is the heavyweight scene really that bad?

First topic message reminder :

i've seen numerous people (myself included) state that the heavyweight scene is is dire straits at the moment, with the klitschko brothers ruling the roost and nobody else is anywhere near their level. while i don't deny the fact that at the moment they are head and shoulders above the rest, i do think it maybe overkill saying that the divison is the worst its been. it has been for the last few years (since lewis retired) a poor division, with very few competitive bouts, but i think over the next year that could change, we do have some names coming through, and some decent domestic fighters who with improvement could be in with a chance.

david haye hasn't said what he will do yet, but he could well fight on through his planned retirement to rectify his loss to wlad. we have fury doing well, chisora with some fitness improvements could get back into the fray, then there is david price who imo has the best chance of the three at winning at title. there is the cuban mike perez coming off a win in prizefighter who also looks decent. richard towers, whilst still pretty much a novice is continuing his unbeaten record and gaining experience all the time.

then we have the other top guys from the rest of the world, povetkin and chageav fighting for the WBA title, povetkin has said he will be looking for a fight with wlad after that fight, theres Stiverne who looks very impressive and has the power to KO anybody, he is vitalis WBC manatory challenger, there is chris arreola with a new lease of life, he has dropped off the weight and is keeping very active. there is unbeaten robert helenius, who continues to do well, there is tony thompson from america, adamek due to fight vitali (would like to see him against wlad as well), solis who looked good out against vitali. there are also a few of the older guys trying a last crack of the whip (mccall, kevin johnson, briggs and tua) who would make interesting fights for the younger guys.

so really is a division with wladimir, vitali, haye, fury, chisora, perez, thompson, stiverne, povektin, chageav, towers, price, arrerola, solis, helenius, mccall, johnson, briggs, tua, adamek, dimiterko, holyfield and chambers as bad as we make out. there are certainly lots of entertaining fights to be made in my eyes, and i hope im right in thinking that we should see some competive fights out there over the next 12 months.

Colonial Lion wrote:Certainly dont agree that a younger Lewis hands out some kind savage beating to Klitschko. Wishful thinking methinks. I think he wins a careful UD boxing in a more cautious way intent on beating Klitschko to the jab from distance. Think Vitali has enough durability to make Lewis uncomfortable now and again but lacks the overall skills and finesse to prevent himself being outboxed. I dont rate either Klitschko as highly as many do on here but think he still represents a step up from most of what Lewis faced over his career and wouldnt have him any worse than the likes of Mavrovic, Tua or Mercer for instance who went the distance with Lewis and he has the size and durability to make Lewis have to box clever.

The preparation issue works both ways, both had to take the fight at short notice so while its fair to say Klitschko might have been more motivated in the circumstances I dont really think its correct to try and insinuate that he was 100% prepared and focused while Lewis was barely bothered. Too many excuses are made for Lewis losing or looking flaky. At the end of the day it was a world title fight so Lewis has to take the resbonsibility for his own condition.

Lets take the absolute best of Lewis and put him in with the absolute best of Vitali and I can only see a one sided beating, yes he went the distance against Tua and Mavrovic but with those two we know that Tua is a brutal puncher who hits as hard as almost anyone in history while we know having seen the fight that Mavrovic has an ungodly chin made of pure granite so the performances are understandable. Against Vitali I see it going very much like the Mavrovic fight but what we don't know is if he can take that sort of punishment for round after round, he hasn't got the power to make Lewis as cautious as he was against Tua which was still a masterclass of boxing nor do I see him having the variety of punch to trouble Lewis in any way. It either goes to the scorecards after a very one sided 12 rounds or it gets stopped at any time, Vitali has a great chin but we don't know how great it is, we only have 6 rounds against an ill prepared, fat, past his best Lewis to go on.

I dont have any doubts over Vitalis chin. He took Lewis bests shots, took heavy shots off Sanders. Power wise I think he more than capable of knocking Lewis out. I dont think he hits any less poweful than Rahman or McCall and had Lewis wobbled in the second round of their fight.

To be honest, we have Vitalis entire career to go on and hes never been down and has a very high stoppage ratio so the question marks in those departments are largely removed for me. He may not hit as hard as Tua but he hits hard enough to knock Lewis out in my opinion.

If Lewis shows up fully focused to the job at hand I would see it going a similar route to the Mavrovice fight. Boxes his way to a hard fought but clear decision.

Or a stoppage on a horrific cut?

Fists of Fury wrote:Or a stoppage on a horrific cut?

Or gets knocked out within 5 rounds?

If we take the whole career of Vitali then we can assume that Lewis doesn't take it as lightly as either McCall or Rahman whom in the latter case I think does hit harder than Vitali. It's all well and good taking punches from Sanders who lets admit it doesn't punch near the level of Lewis nor does an ageing version of him. Would bet my house on Lewis knocking him out within 8 rounds.

To be fair to the orginal poster the question of the article is 'is the heavyweight scene really that bad?'

What has Lewis got to do with the current heavyweight scene, Back on topic, I thnik besides the klitschko brothers, it is poor at the moment, if Audrey Harrison can get a shot at teh heaveyweight title speaks volumes about the lack of class in it at present. However there are a number of younger boxers that may make it exciting again.

Lewis gives us an indication of the level that Vitali is at and he's widely regarded to be the better brother which overall suggests that they're good but not great, below them it's a very sad state of affairs.

Colonial Lion wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Or a stoppage on a horrific cut?

Or gets knocked out within 5 rounds?

Which of those is true, and actually happened, and which of those didn't even look like happening? I'll take my suggestion, I think!

Not a fan of Lennox, Colonial?

Im not sure what the suggestion Lewis didnt hit as hard later on is based on. I think Klitschko showed he was able to take some heavy shots that would floor many other heavyweights. Hes limited and I dont think he has the overall skills to hope to outbox a Lewis thats at his best. But he durable and poweful enough to knock Lewis out so he represents a threat. I also think he better than the likes of Mavrovic and the vast majority of Lewis' opponents, if not in terms of pure skills then in a combination of other factors.

I see it going to the cards with an outside chance of being stopped on cuts again. But cant see it being a comfortable fight for Lewis.

I just don't see anything about Vitali that suggests he stands a chance against Lewis and being overweight affects every part of your game including technique, fitness and overall conditioning which in itself will therefore affect your punching power. He may be better than Mavrovic but we don't know if he can take a sustained beating for 12 rounds against a fully prepared Lewis, he did for 6 rounds against an ill prepared Lewis which isn't a great indicator for me. Like assuming that Frazier beats Ali based on a past his best Ali.

I wouldn't see it being easy by any means, but I think Lewis had the skill, and almost equally as importantly the size, in which to deal with Vitali reasonably effectively.

116-112/117-111 or stoppage on cuts.

Fists of Fury wrote:

Colonial Lion wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Or a stoppage on a horrific cut?

Or gets knocked out within 5 rounds?

Which of those is true, and actually happened, and which of those didn't even look like happening? I'll take my suggestion, I think!

Not a fan of Lennox, Colonial?

My point was that Lewis was knocked out before within 5 rounds so are we entitled to speculate on that too?

I like Lewis well enough but think hes overrated by many on these boards, which isnt all that surpriseing given its predominantly British. But given that there is an article every other day leading one to believe that the likes of Dempsey, Jeffries, Fitzsimmons or Marciano were rather useless I do find think Lennox seems to enjoy a cushy status relative to his own career.

We can speculate on it but when they fought it didn't happen though did it?

Gosh hasn't this grown.

I think people make too big a deal about Vitali/Lewis. There's an argument to say Lewis was fat and old but also an argument to say Vitali was green and not yet at his peak as difficult as that may be to measure.

You could say Lewis was lucky and Vitali unlucky with the cut but the fight did warrant a rematch, not that Lewis had to give one and he obviously decided not too. Either way both were good/great fighters.

Lewis is the better of the two though and would win probably 7.5 times out of ten against either K bro.

i think any boxer with a half decent punch, a good chin, fit enough to go the full 12 rounds at a decent pace and the size to nulify the height advantage stands a great chance at the klitchsko's, added into that lewis punch variation, and actually boxing skill, plus his experience i think he wins vitali most nights.

also i'd like to add, i think vitali was in his prime when he fought lewis, whereas lewis was not.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I just don't see anything about Vitali that suggests he stands a chance against Lewis and being overweight affects every part of your game including technique, fitness and overall conditioning which in itself will therefore affect your punching power. He may be better than Mavrovic but we don't know if he can take a sustained beating for 12 rounds against a fully prepared Lewis, he did for 6 rounds against an ill prepared Lewis which isn't a great indicator for me. Like assuming that Frazier beats Ali based on a past his best Ali.

Well I dont think he takes a sustained beating for 12 rounds which is the crux of it. I would expect him to have his chin tested reasonably often which I think hes capable of taking. If he lets Lewis tee off on him with hayemakers at will, then ys its unlikely to go the distance but I would expect it to be more of a boxing match, especially with both fighters more familiar with each other and with proper training camps.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:We can speculate on it but when they fought it didn't happen though did it?

Yes but that doesnt mean it couldnt potentially happen were they to fight again. Unless you assume that Vitali loses to Lewis by cuts in the 6th round 100% of time they ever fight.

On what grounds could you that Vitali was green, he was a 32 year old former WBO title holder who fought better fighters before Lewis than he did after?

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Colonial.

Colonial Lion wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:We can speculate on it but when they fought it didn't happen though did it?

Yes but that doesnt mean it couldnt potentially happen were they to fight again. Unless you assume that Vitali loses to Lewis by cuts in the 6th round 100% of time they ever fight.

No but we have something to go on to say it's very unlikely to ever happen.

Lewis was knocked out twice within 5 rounds by lesser fighters than Klitschko and in the fight they did have he was wobbling and hanging on as early as the second round from a punch by Klitschko so I dont think its as far fetched as made out. I dont see it being it probably, but I dont see a TKO 6 being the most probable result either.

So we take the worst of Lewis against the best of Vitali and base are predictions on that then, you mention Dempsey for instance but unlike Lewis he never has the Flynn knockout used against him which seems to always happen against Lewis.

the way i look at it, they had one fight which lewis won. it was his last fight in which he was the heavyest he has been in his career. vitali was a last minute opponent (vitali at that point was in training anyway and always stayed fit). lewis has the better record, and i dont think there is any department which you can conclusvely say vitali was better (apart from perhaps chin wise). therefore with the limited tools to come to a decision who is the better vitali or lewis, you have to say lewis. hard luck to vitali for not getting a rematch to prove any different but thats life.

To get back on topic....

I think there's another major issue with the HW scene atm (this is also K-bro related). Because of the lack of challengers and the need for the Klitschkos to find opponents, HW fighters are being given their title shots before they're ready. Normally up and coming fighters would fight at least 4 or 5 top 10-15 fighters before getting a title shot. But currently as soon as a contender looks good in any way they get touted to be the next Kiltschko opponent. Contenders can be forced to fight the top 2 guys in the division before they have proper experience. Look at Chisora - he wins the British title and Wlad wants to fight him. Arreola was in no way ready for Vitali. You can see the same thing happening with Helenius soon. Fighters feel as if they can't not take the fight because it's a title shot and because it would probably be the biggest payday of their career. As the Klitschko's beat all the top contenders of the day they are forced to look further and further down the scale. And because there are 2 of them then the top challengers are dispensed with at twice the rate (rarely would a fighter fight both Wlad and Vitali - once they are beaten by one they largely become irrelevant in terms of fighting the other). Some people slated Povetkin for avoiding Wlad. I think he was smart. He wasn't ready. Teddy Atlas knew this. Povetkin is doing the right thing in fighting Chagaev. Still, if he beats Chagaev he'll probably have to fight Wlad and will probably lose.

Basically the thinness of potential title challengers means that up and comers will be unlikely to be allowed the time to gain experience. I'm not saying that given more experience contenders would definitely be able to beat a Klitschko. But the lack of opportunity for contenders to mature simply perpetuates the gulf between the K-bros and the rest.

The Flynn knock out occured before Dempsey was even contender material though. Lewis was a world champion for both his knock out defeats which makes them far less excuseable to me.

Boxthis to pick up on your point though when a fighter such as Povetkin says he isn't ready and takes his time he gets accused of being a ducker, bit of a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. I can never quite decide with the brothers, particularly Wlad whether they offer the fights to the likes of Chisora because they the cupboard is so bare at heavyweight or whether they like to deal with them before they mature into a genuine threat, as I'm feeling charitible will say it is the former.

Dear god can we not get through a heavyweight thread without someone having a dig at Dempsey, am beginning to feel sorry for the old guy.

Can't say I agree with that, using the Flynn fight we could say that any better boxer is capable of knocking him out which is ludicrous, will for once stick up for the modern fighters here who always seem to have these things used against them more than the old timers.

Why is it ludicrous? Around the time Dempsey was knocked out by Flynn he was about 21 and was barely ranked. He had struggled to a draw not long before to the B list black fighter Lester Johnson. Its perfectly reasonable to say a better boxer than Flynn would have been capable of knocking him out at that stage in his career. A whole host of fighters would have been capable of beating that version of Dempsey.

However its obvious he was nowhere near his peak then and improved dramatically in the next couple of years. He was never knocked out during his championship years.

Lewis was knocked out as a reigning world champion as opposed to a young prospect. The fact he was knocked out twice by mediocre fighters during his championship years means it not that unreasonable to say better fighters could also.

A more modern example would be Pacquiao or Khan who despite suffering stoppage defeats as relative novices, its barely held against them now with the recognition they are much improved fighters.

box this, think you hit the nail on the head. contenders are been rushed though, and because of the two of them this is happening at twice the rate.
they need time to develop, problem been, who do wlad and vitali fight? think rowley got it right to, its both they want a challenge but try and get in early and beat them whilst there green. the should both cut weight and move to cruiserweight. or even lightheavy. on that bombshell of knowledge i wish you all good night and god bless

Personally feel it's double standards to make excuses for Dempsey being knocked out but then doing the same for Lewis regardless of the background to it while you may mention Pacquiao he went on to prove why he was knocked out as did Lewis by beating superior fighters to Rahman and McCall.

I dont see how its double standards. One fighter got knocked out by an average fighter when he was a youngster and years away from winning a title. The other got knocked out during his championship years to average fighters. Theres no comparison for me as the context is completely different.

The argument that Lewis beat better fighters isnt really the issue as the debate wasnt whether or not he was capable of rising above the Rahman/McCall level. We know he was. However it doesnt disguise that during his world championship years he was still capable of losing to that kind of level. The same isnt true for Dempsey.

I'll have to disagree and leave it there.

There's no doubt that Dempsey should be allowed a little more leeway for the Flynn loss than Lewis should for the McCall and Rahman disasters, primarily for the reasons that Colonial has outlined. Lewis' career up until that point should really have taken him to a maturity and level of experience which should have made those kind of losses (particularly two of them) an impossibility, whereas Dempsey clearly hadn't had such experience when Flynn flattened him (and that's not even going in to the rumours that the fight was not on a level).

I do agree with you Ghosty in the sense that we probably shouldn't ignore Dempsey's early defeats completely, but comparing them to Lewis' darker moments doesn't really sit right with me.

Not so much a question of ignoring the defeats, as to understanding their context. Have never believed the Flynn fight was a fix personally as Dempsey maintained to his dying day it was legitimate. If we look at Dempseys form at the time its also clear he was far from the fighter he would later become as he was also struggling with the likes of Meehan and Norton at the time.

Dont really understand the one size fits all approach to losses. Im sure most people are more than happy to take the post championship career losses of the likes of Duran or Charles as having very little bearing on their peaks and likewise with Dempsey, its pretty clear that he was way off his championship peak when he lost to Flynn or Meehan. As Lewis was actually a world title holder when he was knocked out its far worse in my opinion.

a fighter can get knocked out at any moment in time, especially at heavyweight. its how you come back from those fights that makes the champion great. i dont think an unbeaten record makes you a good fighter, its how you adapt, look at naz, a great fighter beaten and quits boxing. he will never become a top ATG because of the way he handled his defeat.