Wales 19 - 9 England : Post Match Discussion.

First topic message reminder :

James Hook scored the crucial try as Wales beat England in a pulsating if error-strewn World Cup warm-up clash at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium.

Wales, who lost Gavin Henson to injury, led 6-3 after two Rhys Priestland penalties but Toby Flood levelled it.

England dominated either side of half-time but failed to unlock Wales' defence, only managing another penalty.

Wales picked themselves up to score with Hook's try just before the hour and he landed two penalties to seal it.

England failed to score a try for the first time in 14 Tests to leave manager Martin Johnson with plenty to ponder ahead of their final warm-up match against Ireland in Dublin on 27 August.

Wales head coach Warren Gatland had told his team they had to win if they hoped to be considered serious contenders for the forthcoming World Cup, and they duly ended a three-match losing streak ahead of Argentina's visit to Cardiff next Saturday.

Gatland proud of Wales win
The hosts began strongly, George North taking an innovative kick-off on the right flank to set up a first-minute penalty for Priestland.

But England replied in kind as Flood's restart fell to Nick Easter and this time Wales got on the wrong side of referee Alain Rolland for the England fly-half to level.

Jamie Roberts was a knock-on away from a sensational try from Lloyd Burns' long line-out throw as the venom with which Wales started continued unabated.

Priestland's second penalty was the reward after 10 minutes, but when Wales' early fury abated, England's forward power began to take its toll.

In a display reminiscent of Johnson's heyday as captain, England's driving line-outs and close-quarter aggression were the foundation of a territorial dominance that spanned the game's two middle quarters.

An impressive series of scrums close to the Welsh line had the hosts in all sorts of trouble and on the brink of conceding a penalty try.

But just as that moment approached, England's pack lost control of the ball and when Richard Wigglesworth launched the backline attack, Henson was equal to the challenge.

He brought down Shontayne Hape and the ball spilled into grateful Welsh hands. But after an impressive opening half-hour, Henson was forced off by injury.

England wing Matt Banahan - who came into the starting line-up after Chris Ashton failed a fitness test - looked set to score in the right corner after 13 minutes but Shane Williams brought down the towering wing and Hook stripped him of the ball as he attempted to touch down.

Johnson frustrated by England errors
Flood levelled after Wales went off their feet at a ruck and for the rest of the opening period the hosts were forced to defend.

They did so admirably even if England showed a lack of invention and cutting edge in the Welsh 22.

Flood sent Mike Tindall through a hole in midfield on a 40-metre run, but Wales again thwarted the threat close to their own line when Hape was scragged, leaving England increasingly frustrated.

The hosts reshuffled their back division at the break, Aled Brew coming on at wing, Priestland departing and Williams switching to full-back.

Roberts was sin-binned within moments of the restart for not releasing the tackler, further disrupting their back division, and Flood put England ahead for the first time.

As the contest wore on the fitness advantage Wales skipper Sam Warburton and Roberts had claimed over their opponents seemed to be true.

The hosts' attacking style drew England back and forth across the field and as the gaps appeared Wales edged closer and closer to the try-line.

Just before the hour Hook evaded Dan Cole, James Haskell and Danny Care to touch down and reclaim the lead, converting his own try.

The Perpignan-bound player added a penalty after 68 minutes and despite Wales losing scrum-half Mike Phillips to the sin-bin with nine minutes left, England could still not take advantage.

Hook landed another penalty from halfway in the final minute to send the Welsh fans home delirious, and England away with much to contemplate.

Wales: Hook, North, Roberts, Henson, Shane Williams, Priestland, Phillips; James, Burns, Mitchell, Charteris, AW Jones, Lydiate, Warburton (capt), Faletau. Replacements: Bennett (for Burns, 53), Bevington (for James, James for Mitchell, 77), Turnbull, Tipuric, Knoyle, Scott Williams (for Henson, 32), Brew (for Priestland, 41).

Yellow card: Roberts (41), Phillips (71)

England: Foden, Banahan, Tindall (capt), Hape, Cueto; Flood, Wigglesworth; Corbisiero, Thompson, Cole; Deacon, Lawes; Wood, Fourie, Easter.

Replacements: Mears (for Thompson, 59), Stevens (for Corbisiero, 59), Palmer (for Deacon, 68), Haskell (for Fourie, 50), Care (for Wigglesworth, 30), Hodgson (for Flood, 68), Armitage (for Tindall, 59, Tindall back on 74).

Referee: A Rolland (Ire)

Attendance: 73,000

BATH_BTGOG wrote:but why did you want to boo GSTQ?

I'm sorry I don't understand why it’s an issue in today’s society

LDCPete wrote:What Wales need to do is add a bit of smartness to their play at the breakdown. Choose the right ones to fly into and go for turnovers and be a little more disciplined and efficient. If they can add that bit of intelligence, then they will be more likely to win enough ball to cause teams more problems.

True. But better to do this in RWC warm-up game than in a round of that actual tournament itself or the 6 Nations right... I swear some people are forgetting that there were a few players in the pack still learning their trade at the international circuit. The problems will be ironed out in the next game when some experience comes back in to blend with the youth. Gatland has spoken.

I think you are being harsh on one or two of the front 5 players who played for you over these 2 games turkster, and also not giving enough credit to the English guys in shirts 1 to 5.

I am not sure that Gethin would have made a huge difference to your set piece. He is a good scrummager, but so is Paul James, and in actual fact James is arguably better in the set piece. Likewise Bennett and Burns are strong scrummaging hookers, albeit their throwing can misfire at times.

The only player who I think would have made a difference for you in the scrum is Adam Jones, who is a fantastic anchor to have, but you may still have had some problems as I remember very well Corbisiero giving him no end of problems at the Madejski in the Heineken Cup last season.

Wales scrum should be fine once Jones is back, it is the lineout that needs more work I think. People always blame the thrower but there were plenty of examples on Saturday where other problems existed. There was on instance where Lydiate turned the worng way and failed to lift Charteris from behind which saw the ball then sail over his head rather than being caught. That is a training ground issue and one that really should be easily addressed.

with regards to the anthem comments (and I know I've joined in on them myself) can those comments now be taken to a new thread please to discuss anthem issues and not get in the way of the rugby debate on this thread. Ta.

Thunor - yes, fitness was definitely a boost, but I'm still going to take the defence as a plus point too, I was really pleased with it (even if England did do their best not to use any of their chances!)

Pete - We were more ferocious at the breakdown but I wouldn't have said we were predominantly more effective there then England (or not from the highlights anyway). You are right though that we need to add a bit of brains to our play in that part of the game though. If England had opted for kicks a lot of the time, they would have been able to generate a much bigger lead, and with their dominance at the set piece, I don't think Wales would have been able to come back from that.

nottins_jones wrote:

LDCPete wrote:What Wales need to do is add a bit of smartness to their play at the breakdown. Choose the right ones to fly into and go for turnovers and be a little more disciplined and efficient. If they can add that bit of intelligence, then they will be more likely to win enough ball to cause teams more problems.

True. But better to do this in RWC warm-up game than in a round of that actual tournament itself or the 6 Nations right... I swear some people are forgetting that there were a few players in the pack still learning their trade at the international circuit. The problems will be ironed out in the next game when some experience comes back in to blend with the youth. Gatland has spoken.

Who are you expecting to come back in NJ? For me Lydiate and Warburton are nailed on, so the 8 jersey may be up for grabs, likewise AWJ will start in the second row with the 4 jersey needing filling.

Who do you see as the answers for you in those shirts?

This double header has served both teams well in terms of confidence, preparation and fitness. I think that multiple matches against the same team is a fantastic preparation tool compared to different opponents.

dreamer, there was certainly nothing wrong with the defence. It did it's job. But I wouldn't say it was big plus. Perhaps you could say defence focus was very good will huge times periods of English pressure. But we got no idea how it would manage a clever attacking team.

LDCPete wrote:Who are you expecting to come back in NJ? For me Lydiate and Warburton are nailed on, so the 8 jersey may be up for grabs, likewise AWJ will start in the second row with the 4 jersey needing filling.

Who do you see as the answers for you in those shirts?

Lydiate, Warburton and Paul James are definitely nailed on. You're also probably right about AWJ. Mitchell has filled in very well but Adam's strength in the scrum was clearly missed so I'd expect him to come back in; as I'd expect Bennet to come in who's a slightly better thrower than Burns plus a better scrummager (I don't think Burns is quite there with the scrummaging on this level yet, was only playing for Pontypool a year ago). The 4 jersey can go to either of Davies or Charteris, would like to see these as a combo though for Argentina. Jones to come back in at number 8 because he's one of the best lineout jumpers and Faletau has been too sloppy. Pack would look like:

James, Bennet, Jones
Davies, AWJ
Lydiate, Jones, Warburton(c)

Bath this isn't the right place to get into it - I shouldn't have mentioned anything but it will cause lots of anti-Welsh/English posts, lots of baiting and over the top vitiriol which a rugby forum isn't the place for. I just have strong feelings about it, but would never boo someones anthem at a rugby match.

HammerofThunor wrote:dreamer, there was certainly nothing wrong with the defence. It did it's job. But I wouldn't say it was big plus. Perhaps you could say defence focus was very good will huge times periods of English pressure. But we got no idea how it would manage a clever attacking team.

To be fair, I only saw the highlights, but at times it wasn't just that we were stopping England going forward, but we were also driving them back, and we had superb defence on our own try line. True we don't know how they'll measure up against a more astute attacking side, but for sheer commitment and drive in that area of the game, tis a definite plus for me, all though I do see where you are coming from

I don't think AWJ and Charteris works as a combination NJ. Both are natural 5's and having them both in leaves the scrum a little lacking in grunt. Davies form hasn't been great, but he needs to be at 4 with one or the other of them. The other alternative is Ryan Jones at 4, but that then leaves the question of who plays at 8.

Some really impressive rolling mauls from Wales at times too, driving them right accross the pitch, dont see that often

Phillips is so strong for SH - forgot which player he forced off the ball but was impressive. Also loved him giving Cueto a pat on the cheek and Cueto going mental

LDCPete wrote:Wales scrum should be fine once Jones is back, it is the lineout that needs more work I think. People always blame the thrower but there were plenty of examples on Saturday where other problems existed. There was on instance where Lydiate turned the worng way and failed to lift Charteris from behind which saw the ball then sail over his head rather than being caught. That is a training ground issue and one that really should be easily addressed.

I thought it was strange how Chateris kept going for the front of the lineout rather than the back, and there wasn't a good understanding between jumpers and lifters, but I also noticed Burns misthrow at least 2 (jumpers seemed to be coming closer for a short throw and Burns launched it high over everyones head.

It wasn't a good day for the lineout.

I still can't believe we are all saying "Bring in Bennett, he'll steady the... scrum/lineout", he's done well but it's just too weird to be praising him after all this time!

I have to hold up my hands and say I was expecting a 10-20 thrashing by England when I saw the team, but am amazed at how well we did with so little ball, and pleased at how well Bennett did and Turnbull at lock.

LDCPete wrote:I don't think AWJ and Charteris works as a combination NJ. Both are natural 5's and having them both in leaves the scrum a little lacking in grunt. Davies form hasn't been great, but he needs to be at 4 with one or the other of them. The other alternative is Ryan Jones at 4, but that then leaves the question of who plays at 8.

Agree I would like to see one of

Chateris
Jones
Lydiate
Warbs
Faletau/Delve (not likely to happen)

or
Davies
Chateris
Lydiate
Warbs
Faletau/Jones

nottins_jones wrote:I swear some people are forgetting that there were a few players in the pack still learning their trade at the international circuit.

To be fair, the same can be said about a few players in Englands pack.

Corbisero 6 caps
Lawes 9 caps
Wood 7 caps
Fourie 7 caps.

What is Delve like as a person?

I only ask as I see no reason from a playing aspect as to why he isn't given a decent run of games for Wales.

I doubt it's because he's a horrible person that he's not playing - as Phillips, Bennett and Byrne are pretty horrible from what i've heard.

I do think that if your face fits then you're in (Bennett, Cooper, Phillips, S Jones, R Jones) and if your face doesn't then your struggling.

Also heard that the reason Gatland barely ever looks at Peel is coz Peel speaks his mind and gives his opinion on things and Gats doesn't like that (but I don't know how true that is)

Smirnoff, if that's true then it's urine-poor management, isn't it? Surely you should pick the best players whether you like them as people or not?

Luckless that's what you'd hope but Gats (and the WRU for decades) haven't got the best track record.

But saying that I don't know Delve, never met him, and haven't read much about posters saying what he's like.

rugbydreamer wrote:
There was no rioting in Scotland and Wales, Bath, so the BBC coverage was factually inaccurate to call them the UK riots.

How does that make it factually inaccurate? The riots were in the UK

oh gods I know I shouldn't respond but....


The UK riots implies that they were taking place across the whole of the UK. They weren't. They were only taking place in England. That is why it's an innacurate statement. (in my eyes anyway )

rugbydreamer wrote:oh gods I know I shouldn't respond but....
The UK riots implies that they were taking place across the whole of the UK.

If they had said UK-wide riots then there would be an issue with the statment. Nothing wrong with saying they were UK riots. They were.

What about when people complain about the mines closing and think it's only the Welsh who were affected?

Anyway, back on topic...

They didn't happen in all parts of England either so that's technically inaccurcate

rugbydreamer wrote:oh gods I know I shouldn't respond but....


The UK riots implies that they were taking place across the whole of the UK. They weren't. They were only taking place in England. That is why it's an innacurate statement. (in my eyes anyway )

by that logic the residents of wimbledon should be up in arms at the use of the term 'london riots' since it implies they were happening in every individual part of london.

They were widespread in London though...

munkian wrote:They were widespread in London though...

They were widespread in the UK as well. It strikes me as a remarkable thing to get upset about.

EDIT: the other example above mine about them not being across the whole of England probably meets your point better then.

I think its more down to if its a postive news story .ie doing well in sport - they are English. If its negative its the UK.

munkian wrote:I think its more down to if its a postive news story .ie doing well in sport - they are English. If its negative its the UK.

I think you'll find all media (from everywhere) do this kind of thing given the chance.

Or if is just the Big Bad English?

Is this still the post match discussion thread???

You opened a can of worms there Rugbydreamer!

Back on topic why was the roof shut?

It wasn't raining outside and even if it was it's more than likley it will be raining in NZ.

whenever I've watched games in MS with the roof shut it always seems to be a dullfest due to the ball being greasy (not wet)

I guess both teams must have decided they wanted it closed.

I love it closed, purely for the atmosphere. At the Heineken Final this year it was amazing, best atmosphere I've ever known in there, just think it adds something to the experience.


(and there shall be no more can opening by me! )

More of a concern than the roof at the MS is still the pitch. When are they going to get it sorted, it was cutting up in chunks again on Saturday.

I was quite surprised by how bad the pitch was on Saturday, it had seemed okay during the AI's and 6N's. Could be that it just hasn't had time to bed itself in properly after all the concerts and things that the MS has hosted over the last few months. After all it's not usual for us to play summer tests there as we are usually touring.

Didn't they say on the commentary that the pitch had been relaid something like 27 times! That can't be good.

Yes, the seating and facilities are excellent but surely the pitch is the bit where the playing happens and is the most important part of the ground?

The MS isn't purely just a rugby ground though, it holds loads of different events there, for which the pitch is very often removed completely. That's what's happened to it since the 6N's, hence why I thought maybe it just hadn't had enough time to bed in properly.

The fundamental problem is that the pitch isn't a pitch, it's a load of pallets on top of concrete. When your aim is to maximise profits rather than to provide a playing surface worthy of international sport, that's what you get. The new Wembley's another example, although that's looking (and playing) much better now if the Community Shield match is anything to go by.

rugbydreamer wrote:The MS isn't purely just a rugby ground though, it holds loads of different events there, for which the pitch is very often removed completely.

True enough. It does need to pay for itself being open for other events like concerts and I guess it's a price that has to be paid (having pretentious tosh like U2* playing there!).

*Apologies to any U2 fans out there. Actually, no I take that apology back. U2 are awful. Especially Bono

Interesting comment from Mitchell in the WM today:
"There were a lot of things going on at the scrum which some people don't understand - " Accusing England of skulduggery he said "they just kept going up and up"
Someone posted earlier as to why the Welsh captain didn't speak to the ref if he thought England were infringing, but we have never been good at speaking to refs and it's something that needs urgent addressing before the WC. Dalallgio (excuse spelling) was a master at politely speaking to refs, throughout the game, all the while putting little seeds into their brains about what the opposition were/not doing. We need to be more vocal.

Paddy, you're spot on about talking to the ref. Martin Johnson was a master at it, too. The best at getting the ref's ear currently playing is Richie McCaw - so that's another part of his game for Sam Warburton to study.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Back on topic why was the roof shut?

It wasn't raining outside and even if it was it's more than likley it will be raining in NZ.

whenever I've watched games in MS with the roof shut it always seems to be a dullfest due to the ball being greasy (not wet)

Can we also open up a new thread where BATH_BTGOG can moan about the Stadium, it's pitch, the fans, the beer, the hot-dogs, Gavin Henson, Cardiff and just the Welsh in general!

c'mon now NJ, he's entitled to his opinions, why not debate the issue with him instead of commenting like that?

People's points with regards to the pitch are spot on though, it was absolutely dreadful on Saturday.

rugbydreamer wrote:People's points with regards to the pitch are spot on though, it was absolutely dreadful on Saturday.

It was indeed. A bit embarrasing for the WRU surely that at one point there was 3 or 4 people trying to put the divots back in on one small area.

Well dreamer, the thread was meant to be about the game. Rioting somehow made it's way in and eventually they were told to take it to another thread on the rioting(and rightly so). I'm suprised you didn't tell him the same, all he's done is moan and not discuss the game. Moaning about 'the welsh', the pitch/stadium, the ball and us not singing the opposition anthem; didn't see how that was on topic. Sorry.

nottins_jones wrote:

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Back on topic why was the roof shut?

It wasn't raining outside and even if it was it's more than likley it will be raining in NZ.

whenever I've watched games in MS with the roof shut it always seems to be a dullfest due to the ball being greasy (not wet)

Can we also open up a new thread where BATH_BTGOG can moan about the Stadium, it's pitch, the fans, the beer, the hot-dogs, Gavin Henson, Cardiff and just the Welsh in general!

He only asked why the roof was shut. LDCPete was the first to mention the pitch.

nottins wrote:

He only asked why the roof was shut. LDCPete was the first to mention the pitch.

he's been whining all day.

It's all gone a bit school-yard in here. How's about people give up on the
"he said"
"No he said"
finger pointing and grow up a bit.

nottins_jones wrote:Well dreamer, the thread was meant to be about the game. Rioting somehow made it's way in and eventually they were told to take it to another thread on the rioting(and rightly so). I'm suprised you didn't tell him the same, all he's done is moan and not discuss the game. Moaning about 'the welsh', the pitch/stadium, the ball and us not singing the opposition anthem; didn't see how that was on topic. Sorry.

To be fair though NJ, things like the roof and pitch can sometimes have an affect on the match. The state of the pitch during the match is certainly worth commenting on anyway.