Declan Kidney: Great Man Manager or Luckiest Man Alive

On Saturday 24th May 2008 Declan Kidney masterminded Munsters triumph over Toulouse in the Heineken Cup final in Cardiff. Shortly after he was appointed to the role of head coach of the Ireland national team, and just months later had led them to the 6 Nations title and their first grand slam since 1948. The IRB coach of the year award followed later in 2009, a year in which another Irish province, Leinster, won the Heineken Cup.

During Kidneys reign as Ireland supremo, Leinster have in fact won the Heineken Cup twice, and also made the Celtic League play off final twice. Munster have won the Celtic twice in the same period, and Ulster have established themselves as a top half of the table side, making last years play off semi final, along with the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup. So far this season, those three provinces have all qualified for the knockout stages of Europes premier club competition again, and all sit within the top half of the Rabo Direct table, with Leinster top and Munster currently set for the play offs.

It is clear looking the results of the provinces, and the players coming through the academy systems in Ireland, that the set up there is good, and they are producing players capable of performing to a very high level. Whilst overseas stars may have grabbed the headlines in Ulster's recent demolition of Leicester Tigers, homegrown talent such as Rory Best, Chris Henry, Paul Marshall, Paddy wallace and Andrew Trimble all contributed hugely, much as the likes of Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Johnny Sexton, Paul O'Connell, Ronan O'Gara and Keith Earls have done for Leinster and Munster respectively.

Ulster performance in that game was driven by an intensity usually associated with teams from the Southern Hemisphere, but that has also ben shown regularly by Leinster, and most recently by Munster in their demolition of Northampton Saints at Stadium MK. It is clear from these performances that the players have it in them to go up against anyone, and win, yet it is fair to say that it just has not happened regularly enough when they pull on the green shirt of Ireland.

As stated at the beginning of this piece, Kidneys reign began with glory, and the period since has seen sustained excellence and continued upward progression from 3 of the 4 Irish provinces. Yet at international level, if you look at tournament results, Ireland have declined year on year. From grand slam winners in 2009, to runners in up 2010 and then to third place in the 2011 6 Nations tournament. In each of the previous two competitions, there has been a standout, high intensity performance, such as the victory over England which denied them the grand slam last year, but there has been an inability to deliver performances consistently at that level.

The recent World Cup was no different. Ireland began with a less than convincing victory over the USA, before finding their one big performance to beat Australia, and also deny them even a losing bonus point. Wins against Russia and Italy followed, before being dumped out in the quarter final by the Welsh. Now at Celtic League and Heineken Cup level, Welsh regions victories over Irish provinces, particularly in key games, are rare, the Ospreys Final win over Leinster in 2010 being the exception So the question has to be asked why the levels of performance are not consistently replicated at international level.

The players are the same, with Connacht providing very few to the national squad, and there are plenty of occasions where provincial combinations have been used in the national shirt, so why this relative failure to perform on the biggest stage? The only conclusion that I can draw from what I have seen is that the answer has be Declan Kidney. He is clearly an intelligent man and a good coach, you do not win the trophies that he did with Munster if you are not, however something clearly is not right, as results reflect.

There are those who will argue that he does not select on form and favours the old guard (particularly from Munster) over younger more dynamic alternatives, yet his fans will point to the likes of Cian Healy and Sean O'Brien as examples of younger men that he has brought in to the side. There are also those who will argue that tactically he is stuck in the past, and sees the game through the same eyes that he did whilst at Munster between 2005 and 2008, and this hampers the team as the game has moved on even in that short time. Those who feel he is the right man for the job will counter this by highlighting those dynamic performances already mentioned against England and Australia, as evidence that he is trying to get the team to play in a modern, more dynamic way.

So what is the truth? Is Declan Kidney the right man to take Ireland on to the next level, and have them dominating Northern Hemisphere rugby in the same way that their provincial sides are dominating the club game? Or is he merely a false prophet, hiding behind success at Munster and initially with Ireland which was built more on the ability of the players at his disposal, rather than any great tactical nous or man management from him?

The next 8 weeks will hopefully give us some of the answers. Ireland will be without BOD, and Kidney will have to show that he is able to select the right man to fill his boots. Other than O'Driscoll, ireland have the majority of their best players available, and they are all in form, so there can be no excuses for not getting the best from them. In contrast England are an unknown quantity, France have a new coach and squad, and Wales will be missing key players through injury. If Ireland continue their downward trend since winning the 2009 6 Nations, and finish 4th or below in this competition, then surely Kidney's time must be up, as the answer to the question of what the truth is about him will be clear. On the other hand, Ireland may win the thing again, but I suspect the question will remain, great man manager, or just plain lucky at being Ireland coach at a time where the players at his disposal are better than their counterparts elsewhere in Europe.

I am a massive Declan Kidney fan.

However I don't think he is the man to take Ireland forward.

I think he has done a good job. He achieved two major steps forward.

1) He achieved short term success

2) He cast the net wider and created a much larger selection pool than Ireland ever had. He gave lots of debuts to players and created real competition for places.

The third thing is getting the right playing style and I just don't see Kidney capable of it. He could do it but will need to sign a top attack coach.

So in terms of creating a larger selection pool, do you not think that he has just benefited from being around at a time when the provinces academies are churning out lots of good players Stag? It's not like he has had any input into them coming through is it?

I would say that he has had an input Ozzy. You can take a horse to water but can't make it drink.

There were excellent players around during Eddie O'Sullivans time (Munster made 6 HEC Semi Finals under Eddie and Leinster made 7 quarter finals as well as some excellent guys abroad - Bob Casey, Trevor Brennan and the Leicester Tigers Irish Crew) but Eddie nearly always picked the same core 11-12 players and showed no desire to create competition for places. Ulster weren't bad either winning 2006 Celtic League and producing Neil Best, Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble,.

Fair comment. I do see some of that in Deccie though as well, like his persistence with selecting D'Arcy at 12, when his best years are clearly behind him. Maybe an isolated case though.

To be honest I think it's the latter and its hard not to think that. Ireland have gone backwards under Kidney and have been woefully inconsistant since 2009.

There's no direction or leadership on the pitch and no consistancy in selection.

That said Kidneys record shows he's won a GS and 2 HEC's and all the players speak highly off him so he must be doing something right. That said he didn't last long at Leinster and BOD was fairly critical off him in his book.

This RWC was another disappointing campaign after a poor 6N so the pressure is on to deliver results this season.

As was said the next 8 weeks will tell us more as to whether Ireland are going up, down or round in circles under Kidney.

There are no excuses if we have a poor 6N and summer tour as the player pool has never been better.

There certainly is some of it Ozzy. Nobody could deny that. In some cases he has been uber-conservative.

However a great deal of it is exaggerated and the above comment that Ireland have gone backwards under Kidney is just silly. Finished 4th in 2008 Six Nations and crashed out in group stages 2007 RWC under Eddie. With Kidney we won the thing outright and got out of group beating a SH team in the other hemisphere.

I do feel that other teams are developing faster than we are though.

I wouldn't say it was silly to say Ireland have gone backwards, maybe a little over the top but the 6 Nations facts are

2008 - 4th

Kidney takes over

2009 - Grand Slam
2010 - 2nd
2011 - 3rd

There is a pattern there, and not a good one. The other thing is if I can use a football team as an analogy. Martin O'Neill took over at Sunderland recently, and they were serious relegation candidates. 8 weeks on, with the same players they are top half of the table. New managers often get a reaction from players, it is sustaining that improvement and developing it going forward that is the key to long term success.

Am not convinced that Kidney has done that well enough so far.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Am not convinced that Kidney has done that well enough so far.

I agree with this and I agree that Ireland have been on a downward spiral for a while.

However I think it is nonsense to claim that we have gone backwards since we sacked Eddie. Under Eddie we used always finish between 2nd-4th in Six Nations and crashed out in pool stages with a small group of players. Under Kidney we finish 1st-3rd and made the knockouts.

It still isn't good enough I agree. He does need to improve and were he to have contract terminated I don't think I would complain all that much. Just I disagree strongly that things were better with Eddie.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Fair comment. I do see some of that in Deccie though as well, like his persistence with selecting D'Arcy at 12, when his best years are clearly behind him. Maybe an isolated case though.

Fair enough but we have hardly been blessed with alternatives at 12.

Mafi has played there most of time for Munster and Wallace has played there most of the time for Ulster.

13's are coming through the ranks but not 12's, at least in the short term

People have short memories.

Our last 6N under Steady Eddie was 4th and the 2007 WC was a disgrace.

Kidney may have his short comings but the later period under O'Sullivan was far worse

I think comparisons with Eddie are wrong though. Deccie needs to be judged on his merits and not on the basis that he is doing better than Eddie did.

Deccie needs to be judged on results, based on what is at his disposal to achieve positive results.

Geoff, whilst there is an argument that there were no alternatives at 12, a bold innovative manager may have looked at moving BOD inside one, and seeing what one of the decent options at 13 could do outside him. Just a thought. Might not have worked, but surely would have been worth a look.

Agree with Geoff.

He still needs to buck up badly but things aren't Eddie O'Sullivan bad yet.

red_stag wrote:
However I think it is nonsense to claim that we have gone backwards since we sacked Eddie. Under Eddie we used always finish between 2nd-4th in Six Nations and crashed out in pool stages with a small group of players. Under Kidney we finish 1st-3rd and made the knockouts.

Sorry stag but it is not nonsence. Under EOS we were rarely out of the top 2 in the 6N and rarely lost 2 games, winning 3 Triple crowns in 5 seasons. We reached the RWC QF in 2003 as well.

There was a pattern under EOS that we were there or thereabouts in terms of winning the 6N every season and 2008 was an unusually bad year, just as 2009 looks to have been an unusually good year for Kidney.

Under EOS I was pretty sick of the triple crowns now I'd give my right arm for one...if that's not going backwards I don't know what is.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I think comparisons with Eddie are wrong though. Deccie needs to be judged on his merits and not on the basis that he is doing better than Eddie did.

I think thats what I have done. Not doing well enough at the moment. Has had some success (winning title, expanding the pool of international players) but not the man to take us forward.

It was Rodders who made the comparison with Eddie claiming we have gone backwards since his days. A claim that is simply wrong and ridiculous in the extreme.

Rodders only ONCE have we been out of the top 2 under Kidney. We have beaten South Africa, beaten Australia, drawn with Australia, won the 6 Nations, got our "usual" second place in the 6 Nations and had a bad year last year.

I would say that Kidney has raised our expectations (a very good thing) and we aren't content with 2nd place. When Eddie got 2nd it was fine, when Kidney got 2nd place we were reigning champions so understandably not good enough.

But in actual terms we haven't moved backwards.

Stag in the almost 20 years I've been watching Ireland play, the period from 2002- 2007 was by far the best and consistant we have ever been.

It is an irrefutable fact that we have gone backwards since then.

Whether or not that is down to the coaches or not is a matter of opinion but I believe we have better players available now than we had then.

Stag and Rodders I think you are both guilty of exaggeration to either claim we were 2nd to 4th under EOS or that we rarely out of the top 2

We finished virtually every season 2nd or 3rd.

Thats true Rodders 2002-2007 was great but Eddies reign didn't end in the middle of 2007. We were great up until then but thats when things went pear shaped with horrific performances in both RWC and 6 Nations - losing to Scotland, France, Argentina, England, Wales, France in a single year. We also barely beat Italy and Georgia. Kidney wasn't in charge then. Eddie was.

geoff998rugby wrote:Stag and Rodders I think you are both guilty of exaggeration to either claim we were 2nd to 4th under EOS or that we rarely out of the top 2

We finished virtually every season 2nd or 3rd.

Yea fair dos.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I think comparisons with Eddie are wrong though. Deccie needs to be judged on his merits and not on the basis that he is doing better than Eddie did.

Deccie needs to be judged on results, based on what is at his disposal to achieve positive results.

Geoff, whilst there is an argument that there were no alternatives at 12, a bold innovative manager may have looked at moving BOD inside one, and seeing what one of the decent options at 13 could do outside him. Just a thought. Might not have worked, but surely would have been worth a look.

Bold but totally the right thing to do. I have been calling for this to happen for ages now, as BOD hasn't the pace for 13 anymore, but his brains and defence are still useful at 12. We could have had BOD's replacement figured out long before now in fact. Then when we had an established 13, and BOD's time was over, a 12 could have been brought in.

Cant argue with the logic thats what should have been done. I think centre has been a neglected area.

We've seen excellent competition at prop, hooker, backrow, scrumhalf, flyhalf, winger and fullback.

Second row appears to be developing competition and I am sure O'Callaghan won't be first choice this tournament.

However centres were done badly by Kidney

Scrum half I think was done badly.. He persisted with TOL right up to the RWC before going for the untested Murray, aswell as Boss who hadn't got any time with Ireland for a while either. It was clear well before then that TOL was not up to it. Luckily for us Murray ended up being very good, but that could have backfired easily.

Here's a question for you Stag, and I genuinely don't know the answer to this, but was some of the progression in other areas, such as hooker, scrum half and full back more down to luck, and the fact that first choice players got injured meaning that there was no choice but to throw someone else in, and as luck would have it, they came good?

Some things I'd just like to chip into this melting pot;
- The even years are always the harsh years for 6Ns with Ireland having France and England away
- He earned his coaching strips when he took over. He had no time to allow a new side to settle in cos he had to stop the rot in the squad and improve or world rankings in advance of them setting up the world cup draws
- While he had brought in new players, he doesn't throw kids in at the deepend (personally I'd like a bolter like Zebo, POM, Gilroy to get onto the bench and get 15 minutes during the 6Ns to show themselves).
- Us fans look ahead to the future an awful lot but for the here and now, getting results, you use POC, ROG, BOD, Wallace, DOC, Darcy until they are no longer useful. If it is a 50-50 call between one of these and a youngster then I'd go with the experience because the line is that fine.
- Our 3rd place in last years 6N was on 2 losses (one with an illegal ball). We were still third, but realistically the line between 2&3 last year can be traced back to that.
- As a manager I think he put our team in a great position in the RWC. We had to prepare for and beat either Oz or SA. We beat Oz straight off the bat but had a mare then against Wales. But the Wales game was a disaster by him. He went to outhalf by committee, threw Sexton under the bus for poor kicking (which everyone can't argue against his stats) and nailed his colours to ROG. Halftime is where he went wrong, he didn't manage to adjust to Wales tactics and it is definitely a black mark against him. But looking back, I'm probably more peed off with the players than the XV selected by Kidney.
- The grandslam was a great run and Kidney deserves more than 'luckiest man alive' status for turning what was a shambles of a squad around in such a short time. It was a year with england and france at home which are, in all honesty, the only years a grandslam can happen for us.

Tighthead - Cian Healy progressed naturally.

Hooker - Flannerys injury played a role but he made a point of getting Cronin game time too. Cronin only made his debut in 2009 but has notched up 15 caps as well as Best and Flanenry about.

Tighthead - big experiementation here despite heavy criticism. Hayes, Buckley, Court and Ross have all got good game time.

Lock - explained above.

Backrow - Ferris, Heaslip and Wallace was a given. O'Brien emerged into the fray last year and Kidney picked a few different combos of the 4. Wallaces injury has made this easy.

Scrumhalf - Big experimentation. Originially it was O'Leary and Stringer, then O'Leary and Reddan, then O'Leary and Reddan and Murray and finally Reddan, Boss and Murray. O'Learys injury kept him out of team for a while but when push came to shove he was dropped

Flyhalf - I don't really need to explain do I?

Wing - Good battles between Earls, Trimble, Bowe and Fitzgerald

Centre - has done a poor job. Used Wallace and Darcy religiously at 12. Earls has always replaced BOD in injury.

Fullback - Murphy v Kearney. Felix Jones was also looked at and I feel would have definitely travelled to RWC except injured in final warm up game.

Heres another way of looking at it. In 08 he took over what was known as the Golden Generation that some had felt had underperformed with EOS. In 09 He managed that team over the line to win the GS.

Since then he has changed the core of the team and introduced more new players in one year than EOS did in his total time in charge. Except for possibly one or two positions he has more than one option to choose from and has genuine competition. The WC was a huge disappointment for him and the team as they had a genuine chance and both he, the coaching staff and the PLAYERS know they blew that chance.

He picks the strongest players for the position (give or take one or two positions in terms of how people feel about certain players) based on form and experience. He will not drop someone in, only if he feels they have the ability (Murray) as he does not want to ruin peoples confidence, but he is usually clear to the players in what they have to improve on to make it.

I expect a strong performance for this years 6ns, the players he picked are still the best in Ireland, he is giving them a chance to redeem themselves from the WC.

If they dont do well, expect to see the axe fall and see some changes in personnel by the summer tour.

red_stag wrote:I am a massive Declan Kidney fan.

However I don't think he is the man to take Ireland forward.

I think he has done a good job. He achieved two major steps forward.

1) He achieved short term success

2) He cast the net wider and created a much larger selection pool than Ireland ever had. He gave lots of debuts to players and created real competition for places.

The third thing is getting the right playing style and I just don't see Kidney capable of it. He could do it but will need to sign a top attack coach.

Pretty much this. Not so sure i agree regarding the competition for places as i feel he is a conservative coach but i would agree he is looking at moer players. I think his selections for the 6N squads will make my mind up for me on this one. I dont think he can bring us the style required but then again if he surrounds himself with the right people (which he largely has done) he may surprise. The attack coach is such an important appointment.



ps. Stag. Appreciate the email chief and will be in touch. hopefully get a few beers in Limerick on the 7th/8th

No problem at all Stand. At very least we meet up, put a face to a name and have a beer.

Also the jury is out if he is the way for the future. But he has certainly built some good foundations in terms of the player pool and the options going forward. In the past if for example BOD/POC were injured it would nearly be expected that we do badly...now the expectation is higher as the replacement players are trusted.

I think he will get it right.

If I'm honest, anytime I see this question (and it's brought up about most successful people) I always feel that it is more about pushing an agenda than anything else.

Every successful person - in any walk of life needs luck, but I would not say they are lucky. The same stands for Kidney, he has had some luck along the way but I would not say that the success he achieved was purely down to luck.
There was nothing lucky about his 2 HC's, there was a bit of luck in winning the GS, (mainly thanks to Stephen Jones) but it wasn't luck that won us the competition.

The reality is he is the most successful coach that Ireland have produced, he has made errors along the way but he has nearly always bettered himself because of those failures. (The most successful business people I have met have said that they would never have succeeded if it were not from the lessons learned from their failures).

After his Leinster experience he changed the way he did things, he moved himself away from the coaching side and more towards a director of rugby role when he came back to Munster. More often than not he has learned from his mistakes.
When he came back to the Ireland set-up it appears that one of the first things he did was no ensure that everything that was in the past stayed there - he got the players to buy into it also - that is good man mangement, he has delivered our only 6 nations GS and, even with the Wales defeat, our best ever WC.
I hope that he gives a few players a run over the 6 nations, he has done well in making a large number of players now at least feel involved in the international set up, I think a lot of the younger players can now see a route to getting a spot on the Irish team.
We have enough talent in the set up at the moment that we should be able to adopt a "horses for courses" attitude towards our selection - if we can evolve to that this season, giving some of the younger guys the test experience that they have earned then I believe that we will have a very successful 6N.

Not sure what you mean by pushing an agenda Red Right?

And I like your answer to the question as well, you make some very valid points.

Ireland is a work in progress. Anybody who knows it (Irish rugby) and can look at the last decade, will see it. It keeps getting said but the telling doesn't make it any less true - Rugby has still to emerge from under the shadow of other team sports in Ireland that many outside Ireland might have heard of in passing but have hardly ever seen.
For the most part, these are particularly domestic games that attract huge devotion, huge support and the bulk of our media attention. After the GAA, most attention then settles on English football. I'm not saying rugby will, or that I want it to, ever displace these sports; but I firmly believe it will one day be much more of an equal. So in that sense, it is still growing.

So, if it still has failings, if the unity between International and Provincial remains an infuriatingly disjointed one, well I can easily put that frustration into a long-term box and breathe a sigh of relief. We are getting there. I think where we are going is potentially a very exciting place indeed - but I wouldn't even mention it for fear of the ridicule that would follow

Let me just say that I think rugby has a big future in future Ireland. I think it will eventually become a bigger sport for us than it perhaps ever was for Wales. I really do think we're just at the dawn.

So in the present. I get frustrated with Declan. Too right I do. But is he any different to the other coaches that have come along? Nope, I got just as frustrated with each one of those. That's his role - to coach the squad and to annoy and please the rest of us to varying degrees. He's not unique in being a coach on a pretty slippery precipice. But he and O'Sullivan, and Gatland before them; and the provincial coaches, and what is in the player's own hearts - they all have added to growing confidence within Ireland about this game called rugby.

It is sometimes hard to see the future when you're bedded down in the achingly detailed criticisms of Number 13s or Number 6s. And it's hard sometimes to appreciate the smooth journey Irish rugby has been having when you insist on looking at loses in the WC, loses in the WC warmups, prospective loses in this Six Nations even. But Irish rugby is still on an upward curve, you can't look at the evidence and argue differently.

Kidney has been part of that...the next coach, whenever we get one,...will fine tune it even more, mostly because he'll have more raw material to do it with. It's the rising raw materials that will drive the International side in time, not any particular coach. The game the provinces will play, the players in those provinces, they will eventually dictate the kinds of coaches attracted to and suited to us at International level. The players will create the blueprint.

Red Right wrote:If I'm honest, anytime I see this question (and it's brought up about most successful people) I always feel that it is more about pushing an agenda than anything else.

Every successful person - in any walk of life needs luck, but I would not say they are lucky. The same stands for Kidney, he has had some luck along the way but I would not say that the success he achieved was purely down to luck.
There was nothing lucky about his 2 HC's, there was a bit of luck in winning the GS, (mainly thanks to Stephen Jones) but it wasn't luck that won us the competition.

The reality is he is the most successful coach that Ireland have produced, he has made errors along the way but he has nearly always bettered himself because of those failures. (The most successful business people I have met have said that they would never have succeeded if it were not from the lessons learned from their failures).

After his Leinster experience he changed the way he did things, he moved himself away from the coaching side and more towards a director of rugby role when he came back to Munster. More often than not he has learned from his mistakes.
When he came back to the Ireland set-up it appears that one of the first things he did was no ensure that everything that was in the past stayed there - he got the players to buy into it also - that is good man mangement, he has delivered our only 6 nations GS and, even with the Wales defeat, our best ever WC.
I hope that he gives a few players a run over the 6 nations, he has done well in making a large number of players now at least feel involved in the international set up, I think a lot of the younger players can now see a route to getting a spot on the Irish team.
We have enough talent in the set up at the moment that we should be able to adopt a "horses for courses" attitude towards our selection - if we can evolve to that this season, giving some of the younger guys the test experience that they have earned then I believe that we will have a very successful 6N.

+1 good summation

Out of curiosity, we the silent majority seemingly turning on the man, who is the replacement that will do a better job?
- Joe Schmidt: only limited head coach experience and working in a structure largely left over by his predecessor.
- Tony McGahan: not sure, hints that he is getting Munster into top gear again, might be best to keep him there to push them on.
- McLaughlin: good work with Ulster but again, not sure. might be best for him to continue to develop Ulster.
- O'Shea: doing great work with Quins, but position has benefited from great run while the RWC was on. Faltered recently. He might need too much control for the IRFU's liking in order for him to accept the position. High probability of it being a great choice, but politics comes to play more here than any other candidate.
- Bradley: doing well with Edinburgh but needs to show a couple of seasons of progression before I'd consider him.

Who else would there be? I don't think there is anything in the above (other than O'Shea who I don't honestly think would happen) that can be seen as anything other than a change for changes sake.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Out of curiosity, we the silent majority seemingly turning on the man, who is the replacement that will do a better job?
- Joe Schmidt: only limited head coach experience and working in a structure largely left over by his predecessor.
- Tony McGahan: not sure, hints that he is getting Munster into top gear again, might be best to keep him there to push them on.
- McLaughlin: good work with Ulster but again, not sure. might be best for him to continue to develop Ulster.
- O'Shea: doing great work with Quins, but position has benefited from great run while the RWC was on. Faltered recently. He might need too much control for the IRFU's liking in order for him to accept the position. High probability of it being a great choice, but politics comes to play more here than any other candidate.
- Bradley: doing well with Edinburgh but needs to show a couple of seasons of progression before I'd consider him.

Who else would there be? I don't think there is anything in the above (other than O'Shea who I don't honestly think would happen) that can be seen as anything other than a change for changes sake.

Pretty bleak summary of potential replacements there, bandwagon;..both in the choices offered and your reckoning on them! I'll go back on everything I said. We're facing into the Abyss.

Glass half empty then? Must be the economy doing this.

Anyhow Kidney is going nowhere for two years so looking at replacements is all a bit premature. My bet would be on Bradley if he continues in the same vein with Edinburgh...

SecretFly wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Out of curiosity, we the silent majority seemingly turning on the man, who is the replacement that will do a better job?
- Joe Schmidt: only limited head coach experience and working in a structure largely left over by his predecessor.
- Tony McGahan: not sure, hints that he is getting Munster into top gear again, might be best to keep him there to push them on.
- McLaughlin: good work with Ulster but again, not sure. might be best for him to continue to develop Ulster.
- O'Shea: doing great work with Quins, but position has benefited from great run while the RWC was on. Faltered recently. He might need too much control for the IRFU's liking in order for him to accept the position. High probability of it being a great choice, but politics comes to play more here than any other candidate.
- Bradley: doing well with Edinburgh but needs to show a couple of seasons of progression before I'd consider him.

Who else would there be? I don't think there is anything in the above (other than O'Shea who I don't honestly think would happen) that can be seen as anything other than a change for changes sake.

Pretty bleak summary of potential replacements there, bandwagon;..both in the choices offered and your reckoning on them! I'll go back on everything I said. We're facing into the Abyss.

I'll admit I'm laying on fairly thick here. But if you take the detail and quantum of criticism with Kidney since the RWC and then take that level of critique towards other candidates, I get the above. My criteria on the guys above was taking coaches with experience with Irish players and the IRFU and running the negativity across their chances. Are we going to say Johnson/White/Deans/Henry are the potential suitors?

I'm not saying Kidney is faultless and hasn't made mistakes. But there is an agenda out there to get rid of him. To achieve that you have to;
- highlight poor results & poor coaching (e.g. build up to rwc, the wales game and last years 6n)
- insinuate that any success is down to luck and not competency (i.e. sure any coach would have done what he did)
- claim he isn't building for the future (i.e. not bringing through new players)

Of the above 3 items;
- Wales game in the rwc was bad for everybody. Last years 6Ns was a 3rd place finish which flat performances and but for a blown call could have been 2nd place. The build up for the RWC can be viewed in one of 2 ways. Must get wins to build momentum (we lost games). Or give your fringe players the chance to prove their inclusion in the travelling squad and cull the non performers (which he did).
- starting to become more than mumblings (just look at this thread)
- not necessarily true with Healy, SOB, Murray, Sexton coming through during the time and plenty other debutants.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Not sure what you mean by pushing an agenda Red Right?

Ozzy, I was referring more to journalists who give articles a similar heading and then proceed to publicly thrash someones achievements. I appreciate that this has been put into an open forum to get some debate going so the comment was not pointed at the OP. Apologies. I should probably have specified when I made the statement.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Out of curiosity, we the silent majority seemingly turning on the man, who is the replacement that will do a better job?
- Joe Schmidt: only limited head coach experience and working in a structure largely left over by his predecessor.
- Tony McGahan: not sure, hints that he is getting Munster into top gear again, might be best to keep him there to push them on.
- McLaughlin: good work with Ulster but again, not sure. might be best for him to continue to develop Ulster.
- O'Shea: doing great work with Quins, but position has benefited from great run while the RWC was on. Faltered recently. He might need too much control for the IRFU's liking in order for him to accept the position. High probability of it being a great choice, but politics comes to play more here than any other candidate.
- Bradley: doing well with Edinburgh but needs to show a couple of seasons of progression before I'd consider him.

Who else would there be? I don't think there is anything in the above (other than O'Shea who I don't honestly think would happen) that can be seen as anything other than a change for changes sake.

Of the Irishmen you list I would put McCall well above McLaughlin or Bradley.

In fact if we were to go native O'Shea and McCall is probably the best option.
My guy feeling is they are the team after next and we should go foreign to shake things up a bit.

Red Right wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Not sure what you mean by pushing an agenda Red Right?

Ozzy, I was referring more to journalists who give articles a similar heading and then proceed to publicly thrash someones achievements. I appreciate that this has been put into an open forum to get some debate going so the comment was not pointed at the OP. Apologies. I should probably have specified when I made the statement.

Ah no worries mate, I just wasn't sure if you thought I was a Leinster or Ulster fan trying to trash him because he is a Munsterman.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Red Right wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Not sure what you mean by pushing an agenda Red Right?

Ozzy, I was referring more to journalists who give articles a similar heading and then proceed to publicly thrash someones achievements. I appreciate that this has been put into an open forum to get some debate going so the comment was not pointed at the OP. Apologies. I should probably have specified when I made the statement.

Ah no worries mate, I just wasn't sure if you thought I was a Leinster or Ulster fan trying to trash him because he is a Munsterman.

red_stag wrote:Thats true Rodders 2002-2007 was great but Eddies reign didn't end in the middle of 2007. We were great up until then but thats when things went pear shaped with horrific performances in both RWC and 6 Nations - losing to Scotland, France, Argentina, England, Wales, France in a single year. We also barely beat Italy and Georgia. Kidney wasn't in charge then. Eddie was.

Accept all of that stag. EOS definitely outstayed his welcome and the 2007 RWC was a shambles. However from 2001- 2007 we were on a clear upward trajectory.

The most frustrating thing under Kidney is that post 2006 the provinces have improved markedly but this hasn't been reflected in the National teams performances, at least not consistantly.

Kidney could not have achieved all he has on luck alone. He clearly has a lot of positive attributes but for me the team has underperformed badly under his reign...perhaps then he's the unluckiest man alive?

Either way lets see what happens, I think we'll see a good 6N and summer tour and the questions will be answered.

I think that last years 6n was sacrificed somewhat by a certain amount of experimentation, as were the WC warm-ups. This has sullied his record. There were too many mistakes and penalties in the initial games of the 6n. They should have beaten France and Wales and were well on top against Scotland but let them back in. It all seemed to come together against England. The WC was good until the Welsh game. The manner of that loss needs to be excorcised not just by beating Wales but also having a successful tournament.

For me, 4 wins is a must if he is to be considered to have done a good job. Anything less will be under-achievement. He has enough momentum and resources at his disposal.

I believe, without destraction of the WC, he will produce the goods.

There is no comparison between him and O'Sullivan.

I agree that he rebuilt the shattered morale of the team after 2008. He got us into the top 8 of the rankings to ensure we were 2nd seeds in the World Cup. He won a Grand Slam. In fact he went an entire year unbeaten, which is probably the best achievement of any Irish team ever. He had us playing the old, tighter, low risk style of rugby better than anyone else.

But it all changed for Kidney when the tackle interpretations changed and a more attacking style of rugby emerged. Kidney has never coached a team to play the brand of rugby that is now required. He masterminded the strangling of Australia. But when tries were required against Wales we failed miserably. That sums up Kidneys Ireland for me. The tackle interpretations changed in 2010 and Kidney's Ireland have failed to produce a coherent style of rugby ever since. His other big failing is his use of the bench, which is poor. It's 2012 now. If we play a third 6 Nations in a row looking confused and disjointed then we have to say thanks for the Grand Slam and let him go. Someone else is needed to take us forward. I'd like a head coach from the southern hemisphere to shake things up and bring some fresh ideas.

Agree completely Feckless. If we don't see some sort of improvement in the team moving to playing the rugby needed into today's game then we have to say, sorry Deccie but you're a man stuck in a different era, bye bye!

I also think the next man in charge must come from outside Ireland so
there will be no previous bias which (and I know people will say otherwise) I personally think Kidney has.

eddie o sullivan was a poor man manager but a more innovative coach. His ireland team played far better rugby than kidneys. he also has a better win/loss (please correct me if im wrong). He did not have the resources and player pool that Kidney has and he had no scrummaging props at his disposal.

yes the 2007 world cup was a disaster as we got the training prep completely wrong and he was a conservative in terms of team selection. Eddie is also a bit of a soloist and could rub people up the wrong way and their appeared to be an issue with morale in the squad. Kidney fixed this won a grand slam but has achieved precious little since in terms or results and performances. We have had 2/3 great one off victories but the consistency of performance has not been there.

there is no kidney out agenda but folks on here me included are not happy with the level of performance we have seen from the irish team have given over the last 18months and the "style" of play or lack of it. And we have not had results to fall back on.

The buck stops with Kidney for this. He may well turn it around but he really needs a good six nations campaign and a summer tour where we turn in some decent performances.

Great manager, just ask his biggest fan Gibbo

dublin_dave wrote:eddie o sullivan was a poor man manager but a more innovative coach. His ireland team played far better rugby than kidneys. he also has a better win/loss (please correct me if im wrong). He did not have the resources and player pool that Kidney has and he had no scrummaging props at his disposal.

yes the 2007 world cup was a disaster as we got the training prep completely wrong and he was a conservative in terms of team selection. Eddie is also a bit of a soloist and could rub people up the wrong way and their appeared to be an issue with morale in the squad. Kidney fixed this won a grand slam but has achieved precious little since in terms or results and performances. We have had 2/3 great one off victories but the consistency of performance has not been there.

there is no kidney out agenda but folks on here me included are not happy with the level of performance we have seen from the irish team have given over the last 18months and the "style" of play or lack of it. And we have not had results to fall back on.

The buck stops with Kidney for this. He may well turn it around but he really needs a good six nations campaign and a summer tour where we turn in some decent performances.

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