifle that.

GeordieFalcon it's a shame MJ isn't making any effort in that area bar picking Tuilagi.

Knackeredknees I agree the English bench is good. Stronger than those starting mostly. Why aren't they starting?

You need to watch some games before making comments based on one or two internationals, Stephen Jones has been instrumental (creative) in provding the MLs most potent attack minded side in 2010/11 season. Anyone who watched the Scarlets last two regional matches where they scored 8 tries could see that. The only issue this season with the Scarlets was their pack, fortunately the Wales side doesnt contain any of these players. He has also made the opportunities in some of the Welsh tries in the 6Ns and AIs last season. Unfortunately with Phillips poor form and Gatlands infuriating tactics (kick kick kick) it doesn't play to his strengths

Watch some games maybe

nottins wrote:

munkian wrote:
Yes, Hook offers something different but then we have lots of other players capable of scoring tries

Which "lots of other players" are these ? 16 tries in the last 12 games isn't a great record.

Jon Davies (and he was injured for a large part of last season) 3rd highest try scorer with 9 tries in the ML,
George North 4 tries in 5 games for Wales,
Stoddart has scored for Wales
Priestland is more than capable
Shane williams well say no more

They however need a platform to score, Gatlands tactics and Phillips dreadfull service will not provide that, hopefully both tactics and Phillips return to form will see the potential turned into tries