is the heavyweight scene really that bad?

i've seen numerous people (myself included) state that the heavyweight scene is is dire straits at the moment, with the klitschko brothers ruling the roost and nobody else is anywhere near their level. while i don't deny the fact that at the moment they are head and shoulders above the rest, i do think it maybe overkill saying that the divison is the worst its been. it has been for the last few years (since lewis retired) a poor division, with very few competitive bouts, but i think over the next year that could change, we do have some names coming through, and some decent domestic fighters who with improvement could be in with a chance.

david haye hasn't said what he will do yet, but he could well fight on through his planned retirement to rectify his loss to wlad. we have fury doing well, chisora with some fitness improvements could get back into the fray, then there is david price who imo has the best chance of the three at winning at title. there is the cuban mike perez coming off a win in prizefighter who also looks decent. richard towers, whilst still pretty much a novice is continuing his unbeaten record and gaining experience all the time.

then we have the other top guys from the rest of the world, povetkin and chageav fighting for the WBA title, povetkin has said he will be looking for a fight with wlad after that fight, theres Stiverne who looks very impressive and has the power to KO anybody, he is vitalis WBC manatory challenger, there is chris arreola with a new lease of life, he has dropped off the weight and is keeping very active. there is unbeaten robert helenius, who continues to do well, there is tony thompson from america, adamek due to fight vitali (would like to see him against wlad as well), solis who looked good out against vitali. there are also a few of the older guys trying a last crack of the whip (mccall, kevin johnson, briggs and tua) who would make interesting fights for the younger guys.

so really is a division with wladimir, vitali, haye, fury, chisora, perez, thompson, stiverne, povektin, chageav, towers, price, arrerola, solis, helenius, mccall, johnson, briggs, tua, adamek, dimiterko, holyfield and chambers as bad as we make out. there are certainly lots of entertaining fights to be made in my eyes, and i hope im right in thinking that we should see some competive fights out there over the next 12 months.

I'd say no its not as bad as made out.

I think the main reason for the division being rated sooo poorly is probably down to under rating the Klits. Point being they are soooo dominant it makes everybody else look terrible. But instead of viewing it as K2 just being outstanding fighters alot of people like to view it more as just a lack of competition.

Ok its not exactly Ali/Foreman/Frazier type era but at the same time I don't think talent wise its completly dreadful.

In my opinion if the Klitschkos were slightly less dominant and therefore made there opponents look half decent instead of just breezing past them all OR the Klits were American which would cause a huge interest, the heavyweight seen would probably be looked on more favourably.

Even though in scenario A it would actually be weaker and scenario B it would be of the exact same standard.

could well be the case, if they had an exciting fighting they would probably get more credit as well but as it stands they only really excite the german crowd. i see wlad as the more vunerable of the two and when vitali retires i think he might get beat before he retires

Tua lost to Monty Barrett last week, so I think it's safe to say that we won't be seeing him figure in a more significant bouts in the future. Shame, as Tua is one the humblest guys in boxing . Haye could take a leaf out of his book. The guy was a class act in and out of the ring

tua wont be fighting for the world title any time soon, but i bet he could still give some of our domestic lads a tough 12 rounds, for people such as fury who are aiming for a eventual world title.

I'd agree that it's really just the sheer dominance of the K-bros that makes things look so bad. There's just no real excitement about a genuine challenge to the HW crown. Of the list:

haye, fury, chisora, perez, thompson, stiverne, povektin, chageav, towers, price, arrerola, solis, helenius, mccall, johnson, briggs, tua, adamek, dimiterko, holyfield and chambers

Haye, Arreola, Chambers, Chageav, Johnson, Briggs have all been beaten soundly. Adamek will probably be beaten too. That's most of the better names in that list gone. I think Solis was unlucky with the injury and could be a genuine challenge. Povetkin will probably get a shot soon - but if he gets beat (which is likely) then the list of challengers grows seriously thin. It would be more exciting to see the list of 2nd-tier HWs fighting it out amongst each other. Haye-Adamek and Haye-Arreloa would be great scraps for example.

As for Tyson Fury, I honestly can't see what the fuss is about. His fitness is appalling. His technique is horrific. He's slow. He'd be like a lamb to the slaughter going up against a Klitschko. I think with work he could be ok given his physical attributes, but right now he looks ragged and unprofessional. I watch a bunched of David Price fights a few weeks back and the difference between him and fury is like night and day. Price looks to have sound fundamentals. He can use his feet. He just looks so much more schooled than Fury. And he has the physical attributes. If there is any HW champion coming out of GB then it's Price. He should build his way up slowly and hope to challenge for titles as the K-bros retire.

I'm conflicted Eddy, refuse to accept the division is dead when the brothers can regularly draw 50,000 + irrespective of opponent as there are few heavies ever who could do this, perhaps Dempsey is one but others are few and far between which suggests perhaps the division is not dying but the structure and shape of it is changing from what we recognise.

However against that we have a situation, all be it understandable but still not ideal when the two best heavies in the division will never fight each other and whilst I don't follow the prospects as closely as many I get the impression the new generation are hardly an inspiring bunch, although domestically things look entertaining, Fury looks willing to fight anyone, Chisora can come again if he loses some timber and Price looks the part, so whilst these may not be future HOF'ers could be some entertaining match ups down the line

rowley wrote:I'm conflicted Eddy, refuse to accept the division is dead when the brothers can regularly draw 50,000 + irrespective of opponent as there are few heavies ever who could do this, perhaps Dempsey is one but others are few and far between which suggests perhaps the division is not dying but the structure and shape of it is changing from what we recognise.

However against that we have a situation, all be it understandable but still not ideal when the two best heavies in the division will never fight each other and whilst I don't follow the prospects as closely as many I get the impression the new generation are hardly an inspiring bunch, although domestically things look entertaining, Fury looks willing to fight anyone, Chisora can come again if he loses some timber and Price looks the part, so whilst these may not be future HOF'ers could be some entertaining match ups down the line

I believe that's hitting the nail squarely on the head.

The fan demographic is changing throughout boxing. Promoters have been keen to milk the football supporters, ( Hatton with Manchester City, the Klitschkos with Schalke, ) which come en masse throughout Europe. Also, shrewd promoters have cashed in on a sense of nationalism, ( Klitschkos, again, in Germany, plus Ottke, Beyer, Sturm, etc., ) and also in the idea that a young man like Khan can be a unifying influence. Of course, the latter two are not new, by any means, but I believe that promoters are more pro active in exploiting them than they used to be.

The trade off is probably that hardcore fans have become a bit disillusioned by it all, and feel that the boxing itself now plays second fiddle to the showbiz element, but money talks, whether we like it or not.

Ability wise this era of Heavyweight boxing really is that bad.

Oh look out! Imperial Meldrew has struck again!

Depends on what you refer to as ability. Some of the names you mentioned there I'm sure would hold their own against some of the dross that was served up in the eighties. In terms of fitness levels you can't fault the likes of the K bros, Chagaev, Povetkin etc. Compare those to lard butts like Witherspoon and Tubbs. This era is not great but nowhere near as bad as some miseries like to make out. The K bros would be a handful to any of the greats and combined they're as dominant as Lewis was and just too good for the competition out there at the moment.

D see what you mean but saying combined they are as dominant is pretty irrelevant because at the risk of stating the obvious boxing is not a team sport. I am far from as down on the brothers as many on here but even I have to admit their divide and conquer approach to the game is a little depressing, think whilst he is the more exciting of the two to watch it has probably done more harm than good Vitali returning because whilst he does nothing for me think were Wlad out there on his own the division would have benefitted from a singular dominant champion, even one as dishwater dull as he frequently is.

Rowley, agree on the brothers, their power sharing arrangement is depressing particularly for the Heavyweight division which needs a top dog. But what do ya do? Can't blame them for not fighting one another I suppose. I have a feeling the older bro might finish if he takes care of Adamek anyway.

I have to agree that it is generally the dominance of the Klitch bros that make it so unexciting at the moment. Everyone else seems so second rate that you are left with the only excitement being by how many rounds will the opposition be outpointed by. We need for the second stringers to be more active amongest themselves, clear out the deadwood and develop some real challengers as opposed to everyone queueing for a less than deserved pay day ala Haye and Ademek.

Yeah the heavyweight division has more than one problem at the minute, the lack of talent being one of the main ones at the moment.

i think the klitchsko brothers sharing a card and both fighting on the same night would be a great way to make up for them not facing each other (which i can fully understand). vitali has said this is not an option though, as they wont share a purse. vitali has already stated that 2-3 fights is the limit until he retires, adamek included in that. i think once wlad is on his own in the division and some of the contenders have battled each other to find "the best of the rest", adding to the fact that alot of these guys could still be called rookies, i see a fair few fights availible to wlad, all of which he could lose. i think in 6-12 months time david price, tyson fury, stiverne, helenius and povetkin all have a decent chance at taking wlads crown. also mike perez but he is still unproven and that is just opinion, nothing to back that up.

I don't think an argurment can be made for strenght in depth if in that list you include a 48 year old holyfield in it.

The only fight the that is worth making would be the klitchsko brothers, against each other.

I actually rate the klitchsko brothers highly and are just as good as Lewis. the rest of the contendors are poor, if Haye can get a world title and then ben shown up as a jumped up cruiser weight, then yiu have to say the heaveyweights (except the k bros) are not of a High standard. I do hold out hope for the Irish/Cuban Mike Perez though, I can see him coming on this year in leaps and bounds, and actually providing a very challanging fight for one of the K bro's, (Mike Perez really could be the great black hope).

Just as good as Lewis? Vitali proved that he wasn't just as good as an overweight, unmotivated Lewis, so I'm not so sure I agree with you there.

Fists of Fury wrote:Just as good as Lewis? Vitali proved that he wasn't just as good as an overweight, unmotivated Lewis, so I'm not so sure I agree with you there.

He was ahead on points though Fists. That's enough for some people to more or less give Vitali the win.

Fair point Tino.

Those same people probably give Taylor the win against Froch.

Mentalistic fools.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Just as good as Lewis? Vitali proved that he wasn't just as good as an overweight, unmotivated Lewis, so I'm not so sure I agree with you there.

He was ahead on points though Fists. That's enough for some people to more or less give Vitali the win.

Larry Merchant.

Bruno was ahead on points against Lewis as well so we can chalk that one off Lennox's ledger.

Who did Lennox think he was, beating these people inside the distance. If he wanted to end the fight, he should have requested that they go to the scorecards and taken his chances.

The round before it was stopped, Lewis landed the biggest punch of the fight for me, both were tiring fast, so anything could have happened, my money would have been on the more experienced fighter. It was Lennox's last fight aswell. I don't see much difference between the styles of Vitali and Golota.

Yes, it is that bad.

I doubt I would stay up until four or five in the morning to watch any heavyweight match, even if it was free.

Utterly talentless division.

have to disagree personally. its all up to tastes at the end of the day, but i dont think haye did that bad, think the reality and the post fight hype have been seperated somewhat, he did last the full twelve, he did land a few times and was never at all in serious trouble. wlad was at equal fault for a boring fight. he just made such a big deal about the fight that it didnt live upto expectations. look at all the heavyweight title fights over the years does it stand out as particulary bad?

if you take away wlads size advantage over most opponents then he is not such a fearsome opponent, he has average to good boxing skills, nothing special in the speed department, good power although devestaing and is uber cautious. i think someone such as price or fury (maybe) or even helenius (all over 6'6") should stand a decent chance, price more so with his boxing ability and power.

Fists of Fury wrote:Just as good as Lewis? Vitali proved that he wasn't just as good as an overweight, unmotivated Lewis, so I'm not so sure I agree with you there.

The fight was stopped in the 7th round due to the cut, at the time
Klitschko was leading 58–56 on all three judges' scorecards.

The fight should have been stopped in the 5th or at latest 6th round due to the cut, (compare Klitschko's cut in those rounds and every one who knows anything about boxing would say it was a dangerous cut then in round 4/5 and should have been stopped), if it was stopped then, as it should have been, Klitschko would have been declared winner (if it was the same Doctor that was in the Khan V McCloskey fight, it would have been stopped in the third).

So in my opinion I think Klitschko was robbed in that fight against Lewis by the Doctor allowing the fight to continue to the first round after scorecards wouldn't be used and then stopping it. So therefore in my opinion Klitschko is just as good a heavyweight as Lewis was.

Anyone who knows anything about boxing knows what you have said about the scorecards is wrong.

Kingshu wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Just as good as Lewis? Vitali proved that he wasn't just as good as an overweight, unmotivated Lewis, so I'm not so sure I agree with you there.

The fight was stopped in the 7th round due to the cut, at the time
Klitschko was leading 58–56 on all three judges' scorecards.

The fight should have been stopped in the 5th or at latest 6th round due to the cut, (compare Klitschko's cut in those rounds and every one who knows anything about boxing would say it was a dangerous cut then in round 4/5 and should have been stopped), if it was stopped then, as it should have been, Klitschko would have been declared winner (if it was the same Doctor that was in the Khan V McCloskey fight, it would have been stopped in the third).

So in my opinion I think Klitschko was robbed in that fight against Lewis by the Doctor allowing the fight to continue to the first round after scorecards wouldn't be used and then stopping it. So therefore in my opinion Klitschko is just as good a heavyweight as Lewis was.

Hold on a minute though, it means he would have won due to being up on the scorecards when a cut appeared, that doesn't make him just as good. Lewis was old, fat and past caring at that stage, Vitali was Young and hungry. What does Vitali have that Andrew Golota doesn't? (except crackin low blows.

Kingshu, the cut was caused by a punch, therefore the scorecards dont come into play. The scenario you are describing would only be the case if the cut was caused accidently by a clash of heads.

Kingshu, sober up mate and try again tomorrow.

I'm sick of hearing about how Vitali was 'robbed' against Lewis. It's an absolute shambles of a myth which somehow keeps snowballing as time goes by. Regardless of when the fight was stopped due to the cut, it wouldn't have gone to the scorecards because it was a punch which opened the cut, not an accidental clash of heads.

"But Vitali was ahead at the time of the stoppage" is getting seriously tiresome. Was this the first fight in history where someone was stopped despite being ahead on points at the time? They way some people go on, you'd think it was. Scorecards are only relevant if the fight goes the distance. Lewis beat Vitali, simple as that - and I should add that he was on his way to turning the tide in that fight for me. Have a look at the way Vitali totters back to his corner at the end of round six, and the way he was hanging on for dear life throughout that round.

I also think it was only a matter of time before Lewis ripped one of those huge uppercuts in again, the tide was turning for me also, in Lewis favour.

88Chris05 wrote: - and I should add that he was on his way to turning the tide in that fight for me. Have a look at the way Vitali totters back to his corner at the end of round six, and the way he was hanging on for dear life throughout that round.

Chris with all due respect you should not add this as the points you have rightly raised previous to this render this an irrelevance, does not matter whether Lewis was turning the fight round or blowing out of his backside, he opened the cut with punches, worked on it with punches and worsened it to the point where a stoppage was inevitable, unavoidable and perfectly correct. Was and is a valid win and valid method of victory, everything else, such as how the fight would have continued, who was coming on, who would have won had the fight gone on is pure speculation and for me is irrelevant.

Fair point Jeff, just annoys me a little when people make out as if Lewis was taking the tanning of a lifetime before the ringside doctor conspired to 'rob' Vitali. As you say, it's an irrelevance really, though it still bugs me to a degree.

Can see your point Chris, whenever a fighter is stopped when ahead the popular myth tends to grow they were a country mile in front when their opponent finds a hail mary shot or good fortune, the popular telling of Froch Taylor is exactly the same, to listen to folk you would think Froch had not won a round when the reality is from the fourth on the fight was competitive, as reflected by the cards. However as been said countless times, never let the truth get in the way of a good story

rowley wrote:

88Chris05 wrote: - and I should add that he was on his way to turning the tide in that fight for me. Have a look at the way Vitali totters back to his corner at the end of round six, and the way he was hanging on for dear life throughout that round.

Chris with all due respect you should not add this as the points you have rightly raised previous to this render this an irrelevance, does not matter whether Lewis was turning the fight round or blowing out of his backside, he opened the cut with punches, worked on it with punches and worsened it to the point where a stoppage was inevitable, unavoidable and perfectly correct. Was and is a valid win and valid method of victory, everything else, such as how the fight would have continued, who was coming on, who would have won had the fight gone on is pure speculation and for me is irrelevant.

Good point Jeff, the cut was made and then worked on, it wasn't bad enough to be stopped when it first happened and even then Lewis takes the victory as it wasn't a clash of heads. It's one of the worst cuts i've seen, looked like he had half the towel stuffed in it.

Its irrelevant in terms of the result, but the performance in fights is generally relevant and often debated. I dont think the fact Lewis was behind on the cards should be dismissed, even if it has no bearing on the final result.

i think chris does have a point, lewis was definetly turning the fight around anyway, never seen such a big punch as the uppercut he landed, and i think he would have won anyway. plus as rowley said, its not who was winning, its who lands the punch that KOs or stops your opponent continuing.

Fair enough about the cut being a punch rather than clash of heads, my mistake on this rule.

Lewis won it fine, but a win on cuts isn't a win that silences the doubters in my book, and with Klitschko being ahead on the scorecards at the time, still leaves the debate to who was better very much open to debate.

I'll say then that Lewis won is fairly and I stand corrected on that point, but it wasn't a convincing win that put to bed the question who was better.

I still think V Klitschko has been as good a Heavyweight as Lewis, and would have one a rematch.
A Prime Lewis and prime Klitschko, would be a draw in my books.

i dont see any difference from a cut to a KO, both are punches powerful enough to stop your opponent. and lewis was well out of his prime, 5 years earlier he would win at a canter

King I was always a little ambivalent about a rematch to be honest, obviously felt the excitement of the first fight and the ending justified it but Lewis was 38 at the time and given the fight would have been a good six months down the line have to think at that age and based on the fact Vitali is a decent heavyweight Lewis was always going to have a tough time and so possible the rematch creates as many questions as it answers, also what happens if Vitali wins the rematch, do they have a third with Lewis pushing 40, if they keep fighting at that age inevitable father time begins to play a role sooner or later.

Do feel for Vitali as losing the fight in that nature and not getting a chance of revenge must have burnt but can totally understand why Lewis walked away.

The thing is Kingshu, an overweight and underprepared Lewis against a fully fit and at his peak Vitali, regardless of the result, was never really going to be a true indicator of who the better boxer was / is. Lewis has the win in his column though, and ultimately it's hard to deny that his career represents a considerably better one than Vitali's does. I personally think that Vitali is a very fine fighter, who'd be a contender in any era. However, having watched the two of them box countless times, it's clear (to me at least) that Lewis was the far greater and more complete fighter. As much as I respect Vitali, to put him on an equal footing with Lennox is a little fanciful, for my money.

Gonna echo Chris

An old, out of shape and poorly motivated Lewis gave as good as he got from a fit, prime and highly motivated Klitschko.

Take "prime vs prime" and i'm sorry, but Lewis dismantles him and probably gives him such a beating he either wins by a massively wide UD or the ref saves him from further punishment late

In the end i don't think the result affected Vitali's career anyway, it was his performance in the fight that counted. Surely he knows he didn't face a prime Lewis. He had a lot of respect for Lewis in a recent interview and said he was still the best he has faced by far.

I personally don't see a lot of difference between Vitali and Andrew Golota. Using this i think Lewis wins easy in his prime but i don't think Vitali would be blasted out early.

I have to agree with Chris to a point, I think that Vitali would have won a rematch, but this would have been against a well past prime Lewis.

A prime Lewis V Prime Vitali will always be debated and no one is ever going to know the correct answer. so I'll leave it at that.

It isn't the first time it's come up on 606 and prob not even the first time on V2

We can all agree however that Lewis would beat (fairly easily) Wladimir Klitschko,

Certainly dont agree that a younger Lewis hands out some kind savage beating to Klitschko. Wishful thinking methinks. I think he wins a careful UD boxing in a more cautious way intent on beating Klitschko to the jab from distance. Think Vitali has enough durability to make Lewis uncomfortable now and again but lacks the overall skills and finesse to prevent himself being outboxed. I dont rate either Klitschko as highly as many do on here but think he still represents a step up from most of what Lewis faced over his career and wouldnt have him any worse than the likes of Mavrovic, Tua or Mercer for instance who went the distance with Lewis and he has the size and durability to make Lewis have to box clever.

The preparation issue works both ways, both had to take the fight at short notice so while its fair to say Klitschko might have been more motivated in the circumstances I dont really think its correct to try and insinuate that he was 100% prepared and focused while Lewis was barely bothered. Too many excuses are made for Lewis losing or looking flaky. At the end of the day it was a world title fight so Lewis has to take the resbonsibility for his own condition.

Kingshu wrote:A prime Lewis V Prime Vitali will always be debated and no one is ever going to know the correct answer. so I'll leave it at that.

It isn't the first time it's come up on 606 and prob not even the first time on V2

We can all agree however that Lewis would beat (fairly easily) Wladimir Klitschko,

Dear god.

Union Cane wrote:
Dear god.

Capitalising prime?

Super D Boon wrote:Oh look out! Imperial Meldrew has struck again!

You mean the fact we have a division dominated by two good but not great fighters, we've had in the past fighters like Marciano, Dempsey and Tyson dominate against admittedly weaker opposition than say Louis or Ali but dominate by themselves they did while looking far better doing it against better fighters than your Chagaevs or Hayes of the world.

by the time vitali has retired i think the heavyweight scene will look completely different. i think there will be 3 different world champions (vitalis WBC belt, the WBA and wlad). think the competition will fierce up once the young guys think there is a chance at the title and at least 4-5 serious contenders will emerge from the rest. probably povetkin, solis, price, striveme and helenius. i hope im right at least.