Wales 19 - 9 England : Post Match Discussion.

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James Hook scored the crucial try as Wales beat England in a pulsating if error-strewn World Cup warm-up clash at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium.

Wales, who lost Gavin Henson to injury, led 6-3 after two Rhys Priestland penalties but Toby Flood levelled it.

England dominated either side of half-time but failed to unlock Wales' defence, only managing another penalty.

Wales picked themselves up to score with Hook's try just before the hour and he landed two penalties to seal it.

England failed to score a try for the first time in 14 Tests to leave manager Martin Johnson with plenty to ponder ahead of their final warm-up match against Ireland in Dublin on 27 August.

Wales head coach Warren Gatland had told his team they had to win if they hoped to be considered serious contenders for the forthcoming World Cup, and they duly ended a three-match losing streak ahead of Argentina's visit to Cardiff next Saturday.

Gatland proud of Wales win
The hosts began strongly, George North taking an innovative kick-off on the right flank to set up a first-minute penalty for Priestland.

But England replied in kind as Flood's restart fell to Nick Easter and this time Wales got on the wrong side of referee Alain Rolland for the England fly-half to level.

Jamie Roberts was a knock-on away from a sensational try from Lloyd Burns' long line-out throw as the venom with which Wales started continued unabated.

Priestland's second penalty was the reward after 10 minutes, but when Wales' early fury abated, England's forward power began to take its toll.

In a display reminiscent of Johnson's heyday as captain, England's driving line-outs and close-quarter aggression were the foundation of a territorial dominance that spanned the game's two middle quarters.

An impressive series of scrums close to the Welsh line had the hosts in all sorts of trouble and on the brink of conceding a penalty try.

But just as that moment approached, England's pack lost control of the ball and when Richard Wigglesworth launched the backline attack, Henson was equal to the challenge.

He brought down Shontayne Hape and the ball spilled into grateful Welsh hands. But after an impressive opening half-hour, Henson was forced off by injury.

England wing Matt Banahan - who came into the starting line-up after Chris Ashton failed a fitness test - looked set to score in the right corner after 13 minutes but Shane Williams brought down the towering wing and Hook stripped him of the ball as he attempted to touch down.

Johnson frustrated by England errors
Flood levelled after Wales went off their feet at a ruck and for the rest of the opening period the hosts were forced to defend.

They did so admirably even if England showed a lack of invention and cutting edge in the Welsh 22.

Flood sent Mike Tindall through a hole in midfield on a 40-metre run, but Wales again thwarted the threat close to their own line when Hape was scragged, leaving England increasingly frustrated.

The hosts reshuffled their back division at the break, Aled Brew coming on at wing, Priestland departing and Williams switching to full-back.

Roberts was sin-binned within moments of the restart for not releasing the tackler, further disrupting their back division, and Flood put England ahead for the first time.

As the contest wore on the fitness advantage Wales skipper Sam Warburton and Roberts had claimed over their opponents seemed to be true.

The hosts' attacking style drew England back and forth across the field and as the gaps appeared Wales edged closer and closer to the try-line.

Just before the hour Hook evaded Dan Cole, James Haskell and Danny Care to touch down and reclaim the lead, converting his own try.

The Perpignan-bound player added a penalty after 68 minutes and despite Wales losing scrum-half Mike Phillips to the sin-bin with nine minutes left, England could still not take advantage.

Hook landed another penalty from halfway in the final minute to send the Welsh fans home delirious, and England away with much to contemplate.

Wales: Hook, North, Roberts, Henson, Shane Williams, Priestland, Phillips; James, Burns, Mitchell, Charteris, AW Jones, Lydiate, Warburton (capt), Faletau. Replacements: Bennett (for Burns, 53), Bevington (for James, James for Mitchell, 77), Turnbull, Tipuric, Knoyle, Scott Williams (for Henson, 32), Brew (for Priestland, 41).

Yellow card: Roberts (41), Phillips (71)

England: Foden, Banahan, Tindall (capt), Hape, Cueto; Flood, Wigglesworth; Corbisiero, Thompson, Cole; Deacon, Lawes; Wood, Fourie, Easter.

Replacements: Mears (for Thompson, 59), Stevens (for Corbisiero, 59), Palmer (for Deacon, 68), Haskell (for Fourie, 50), Care (for Wigglesworth, 30), Hodgson (for Flood, 68), Armitage (for Tindall, 59, Tindall back on 74).

Referee: A Rolland (Ire)

Attendance: 73,000

That's one game we could have done with a on form match fit Henson.
Whoever we play at 10/12 needs to have the South Africans running all over the place what I seen of them yesterday fitness could be a issue.

the good thing is from what i have seen is alot of players have put their hands up for different positions and it has given gatland some good options now

I think Hooky should play at ten simply because he has that x factor - he scares the hell out of the opposition every time he plays there and try as I might, I can't imagine Steven Jones shimmying over the line to score that try had he been playing. Plus, I though Hook's kicking was superb especially the last one which was from long range. Late post I know but just come in from work.

Right, deep breath time, and here are my thoughts on the Wales vs. England game.

12 hours or so after watching the game, and having slept on it, I am still at a bit of a loss as to how England managed to blow it so spectacularly. Having watched the game already knowing the reuslt and having read reports I paid very close attention in order to try to establish it all went wrong.

Yes, we were one dimensional. There was a lack of invention at times, but for long spells we controlled terrioty and possession and that is fairly worrying, given the fact that we failed to score a try as a result. Having said that, it is fair to say that England could have been as much as 33-6 up at half time and really should have been at very least 19-6 ahead.

However, the fact that we were not was of our own doing with the exception of Rolland failing to award what to me was a clear penalty try on 18 minutes, when England were destroying the Welsh scrum under their own posts. (I thought Rolland was excellent apart from that one decision).

The most worrying thing for England for me was a lack of intensity and dynamism. Too many times at the contact area England players ambled towards and watched as the Welsh forwards fought tooth and nail to either secure or slow down the ball. It looked as if when we were defending that the players had been told to not commit to the ruck but to maintain a strong defensive line. That is ok in principle, but if the opposition is getting clean, quick ball, they will still get across the gainline as you are reorganising, and England really need to find a balance here.

I have read on here that Stephen Jones in the Times gave Hape 1/10. The man is a complete fool. Whilst Hape has his limitations, he kept offering himself up and looked to be part of the game. In fact for me he was the most productive of England's outside backs on Saturday.

Looking at the game as a whole, I think it has shown a couple of things.

1. England will have to fight tooth and nail to get out of their pool, although I do believe they will, but are unlikely to go much further and would not beat any of the 3N's teams on this showing.

2. Wales should be worried. Credit to them for defending manfully for long periods, they were excellent in that regard. However, if you give on of the 3N's teams or Samoa that much possession and territory, they will hurt you in a way that England failed to do. Wales looked fit and strong which will serve them well, but they need to find a way of keeping a bit more ball if they are to compete with the real top teams.


Roll on next weekend and more rugby to chew the fat over.

[quote="LDCPete"]

I have read on here that Stephen Jones in the Times gave Hape 1/10. The man is a complete fool. Whilst Hape has his limitations, he kept offering himself up and looked to be part of the game. In fact for me he was the most productive of England's outside backs on Saturday.

[quote]

I'd have to disagree with this - I think Hape was very poor on Saturday. I was impressed with him in the autumn internationals as thought he carried well and did a good job defensively, but recently he has been very poor. it's a real problem for England and I'm not sure what the solution is, but Hape needs to be dropped. Do we play Flutey, based on what he did a couple of years ago, or could Tindall play 12 with Tuilagi at 13? this is something I would like to see tried. I can't see Johnson dropping Tindall (and thought he did OK against wales) especially as doubts must remain over Moody, so Tindall may well be captain. Didn't Tindall play 12 in the 2003 world cup - though him and Greenwood may have interchanged a bit?

Anyway, if we can sort out the centres - a big IF!! - then I really think the team looks good. (I'm in a positive mood today!)

nottins_jones wrote:I don't think Davies has really put his hand up for a starting spot in the team to face SA yet, seems to be quiet and average for Wales and can throw some wayward passes in the heat of the moment.

In fairness to Jon Davies, he's been playing outside Jamie Roberts and most of that time, Roberts's instructions have been to run straight and hard. JD2 hasn't seen much ball. Jamie Roberts has looked good the last few games though, so I'd like to see either him or Jon Davies playing outside Hook, with Priestland at ten.

If you look at all the Wales v England games since 2008, under Gatland and Johnson their all pretty much the same match with different endings.

2008: England 19 - 26 Wales
England in total control for much of the match at 19-9, until the 70th minute when they committ suicide and concede 2 tries in a minute and a half from Lee Bryne cutting through, then Mike Phillips charging down a Balshaw kick.
Backs to the wall win.

2009 Wales 23 - 15 England
Wales pretty much dominated this game, and a late try gave the score respectibility for England.

2010 England 30 - Wales 17
England race into a 20-3 lead just after half time, but Wales do a magnificent fight back and score 2 tries. Wales are going all out for a win with the score at 23-17, however Stephen Jones has a pass intercepted with Wales attacking and Delon Armitage and Matthew Tait passed to Haskell for his second score and seal victory.

2011 Wales 19 - 26 England
Usual story, England race into a 23-9 lead before the typical Wales come back. Stoddard scores and Wales fight back to 23-19 before Wilko seals the England win with 3 points.

2011 England 23- 19 Wales
Usual story England race into a 20-7 lead before Wales fight back, Wales come storming back with 2 tries but England hang on to win.

2011 Wales 19 - 9 England
Usual story England totally dominate but dont turn enough possession and territory into points. Wales come storming back in the last quarter and win the game.

To be honest it's pretty much the same story for years, England dominate the first 60 minutes and often run up a big lead, only for Wales come storming back. The endings are slightly different thankfully to keep things interesting.

I think some people missed the point of my comments,

I don't expect the Welsh to sing GSTQ at a rugby match, but by sitting down shows a complete lack of respect not just to England but to their fellow rugby fans.

It was a disgrace!
Do these people feel the need to sit down when the National Anthem is played on remembrance Sunday????

As for the booing during kicks, well it’s what we have come to expect at the MS over the last few years!

But apart from that the weekend was great and Cardiff is IMO the best rugby city in the world.

From an England view (at the game and haven't seen any TV coverage)

Fourie was not very impressive, seemed to make a few errors though I do remember him forcing a penalty with good ground work

Corbisiero was awful, knock ons and penalties seemed to be his contribution. Scrummaged well, but no better than I reckon Stevens or Sheridan would manage.

Flood looked well out of it - keep him in the squad (he's still better than Hodgson who still doesn't seem to be able to step up to international level). His tackling was Cooper-esque.

Easter actually played pretty well I thought

Hape was absolutely dreadful, holding the ball instead of flicking it on when there was an overlap, missing a few tackles and offering no attacking threat.

Foden and Cueto were solid enough but fairly unspectacular (Floods poor form and Hape's general rubbishness didn't help I guess)

Banahan screwed up that chance against Williams, the rest of his game was ok though (some good kicking in defence and some good takes). Not good enough though.

Tindall played well I thought. A few good breaks, wasn't caught out at all in defence.

Thompson looked good, Care looked good (why did Wigglesworth go off? Injured or subbed?), Cole looked ok, Lawes and Deacon played well, as did Palmer when he came on.

Cole - looked like he'd enjoyed one too many takeaways; stick him on a diet before the RWC.

Hape - was really bad, weak in defence poor in attack and how many times was he turned over, if Manu had played England would have scored 2 maybe 3 tries, I believe he was left on the field of play for one reason and that was to stop anyone else getting injured, if he makes the plane to NZ then I'm cleaning my boots and taking up rugby again!

Cueto - had a chance to run in a try but knew he didn't have the pace over 10m to beat the welsh defence; the whole point of a winger is to have pace! Would make the bench in my squad but wouldn't start, Sharples should have played.

Hodgson - What can you say booked his place on the Sarries team bus and not the plane to NZ, enough is enough.

Care – Took his chance well and is surely the No1 scrum half

Flood – Wilkos boot cleaner for NZ, dreadful game.

Banahan – Poor game, but wasn’t really used by England, why wasn’t the cross field kick used 6ft 7in v Little Shane? Why wasn’t he coming in off his wing running a deferent line to the rest of the England backs? Should he have beaten Williams?

Foden – did he play? Took me a while to realise he was on the field, kept running sideways.

Armitage - playing his way into starting XV.

Tindall – Looked OK but I’d just wish he would vary his game a bit, try a side step once in a while or a pass!

Lawes – needs more game time.

Thompson – Should have scored if only Hape was alert and flicked a quick pass to him.

Corbisiero – Slippery Fingers, scrumaged ok but slipped down the pecking order IMO.

Fourie - out of his depth, and a face only his mother could love.

Tindall cant vary his game, what you saw is his game. Jonno has stuck with him for too long - he was responsible for blowing a number of opportunities and he offers nothing, absolutely nothing in atack.

LDCPete wrote:
Right, deep breath time, and here are my thoughts on the Wales vs. England game.

12 hours or so after watching the game, and having slept on it, I am still at a bit of a loss as to how England managed to blow it so spectacularly. Having watched the game already knowing the reuslt and having read reports I paid very close attention in order to try to establish it all went wrong.

Yes, we were one dimensional. There was a lack of invention at times, but for long spells we controlled terrioty and possession and that is fairly worrying, given the fact that we failed to score a try as a result. Having said that, it is fair to say that England could have been as much as 33-6 up at half time and really should have been at very least 19-6 ahead.

What I don't understand is how the Sky commentators were basically praising England's tactic of illegal scrummaging.

In the first England v Wales game you had Hartley copying the Saints tactic so I thought it was just him but it seems to be a more common theme now for English scrums.

Munkian

All teams do it (cheat that is), and unless the referee picks up on it early, they push the limits of what is legal until they pinged. I think the one you are referring to where the commentators picked up on it and praised it was where Cole was driving in on Burns and basically split him and James. Totally illegal due to the angle he bored in at, but the referee didn't spot it. The silly thing is, Corbisiero already had Mitchell in trouble on the other side and was forcing him backwards, so Cole didn't need to do it, and risked getting pinged for no reason.

Interesting comment here suggesting England were trying to not show off too many back-line moves in a warm up. If so, they did a pretty good job of dissembling

munkian wrote:What I don't understand is how the Sky commentators were basically praising England's tactic of illegal scrummaging.

In the first England v Wales game you had Hartley copying the Saints tactic so I thought it was just him but it seems to be a more common theme now for English scrums.

What was illegal about it ?

Read above

Isn't this the same plan as SA?

Have NZ shot their load too soon all over the rugby world?????

I'd like to congratulate Wales on an outstanding defensive effort and making the most of the very limited attacking opportunities that they were afforded.

As an Englishman, I've never been more bemused or frustrated by an England performance. If the game was still going on, we'd still not have crossed the try line. Any other team would have been 20 points up at half time with the amount of possession we had.

I watched the Saffer v Australia match afterwards. It was infinently better.

I dont think either team can be the slightest bit happy with that performance. Wales impotent in attack but supreme in defence. England dominating possession but without a clue what to do with the bloody thing.

I fear a caning at the Aviva

Kiwireddevil wrote:Interesting comment here suggesting England were trying to not show off too many back-line moves in a warm up. If so, they did a pretty good job of dissembling

"The 7’3″ Matt Banahan was one-on-one with the 4’10″ Shane Williams"

munkian wrote:Read above

So Wales weren't cheating when they kept standing up when they were being shoved backwards ? You do realise that all sides cheat and it's not just England who were doing it in that game ?

I watched wellington v manawatu on Saturday morning and I'm confident either team would have beaten Wales and England.

They were faster and fitter than our players in the NH, so much so that my dad thought it was a league game and not union!

BATH_BTGOG wrote:I think some people missed the point of my comments,

I don't expect the Welsh to sing GSTQ at a rugby match, but by sitting down shows a complete lack of respect not just to England but to their fellow rugby fans.

It was a disgrace!
Do these people feel the need to sit down when the National Anthem is played on remembrance Sunday????

As for the booing during kicks, well it’s what we have come to expect at the MS over the last few years!

But apart from that the weekend was great and Cardiff is IMO the best rugby city in the world.

well, shame these few people upset you so much that you feel the need to have a go at every Welsh rugby fan there is about it.

cabbagesandbrussels, I don't see how Wales could have been 'impotent' in attack when, as you say, we made the most of the attacking opportunity we had in the second half.

But I agree that both sides have a lot to work on. Our set pieces were a mess.

nottins wrote:

munkian wrote:Read above

So Wales weren't cheating when they kept standing up when they were being shoved backwards ? You do realise that all sides cheat and it's not just England who were doing it in that game ?

how could they have been cheating when they were standing up whilst being pushed back through illegal scrummaging? was Phil Vickery cheating during the 1st Lions test against South Africa?

Turkster where does it say that I'm having a go at every Welsh fan?

Turkster that sounds far too much like reason to me, don't think certain posters are going to see it that way though

Wales' big worry was how their set piece completely crumbled on the day. It was awful from what I saw in the highlights. I am pleased with our defense though, and that in these last two games we've looked far more clinical. With the few chances we've had, we've scored tries, and that is a world of improvement to what we were like in the 6N's.

next step for us: secure more possession!

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Turkster where does it say that I'm having a go at every Welsh fan?

people generally get that idea when someone writes 'the Welsh'

Bath - t hink it might have been better to differentiate between "the Welsh" (as you stated) and these individuals you were sat near at the rugby, otherwise it does look like you're having a go at all of the Welsh, not just certain individuals.

Turkster wrote:

nottins wrote:

munkian wrote:Read above

So Wales weren't cheating when they kept standing up when they were being shoved backwards ? You do realise that all sides cheat and it's not just England who were doing it in that game ?

how could they have been cheating when they were standing up whilst being pushed back through illegal scrummaging? was Phil Vickery cheating during the 1st Lions test against South Africa?

The point is Turkster that England didn't scrummage illigally at every scrum, and there were occasions where they quite legally got the upper hand and the welsh front row stood up in order to try to stop being forced backwards (so in effect cheated). I think the difference is that what the Welsh did was an obvious infringement which was picked up by the referre and a penalty given, whereas Cole driving across at an angle into the hooker was not as obvious from ground level and therefore not picked up on and penalised.

For heavens sake!

'The English' don't get upset when this term is used!

Example: the BBC had to change there news coverage from the UK riots to the England Riots as 'the welsh' and 'the Scottish' were upset by this, despite there being several arrests in Cardiff for looting!

LDCPete wrote:

Turkster wrote:

nottins wrote:

munkian wrote:Read above

So Wales weren't cheating when they kept standing up when they were being shoved backwards ? You do realise that all sides cheat and it's not just England who were doing it in that game ?

how could they have been cheating when they were standing up whilst being pushed back through illegal scrummaging? was Phil Vickery cheating during the 1st Lions test against South Africa?

The point is Turkster that England didn't scrummage illigally at every scrum, and there were occasions where they quite legally got the upper hand and the welsh front row stood up in order to try to stop being forced backwards (so in effect cheated). I think the difference is that what the Welsh did was an obvious infringement which was picked up by the referre and a penalty given, whereas Cole driving across at an angle into the hooker was not as obvious from ground level and therefore not picked up on and penalised.

so, by your last sentence, my point is proven, yes?

BATH_BTGOG wrote:For heavens sake!

'The English' don't get upset when this term is used!

Example: the BBC had to change there news coverage from the UK riots to the England Riots as 'the welsh' and 'the Scottish' were upset by this, despite there being several arrests in Cardiff for looting!

There was no rioting in Scotland and Wales, Bath, so the BBC coverage was factually inaccurate to call them the UK riots.

By stating 'The Welsh' it sounds as though you are talking about the whole of Wales not just individuals, hence people think you are generalising a nation. If you don't want to be seen to do that, then perhaps be more specific

BATH_BTGOG wrote:For heavens sake!

'The English' don't get upset when this term is used!

Example: the BBC had to change there news coverage from the UK riots to the England Riots as 'the welsh' and 'the Scottish' were upset by this, despite there being several arrests in Cardiff for looting!

I'm fairly certain that if someone was making derogatory comments about 'the English' when it was just a few people involved then you'd react the same.

i've only seen the game live, not on TV - but I have to agree I thought Cole was getting done by James and kept boring in at scrum time, but James kept getting pinged instead. Cosbiesiro (sp) I thought played well in both games and had Mitchell in his pocket, which is strange as Mitchell had shown up well previously.

I thought the only time England looked dangerous was when Foden or Armatage got the ball in broken play - they seemed to play instinctively instead of to a game plan. Every other time they just tried to strangle Wales with their forwards and a physical game which wasn't needed.

I'm suprised England didn't get a pen try, but I didn't have the best view of it as was on the other side of the stadium. Otherwise can't understand why Phillips was carded and why Banaham wasn't later on.

Poor game though and not great for either team, though especially England

I'm not sure what your point is turkster, as it seemed to be that Wales couldn't have been cheating in the scrum because England were, which is patently not correct. Both teams were at various times attempting to cheat with varying degrees of success.

LDCPete wrote:I'm not sure what your point is turkster, as it seemed to be that Wales couldn't have been cheating in the scrum because England were, which is patently not correct. Both teams were at various times attempting to cheat with varying degrees of success.

and yet as you state the Welsh were penalised and the English weren't, so why has the poster brought it into the conversation and why the whinging?

[quote="rugbydreamer
There was no rioting in Scotland and Wales, Bath, so the BBC coverage was factually inaccurate to call them the UK riots.

By stating 'The Welsh' it sounds as though you are talking about the whole of Wales not just individuals, hence people think you are generalising a nation. If you don't want to be seen to do that, then perhaps be more specific [/quote]


I'm sorry I didn't catch their names!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14472218

They may have been on a smaller scale but the Welsh still had some instances of disorder.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:UK RIOTS

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14472218

They may have been on a smaller scale but the Welsh still had some instances of disorder.

Ahem, English and Welsh riots....

Plus I don't see what is so disrespectful about sitting quietly to someone elses anthem - I think being disrespectful would be booing a national anthem or talking to your mate while it's being sung. and while it's good of BATH to sing both anthems I doubt many fans expect/do that.

(I for one wanted to boo God Save the Queen as I have very strong feelings about that song, but a rugby game isn't the place for that, so I kept a respectful silence and waited for Hen Wlad to start and sung my heart out)

BATH_BTGOG wrote:[quote="rugbydreamer
There was no rioting in Scotland and Wales, Bath, so the BBC coverage was factually inaccurate to call them the UK riots.

By stating 'The Welsh' it sounds as though you are talking about the whole of Wales not just individuals, hence people think you are generalising a nation. If you don't want to be seen to do that, then perhaps be more specific

I'm sorry I didn't catch their names!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14472218

They may have been on a smaller scale but the Welsh still had some instances of disorder.

[/quote]

Not denying they had instances of disorder, Bath, but there was no rioting.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:[quote="rugbydreamer
There was no rioting in Scotland and Wales, Bath, so the BBC coverage was factually inaccurate to call them the UK riots.

By stating 'The Welsh' it sounds as though you are talking about the whole of Wales not just individuals, hence people think you are generalising a nation. If you don't want to be seen to do that, then perhaps be more specific

I'm sorry I didn't catch their names!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14472218

They may have been on a smaller scale but the Welsh still had some instances of disorder.

[/quote]

yes, 'a window smashed' really compares badly to the England riots, the only thing we can be ashamed of is how we aren't near the standard of rioting some of the English can produce.

Turkster wrote:

LDCPete wrote:I'm not sure what your point is turkster, as it seemed to be that Wales couldn't have been cheating in the scrum because England were, which is patently not correct. Both teams were at various times attempting to cheat with varying degrees of success.

and yet as you state the Welsh were penalised and the English weren't, so why has the poster brought it into the conversation and why the whinging?

How about instead of getting your knickers in a knot about what you percieve as whinging from a certain poster, we all just stick to sensibly debating the game and performances of both teams.

The Welsh were clearly not penalised on every occasion they tried to cheat, and nor were England. The point is this, England had the upper hand at the scrum, by a distance, yet failed spectacularly to capitalise on that dominance, which is a worry going forward.

Wales struggled badly at the set piece which is also a worry for them, albeit that may be slightly aleviated by the imminent return of Adam Jones at tighthead.

The thing is, I don't think either side can be really happy with their overall performances on Saturday, and they both have an awful lot of work to do in a very short space of time if they are going to make the quarter finals or beyond in the World Cup.

This was a decent thread once upon a time...

turkster, If England play like that in Dublin then I will go as far to predict there will be further English rioting...

LDCPete wrote:

The thing is, I don't think either side can be really happy with their overall performances on Saturday, and they both have an awful lot of work to do in a very short space of time if they are going to make the quarter finals or beyond in the World Cup.

Agree with that, the only positive Wales could take was their defence really. We've both got loads to work on, and only one more match now to get it right. Very tough times lie ahead.

I would go out on a limb and say that at every single ruck and every single scrum both sides are partaking in illigal play that could be penalised either way.

If England were repeatedly getting away with the same thing why didn't the Welsh captain explain it to the ref? That's his job.

Rugbydreamer, I'd say fitness more than defence. The defence wasn't really tested. Their fitness was (especially for 20mins of defending with 14 men).

LDCPete wrote:

Turkster wrote:

LDCPete wrote:I'm not sure what your point is turkster, as it seemed to be that Wales couldn't have been cheating in the scrum because England were, which is patently not correct. Both teams were at various times attempting to cheat with varying degrees of success.

and yet as you state the Welsh were penalised and the English weren't, so why has the poster brought it into the conversation and why the whinging?

How about instead of getting your knickers in a knot about what you percieve as whinging from a certain poster, we all just stick to sensibly debating the game and performances of both teams.

The Welsh were clearly not penalised on every occasion they tried to cheat, and nor were England. The point is this, England had the upper hand at the scrum, by a distance, yet failed spectacularly to capitalise on that dominance, which is a worry going forward.

Wales struggled badly at the set piece which is also a worry for them, albeit that may be slightly aleviated by the imminent return of Adam Jones at tighthead.

The thing is, I don't think either side can be really happy with their overall performances on Saturday, and they both have an awful lot of work to do in a very short space of time if they are going to make the quarter finals or beyond in the World Cup.

no knickers in a knot here pal, just fed up of the whinging. As I said immediately after the game there wasn't much in that game for either side, defence and fitness for Wales and front five domination for England, rubbish game and ending up with more problems than before it, not really worth all the conflict on here.

rugbydreamer wrote:

LDCPete wrote:

The thing is, I don't think either side can be really happy with their overall performances on Saturday, and they both have an awful lot of work to do in a very short space of time if they are going to make the quarter finals or beyond in the World Cup.

Agree with that, the only positive Wales could take was their defence really. We've both got loads to work on, and only one more match now to get it right. Very tough times lie ahead.

A lot has been said about the Welsh dynamism at the breakdown, and how they dominated England there. Whilst I agree 100% that the Welsh forwards played with far more intensity than England's you have to look at what that achieved in real terms. Ok, Wales won the match, off the back of a very good defensive effort, but to allegedly dominate the contact the area, yet have so little possession doesn't seem to really equate. Wales conceded far too many penalties for diving in off their feet, and Rolland spoke to Warburton a number of times about it.

What Wales need to do is add a bit of smartness to their play at the breakdown. Choose the right ones to fly into and go for turnovers and be a little more disciplined and efficient. If they can add that bit of intelligence, then they will be more likely to win enough ball to cause teams more problems.

but why did you want to boo GSTQ?

I'm sorry I don't understand why it’s an issue in today’s society

LDCPete wrote:

A lot has been said about the Welsh dynamism at the breakdown, and how they dominated England there. Whilst I agree 100% that the Welsh forwards played with far more intensity than England's you have to look at what that achieved in real terms. Ok, Wales won the match, off the back of a very good defensive effort, but to allegedly dominate the contact the area, yet have so little possession doesn't seem to really equate. Wales conceded far too many penalties for diving in off their feet, and Rolland spoke to Warburton a number of times about it.

What Wales need to do is add a bit of smartness to their play at the breakdown. Choose the right ones to fly into and go for turnovers and be a little more disciplined and efficient. If they can add that bit of intelligence, then they will be more likely to win enough ball to cause teams more problems.

what Wales also need to do is get their first choice front five on the pitch so they don't have to rely on turnovers for the majority of possession.