WHY MAYWEATHER IS A TOP 10 ALLTIMER ALREADY!!

Unbeaten for over a decade and a wonderful defensive fighter perhaps only with Ray Robinson to touch him in that regard or even Michael Nunn....Ring fighter of the year countless times and winner of over five world titles at different weights I can't think of a modern fighter who can touch this record. Considering Chavez is a near top 10 alltimer and didn't reign as long and also didn't beat three current at the time top 5 p4pers then it goes without saying that this guy belongs in an alltime top 10 list!!

First guy to beat Hatton, Beat DelaHoya at a weight that suited Oscar, Mosley and Marquez convincingly.......It's a record that can only be compared to the best.

So come on guys give Floyd his due. No matter what he's done outside the ring..This guy is a modern genius and deserves respect..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Unbeaten for over a decade and a wonderful defensive fighter perhaps only with Ray Robinson to touch him in that regard or even Michael Nunn....Ring fighter of the year countless times and winner of over five world titles at different weights I can't think of a modern fighter who can touch this record. Considering Chavez is a near top 10 alltimer and didn't reign as long and also didn't beat three current at the time top 5 p4pers then it goes without saying that this guy belongs in an alltime top 10 list!!

First guy to beat Hatton, Beat DelaHoya at a weight that suited Oscar, Mosley and Marquez convincingly.......It's a record that can only be compared to the best.

So come on guys give Floyd his due. No matter what he's done outside the ring..This guy is a modern genius and deserves respect..

I dont know about top 10 alltimer but certainly top 5 in the past 25 years. He'd have major competition with SRL, RJJ, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez, Salvador Sanchez, Tyson and Larry Holmes in that list.

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Ridiculous D4. Floyd has beaten everyone in front of him and usually the best in their respective divisions and without weight stipulations. Give credit where it's due. Outside of RJJ, there hasn't been a better fighter to lace the gloves than Floyd. To bring Calzaghe's record in comparison is peurile. Pernell is a good comparison and I'd say the closest we have to Floyd currently and Pernell would have taken Pac to the cleaners and back.

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D4thincarnation wrote:

azania wrote:Ridiculous D4. Floyd has beaten everyone in front of him and usually the best in their respective divisions and without weight stipulations. Give credit where it's due. Outside of RJJ, there hasn't been a better fighter to lace the gloves than Floyd. To bring Calzaghe's record in comparison is peurile. Pernell is a good comparison and I'd say the closest we have to Floyd currently and Pernell would have taken Pac to the cleaners and back.

So did Sven Ottke, is he better than RJJ because he has an 0?

And Calzaghe record is superior, but I don't judge on record alone that why I look at who has Floyd fought and who has he avoided.

When you look at the ATG fighters and see who they have fought and what they have done Floyd career pales in comparison.

D4. Read what I wrote. Floyd has an 0 AND beaten the best at their weight. Look at the quality of opposition between PBF and JC. And please when replying, do so withing the context of what is written. Who has Pac fought to warrant an ATG status as you are trying to elevate him to?

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Floyd beat Hatton...set the blueprint as he said. Totally schooled him before firing the best check hook I have every seen. Ricky was also the bigger man in the ring. Tszu had already been beaten by Hatton and Cotto was moving up.

Sharmba was a quality fighter. Fast, skilled and a southpaw. PBF had no problems dealing with him. Judah had just lost to Boldomir. Hatton had beaten Boldo. PBF beats them all. SSM??? Dont even go there.

PBF had one fight at LM fighting the best in that weight at his weight.....not boiling down and claiming a victory against a corpse.

Now lets see who Pac has fought since Moralles (weight drained) At LWW. Hatton.....already beaten by .... yep you guessed it. Cotto....damaged goods by then and weight drained. Oscar.....a walking corpse. Clottey...a man who lost the use of his arms and was never that skilled anyway (shows the skills of cotto who had problems with him). Now he's fighting an ancient SSM who Floyd had already schooled. Their compariative records dont stack up. Floyd by miles.

Lets not forget the beatdown PBF handed to Marquez who beat Manny in everyone's eyes bar the 3 blind men who judged the contest. And PBF is a better counter-puncher that Marquez will ever be.

Pac vs PBF? No contest. An easy win for PBF. I#d add that I have a tremendous respect for PBF and his skill-set. But he is not in PBF's league.

D4thincarnation wrote:And this thread is not about Pacquiao it is about Mayweather being a top 10 ATG, and even you have to admit he isn't

Is Floyd better than these 10?

Sugar Ray Robinson
Joe Louis
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Muhammad Ali
Eder Jofre
Gene Tunney
Roberto Duran
Sam Langford
Benny Leonard

Old timers cannot be judged by today's standards. I've seen fights of Greb, Tunney etc and tbh, they are a joke. They dont only telegraph punches, but send a carrier pidgeon. I reckon Floyd beats Duran and I say this as a person who'se second favourite boxer of all time is Duran (Ali being the 1st).

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D4thincarnation wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:And this thread is not about Pacquiao it is about Mayweather being a top 10 ATG, and even you have to admit he isn't

Is Floyd better than these 10?

Sugar Ray Robinson
Joe Louis
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Muhammad Ali
Eder Jofre
Gene Tunney
Roberto Duran
Sam Langford
Benny Leonard

Old timers cannot be judged by today's standards. I've seen fights of Greb, Tunney etc and tbh, they are a joke. They dont only telegraph punches, but send a carrier pidgeon. I reckon Floyd beats Duran and I say this as a person who'se second favourite boxer of all time is Duran (Ali being the 1st).

Are you sure you are not telling lies? You have seen Greb's fights? Don't think there is any existing footage of his fights left.

But if you do know where I could view his fight, it would be most appreciated.

But let me get this straight, you think old timers are not as good as today boxers and Floyd is at top 10 ATG, is that right?

My Apologies, not Greb, but Sharkey. I wouldn't put any pre-war fighter near the top 10 ATG. I reckon RJJ would have destroyed Joe Louis and Jack Johnson on the same night. Lets forget what Ali would have done to them.

Yeah - no-one alive today has seen Greb fight to my knowledge - there's no footage of him left that I know of.

Duran batters Floyd at LW (and Manny too IMO).

If you wish to compare records - Manny has
ATGs...
DLH
Cotto
(Hatton) maybe an ATG at LWW, maybe...
Marquez
Barrera 2
Morales 2
World champs...
Diaz, Larios, Clottey, Margarito, Solis, Julio, Ledwaba and a stack of quality fighters in the flyweight division (where, as mentioned previously, there is less exposure but PLENTY of talent).

Floyd, meanwhile, has
ATGs
DLH
(Hatton) at WW - where he was NEVER effective
Castillo 2
Corales
World champs...
Gatti, Baldomir, Judah, Corley, Mitchell, Hernandez (2 of them) and Vargas.

Now that's a great record of Floyd's as it includes 13 champions. Manny has at least 15 ex champs and I haven't bothered to count what he did below Ledwaba - ie all his early light flyweight and flyweight days (there's at least 2/3 more champions down there if I recall).
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Please don't misquote me. Floyd is a GREAT GREAT fighter and a clear ATG. If he and Manny were to fight there is an excellent argument that Floyd outboxes Manny.

However on records - Manny's is much MUCH better than Floyd's and always was.

Floyd's strengths lie in his style and his "0". He doesn't get hit often, providing an "aura" of invincibility. Castillo 1 and the split over Oscar suggest he is, like the rest of us, merely mortal. He remains, unbeaten, providing no convincing yardstick of how good he actually is.

Were Floyd to slip up at some point - it would arguably be MORE harmful to his career than retirement/a couple of fights vs lesser opposition - as he pushes himself into the ATG list as much on reputation as on record.

I thought you were retiring for good Truss? I'm not complaining that you're over here mind...

Have to disagree with Duran vs Floyd. Floyd would make him miss all day long and counter him to death. Dont get me wrong, it would be a great fight and very close with Duran ahead on the cards after the first 8 rounds. But PBD wins the rest and the decision. In a rematch PBF by a more decisife margin.

Manny was made for Duran as he is relatively easy to hit.

As for their respective records, Floyd fought them at their peak weight and when on top of their game. Not weight drained and coming off a loss or a recent heavy beating. Even Moralles was drained in his secind fight with Pac.

Well Azania - did he?

Oscar was fought coming off a retirement spell and a patch of poor performances including a dodgy decision over Sturm and a pretty comprehensive defeat to Hopkins. He retired, sensibly, then came back to beat the perpetually not-that-good Mayorga and then, about 9 months later, fights Floyd, at LMW.

Remembering that he'd just fought twice at MW, I find it a touch ironic you declare LMW to have been Oscar's natural weight and any idea that he was "on top of his game" is ludicrous. He hadn't been on top of his game since the days when he was fighting Trinidad (perhaps his best performance - absolute robbery) and Mosely.

Hatton - he fought at WW - where Hatton looked abysmal squeaking past (or maybe losing?) to Collazo.

Castillo - ignoring the first close decision - 2 wins at the natural weight, same for the Collazo win. That's it. The entire list of elite fighters on Floyd's resume - boils down to...4/5 fights.
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Manny didn't drain Morales - Morales didn't stay in condition - they fought AT fight weight. Erik's fault. Barrera wasn't weight drained on either occasion. Marquez wasn't weight drained (although a very close decision). Diaz was fought at weight. Oscar PICKED the weight of their fight - as it involved him moving down just ONE division, whilst Manny had to move up TWO (I still laugh about this - epic fail in matchmaking from ODLH). Hatton was destroyed AT LWW, coming off a "rejuvenating", "devastating" win. No weight-draining there. Cotto had to drain 3 pounds! That's not that much, nor is it why Cotto was battered.

And as to the rest of the titlists on Manny's resume - none of them were drained.
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The notion that's Floyd's fighters were "on top of their game" doesn't hold much weight - ASIDE FROM Castillo and Collazo - which are both HUGE wins.

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Oscar grew out of the WW division. MW was too much for him plus BHop is an exceptional fighter with the body punch thrown that would have felled an elephant. No disgrace there. Just a step too far for Oscar. (Tito fight was a robbery I agree). He convincingly beat Mayorga who had blasted Forrest out of there. He was no slouch. I still maintain that Oscar was on top of his game and took Strum lightly (I thought Strum won on points).

Hatton was the bigger man in the ring. Dont forget that he is a naturally bigger man than Floyd as Floyd started at superFW.

I didn't say that Pac made moralles to boil down. Much like it was Duran's afult for partying after he beat SRL, I still maintain that Moralles (and Duran) was weight drained. Also he had come through 2 wars with Barera which took a lot from both of them.

If you are a peak and well conditioned athlete, 1lb could make a huge difference. To lose 3 lbs will be a problem. Why ask Cotto to do that unless you want to fight a drained fighter?

Personally I detest catchweight fights and dont recognise the winner being legit.

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D4thincarnation wrote:Cotto vs Clottey, Cotto was 146lbs
Cotto vs Pacquiao, Cotto was 145lbs

A whole lb lighter

So why insist of the extra pound? Whats wrong with beating the champ at the proper weight....unless you want to get an unfair advantage. There should be an axterix next to Pacs victoried against Cotto and Marg.

That is an excellent point azania. One I tend to agree with. The extra pound provided needless ammunition to critics when he could have won just as well at 147.

However - its possibly because Manny was moving up from 140 - and his highest weight had been 144 on fight night - ie hydrated and sugared up "fat weight" - that he wanted the weight set slightly lower.

Not convinced that 1 pound the day before a fight makes that much difference though.

oxring wrote:That is an excellent point azania. One I tend to agree with. The extra pound provided needless ammunition to critics when he could have won just as well at 147.

However - its possibly because Manny was moving up from 140 - and his highest weight had been 144 on fight night - ie hydrated and sugared up "fat weight" - that he wanted the weight set slightly lower.

Not convinced that 1 pound the day before a fight makes that much difference though.

I dont recall Duran asking SRL to come in at 146. To be considered the best you have to beat them at their weight. I dont recall PBF asking Oscar to come down to 151. Or Oscar asking Bhop to come down to 159. They wanted to be champions at that weights and knew they hads to beat the champion....not a weight drained shadow of the champion.....inless the champ was a lazy git who partied without training.

Azania

Your memory seems to be failing you, you couldn't possibly have picked a worse example than De La Hoya taking on Hopkins, which was in fact fought at a catchweight of 156lbs, closer to the light middleweight limit than the middleweight limit. I personally can't stand catchweights and with 17 weight classes as it is they have place in todays boxing where a mere few pounds seperate some of the weights.

In 20 years time all the criticisms of Pacquiao and Mayweather will be forgotten and their records will be rated as they should be, i'll openly admit to be a huge fan of Mayweathers boxing ability and judge him solely on that. Both have been guilty of taking on easy challenges at times but history generally remembers none of this and who they beat will be the more important factor rather than who they didn't face.

imperialghosty wrote:Azania

Your memory seems to be failing you, you couldn't possibly have picked a worse example than De La Hoya taking on Hopkins, which was in fact fought at a catchweight of 156lbs, closer to the light middleweight limit than the middleweight limit. I personally can't stand catchweights and with 17 weight classes as it is they have place in todays boxing where a mere few pounds seperate some of the weights.

In 20 years time all the criticisms of Pacquiao and Mayweather will be forgotten and their records will be rated as they should be, i'll openly admit to be a huge fan of Mayweathers boxing ability and judge him solely on that. Both have been guilty of taking on easy challenges at times but history generally remembers none of this and who they beat will be the more important factor rather than who they didn't face.

Indeed it is. But it shows how good BHop is and that hook to the liver made me wince. I think history will look at Pac refusing to take the drug tests less favourably if they dont fight. Egos aside, he should have agreed to it.

In the future most of this saga will be forgotten, who's in the wrong no one really knows, we don't have the full details or know everything that's been said

imperialghosty wrote:In the future most of this saga will be forgotten, who's in the wrong no one really knows, we don't have the full details or know everything that's been said

I dont know. When people discuss why Pac and PBF didn't fight, many will say Pac refused a dope test which PBF was willing to take. Then Pac's record will be looked at and many will put an asterix nest to his name. Sad as he is very good and would make for a great fight with PBF. I think they will fight in the summer imo. PBF will take a warm up fight and they'll get it on in September. PBF to win via KO in under 10, or a very wide UD after Pac starts fast in the first 3 rounds. When PBF gets his range, its goodnight Manilla.

On the flip side people will ask why did Mayweather ask for the tests when there was no previous precedent for it

imperialghosty wrote:On the flip side people will ask why did Mayweather ask for the tests when there was no previous precedent for it

Of course. Very logical. The debate will continue as how an ex flyweight can rise in weights and increase his power (and the size of his head) without chemical aid. If Pac doesn't accept PBF's conditions of the tests, then a huge asterix will forever be on his record when analysed.

I very much doubt it will when it's fairly obvious that Pacquiao was never a genuine flyweight, he used to rehydrate ridiculous amounts in the lower divisions something he doesn't do now

imperialghosty wrote:I very much doubt it will when it's fairly obvious that Pacquiao was never a genuine flyweight, he used to rehydrate ridiculous amounts in the lower divisions something he doesn't do now

OK. Then how a featherweight can raise up the weights and increase his power, punch resistance etc (including head size), claim a fear of needles whilst having numerous tattoos on him. People will tut, raise eyebrows and question it. Admittedly I'm very cynical when it comes to drugs and sports and actually believe Pac has used PEDs. But that's just me. I believed that before the Mayweather request also.

you know what azania, what gets me is the initial response from team pacman - why all the excuses? first he is scared of needles! then there was video proof that manny took the blood tests during the buildup to the ricky hatton fight, he didn't look scared or bothered by it - never mind the obvious tatoos!! then he says the blood testing weakens him?? It's just an odd reaction to what is a simple request.

Youarethegreatest wrote:you know what azania, what gets me is the initial response from team pacman - why all the excuses? first he is scared of needles! then there was video proof that manny took the blood tests during the buildup to the ricky hatton fight, he didn't look scared or bothered by it - never mind the obvious tatoos!! then he says the blood testing weakens him?? It's just an odd reaction to what is a simple request.

Exactly. All the excuses puts doubts in the mind of everyone without any bias. Maybe its putting something in to as opposed to taking something ut of his body that weakens him. I'm sure his back is full of spots also. All very dubious to me. Having said that, he still has to train and throw the punches.

Was he such a buzzsaw of a fighter during his featherweight days?

Course - Floyd started boxing at...

Super featherweight.

Ending up at lightmiddleweight.

Still knocking people out and decking boxers - in fact, scoring more and bigger knockdowns recently than previously - eg Hatton, decking Marquez, shaking Mosley.

And the "size of his head" has dramatically increased since he started.

Face facts - the reason that you blame Manny is because, by your own admission you "believe" is taking PEDs. On no evidence.
--------------------------
If anyone cares - a good sign of steroid abuse is hypertrophy of the masseter muscle. Steriods allow general muscular hypertrophy - the masseter is important in chewing, the athlete isn't able to avoid chewing so the masseter grows.

The notion that the head grows when on anabolic steroids is false, a myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masseter
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Manny-Pacquiao-fighting-Miguel-Cotto.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sports.popcrunch.com/category/manny-pacquiao/&usg=__brr3DUKeFLuplHRtVcK4BFsUJl4=&h=594&w=470&sz=88&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=pOeKa9JQpIFZXM:&tbnh=139&tbnw=108&ei=salhTb-BE9Hxsgb3tJm5CA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmanny%2Bpacquiao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1130%26bih%3D591%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=636&vpy=238&dur=794&hovh=139&hovw=110&tx=108&ty=107&oei=salhTb-BE9Hxsgb3tJm5CA&page=1&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:0
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://misslynshue.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/floyd-mayweather-jr11.jpg&imgrefurl=http://misslynshue.com/%3Ftag%3Dfloyd-mayweather-jr-hit-with-8-charges-floyd-mayweather-face-charges-floyd-mayweather-arrested-for-beating-ex-girfriend&usg=__eG0GSmgwkCi7CjG-YSsdlcZ2onc=&h=768&w=1024&sz=92&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=hut2R1JBg3kglM:&tbnh=156&tbnw=210&ei=5qlhTcvaGouWswbLtcW5CA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfloyd%2Bmayweather%2Bjr%2Bface%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1130%26bih%3D591%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=262&vpy=249&dur=3135&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=149&ty=117&oei=5qlhTcvaGouWswbLtcW5CA&page=1&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0
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2 recent photos. Floyd has the larger masseter.

On your logic, azania, I should now accuse him of abusing PEDs.

I WILL NOT DO THIS - until either athlete tests POSITIVE, they are innocent and must remain so for sport to retain credibility.

I do, however, feel that Manny should take the test.

With regards to Harry Greb, this is the footage of him training which is believed to be pretty much the only footage of him still in circulation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQIx3Thz9Fc

Can we at least try sticking to facts instead of using baseless claims against people

There are question marks over Pacquiao at this present time but he is well within his rights to refuse the testing, whether we agree to that or not is neither here nor there and the reasons behind his refusal are fairly irrelevant.

The pair of them are supremely talented and are so far ahead of anyone else it's only to be expected we as boxing fans are annoyed for one reason or another that haven't faced off yet but who knows the future not me.

Oxring: on the subject of enlarged masseter muscles-do you think Minnie Driver could be using PEDs? This picture certainly makes me suspicious..:

http://www.celebrityrush.com/celebrity-pictures/Minnie-Driver-1210950489.jpg

Old timers cannot be judged by today's standards. I've seen fights of Greb, Tunney etc and tbh, they are a joke. They dont only telegraph punches, but send a carrier pidgeon. I reckon Floyd beats Duran and I say this as a person who'se second favourite boxer of all time is Duran (Ali being the 1st).[/quote]

Hard to take the views seriously of anyone who claims to have seen greb in action, unless you're over 100 years old you're clearly talking out of your rear end

Sorry Truss can't have him as a top ten guy yet. Without re-hashing a debate that has been done to death the reality of the situation is when a guy has emereged who many feel has a chance of beating Floyd the simple fact is Floyd has not fought him, for whatever reason. For me that leaves a massive question mark over his career, and I say that as someone who thinks he beats Manny. Until that question mark is removed I personally cannot even entertain the thought of him being a top ten P4P guy.

Sorry Truss, can't have Mayweather in a top ten, not even knocking on the door for me, yet. Simply hasn't taken on enough big challenges or been dominant enough since stepping up from Super-Featherweight, were I'll admit he was absolutely masterful. Until (and this is being pretty optimistic) he adds Pacquiao and then someone like Martinez and / or Bradley to his resume then his 'win column' simply can't match the likes of Ross, Tunney, Walker or Pep, and I'd 'only' have those guys scattered between twelfth and seventeenth as it stands.

Ultimately, he's never unified a division and, 130 lb aside (perhaps 135 lb, too), has never proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he's the best in any of the weight classes in which he's won a title. I'll accept that on natural ability and talent he has a good a claim to a top ten spot as anyone, but it's a results-based business. Let's be realistic, the last three or four years of Mayweather's career haven't lived up to expectations.

Slate me as I'm sure you will, but as it stands Mayweather's somewhere between thrity and thirty-five for me.

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D4 appreciate there were some fights of Greb's filmed but am equally as sure none of us on here have seen it, because as you rightly say it has been either lost of destroyed

With Greb all you need to do is look at his win column which contains more hall of fame boxers than anyone else to gauge his ability, difficult to rank him head to head but safe to say he's a nailed on top 5 ATG

therowley wrote:

Old timers cannot be judged by today's standards. I've seen fights of Greb, Tunney etc and tbh, they are a joke. They dont only telegraph punches, but send a carrier pidgeon. I reckon Floyd beats Duran and I say this as a person who'se second favourite boxer of all time is Duran (Ali being the 1st).

Hard to take the views seriously of anyone who claims to have seen greb in action, unless you're over 100 years old you're clearly talking out of your rear end[/quote]

I twas my mistake and an error. I have seen many footages of old timers and they are not as skilled as today's fighters. I'd go as far as to say that most decent super mids and light heavies would destroy fighters like Jack Johnson, Willard and most others. They were very good fighters.....but only in their era. The science of boxing has moved on so much it is almost a different sport.

imperialghosty wrote:Can we at least try sticking to facts instead of using baseless claims against people

There are question marks over Pacquiao at this present time but he is well within his rights to refuse the testing, whether we agree to that or not is neither here nor there and the reasons behind his refusal are fairly irrelevant.

The pair of them are supremely talented and are so far ahead of anyone else it's only to be expected we as boxing fans are annoyed for one reason or another that haven't faced off yet but who knows the future not me.

I'm not denying the skills of Pac. I simply believe PBF is head and shoulders above him in every department. Of course he was within his rights to deny the tests floyd demanded. But there were rumours prior to Floyd's demands and his refusal to take the tests in the manner Floyd would have done will be seen as dodgy. Will it cast a shadow over his career? I believe it will when people analyse why he didn't have a career defining fight with Floyd.

A case in point is Lance Armstrong. So many allegations, always denied, never failed a test but the rumours persist to the point where it more or less believed that he was juiced.

88Chris05 wrote:Sorry Truss, can't have Mayweather in a top ten, not even knocking on the door for me, yet. Simply hasn't taken on enough big challenges or been dominant enough since stepping up from Super-Featherweight, were I'll admit he was absolutely masterful. Until (and this is being pretty optimistic) he adds Pacquiao and then someone like Martinez and / or Bradley to his resume then his 'win column' simply can't match the likes of Ross, Tunney, Walker or Pep, and I'd 'only' have those guys scattered between twelfth and seventeenth as it stands.

Ultimately, he's never unified a division and, 130 lb aside (perhaps 135 lb, too), has never proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he's the best in any of the weight classes in which he's won a title. I'll accept that on natural ability and talent he has a good a claim to a top ten spot as anyone, but it's a results-based business. Let's be realistic, the last three or four years of Mayweather's career haven't lived up to expectations.

Slate me as I'm sure you will, but as it stands Mayweather's somewhere between thrity and thirty-five for me.

RJJ didn't unify his division but was head and shoulders above everyone else he didn't need to in order to be a top ATG.

RJJ did unify the Light Heavyweight division actually, again your showing yourself up time and time again.

Not sure if you believe what your saying or just saying it to provoke a reaction but the old timers are every bit the equal of todays fighters, says it all when only 2 of the guys around today are thought of in anywhere near the same regard but still fall short of the top 20.

imperialghosty wrote:RJJ did unify the Light Heavyweight division actually, again your showing yourself up time and time again.

Not sure if you believe what your saying or just saying it to provoke a reaction but the old timers are every bit the equal of todays fighters, says it all when only 2 of the guys around today are thought of in anywhere near the same regard but still fall short of the top 20.

Did he fight that Polish guy who was the other titleholder?

I disagree that old timers are today's equal. Its almost a different sport imo. They were slower, less skilled. That is not to say they didn't have the same level of talent, but the sport has moved on since then almost beyond recognition. An example I'd give is the 1070 Brazil team. They are generally considered to be the best ever team. But playing the way they did then, they wouldn't progress beyond the group stages of any world cup. But give them mopdern techniques etc, they'd still win.

Likewise old timers may have the talent, but they didn't have the skills.

Azania, Jones did unify 175 lb eventually, and besides, your point becomes a little moot as I don't consider Jones a contender for a top ten spot either; in fact, he's even further away from that honour than Mayweather is, as far as I'm concerned. Mayweather's critics can debate that he maybe hasn't made the most of his potential and abilities, but with Jones there is no such debate - he clearly didn't. Freakishly talented, but in terms of legacy and achievements he's not top ten material as far as I'm concerned, and neither is Mayweather.

The science of boxing has moved on so much it is almost a different sport.

Genuine question what do you see when you watch fights that has moved on so much. I appreciate if you go back to pre 1920 the sport and style is pretty different but post Leonard and Dempsey once fighters started using combinations, feints and upper body movement I think the style is pretty much developed and in several elements such as in fighting and upper body movement I would argue the old timers are far in front of all but the absolute elite of today.

Personally I think the sport has regressed, think the infrequency with which fighters fight, the obsession with unbeaten records and the reduced participation have all hurt the sport. Look now we have Manny and Floyd (who would compete in any era) but there is hardly anybody out there you would give even a squeak of a chance against these guys, go back to the days of Leonard, Mclarnin and even Robinson and there were any number of guys who could push them close. This suggests to me either Manny and Floyd are genre re-defining supermen or the talent pool in the sport simply isn't as deep as it has been in previous years.

Unification means holding more than one belt at a time, believe Jones held 3 of them among 4 other minor titles

therowley wrote:The science of boxing has moved on so much it is almost a different sport.

Genuine question what do you see when you watch fights that has moved on so much. I appreciate if you go back to pre 1920 the sport and style is pretty different but post Leonard and Dempsey once fighters started using combinations, feints and upper body movement I think the style is pretty much developed and in several elements such as in fighting and upper body movement I would argue the old timers are far in front of all but the absolute elite of today.

Personally I think the sport has regressed, think the infrequency with which fighters fight, the obsession with unbeaten records and the reduced participation have all hurt the sport. Look now we have Manny and Floyd (who would compete in any era) but there is hardly anybody out there you would give even a squeak of a chance against these guys, go back to the days of Leonard, Mclarnin and even Robinson and there were any number of guys who could push them close. This suggests to me either Manny and Floyd are genre re-defining supermen or the talent pool in the sport simply isn't as deep as it has been in previous years.

Sufice to say that I disagree wuth your first comment. The sport has improved in terms of overall ability and skill sets.

I agree that it has regressed in terms of it being a spectator sport for the reasons you give. The posturing of fighters and their inability to fight one another. I dont blame fighters generally for that but their managers/promotors who often have their interest as opposed to the boxer's or fan's interests. Actually the only promotor who had the fan's interest in recent times was Don King in that he delivered quality fight and his cards were stacked. Shame he is less than honest in his dealings with boxers.