Declan Kidney

You have to hand it to the man. Talk about calmness and cunning personified. While all the doubters and nay sayers were sharpening the knives stating that they all new better, he was going about preparing this team for the biggest match in 4 years. I suppose its hard not to slate him as was done here for many weeks with the results so poor. But on the times when it really mattered he has delivered his teams right at the pitch of their game.

And we really shouldnt have been surprised. In 06 when Munster won their first HC they had many below par performances in the ML but he always got the team up for the big matches and the miracle matches.

Its still early days but all ready Deccie has achieved something that no other Ireland coach has achieved before beating a Tri Nations team and on Southern Hemisphere soil in the WC.

Deccie will of course say that it was the team that did all the work which it was but the coach takes the flak when things are not going well so he should take credit as well.

PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE GEORGE HOOK who was left scraping the barrel for words of praise.

In Deccie we Trust. - The man is a Genius

"The man is a Genius"

Or

He is very very lucky

BlueMuff wrote:
In Deccie we Trust. - The man is a Genius

In Paul O'Connell and Brian O'Driscoll I trust. For me the jury is still very much out on Kidney. Two top class performances in 2 years is not good enough for this group of players and we'll need to carry that level on for the remainder of the tournament.

Deccie has delivered

HC in 06
HC in 08
GS in 09
Best WC performance ever in 11.

He has primed teams for massive games knowing that we cannot win every game. We would all like to be consistent like the all Blacks but in reality that will never happen.

roddersm wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:
In Deccie we Trust. - The man is a Genius

In Paul O'Connell and Brian O'Driscoll I trust. For me the jury is still very much out on Kidney. Two top class performances in 2 years is not good enough for this group of players and we'll need to carry that level on for the remainder of the tournament.

+1

BlueMuff wrote:Deccie has delivered

HC in 06
HC in 08
GS in 09
Best WC performance ever in 11.

All of that is undisputable. That's a fantastic record and didn't he also coach the U-20's to the WC?

None of that changes the fact that the national side have been very poor/average for the majority of his reign as National coach. Until we start performing with a level on consistancy then I'll have my doubts.

Under EOS we had about 17/18 top class players yet were in the running for the 6N title every year and regularly beating and pushing the Tri-nations teams. Kidney has had 30-40 top class players to chose from and we've struggled to produce any level of consistancy in the past two seasons and have slid well down the rankings.

Maybe it's all been a masterplan to peak at the RWC and if so the man is a genious not doubt about it, but I'll judge that after the competition not after one great victory.

BlueMuff wrote:
GS in 09
Best WC performance ever in 11.

Ironically your list does more to back up rodders point than it does your own. 2 top class performances in 2 long years. Not exactly convincing.

I think the much more interesting question (rather than simply extolling Deccie as either a genius or a fool)... is to try to work out to what degree have Ireland's definite underachievement these past few years been:

1) The result of poor game tactics by Deccie and management? (Poor player choice/substitutions, etc)
2) The result of the poor management strategy: were Deccie et al too conservative and slow to change over these years?
2) The result of a necessarily conservative strategy committed to building a broader panel for this WC? (i.e. is it just too difficult to build an Irish panel with a small base without taking things very slowly and building a team based on our strengths of stability and experience.)
3) Nothing to do with Deccie at all and more the result of a panel of players who are getting older and just can't bring the goods to the table except on the occasions when they are most motivated to do so?

Discuss.

BlueMuff wrote:Best WC performance ever in 11.

Let's open that particular bottle of champagne once the RWC is over, not during the pool stages.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:
GS in 09
Best WC performance ever in 11.

Ironically your list does more to back up rodders point than it does your own. 2 top class performances in 2 long years. Not exactly convincing.

I think the much more interesting question (rather than simply extolling Deccie as either a genius or a fool)... is to try to work out to what degree have Ireland's definite underachievement these past few years been:

1) The result of poor game tactics by Deccie and management? (Poor player choice/substitutions, etc)
2) The result of the poor management strategy: were Deccie et al too conservative and slow to change over these years?
2) The result of a necessarily conservative strategy committed to building a broader panel for this WC? (i.e. is it just too difficult to build an Irish panel with a small base without taking things very slowly and building a team based on our strengths of stability and experience.)
3) Nothing to do with Deccie at all and more the result of a panel of players who are getting older and just can't bring the goods to the table except on the occasions when they are most motivated to do so?

Discuss.

You can't take Rodders arguments seriously if you don't take into account Ireland's injury woes since the GS. FFS, Deccie had to fly in a 19 year old from the U20s world cup to play on the last summer tour down under, where John Muldoon broke his leg and Shane Jennings got injured as well. We were also missing a couple of our best players through injury (POC, Ferris & Flannery), not to mention Best (who is playing the rugby of his life at the moment) and Tomas O'Leary. Then there were all the broken legs - SOB, Donncha Ryan & Kevin McLaughlin. Moving onto the back, D'Arcy & Shane Horgan, Kearney, Luke Fitz & Murphy - all out for 6 months +. Then for the last 6Ns, Bowe & Trimble were injured coming into it.

How about commenting on the tactics used to beat Australia? What did you think of them?

Discuss

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:
GS in 09
Best WC performance ever in 11.

Ironically your list does more to back up rodders point than it does your own. 2 top class performances in 2 long years. Not exactly convincing.

I think the much more interesting question (rather than simply extolling Deccie as either a genius or a fool)... is to try to work out to what degree have Ireland's definite underachievement these past few years been:

1) The result of poor game tactics by Deccie and management? (Poor player choice/substitutions, etc)
2) The result of the poor management strategy: were Deccie et al too conservative and slow to change over these years?
2) The result of a necessarily conservative strategy committed to building a broader panel for this WC? (i.e. is it just too difficult to build an Irish panel with a small base without taking things very slowly and building a team based on our strengths of stability and experience.)
3) Nothing to do with Deccie at all and more the result of a panel of players who are getting older and just can't bring the goods to the table except on the occasions when they are most motivated to do so?

Discuss.

"Ireland under achivement in last few years". GS in 09 . We came third in the 6Nations - the year of a World Cup with. Ireland hasnt underachieved.

Your gripe is that we performed averagly in this years 6Nations. I for one couldnt give a tuppence about this years 6Ns or warm up games for that matter if Ireland go on to make the quarter final of the World Cup topping the Group. It is clear from listening to everybody the focus of this team for the last 2 years was the Australia match.

The gripe appears either very short sighted or extremenly demanding.

Sin é wrote:How about commenting on the tactics used to beat Australia? What did you think of them?

Discuss

They were exactly the tactics that everyone, including Deans, predicted we would use.

greybeard wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Best WC performance ever in 11.

Let's open that particular bottle of champagne once the RWC is over, not during the pool stages.

Greybeard yes its true that its only the pool stages but fact of the matter is we have achieved something that was never done before so already this is shaping up to be our best WC ever.

Deccie wont let the players get carried away but he cant stop me

BlueMuff wrote: already this is shaping up to be our best WC ever.

Not yet it isn't. We haven't even qualified from the pool yet so lets keep the champagne on ice for a few weeks.

The RWC is a winner takes all tournament and there are no prizes for one off pool stage victories.

Good analysis here from Kurt McQuilkin:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/worldcup/2011/0919/rwc_analysis_kmcquilkin.html

Short extract from the above:

Ireland attacked belly of Australia defence
That in turn had an effect on the Australians as they tried to shore up the middle of their defensive line, they left holes at the edge of their ruck which Ireland exploited with clever one pass plays and pick and goes.

These attacking ploys got Ireland into good field position which in turn put the acid on the Australians to try and attack from deep. So hats off to Alan Gaffney and Declan Kidney for identifying that area of weakness in the Australians defensive shape.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:How about commenting on the tactics used to beat Australia? What did you think of them?

Discuss

They were exactly the tactics that everyone, including Deans, predicted we would use.

So,he knew what was coming and he couldn't come up with something to deal with it? Or maybe he thought (with his players) that this outfit wasn't up to much so not worth the trouble and were lulled into complacency! Classic Kidney.

roddersm wrote:

BlueMuff wrote: already this is shaping up to be our best WC ever.

Not yet it isn't. We haven't even qualified from the pool yet so lets keep the champagne on ice for a few weeks.

The RWC is a winner takes all tournament and there are no prizes for one off pool stage victories.

That is the correct sensible attitude to have. I am interested to know though that at what point will you give Deccie credit for running a good WC campaign. Is it qaurter finals, Semi or will he only get credit if we win it. Or is it all down to the players if we do well?

The is only an issue for me because I have read posts on here where he has taken considerable flack and still continues to do so (for me which is unjustified)

The 09 GS was as a result of the injection of belief and confidence instilled in the team after the debacle of the WC 07.

The last 2 years since have been spent, redesigning the way the team plays, coping with huge numbers of injuries to critical players, building up a squad and realigning after the IRB's change of the rules mid season in 2010.

The fact is that when Kidney was given the job in 08 he was told by the suits in the IRFU that the be all and end all was a WC semi final.

Saturday's win against the Aussies was a significant step towards that goal.

Give any team at this WC the choice of playing either South Africa or Wales in the quaters and we all know what the answer would be. (Who would Welsh fans prefer to play, Ireland or Australia?)

The fact is that even if Ireland were to win this WC there are those who would sooner stick needles in their eyes than give Kidney any credit.

BlueMuff wrote:
That is the correct sensible attitude to have. I am interested to know though that at what point will you give Deccie credit for running a good WC campaign. Is it qaurter finals, Semi or will he only get credit if we win it. Or is it all down to the players if we do well?

The is only an issue for me because I have read posts on here where he has taken considerable flack and still continues to do so (for me which is unjustified)

I can't say that for sure because sometimes the results are out of your hands. I just want to see us back this result up and play with this level of intensity for the remainder of the competition.

All we've done here is create an opportunity for us to have a big tournament but now we have to take it.

There's no doubt Deccie has created a happy camp and getting Flannery to hand out the jerseys was a nice touch.

However I want to see some consistancy in the selection and perfromances from here on in and if we prove this wasn't another one off big result then I will happily lavish Kidney with all the praise he deserves.

Nos na Gaoithe - 3) Nothing to do with Deccie at all and more the result of a panel of players who are getting older and just can't bring the goods to the table except on the occasions when they are most motivated to do so?

Or maybe on occasions when it really matters??

Sin é wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:
GS in 09
Best WC performance ever in 11.

Ironically your list does more to back up rodders point than it does your own. 2 top class performances in 2 long years. Not exactly convincing.

I think the much more interesting question (rather than simply extolling Deccie as either a genius or a fool)... is to try to work out to what degree have Ireland's definite underachievement these past few years been:

1) The result of poor game tactics by Deccie and management? (Poor player choice/substitutions, etc)
2) The result of the poor management strategy: were Deccie et al too conservative and slow to change over these years?
2) The result of a necessarily conservative strategy committed to building a broader panel for this WC? (i.e. is it just too difficult to build an Irish panel with a small base without taking things very slowly and building a team based on our strengths of stability and experience.)
3) Nothing to do with Deccie at all and more the result of a panel of players who are getting older and just can't bring the goods to the table except on the occasions when they are most motivated to do so?

Discuss.

You can't take Rodders arguments seriously if you don't take into account Ireland's injury woes since the GS. FFS, Deccie had to fly in a 19 year old from the U20s world cup to play on the last summer tour down under, where John Muldoon broke his leg and Shane Jennings got injured as well. We were also missing a couple of our best players through injury (POC, Ferris & Flannery), not to mention Best (who is playing the rugby of his life at the moment) and Tomas O'Leary. Then there were all the broken legs - SOB, Donncha Ryan & Kevin McLaughlin. Moving onto the back, D'Arcy & Shane Horgan, Kearney, Luke Fitz & Murphy - all out for 6 months +. Then for the last 6Ns, Bowe & Trimble were injured coming into it.

How about commenting on the tactics used to beat Australia? What did you think of them?

Discuss

Hey Sin,

I think you've taken me up wrongly. I was neither expressing my own opinions nor trying to say something negative about Ireland or Deccie. I was trying to put down all the explanations as I remember them being used by a variety of different people in order to see what ones the posters on here thought were most plausible. I forgot about the injuries one - but I think that's another creditable enough explanation.

As regards our tactics with Australia... well if I was trying to get at one rarther subtle point, it was this:

We have had a tough few years since the GS. And most of us rightly got on the team's and Deccies' backs about it. But now I kind of feel like there was a lot of necessity in all that happened. BOD and Darc were getting older and no longer showing as much of the explosive qualities that could turn games on their own. But we were not looking like producing replacements with world-beating pace and attacking flare within the time left to the world cup. This led to the need for a complete redrawing of Ireland's signature gameplay/style. What Deccie and the management seemed to specifically invest in was an extremely slow and conservative build-up of team unity and experience and a slightly expanded panel (while avoiding simply introducing players on the basis of them being the most exciting or pacy). They then refocussed our key gamewinning plays around the breakdown and mauls and our defensive play... with blanket (Leinster-style) defensive play out wide and explosive carrying and clearout play around the breakdown and fringes.

To the surprise of alot of us, this strategy blossomed against England... and then - to all our delight - proved a repeatable resource against the Oz. The difficult bit will be how the team and fans and media respond to the reverse psychological position. I.E. if Ireland are 6-6 with Italy or Wales with no sign of any great back line adventure... will their be enough patience to rejoice in a 9-6 win? How will we respond to George Hook's inevitable ranting and raving? Will the team lose patience and start trying to throw the ball around thinking that they're now world-beaters and should be 10 points clear (which in turn leads to a possible return of handling errors and increased turnovers)?

MunsterMac wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe - 3) Nothing to do with Deccie at all and more the result of a panel of players who are getting older and just can't bring the goods to the table except on the occasions when they are most motivated to do so?

Or maybe on occasions when it really matters??

Precisely. No disagreement from me.

I think you lot are a very defensive bunch... I'm Irish. I was saying it as a positive for us. That BOD and the boys will always raise their game when it matters... no matter what the self-promoter Hook blabbers on about.

Kidney deserves a lot of credit, but not for the occasional one-off victory.

He has managed to build squad depth from a very shallow basis where EOS had neglected it for years. That in turn has seen the team cope with injuries that Eddie would just have had no answer for. There are still maybe one or two areas that need addressed but that is so much better than 12 or 13 positions under O'Sullivan with zero backup.

Inevitably increasing the player selection pool so quickly has led to some inconsistency, but having established some depth the players will now gain experience together and I fully expect Ireland to be much more consistent in the next few years. Kidney is also far more visible at the lower levels than EOS ever was. Not just at matches but in the sharing of IRFU resources such as specialist coaches and getting closer to the players at their provinces rather than getting the players to come to him.

His man managment skills are undoubted - e.g. the choice of Flannery to hand out the shirts, but it is his tactical nous that is at times questionable. IMO he has built a much more professional team of coaches than was ever previously assembled to assist him in that regard, but has been possibly let down by Gaffney. The win against Australia was a shock to everyone (except the team), and has improved Ireland's chances this year to go further than ever before - how can anyone knock that?

MunsterMac wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe - 3) Nothing to do with Deccie at all and more the result of a panel of players who are getting older and just can't bring the goods to the table except on the occasions when they are most motivated to do so?

Or maybe on occasions when it really matters??

Shouldn't every Ireland game matter?? And not just a game where we aren't underdogs with a point to prove, that occur maybe once or twice a year?

We have acheived nothing yet, if we don't back up this win with similar performances (and therefore results) against Russia and Italy, it will have been for nothing. The next 2 games are as important as the Aus game, perhaps even more so and we'll have to do it without the underdog/ "no one rates us, lets show them" spirit.

The Aus result gives us a chance of a more favourable draw and a good phychological boost, but only if we treat the next pool games (esp. the Italy game) with the same intensity. At the end of the day its a pool match, worth the same amount of points as the USA game before it.

A good win, great performance but still plenty to do. Deccie knows this and I'm sure himself and the lads will keep up the momentum. Personally, the game it has restored a lot of faith in Deccie, but not all, we now need consistancy.

We've enjoyed the win, but its Monday now, a new week and new challenges lie ahead. Onwards and upwards.

In all the criticism there has been of DK since the shine went off the GS trophy in 09, one thing has always interested me - the constant carping criticism of Kidney when what he has been doing over the past few years was building a squad as he said at the beginning he was going to do.

When Kidney was appointed, as I understand it, he made it a condition of his appointment that he could sign his own coaching team. He went out and signed Les Kiss, Gert Smal and Alan Gaffney. I think a lot of us were surprised at the quality of that group of coaches. We know the suits said a WC SF was the target, but you can't set a target like that and get coaches of that quality to take it on unless they believe in the ability of the players to make it, and the ability of the man in charge to organise things properly.

A few months ago, the whole coaching team except for Gaffney had their contracts extended. Some went "Oh no here we go again" - with memories of 2007 and EOS.

But honestly, whatever you or I think of Kidney, what are our opinions of Kiss, Smal? (I am excluding Gaffney because he won't be staying). Do we think as highly of them now as we did back in 2008 when they were signed up to the Ireland cause?

The point I am making, and it must be obvious, if these men are prepared to leave their trailer hitched to DK and Ireland, should we not come to the opinion that maybe, just maybe, DK has something about him as a man manager, a team leader, that we do not see watching from the sidelines as we are? I personally trust their judgement. I think if they were to become disillusioned with the Ireland set-up, that would have happened by now. There will be plenty of jobs going on the world rugby stage after October 23rd and I have no doubt Kiss and Smal could have named their price then. But they have stayed with us, for another two years.

I have always thought Kidney was a cute Corkman and God knows those sort are a divil to deal with.

As for the Australians knowing how Ireland were going to play - the simple answer according to their post match press briefing was they didn't. R Deans had NOT done his homework. Such disrespect to ANY team in this competition is contemptible.

So onward and upward lads, keep your feet on the ground and the champagne on ice for a while yet. This tournie is not over yet and we are all enjoying it now.

Is the reason that Ireland are playing their best ever rugby in this RWC, realy down to Kidney? or is it down to the likes of O connel, O driscol, O gara, O Callahan, these aand the rest of the Ireland team but the 4 that i have just mentioned was around in 07 RWC.

Those 4 will not be around much after this RUGBY WORLD CUP, and want to bow out on a high.

Ireland do usaly have a couple of bad games then produce the best display of any team leaving alot of questions to be ask, WHY did they not play like this in the warm up games?

Lets wait till after the tournament before we say Kidney is a genius or not.

i will be reserving judgement until the end of the world cup also thanks as i said all along

fair play to Kidney and all the players for a tremendous victory on saturday morning. now have a real chance of getting to a semi final and we have the ability to do it.

The biggest issue i had with Kidney was the fact that he has delivered 2 complete performances in the last 12 months and for the majority of the games our play lacked intensity,direction and creativity. in my view we as paying supporters are entitled to have a pop and voice our opinion if we feel we are not playing near our potential

anyway onward and upward. lets get out of the group first and take things from there. players and management sounded pleased but well grounded which is good

Henry got crucified in '07. Deans has been pilloried this week. Johnson has been ridiculed in the past. That's what happens to international coaches. It's cut throat. They have less time with the players. And they get more criticism when it doesn't go right. There's national pride involved. Press and fans can get hysterical. But Kidney is a big boy, I'm sure he can handle it. If he didn't want the challenge he would have stayed at Munster.

I was criticizing Kidney a lot over the last two years. Bluemuff and Sin e were his biggest defenders. I'm humbly silenced. For now.

Kidneys record as a coach from underage upwards has been impecable and has been about winning. The sudden agreeing with everything George Hook says shows the level of knowledge involved.

Kidney has had his ups and downs as Ireland coach. However what I see a lot of is people who will blame him for the bad times, but won't credit him for the good ones.



He isn't much of a 'coach' but is an incredible Director of Rugby. He picked the right coaching team, expanded our playing pool and has overseen our best ever 6 Nations result and best ever World Cup result.

nothing to do with mr hook dod. many of us were legitimately concerned with not only the warm up games (they were indeed warm up games) but our performances in the last 6 nations and autumn internationals were also poor.

he received criticism for the fact that we have played without direction,creativity or intensity for most of the last year. He is the manager and is big enough to ship this. It is nothing personal at all.

If we do a very unirish thing and peak at a world cup, replicate saturdays performance v italy and in quarters and make it to a semi final he deserves major praise. god willing we do.

He certainly does have a great track record at Munster and U21 level. If he brings similar success to the irish team i will overjoyed.

I disagree stag he is a good coach...and has done it at all levels. He changed the way Munster played after the 07 HC, he has changed how Ireland play and he now has a squad with depth. He coached Leinster to an 8-0 HC pool (the first time an Irish province did that - pity the team didnt turn up in the QF).

The team did nothing out of the ordinary last week. They played to their potential. It is in the players hands for them to do it again.

To me it is clear that the players have been facilitated by Kidney and his coaching staff they have shown their potential twice in 2011 and played extremely well...

If the same team go out against Italy and perform poorly...whose fault will it be?

red_stag wrote:Kidney has had his ups and downs as Ireland coach. However what I see a lot of is people who will blame him for the bad times, but won't credit him for the good ones.

That's the nature of the beast stag. If the selection or tactics aren't right then the buck stops with the coach. If he gets it right, well, thats his job he should do it right.

I want to see more consistancy in his selection and the teams performance because from the outside it looks too much like he doesn't know what he's doing and every so often he gets lucky.

That may not be the case but that's what it looks like at times. If we see run of performances and consistant selection now then at least we can know that the Australia performance wasn't a fluke and he really does know what his best team is and how they should play.

Rodders...you seem to be getting your arguements confused. Earlier you were indicating DK had 30 top players to chose from and so had no excuse for results/performance. Now you are saying you want consistency of selection...

maybe we should look for a consistent discussion....

Also all you need to do is look at the England game to note that Aus wasnt a fluke (by the players that is)...

DOD wrote: He coached Leinster to an 8-0 HC pool (the first time an Irish province did that - pity the team didnt turn up in the QF).

I don't want to start anything but this is the kind of statement that causes the provincial bickering we see so often.How can you credit Kidney with the 8-0 pool record but then absolve him form the QF result?

Personally I think Kidney deserved all the criticism he got as we all knew Ireland were capable of playing like we did last week but it hasn't happened nearly enough.

Having said that he now deserves all the praise that comes his way for that performance and for (hopefully) an excellent World Cup performance.

I was listening to Emmet Byrne (who he coached) talking about him the other night. He said one of the things about him was that he coached the players to be responsible for themselves, something which he said he himself lacked and was lacking in Leinster* when he was there.

Ronan O'Gara said that you can't always play to the intensity that Ireland played against Australia - I think Kidney facilitates that belief that it is ok to play badly and not lose confidence - and they know they have the ability to lift their game when needed.

Last week there were people complaining that the players sounded far too confident that they were going to click.

*I'm not wanting to start a provincial whinge fest here ... I've heard similar thoughts from former Munster players - just Emmet was saying it during the week.

DOD wrote:Rodders...you seem to be getting your arguements confused. Earlier you were indicating DK had 30 top players to chose from and so had no excuse for results/performance. Now you are saying you want consistency of selection...

maybe we should look for a consistent discussion....

Also all you need to do is look at the England game to note that Aus wasnt a fluke (by the players that is)...

No you are misinterpreting what I am saying. The advantage of having greater depth means you can drop players who are not performing and use players from the bench or change the team to suit the opposition. These are all advantages Kidney has over his previous Irish coaches.

However the coach still has to pick his best 22 players both individualy and collectively and send them out with a gameplan to get the job done based on the challenge the opposition brings.

I'm not convinced that Kidney has succeeded in doing this on a consistant basis and his win-loss ratio suggests this.

Sin é wrote:
Ronan O'Gara said that you can't always play to the intensity that Ireland played against Australia - I think Kidney facilitates that belief that it is ok to play badly and not lose confidence - and they know they have the ability to lift their game when needed.

If that was true we wouldn't have finished 3rd in the 6N two years running or failed to get a bonus point against the USA. The evidence over the past year and a half is that all too often we haven't raised our game when needed, far from it, we've been rubbish.

we always peak for England DOD that is/was the problem.

We were dreadful in Cardiff and also Murrayfield where we nearly threw away a lead against a shocking Scotland team. We were also blessed beyond belief in Rome. Poor v a weakened South Africa team and terrible in the warm ups.

Plenty of reasons for folks to voice their opinion questioning Kidney and his management team.

A head coach is accountable for the performances of this team. One blip you can blame the players for but a run of directionless performances cannot all be the players fault.

Lets home we kick on from the super performances on Saturday and beat Italy, Wales and get to a semi. Then who knows we have the ability to beat all but all blacks on our day

Sorry the point is that the players played well against both England and Aus...they have shown what they are capable of. It is time they took responsibility for how they play. You cant absolve them from this by saying it was because its England or whatever.

Take the US game for example. The only player who played anyway close to his capabilities was POC. The rest were pants. Do you think DK made them play that way?

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Ronan O'Gara said that you can't always play to the intensity that Ireland played against Australia - I think Kidney facilitates that belief that it is ok to play badly and not lose confidence - and they know they have the ability to lift their game when needed.

If that was true we wouldn't have finished 3rd in the 6N two years running or failed to get a bonus point against the USA. The evidence over the past year and a half is that all too often we haven't raised our game when needed, far from it, we've been rubbish.

Some big changes going on in those two years - particularly with the introduction of Sexton who wasn't having an easy time of it. Then there was the changes in the interpretation of the laws to contend with which affected Ireland more than any other team.

You need to stop comparing Kidney, an international coach to a Joe Schmidt, a club coach. Schmidt has approx.30+ games to experiment players with and he has them right throughout the year. Kidney has them for about 12 games a year and only a few weeks which includes the players being away from home for a couple of weeks and touring to the other side of the world.

the introduction of sexton has nothing to do with our poor form over the last year. We were struggling at the breakdown, lineout and our back play was pedestrian and directionless.

we were equally poor v Scotland and Wales when Rog started.

right im going to take a back seat here lads. i have had my reservations about kidney et al over the last year but we are in the biggest competition in the world coming off the back of a tremendous win v one of the favourites. Lets carry through the intensity of the Aus game through the next 3 weeks and who knows where we will end up.

Im personally quite excited!!!

Napoleon, having listened to the praises of an officer who was being recommended for promotion to general said "I don't care how good he is - is he lucky ?"

Over the next games we may see one, the other or both....

dublin_dave wrote:the introduction of sexton has nothing to do with our poor form over the last year. We were struggling at the breakdown, lineout and our back play was pedestrian and directionless.

we were equally poor v Scotland and Wales when Rog started.

right im going to take a back seat here lads. i have had my reservations about kidney et al over the last year but we are in the biggest competition in the world coming off the back of a tremendous win v one of the favourites. Lets carry through the intensity of the Aus game through the next 3 weeks and who knows where we will end up.

Im personally quite excited!!!

Dave, Sexton's kicking percentages were about 40%. How many points did he leave behind him in his first 6ns?

When O'Gara went off against Scotland & Wales, Ireland were in the lead. Getting your kicks when playing badly can be the difference between winning and losing.

Less Kiss RuggaMatrix podcast here. He talks about the Aus v Ireland game.

http://www.ruggamatrix.com/

Sin é wrote:
You need to stop comparing Kidney, an international coach to a Joe Schmidt

I didn't.

Sin é wrote:

Dave, Sexton's kicking percentages were about 40%. How many points did he leave behind him in his first 6ns?

When O'Gara went off against Scotland & Wales, Ireland were in the lead. Getting your kicks when playing badly can be the difference between winning and losing.

We were still playing terribly though,what has annoyed people over the last few years is the poor performances more than the results.It didn't seem to matter who was playing we were consistently awful.

The most exciting thing for me about the Australia game is that we played well but were far from brilliant,our pack were excellent but there is a lot more to come from our backs and if it all comes together we can be a really good side.

The question we all have though is why haven't we been able to perform anything like that more than twice in the last few years.Now I know you mentioned it's hard for teams to summon that kind of performance every game as it takes a mental and physical toll but the gap between our best and worst performances are miles apart and too often we've been on the bad side of the coin.

The challenge now is to show consistent good performances,nobody expects greatness every game we just want the players to play close to their potential.

Ok dublin_dave, seeing as you think we were terrible during the warm ups, im going to argue that point with you.

The Scotland game. Not to dismiss this match entirely, but the one thing that was positive, inspite of a late try being conceeded, the defensive system that Kiss has developed has clearly been leared by the 2nd and 3rd string players too. Defo a strong example of Kidney making sure he is developing a squad that can genuienly fill in for frontliners.

The French game in Bordeaux, we were actually pretty good, closed out the second half well and poor set piece play 10m from the French line twice let us down not wanting to blame him entirely, but Best threw a bad line out. Such specific execution of a basic set piece is the players responsibilty in a match situation. Its not like they have poor forwards coaches or hadnt practiced.

The seocnd French game. A very good opening 10 mins. A dreadful hour and then a decent final ten mins. Not dreadful, but not totally pointless either. That poor hour wasnt helped by TOL* having a shocker and Earls also underperforming. We showed some verve with ball in hand and we saw the first outing of the ROG-Sexton axis.

The England game. This i will grant you was a poor performance. Not because of overtly poor play , but because fo the intensity level of the players being all wrong, exccept the unfortunate Wallace and Ferris to be fair. They switched off and I cannot think that Deccie would be at all happy or condoning of that.

The USA game. Well, the players willfully ignored the right methodolgy of playing until the 3rd 1/4. Whether that was down to Deccie is possible but route one happened after half time so he changed the standing orders when given the chance. Still poor in not getting the BP.

BlueMuff wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:
GS in 09
Best WC performance ever in 11.

Ironically your list does more to back up rodders point than it does your own. 2 top class performances in 2 long years. Not exactly convincing.

I think the much more interesting question (rather than simply extolling Deccie as either a genius or a fool)... is to try to work out to what degree have Ireland's definite underachievement these past few years been:

1) The result of poor game tactics by Deccie and management? (Poor player choice/substitutions, etc)
2) The result of the poor management strategy: were Deccie et al too conservative and slow to change over these years?
2) The result of a necessarily conservative strategy committed to building a broader panel for this WC? (i.e. is it just too difficult to build an Irish panel with a small base without taking things very slowly and building a team based on our strengths of stability and experience.)
3) Nothing to do with Deccie at all and more the result of a panel of players who are getting older and just can't bring the goods to the table except on the occasions when they are most motivated to do so?

Discuss.

"Ireland under achivement in last few years". GS in 09 . We came third in the 6Nations - the year of a World Cup with. Ireland hasnt underachieved.

Your gripe is that we performed averagly in this years 6Nations. I for one couldnt give a tuppence about this years 6Ns or warm up games for that matter if Ireland go on to make the quarter final of the World Cup topping the Group. It is clear from listening to everybody the focus of this team for the last 2 years was the Australia match.

The gripe appears either very short sighted or extremenly demanding.

I agree with your sentiment. While it's understandable to feel frustratred at the inconsistent results, you have to be realistic and appreciate what Kidney has been doing over the last 2 years. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Kidney was given his brief by the IRFU and, for me, he is about to deliver that and more. I believe he will be proven to be the best coach in the World, given the resources at his disposal and the parameters in which he has to operate. I also think that when he departs, he will leave an excellent legacy for his successor and beyond.

I suppose you could put me in the pro-Kidney camp!

If the team follows through after this result and has a brilliant World Cup (semi final or final) then a lot of what Kidney has done over the last two years will be vindicated. And that's coming from me, one of the regular Kidney critics.

Feckless Rogue wrote:If the team follows through after this result and has a brilliant World Cup (semi final or final Winners ) then a lot of what Kidney has done over the last two years will be vindicated. And that's coming from me, one of the regular Kidney critics.

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