Declan Kidney! ! !

I could be wrong here so if i am pleasse correct me, The RWC is not far away and DK as been given a new 4 year contract.

Now if you remember Eddie O'Sulivan was given the same just before 2007 RWC, When Ireland made a swift exit from the tournament.

Ireland have not won a game in all the warm up games this august, So if Ireland get knocked out of this years RWC will the same happen too DK?
Or will the IRISH RFU, just except that they(Ireland)was never going to win it any way and leave DK'S contract alone?

Nope. I think Deccie was given a 1 year extension (might be 2) as was the rest of the coaches bar Gaffney

He was given two years....

Let's relax a little bit with the criticism. We've been awful recently but we should judge everyone after the world cup, not before it. I must admit any confidence I had that we would beat Australia has evaporated now though. Tri-Nations champions versus rudderless us. Not going to be pretty by the looks of things

As for Deccie, he won us the grand slam and won Munster two Heineken cups. Everyone might not agree with me, but I think he's the most successful Irish coach we've ever produced and he deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt and have the two year extension.

majesticimperialman wrote:I could be wrong here so if i am pleasse correct me, The RWC is not far away and DK as been given a new 4 year contract.

Now if you remember Eddie O'Sulivan was given the same just before 2007 RWC, When Ireland made a swift exit from the tournament.

Ireland have not won a game in all the warm up games this august, So if Ireland get knocked out of this years RWC will the same happen too DK?
Or will the IRISH RFU, just except that they(Ireland)was never going to win it any way and leave DK'S contract alone?

Why do you think the IRFU thought they'd offer Kidney a contract on the basis they'd win the WC? You were writing the same about Gatland before we started winning games. Madge, stick to commenting on England only where you might (just might), get away with your dog egg posts.

Furthermore, you say you could be wrong so don't comment about what you don't know (which rather limits you of course)!!

Kidney will need to be replaced post WC by the looks of things. Aparently Gaffney is not being allowed much input.

I reckon we should appoint PDiv. He would probably do a better job

majesticimperialman I think your probably one of my favorite posters. It's almost as if you go to the pub on a Saturday and watch the game and get completely drunk, then wake up on a Sunday morning and come here and have a rant.
I'm starting to enjoy your Sunday morning threads.

He's a good coach and all coaches go through good and bad times, I think he made a massive error by picking half a strong side in all his warm up games. He;d of been better doing what Gatland did, pick mainly full strength teams and selecting only those good enough to play first team rugby. Giving everyone a game for Ireland has back fired and your team has lost momentum and confidence.

Gaffney is one of the big problems with this team. I feel that the Leinster and Irish backs have regressed since he has been involved in backs coaching.

Sure gafney is involved with Leinster too and there is no problem there. It not Gaffney it's kidney who has removed all creativity from this team.

leinsterbaby wrote:Sure gafney is involved with Leinster too and there is no problem there. It not Gaffney it's kidney who has removed all creativity from this team.

No, Gaffney is not involved in the Leinster team. He was involved with the Leinster team up until the start of last season when Schmidt took over the backs. You know, when Leinster stopped playing insipid, flat, lateral, brain dead attacking rugby and started scoring tries in their Heineken Cup group games. That was when he left, to be clear.

Yep Gaffneys tenure as backs coach for leinster (and munster iirc) coincided with some very poor back play at each of the provinces. At this point im wondering if he is an australian double agent . In saying that the big issue with our backs is the centres and a waning BOD and D'arce without top class replacements. We have relied too heavily on the great man in the centre over the past 2 years and havent properly tried alternatives.

Alyn.. I was not sugesting that DK was a bad coach, but if he was Martin Johnson and had lost all the summer warm up games, their would of been calls for him to be sacked now, and not after the RWC.

Gaffney is not working, he is the backs coach and DK should see this.

Far too much blame is being shoved on DK but some of it is deserved. He has continued to show faith in Gaffney and in D'Arcy for far too long.

Standulstermen wrote:Yep Gaffneys tenure as backs coach for leinster (and munster iirc) coincided with some very poor back play at each of the provinces. At this point im wondering if he is an australian double agent . In saying that the big issue with our backs is the centres and a waning BOD and D'arce without top class replacements. We have relied too heavily on the great man in the centre over the past 2 years and havent properly tried alternatives.

Time to move BOD to 12 with Paddy as his understudy, and Bowe to 13 with either McFadden or Earls as cover. I've lost faith in D'Arcy. I just the guy has one big game left in the tank from somewhere.

I would have done that Notch but is it too late now? To be honest with the way we are playing in the backs at present Nevin Spence would be the best fit we have. Big, physical and athletic and pacy.

Why not Paddy and BOD at 12 and 13 against the USA?

I dont think either pose a massive running threat eirebilly

In what way Stand? BOD is still capable of making breaks as is Paddy and with Bowe and Trimbal on the wing with Earls or Murphy at FB i feel that there is some good attacking potentioal there.

Neither is going to burn their man on the outside. Bod still has an eye for a gap but i dont think he has the legs to burn the opposition and although he gets over the gainline it isnt a clean break. Im not saying we should drop him. He is vital in defence and in terms of organising our backline. Paddy doesnt have top end pace either. With this lack of pace opposition teams have it easier in defence.

Bowe has the gas and the angles of running to succeed but i think it is too late now. As i say for the way Ireland play the game and use D'arcy we would have been better bringing spence who (while by no means the finished article) runs hard and is physical in defence and attack. Tuilagi and tindall are hardly playmaking centres but they did for us because our centres lacked the physicality to deal with them. Thats the big issue. If D'arcy doesnt have his physicality anymore then he offers very little. Not a thing i enjoy saying about one of my favourite ever players

Ridiculous to blame it all on Gaffney as for all accounts he has very little input. Every team kidney has ever coached lacked creativity.

majesticimperialman wrote:Alyn.. I was not sugesting that DK was a bad coach, but if he was Martin Johnson and had lost all the summer warm up games, their would of been calls for him to be sacked now, and not after the RWC.

I think Ireland are where Wales were in 2003, basically Steve Hansen used the warm up games to give everyone a game, and Wales even managed to lose by 40-50 points at home to England.
Kidney has basically used these as mickey mouse games to get match fitness, winning hasnt really been a consideration, as opposed to getting match fit.
What is really important is Ireland beat Italy, USA and Russia in the World Cup, I don't think anyone will expect Ireland to lose those games, regardless of Kidney's mis-judgements in the warm ups.
Having seen Russia lose by 40 points scores to the Dragons and Ospreys, I can tell you, Ireland will get 80 points with their first team and probably 60 with their second.

Fair enough Standulstermen but personally i think that Bowe should stay on the wing. Paddy off better distribution and kicking. Its sad for D'Arcy but he is no longer up there with the best.

One thing is for sure and that is that DK has his work cut out for him.

Standulstermen wrote:I would have done that Notch but is it too late now? To be honest with the way we are playing in the backs at present Nevin Spence would be the best fit we have. Big, physical and athletic and pacy.

Can't pass or kick. Sorry, he's not yet good enough for Ireland. You don't rush talent. Someone will say James O'Connor but he was already ready!

Notch can D'arcy pass or kick? Im not saying i would throw him in. I have said we needed to try Bowe at 13 for an age and that would be my preference (i do believe it is too late now) My point is that if we are selecting a 12 to do what D'arce has done in the past year or two Spence would do it better. He is (at the moment) in the same type of mould. Now in the long term i want to see Luke Marshall come through and i dont want to see Nevin spence at 12. My point is thatnhe is better at what D'arcy does than D'arcy at present.

Leinsterbaby,Munster weren't incredibly creative during Kindey's first term( we still socred some fantastic tries,Munster V Toulouse semi) but I would have said we were more creative in his second term,particularly in the 08 HC.

No he can't, but I've been saying that about D'Arcy for years

Actually he (D'Arcy) can pass to the required standard; its more that in the past he has chosen not to and taken a lot on himself. He's been shoveling it on recently to little or no effect given the flat alignment of our backline and the way nobody is running good lines or fixing defenders, himself included.

I don't think Spence would have been an answer this summer because he'd have to come in to a backline he'd never played in and take a lot of responsibility on himself. I think it would be a bit unfair on him. I think he could be quite easy for top teams to defend against.

Its hard to say what the answer is but i dont think that its Bowe. I honestly feel that Paddy is the best option right now, Spence will be in a season or two.

I think Luke Marshall will be in a season or two eirebilly. I think the lad has everything needed of the modern game 12. I would have liked to have seen him get more gametime on friday but our last try showed what having a passing 12 can do. We got the ball wide like ireland do but it was done so much more quickly and accurately that it created the gap.

I know it is vastly different levels but the premise is the same. I like the thought of putting width on the ball but ireland do through 4/5 sets of hands taking out potential runners and making the defence easy.

When Gaffney was at Leinster we had the same problems in attack as Ireland have now. It's incredible that he was employed as the Ireland backs coach after his time at Leinster. As soon as he left and Schmidt took over, Leinster's backs very quickly started realizing their potential and ripping defences apart. Gaffney does the opposite of what he's supposed to do. He actually makes the backs play worse.

My main criticism of Kidney is that his selections at scrum half have been disastrous. O'Leary being selected is now a bit like Buckley being selected, you just cringe.

Also correct me if Im wrong, but in 5 warm up games, our first choice half backs played together once??

Very poor, as I said in another post...

The number of different combinations we are trying in the half backs and the number of different approaches we are taking to the game through playing different 9's has left us without a clear game plan. For example.

O'Leary and O'Gara
Reddan and O'Gara
O'Leary and Sexton
Reddan and Sexton
Murray and Sexton
Murray and O'Gara

Thats not even mentioning Boss who is in the 30.

I think selection of 9's has been absolutely dire, especially O'Leary playing in the warm ups alongside Sexton who he's never played with then not even making the 30. Very poor decision making in my view.

I think Tomas O'Leary is going the same was as Tony Buckley for Kidney - a bloody disaster and trying to make it work with O'Leary has cost us dearly.

But O'Leary has been dropped Dodger? I think it was a mistake to give him so much gametime and drop him, but he did waste his chances.

Stand- it was the support line Faloon runs off Whitten that made that try for us. Cutting back against the grain off the shoulder of a centre. Very simple. Not rocket science- not something I've seen Ireland do either. Our backs tend to be isolated when they are on the ball for some reason.

It was a locely try all round for sure notch. We can lament that kidney gave TOL so much gametime but he did make the right call in the end. We need to see Reddan with Sexton against the US

Of course, it's much harder to come onto the ball from the kind of depth that you can at Pro12 level without being denied any gainline success at test level. So talking about backlines that have much more time and space is a bit misleading. But we are still too flat.

The example Stand discusses Marshall outs a long pass into the fullback who's joining the line- neither of these guys are test level at the present time, but thats one thing Ireland don't do. The fullback is so important in attack at test level because he can hit the line from deep and be a creative force. You need a good attacking fullback to hurt teams as well, and you need to use him well. We haven't really done that in Ireland for a long time.

Notch wrote:But O'Leary has been dropped Dodger? I think it was a mistake to give him so much gametime and drop him, but he did waste his chances.

Stand- it was the support line Faloon runs off Whitten that made that try for us. Cutting back against the grain off the shoulder of a centre. Very simple. Not rocket science- not something I've seen Ireland do either. Our backs tend to be isolated when they are on the ball for some reason.

Thats exactly what Im saying Notch, O'Leary got the most game time out of our scrum halfs in the warm ups only to be dropped.

You get the feeling with Kidney that sometimes he just doesnt want to see whats glaringly obvious, in fact I think Kidney kept picking O'Leary in the vain hope that O'Leary was suddenly going to turn into a scrumhalf. While Boss only played against Connacht.

I dont think the damage O'Leary's selection in these warmups has caused can be underestimated. Over the 5 warm ups how many minutes were Sexton and Reddan playing together for...

Artful_Dodger wrote:I dont think the damage O'Leary's selection in these warmups has caused can be underestimated. Over the 5 warm ups how many minutes were Sexton and Reddan playing together for...

I don't see it as an issue to be even estimated Dodger. They play together with Leinster (as do Boss/Sexton), there really shouldn't be an issue. If they don't know each other's game inside out by now a couple of warm up matches weren't going to improve things. What needed to be done was to get them match fit, and that has been achieved.

I would agree with super,we know what Sexton/Reddan can do together,we needed to look at others.

I would take Sexton and Reddan firing on all cylinders together in the last warm up before a WC rather than go into a WC having established that O'Leary isnt good enough and little else.

Also as a result of O'Leary two of our scrum halfs at the WC have almost zero game time. Boss got a game against Connacht and that is his preperation for the WC?? O'Leary on the other hand played against Scotland and France.

If we are going to look at others, might it be a good idea to look at players actually going to the WC?? As opposed to O'Leary who in my mind was given several opportunities by Kidney, at the expense of others. Sorry if it seems a bit personal towards O'Leary but I've been saying this guy aint a scrumhalf for years.

You see the thing is TOL was going to go to the world cup prior to his disaster in the France match. Kidney was operating on that assumption and was trying to get him, as well as Reddan, firing on all cylinders. Question requiring an honest answer from you, would you have taken TOL prior to the warm up matches? I doubt he was anyone's first choice but he was on my list, and if you go back to Pete's articles, he was on the vast majority of posters lists. The right decision was made to drop him but I wouldn't go overboard criticising based on hindsight.

Boss, Reddan and Murray haven't had as much gametime as you might have desired but they've got as much as all the other NH scrum halfs really when you take into account that they've played less games than us. Did Boss not play for Leinster the other night as well? Pretty sure he did.

Scrum half shouldn't be our greatest concern tbh. Inside centre, Healy's eye socket, Bowe's lack of form, SOB at openside, full back (although Kearney and Murphy have played well, they're only just back from injury)...there's much greater worries to be honest.

"Question requiring an honest answer from you, would you have taken TOL prior to the warm up matches?"

Absolutely not, in fact you will see my posts in pete articles:-

The 3 scrum halfs I picked to go to the WC were Reddan, Stringer and Murray.

You are right Kidney was working on the assumption that O'Leary was going, why Kidney was working on this assumption I do not know.

I disagree that the problems you have mentioned are of more concern than scrum half for us. For me what happening at 9 is the reason that our backs attacking prowess has fallen to pieces.

Fair enough Dodger...I would say that TOL has many faults but he also has some good things to his game. We score (or at least recently did) a lot of tries of first phase possession and TOL was instrumental in those scores. He's was abysmal over the last few weeks but I can see the logic why Kidney was hoping he would return to the player he was in 2009. You wanted Stringer to go prior to these matches and he wasn't playing well either, so we all have our faults and blind spots Dodger

I take your point about the problems at 9 causing problems for the backs but, for me, it's not as clear cut as that. Our forwards have not presented clean ball for any scrum half in these four games. The Scots, French and English have overpowered us completely really. I think Ferris' fitness is crucial in that regard. You've got to seriously question and critcise Gaffney as well. Yes we don't keep the ball through many phases, but when we do, we really look completely clueless as to what to do with the ball. That's all not down to TOL or any other scrum half.

When it comes down to it, we can't protect the ball and provide clean ball for the 9, we have an inside centre who is out of form and offers little (he's as guilty as TOL for stifling the backs really), our backs coach doesn't seem to be doing any coaching...a lot of issues and while admittedly TOL's poor service wasn't helping matters, it was definitely not all down to him.

I actually think that my shout for Stringer is vindicated in that what we need more than anything is quality service from the base of the ruck particularly when it comes to first phase ball. There is nobody better than Stringer for quality of service from the ruck and the quality of his passing.

I struggle to see our backline being so turgid with Stringer at 9. Granted I think not having Ferris around has had a big impact on this as well as he is so good at the breakdown. Thank god he has his come back games under his belt and is going to the WC fully fit.

I think Reddan and Sexton should have started together yesterday IF they are the first choice pairing. They may not be. ROG had the better of the warm ups (admittedly outside a better 9) so perhaps he is now our first choice. Reddan and Sexton may know eachother inside out at Leinster but they dont work with Bowe, trimble and Paddy Wallace on a regular basis. If they are the first choice outfit and we have given them little or no gametime together with our first choice backline in this series then it is idiotic.