Top 10 Middle Order Batsmen Of All-Time

First topic message reminder :

In a particular order.

Bradman
Lara
Tendulkar
Viv Richards
Headley
Ponting
Sobers
Hammond
Weekes
Barrington

I think you maybe being a little English biased there. AB I would say is the most naturally gifted and has the more variety of shots than Bell.

AB was in the Test and One-Day teams of the year, Bell was in neither.

Liam_Main wrote:I think you maybe being a little English biased there. AB I would say is the most naturally gifted and has the more variety of shots than Bell.

Now I get it.You are saying this because he is in your RCB team


Me English biased?Most of the posters on other boards)(non English) believe that Bell is more gifted.And even on this board you are probably the only one saying this.

RCB bias

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:This is where Bell comfortably scores over AB.

Who is AB ? Is it Alan Border?

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:I think you maybe being a little English biased there. AB I would say is the most naturally gifted and has the more variety of shots than Bell.

Now I get it.You are saying this because he is in your RCB team


Me English biased?Most of the posters on other boards)(non English) believe that Bell is more gifted.And even on this board you are probably the only one saying this.

RCB bias

The Fantasy League is a hypothetical league. Do you think I really care that much if he was in my team or not? It's just for a bit of fun. Stella also agrees that there pretty even.

Don't get me wrong Bell is naturally gifted but I would rather have AB in my team then him.

Liam_Main wrote:AB was in the Test and One-Day teams of the year, Bell was in neither.

Firstly I am not tkg about ODIs here.Bell is a poor ODI player and we all know that.

As far as the Test XI is concerned are you taking it seriously?They picked Sanga as the keeper and Amla as the opener despite them not having done that role for ages( Amla has never done it).So I seriously dont believe you are reading so much into these XIs.

AB played 5 Tests.Bell played 12 and yet finished with a higher average.

AB scored runs on the flattest pitches ever in UAE where tbh Boycott's Mum could score big.Against India in SA conditions,he didnt do too well as they helped the bowlers.

gboycottnut wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:This is where Bell comfortably scores over AB.

Who is AB ? Is it Alan Border?

AB De Villiers

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:AB was in the Test and One-Day teams of the year, Bell was in neither.

Firstly I am not tkg about ODIs here.Bell is a poor ODI player and we all know that.

As far as the Test XI is concerned are you taking it seriously?They picked Sanga as the keeper and Amla as the opener despite them not having done that role for ages( Amla has never done it).So I seriously dont believe you are reading so much into these XIs.

AB played 5 Tests.Bell played 12 and yet finished with a higher average.

AB scored runs on the flattest pitches ever in UAE where tbh Boycott's Mum could score big.Against India in SA conditions,he didnt do too well as they helped the bowlers.

Geoffrey Boycott's mum died a few years back, so yes it would be pretty weird if she suddenly started scoring runs on the UAE pitches!

Liam_Main wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:AB was in the Test and One-Day teams of the year, Bell was in neither.

Firstly I am not tkg about ODIs here.Bell is a poor ODI player and we all know that.

As far as the Test XI is concerned are you taking it seriously?They picked Sanga as the keeper and Amla as the opener despite them not having done that role for ages( Amla has never done it).So I seriously dont believe you are reading so much into these XIs.

AB played 5 Tests.Bell played 12 and yet finished with a higher average.

AB scored runs on the flattest pitches ever in UAE where tbh Boycott's Mum could score big.Against India in SA conditions,he didnt do too well as they helped the bowlers.

Geoffrey Boycott's mum died a few years back, so yes it would be pretty weird if she suddenly started scoring runs on the UAE pitches!

But you get the point.
Boycott himself mentions his mum time and time again.I didnt mean any offence to anyone.

Ian bell im sure will still be in the england team in 5 years time.

cricketfan90 wrote:Ian bell im sure will still be in the england team in 5 years time.

Tests

Liam_Main wrote:

Raymond wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:Bell's another who i'm not sure will be playing for England in 5 years time.

Why not?

He'll be well into his 30s in 5 years time, a dip in form could lead to a younger player being brought in. AB I think will pass him.

Bell's a better test player than AB.

Now yes, i'm talking about in 5 years time.

He will only be 34 and he has awesome technique and great mental strength now so i think he will be a very good player for england till he retires maybe 35/6.

Raymond wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

Raymond wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:Bell's another who i'm not sure will be playing for England in 5 years time.

Why not?

He'll be well into his 30s in 5 years time, a dip in form could lead to a younger player being brought in. AB I think will pass him.

Bell's a better test player than AB.

Now yes, i'm talking about in 5 years time.

He will only be 34 and he has awesome technique and great mental strength now so i think he will be a very good player for england till he retires maybe 35/6.

Well said mate.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Technically correct players can do well even when their reflexes slow down.Look at Dravid.And compare him to Viv.There is absolutely no doubt that Viv was a FAR MORE GIFTED player than Dravid.But he struggled towards the end of his career coz he relied more on power and hand eye coordination rather than defense(not that his defense was terrible).On the other hand,the less gifted but the techincally sound Dravid is scoring runs at this age.


This is where Bell comfortably scores over AB.

And even in terms of natural ability I think Bell is a more gifted player and most would agree.

Me for one.

i think AB de villiers, by the end of his career, will be one of the greatest batsman ever to have played the game.

cricketfan90 wrote:i think AB de villiers, by the end of his career, will be one of the greatest batsman ever to have played the game.

Bell would be better.

cricketfan90 wrote:i think AB de villiers, by the end of his career, will be one of the greatest batsman ever to have played the game.

Hallelujah!

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:i think AB de villiers, by the end of his career, will be one of the greatest batsman ever to have played the game.

Bell would be better.

in your opinon.

cricketfan90 wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:i think AB de villiers, by the end of his career, will be one of the greatest batsman ever to have played the game.

Bell would be better.

in your opinon.

In the opinion of most with whom I have talked and discussed cricket

Bell is better than ABDV in tests at the moment. However, in ODI's there is no comparison...ABDV by far.

ab will be better than bell at some point, i think ab is the better test match player.

Shanky I would say the opinion on here is split. Bells marginally the better player now but AB will be the better player in the future.

Liam_Main wrote:Shanky I would say the opinion on here is split. Bells marginally the better player now but AB will be the better player in the future.

We shall see in another 8 years' time.

So many keep questioning inclusion of Kallis in any world XI!

What more does he have to do?

By the way, whoever was saying Barrington was cross between Trott and Bell, you are invited to our stand-up comedy club.

Leff
But Kallis would be up against Sobers.
Stiff opposition.

Leff wrote:So many keep questioning inclusion of Kallis in any world XI!

What more does he have to do?

By the way, whoever was saying Barrington was cross between Trott and Bell, you are invited to our stand-up comedy club.

Exactly.I would pick Sobers ahead of him.But to suggest that Kallis isnt a great allrounder is ridiculous.

Stella, Can't Kallis get in as a batsman in place of Weekes or Ponting or Headley?

leff
IMO, there are better batsmen than Kallis who would be ahead of him in the middle order of a world XI.
He can bowl but would he be needed as with Sobers at six, the team has five bowlers already.

Kallis is a fine player, but wouldn't have him in an all-time top ten. However, leaving him out of the "top ten that I've seen" list was pretty unforgiveable on my part, so I've edited that now, sorry

Kallis is a better bat than Ponting and stats show that.

But, Stella, your XI is not supposed to be a balanced all-time XI. Isn't it just a list of top ten middle-order batsmen?

If you are talking about middle-order batsmen only, then isn't Kallis qualified enough?

Don't you need batsmen who could play for a draw? If so, Barrington and Kallis have additional stonewalling qualifications!

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Tendulkar
Viv
Sobers
Knott
Akram
Warne
Marshall
McGrath

Sorry leff, I thought you were talking all time XI.

As for my top 10.
Kallis is close but name me one great knock by the man? I can't name one, which is odd considering he has 40 tons. I'm not knoking him as he is a great player but that's the reason I didn't pick him in my all time yop middle order batsmen.

AB de Villiers will comfortably surpass whatever Ian Bell gets in his Test career.

de Villiers, even as a youngster, looked the real deal, whereas Bell just looked out of his depth.

de Villiers is more gifted and the variety in his shots is just stunning.

Stella wrote:
Kallis is close but name me one great knock by the man? I can't name one, which is odd considering he has 40 tons. I'm not knoking him as he is a great player but that's the reason I didn't pick him in my all time yop middle order batsmen.

Kallis is not a "great knock" type of player. He frustrates the bowlers. He hogs to the crease. He is your man if you team is down in the 4th inning with no chance of winning, and you want to escape with a draw. Kenny Barrington was known for this too.

We Are Number 1!!! wrote:AB de Villiers will comfortably surpass whatever Ian Bell gets in his Test career.

de Villiers, even as a youngster, looked the real deal, whereas Bell just looked out of his depth.

de Villiers is more gifted and the variety in his shots is just stunning.

Comfortably is an exaggeration and you are just trying to denigrate an England player as always.

Leff wrote:

Stella wrote:
Kallis is close but name me one great knock by the man? I can't name one, which is odd considering he has 40 tons. I'm not knoking him as he is a great player but that's the reason I didn't pick him in my all time yop middle order batsmen.

Kallis is not a "great knock" type of player. He frustrates the bowlers. He hogs to the crease. He is your man if you team is down in the 4th inning with no chance of winning, and you want to escape with a draw. Kenny Barrington was known for this too.

Leff
I understand that but that's my reason

Kallis easily made it into my list, he's a bowlers nightmare. A player for all conditions and a player which can get a team out of a rut.

Liam_Main wrote:Kallis easily made it into my list, he's a bowlers nightmare. A player for all conditions and a player which can get a team out of a rut.

I agree, Liam.

The thing for me is this. For most of his career Kallis has been South Africa's premier batsman, who can play all the shots and has the ability to take control of a bowling attack and not just grind out an innings like a Dravid, whose role was exactly that.
But, he rarely has done when IMO the match situation needed it.

kallis world class, and people that question him being in an all time eleven, clearly havent seen much cricket.

cricketfan90 wrote:kallis world class, and people that question him being in an all time eleven, clearly havent seen much cricket.

I've seen my fair bit.

Each to their own, hey cricketfan.

We Are Number 1!!! wrote:AB de Villiers will comfortably surpass whatever Ian Bell gets in his Test career.

de Villiers, even as a youngster, looked the real deal, whereas Bell just looked out of his depth.

de Villiers is more gifted and the variety in his shots is just stunning.

Silly comment bell started his career vs Mcgrath, Warne and lee. Ab's technique is questionable he relies on hand eye coordination which he gets away with on flat pitches, when the ball moves around he look vulnerable.

Bell is a textbook player and ABD is flamboyant and fun to watch.

Surprisingly, Bell has had more ups and downs than ABD.

IMO, we haven't seen the best of ABD yet.

Averages - last 4 years

2008 - Bell 37, ABD 59
2009 - Bell 32, ABD 57
2010 - Bell 65, ABD 77
2011 -Bell 119, ABD played only 1 test

If Bell can maintain his resurgence in the past 2 years for another 5 years or so, he could be among the best players of the current era.

cricketfan90 wrote:i think AB de villiers, by the end of his career, will be one of the greatest batsman ever to have played the game.

He won't.

Compare him to Bell as a start. Bell's played 3 more innings than AB. He has 300 more runs, and 4 more centuries. His average is also higher by 2. So they have pretty similar stats, if anything Bell's are better by a tiny margin. They've also both had a good couple of yars. The one thing noticeable about AB is that his average at home is noticeably worse than his average away. Bell won't be remembered as an all-time great. Neither with AB.

Here are stats for Bell and ABD, excluding matches vs Bangladesh and Zimbabwe (considering that players with more opportunities against these two minnows are likely to have inflated stats):

ABD: 60 tests, 4527 runs, average 48.1
Bell: 63 tests, 4394 runs, average 44.8

Now tour (away) stats:
ABD: 26 tests, 2289 runs, ave 58.7
Bell: 29 tests, 2009 runs, ave 40.2

I am English.

Leff wrote:Here are stats for Bell and ABD, excluding matches vs Bangladesh and Zimbabwe (considering that players with more opportunities against these two minnows are likely to have inflated stats):

ABD: 60 tests, 4527 runs, average 48.1
Bell: 63 tests, 4394 runs, average 44.8

Now tour (away) stats:
ABD: 26 tests, 2289 runs, ave 58.7
Bell: 29 tests, 2009 runs, ave 40.2

I am English.

Um, that's some quite selective analysis. It takes away the fact that AB has performed poorly against Bangladesh. You could equally argue that pitches in the UEA are flat, so you can disregard tests played there.

As for looking at away stats only, why would you do that? Yes, it's harder to score runs on the road, but if you can't score them at home it does suggest there's an issue there.

Quite easy to spot why AB's average at home is lower than it is away. When he started off he keep wicket and opened the batting, until Bell who hid in the middle order.

AB's a total team man, never says no to any challenge.

Bell averages 100+ vs Bangladesh, AB averages next to nothing. That means Bell looks a chance to rack up the cheap runs, whereas AB scores his runs vs the stronger sides.

We Are Number 1!!! wrote:Quite easy to spot why AB's average at home is lower than it is away. When he started off he keep wicket and opened the batting, until Bell who hid in the middle order.

AB's a total team man, never says no to any challenge.

Bell averages 100+ vs Bangladesh, AB averages next to nothing. That means Bell looks a chance to rack up the cheap runs, whereas AB scores his runs vs the stronger sides.

AB has played 3 tests as the designated keeper, and one of those was in India. Even disregarding those tests, his average is still lower than Bell's. And his home average is still low.

As for opening the batting, how come AB gets credit for moving around the order, while Bell doesn't? De Villiers starts as an opener, isn't that successful so moves down the order - he's a 'team man'. Bell starts at number 3, isn't that successful so moves down the order - he's 'hiding'. That doesn't make sense. Bell isn't 'hiding' any more than AB is.

As for taking Bangladesh into account, you could argue that AB scores runs against the stronger teams. However, the fact he hasn't scored against Bangladesh surely counts against him, doesn't it??

I'm not trying to put AB down. He's a classy player who gives everything for his team. While he'll be remembered as one of the best players of his era, it would require a prologed continuance of his recent form for him to be remembered as anything else.