Ireland vs Australia - Discussion Thread

[MMC]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland:
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. Donncha O'Callaghan
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Stephen Ferris
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Eoin Reddan
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. Keith Earls
12. Gordon D'Arcy
13. Brian O'Driscoll (c)
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Rob Kearney

Replacements:
16. Jerry Flannery
17. Tom Court
18. Donnacha Ryan
19. Denis Leamy
20. Conor Murray
21. Ronan O'Gara
22. Andrew Trimble


Australia:
15. Kurtley Beale (NSW Waratahs)
14. James O’Connor (Western Force)
13. Anthony Fainga’a (Queensland Reds)
12. Pat McCabe (Brumbies)
11. Adam Ashley-Cooper (Brumbies)
10. Quade Cooper (Queensland Reds)
9. Will Genia (Queensland Reds)
8. Radike Samo (Queensland Reds)
7. David Pocock (Western Force)
6. Rocky Elsom (Brumbies)
5. James Horwill (Queensland Reds, captain)
4. Dan Vickerman (NSW Waratahs)
3. Ben Alexander (Brumbies)
2. Stephen Moore (Brumbies)
1. Sekope Kepu (NSW Waratahs)

Reserves:
16. Tatafu Polota Nau (NSW Waratahs)
17. James Slipper (Queensland Reds)
18. Rob Simmons (Queensland Reds)
19. Ben McCalman (Western Force)
20. Scott Higginbotham (Queensland Reds)
21. Luke Burgess (NSW Waratahs)
22. Drew Mitchell (NSW Waratahs)

COME ON IRELAND!!

littlejohn's thread about how we can beat the Wallabies:

Would like to hear other people's views on what ireland need to do to have a chance of beating Australia this Saturday. Here are some of my naive thoughts on what needs to happen:

1. Ireland to play with same agression when they played England earlier this year. While ireland have not really performed since then, I'm quietly confident they'll be fired up for this game!

2. Steal some of Italy's tactics for the game. Italy did really well in the first half vs Oz by kicking very well timed up and unders (generally aimed at AAC), and they were very well organised in defence, which resulted in frustration creeping in for the Wallabies. If they had a decent 10 this might have been a lot closer!

3. Start with ROG - His tactical kicking and ability to vary it is in my opinion a better fit for this kind of game. We can always bring Sexton on later if we need to change tactics. I think he's also marginally better at kicking penalty and conversions.

4. Whereever Cooper is standing in defence run at him (ideally using O'Brien/Ferris) - Pretty obvious one this, although he does often stand deep covering full back off lineouts, etc.

5. Play Australia at their own game - Australia have been very good at putting pressure on rucks, but Ireland will need to do the same when Australia have the ball, slowing it down where possible to stop Genia getting into gear.

6. Leverage Bowe and Kearney's height - Cross field kicks (timed well) could reap rewards for us. Rog is excellent at this.

All in all I accept this will be a tall order, but Ireland play the underdog tag better than anyone! I'm praying it won't be yet another herioc defeat. Bring on Saturday!

[D24tress]

Can nobody see it!!??

The reason why this guy keeps spouting out rubbish stats to support Earls ahead of Trimble is that, without Earls, there would be only 2 Munster players in the 15.

You could argue that POC is the only one who deserves his place!!!

I am 87.37636454% sure of that.

They nearly have a monopoly on subs though

Wanted: subs for ireland

Experience required: must have won heineken cup with deccie 4 years ago

[red_stag]

No probs Sin, sure if your ever in Musgrave or Thomond I'm sure we'll treat you like one of our own.

[rodders]

Willy I'm happy with the back 3, I just think Sin is talking nonsence about Trimble and to an extent Earls.

I think Australia will kick a fair bit and we'll need to be faultless at the back. Whatever limitations he may have in attack Kearney is the best in the world under the high ball.

Bowe picks himself and even when he's not on form he comes up with the important tries time and time again.

It's a tough call between Trimble and Earls and I'm happy for either to start. Earls is a lucky boy to get the nod so lets hope he repays Kidneys faith.

[red_stag]

Wanted: subs for ireland

Experience required: must have won heineken cup with deccie 4 years ago

The only player who won a Heineken Cup 4 years ago was Eoin Reddan

[clivemcl]

clivemcl,

You can't just "not like Sexton's face"!

You have to provide meaningless statistics which appear to support your assertion while ignoring the facts!

9 times out of ten when i see his face, I have to look away.
89% of rugby fans from Munster/Ulster/Connacht agree that his eyebrows are weird, whilst 99.9% of leinster fans state that his eyes are 'dreamy'.
In all his rugby appearances to date, there are no records of him ever having smiled.
Out of the age groups, nearly all of those in the 25-70 categories belived his eyes looked evil and that he probably has dark thoughts.
In contrast, the 13-17 year olds said he was the 'most totally awesome rad dude they knew of, and rated him higher than Dan Carter for 'yumminess'.



so... you decide...

[Mickado]

Two of the most famously vociferous and blinkered Munster posters on 606v2 are from neither Cork nor Limerick and both live in Dublin.

Hmmmm, you might be on to something there Stag…

[MrsP]

But clivemcl, you haven't allowed for the ROG sneer!

Or whether the eyebrow thing is more disturbing when he is playing against first class opposition.

Or even if the presence of Earls changes the effect only when he is beating untold numbers of defenders.

And then again, there's the unpredictable flight of the RWC ball to be factored in.

[red_stag]

Of course I am Mick. There's a phrase that the more Irish Irishmen live abroad. When I was living abroad I'd Irish up the accent and use a few cupla focal.



When your not from Cork or Limerick, you have to exaggerate your allegiances to Munster, almost to the point of sheer bias, just to feel like you still belong.



Some classic examples on this site.

[mrsuperclear]

Right before a number of you start googling ways to find out sin e's ip address can I interject a point.

I thought the majority of us where in unanimous agreement than our back 3 should be Trimble-Earls-Bowe. That was my way of thinking at least. What in God's name has young Rob done to earn his place besides being a specialist fb. We won't beat Australlia by playing conservatively, we won't come close.

Good point Will. Kearney hasn't played since the match away to France as far as I know either (a month ago now). At the same time, Earls hasn't played full back since against England (I think). Hard to see how either of them have earned the full back slot really. Felix Jones may well have got the job had he not got another injury. I think I would have played that back three too, but I'm not overly fussed about Kearney over Earls there. I'm just gonna continue to rage about D'arcy being undropable and Trimble being left out instead while laughing at sin é's stats.

Although on Sin, I'd say there's a strong probability (maybe 81.45679%) that he has just been WUMMING all the time on 606 and contrary to what he says about being born 20 miles from Limerick and is therefore actually a Limerickman, he was actually born 10 miles outside Galway to parents born in Belfast who were raised in D4 and therefore actually hates all turnip eating limerickmen and those rebels from Cork. His evil plan is to get all of us to hate Munster folk as much as he does by portraying every Munster fan as a red tinted eyed clown who juggles stats at everyone all day.

[rodders]

No probs Sin, sure if your ever in Musgrave or Thomond I'm sure we'll treat you like one of our own.

Stag I've been to the Burren a few times can I be a honoury Munster fan like Sin too please?

[D24tress]

Wanted: subs for ireland

Experience required: must have won heineken cup with deccie 4 years ago

The only player who won a Heineken Cup 4 years ago was Eoin Reddan

1 year ago- leinster
2 years ago- toulouse
3 years ago- leinster
4 years ago munster

And before you say connor murray wasnt playing
we all know what your up to here he's TOL in a costume,
thought ye had got one over on the jackeens
well not today

[red_stag]

Touche, D24. I just thought now = 2011. 4 years ago was 2007. 2007 Champs were Wasps.



But I get what you mean. Rodders, you have to show the same level of unwavering support to Munster in all you do to get that. Its not easy to get this honour.

[D24tress]

Touche, D24. I just thought now = 2011. 4 years ago was 2007. 2007 Champs were Wasps.



But I get what you mean. Rodders, you have to show the same level of unwavering support to Munster in all you do to get that. Its not easy to get this honour.

its alright i should have specified

can i support connacht now cause i think galways the greatest city ever

[Sin é]

I produced kicking stats to dispel your worry that Earls & Kearney kick away the ball too much. I'm not really worried about the amount of kicking they have been doing. You may want to worry about Trimble though.

I think he is hard done by because if BOD, D'Arcy & Bowe were able to beat a few defenders, he would have had a chance of getting selected ahead of Earls. Earls is streets ahead of everyone else in this department IN MY OPINION.

I am not worried about Trimble kicking the ball away because a) He is not starting and b) he rarely kicks the ball away in an attacking position.

Now before you roll out more stats, do you understand the difference between and attacking and defensive position??

I have slight concerns over Kearney and Earls because often when they get into space their instinct is to hoof up an up and under (Kearney) or grubber kick in behind the defence to chase (Earls). This is great if it comes off but it does leave you open to a counter attack and Australia have the most dangerous back 3 in the game.

If you don't understand what I'm saying please let me know and I'll type this a bit slower for you!

I was responding to this "My only concern is that Earls and Kearney tend to kick the ball away a lot." The least you could do is thank me for alleviating your 'only concern' to now being 'slightly' concerned.

I understand very well what you mean. I think you are far too conservative in your thinking. You need to take a few risks to get anywhere. Don't forget Australia can probably defend as well as we can. He who ventures, wins.

[Mickado]

Just heard Flannery is out of the world cup altogether now. crap.

Who to be called up to the squad? Varley? Sherry?

[MrsP]

Beeb says Varley has been called up.

Shame for Fla.

[The Great Aukster]

The problem with stats is that they have no context. A player may have passed rather than run or kicked but perhaps he SHOULD have run or kicked instead. Completing a pass to the wrong side that ignores an overlap on the other is bad play but that is not recorded in the stats. Similarly a tackle made could save a try or actually concede one if it was made on the wrong player. What does "defenders beaten" mean? Is that when a winger had the ball at pace against a static prop, or did it lead to anything concrete such as a scoring pass?

I too was at the Ireland - France game and Earls was poor that day, mainly handling/passing/decision making. However Kidney is right to include him as he has shown enough to warrant inclusion but then so has Trimble. Personally I'd have played him at 15 and had Trimble at 11 - a back three that should have started against the USA.

Can't understand why the ineffectual Murphy played the first game when Kearney is starting this one. If Kearney was carrying a knock, it makes even less sense. The Trimble, Bowe, Earls back three was the most effective of any Ireland has played in the last ten games, so why haven't we seen it again?

[greybeard]

And everyone leaps into action... "Quick, drop Varley from the Pro12 fantasy team!"

So Cronin in, after more or less being an afterthought in the warm up games.

On the whole Trimble thing, ah, I like the guy and I'd love to see him do well, but he has a horrible habit of making a break and then instinctively finding defenders rather than running to daylight. It's all a bit too mazy. If he could sort that out he'd be scoring tries rather than making long runs.

Earls is no better, though, but I can see why he'd be picked to start, he runs with a bit more conviction.

On defensive abilities I'd go for Trimble though.

[Sin é]

Of course I am Mick. There's a phrase that the more Irish Irishmen live abroad. When I was living abroad I'd Irish up the accent and use a few cupla focal.



When your not from Cork or Limerick, you have to exaggerate your allegiances to Munster, almost to the point of sheer bias, just to feel like you still belong.


Some classic examples on this site.

Some classic examples of failed debaters on this site as well - if you can't argue the point, just have a few digs/ridicule the poster instead.

[Tayto]

Of course I am Mick. There's a phrase that the more Irish Irishmen live abroad. When I was living abroad I'd Irish up the accent and use a few cupla focal.



When your not from Cork or Limerick, you have to exaggerate your allegiances to Munster, almost to the point of sheer bias, just to feel like you still belong.



Some classic examples on this site.

Iv'e read some crap on here but the prize for top clown goes to you sir.

[Sin é]

The problem with stats is that they have no context. A player may have passed rather than run or kicked but perhaps he SHOULD have run or kicked instead. Completing a pass to the wrong side that ignores an overlap on the other is bad play but that is not recorded in the stats. Similarly a tackle made could save a try or actually concede one if it was made on the wrong player. What does "defenders beaten" mean? Is that when a winger had the ball at pace against a static prop, or did it lead to anything concrete such as a scoring pass?

I too was at the Ireland - France game and Earls was poor that day, mainly handling/passing/decision making. However Kidney is right to include him as he has shown enough to warrant inclusion but then so has Trimble. Personally I'd have played him at 15 and had Trimble at 11 - a back three that should have started against the USA.

Can't understand why the ineffectual Murphy played the first game when Kearney is starting this one. If Kearney was carrying a knock, it makes even less sense. The Trimble, Bowe, Earls back three was the most effective of any Ireland has played in the last ten games, so why haven't we seen it again?

They have every context. Usually all those stats are supplied as well - such as turnovers conceeded etc.

Beating a defender means getting past an opposition player or an opp. player not being able to make a tackle on you. For any number of reasons the move might break down, such as no support, passing it to someone else and they drop the ball, knock it on etc.

[red_stag]

Tayto I'm CLEARLY taking the mick.

[WillyGilly]

Gutted for Flannery. Is it fair to say we have concerns over hooker now? Cronin has potential but not yet not even close. End to Jerry's career?

[rodders]

I understand very well what you mean. I think you are far too conservative in your thinking. You need to take a few risks to get anywhere. Don't forget Australia can probably defend as well as we can. He who ventures, wins.

Fair enough sin. We are now starting to get closer to a sensible debate and find some common ground . I don't think Australia can defend as well as us and I think we need to be patient with the ball in hand and chances will come.

We will need to take risks but we can afford to give posession away cheaply either. I have full confidence in our back 3 + Trimble to deliver the goods but all 4 will need career best performances.

[Mickado]

I think that will be the end for Flannery, i really hope not but i can't see him getting back after so many consecutive setbacks. Gutted for him, i met him once and he was a top bloke.

[MrsP]

That must be a serious concern WillyG.

They are saying 6 weeks so it is a significant injury. If it is the same calf as before you would have to question his longevity in the sport.

He is 32 already.

Hope I'm wrong.

[red_stag]

I'd be astounded if Flannery came back from this. I don't rate Cronin. I think very eager but prone to silly mistakes. Has had a fair bit of gametime for Ireland already. He has 13 caps to his name already - thats only a few less than Keith Earls or Jonathon Sexton. He needs to show a lot more than he has.

[greybeard]

13 caps, but mostly scraps at the end of matches, red_stag. Earls and Sexton have way more starts.

Cronin only started when both Best and Flannery were injured.

[red_stag]

Thats true actually Grey!

[D24tress]

stag cronin coming on after 60 mins against australia doesnt bother me, think the game will suit him.
But if he had to come on against italy (which with the way best throws himself around is very possible) i think he could struggle

[greybeard]

Thats true actually Grey!

Well don't sound so surprised!

[mrsuperclear]

The two memories I have of Cronin are (a) he spilled a pass in the summer tour against New Zealand last summer for which they went on to score their first try (before Heaslip got sent off so we were still in the game - although Kearney messed up there too as far as I recall) and (b) failing to catch that pass against France at the end of the six nations. He's a decent player and does have plenty of potential but he's got a bit to go before I'd be happy with him starting for Ireland.

Feel sorry for Flannery as I would assume this is the end and feel sorry for us that Varley is the next best option. Rory Best has just become key - he gets injured and we're in big trouble.

[red_stag]

Just hadn't really considered it. I've never really rated him. He does ok job bashing 2nd string players aside in the Pro 12 but I've yet to see anything concrete.

[Boyne]

Cronin. Oh holy Poopie we're Flip.

[greybeard]

The two memories I have of Cronin are (a) he spilled a pass in the summer tour against New Zealand last summer for which they went on to score their first try (before Heaslip got sent off so we were still in the game - although Kearney messed up there too as far as I recall) and (b) failing to catch that pass against France at the end of the six nations. He's a decent player and does have plenty of potential but he's got a bit to go before I'd be happy with him starting for Ireland.

Feel sorry for Flannery as I would assume this is the end and feel sorry for us that Varley is the next best option. Rory Best has just become key - he gets injured and we're in big trouble.

I agree with (a), for (b) he caught the pass but took a hit just after which knocked it out. (a) was bad, (b) was good defense.

[rodders]

Beating a defender means getting past an opposition player or an opp. player not being able to make a tackle on you. For any number of reasons the move might break down, such as no support, passing it to someone else and they drop the ball, knock it on etc.

Yes but you could be running sideways or backwards when you beat the defender.

You can also be effective in attack without beating defenders. For instance you may just be adept at finding gaps and running into space or you could be taking the contact and taking defenders out of the game.

Metres gained stats are deceptive too because the back 3 will likely pick up a lot of metres but they are likely to be behind the gainline.

Tackling stats can be as much a reflection as to the oposition a tactics and level of possession as anything else.

[rodders]

Cronin. Oh holy Poopie we're Flip.

Don't worry Boyne, we have Varley too.....

[valjester]

I'd be astounded if Flannery came back from this. I don't rate Cronin. I think very eager but prone to silly mistakes. Has had a fair bit of gametime for Ireland already. He has 13 caps to his name already - thats only a few less than Keith Earls or Jonathon Sexton. He needs to show a lot more than he has.

Sherry will hopefully cement the munster 2 now with varley away and then we'll have decent backup/challenger for best by the six nations. Sickened for fla, I'd say there is a chance he may have to retire soon which is really disappointing.

[Thomond]

Mickado,I would argue that since Dublin have had huge success in GAA this year combined with Cork's inpetitude that our chips have increased by 17.85%. Not being here you wouldn't know. Ya langer.

[red_stag]

Val, interesting to see if Sherry and Strauss make the 6 Nations extended training squad. That must be a realistic expectation.

[Mickado]

I think Cronin needs to improve on his handling and composure. He'll be a good player with time and in the right coaching set up. I don't have confidence in him now though.

[Pal Joey]

Not many aussies commenting on this topic - What are your views? Are you all assuming this is a fairly easy win?

I think the reason we are keeping a low profile here is simply because the team dynamic is relatively settled. Not really much chopping and changing going on except for Digby's thumb injury. I must say for the first time in over a decade our team looks very capable across the board.

I would never assume an easy win against Ireland. The fact that the warm-ups and the 1st match were not the Ireland we saw play against England at LR will always make us stop and think before saying 'easy win'. That is the big question mark for us as well as you guys. I'm hoping our lads have covered all bases, execute their plan properly. It's imperative we get out of the blocks relatively quickly (same for Ireland) and keep on going for the full 82 minutes.

If you comb through the pages and pages of this thread and the match day/discussion one; a couple of things are so clearly evident.

Firstly, there are many more Irish posters on this site than Aussies - which makes it so interesting to participate in (or just browse through) from afar as I do.

Secondly; how can we ever compete with you regular fanatical rugby followers? Your knowledge is off the scales, chock-full of details, facts and heart felt opinion. Then throw in some provincial banter/ribbing... it is absolutely beyond us to compete with that! You Irish are also the best writers on here by a mile!

Also, because rugby is basically an east coast thing in Australia - without the same degree of intense rivalry between states (unlike in the NRL) compared to your provincial rivalries... we don't really have any fires to stir. At the moment there is a genuine consensus that the mix is fair and spot on with a Qld majority... plus a few proven players from NSW and the other states. We just sit back like you and hope our team can play to their max - and like you; if they don't, then the blame/backlash/call for heads is so much less vocally intense than in Ireland. We just get angry more internally and simmer inside. Maybe we are more laid back before a big match... but we don't try to analyse as much. The simple approach.

[greybeard]

The situation with Cronin is very simple. If he does well he's another part of the sterling efforts Leinster have made to lead Irish rugby into a brave new world. If he doesn't... well, he's from Limerick.

[rodders]

Val, interesting to see if Sherry and Strauss make the 6 Nations extended training squad. That must be a realistic expectation.

You'd imagine both will be fast tracked into the National set up stag.

Behind Best we have no one really if thats the end of Flannery. I wouldn't be happy if Best got injured and Cronin and Varley were our match day hookers.

The sooner Strauss becomes IQ the better.

[valjester]

Val, interesting to see if Sherry and Strauss make the 6 Nations extended training squad. That must be a realistic expectation.

I think sherry has a greater potential than strauss, who has had a poor start to the season and isn't Irish. Sherry's throwing looks excellent and he seems to have a bit of pace, good hands and a good work rate. Sherry and annett would be the two Irish hookers that I'd see with the greatest potential, sherry probably has a better chance of making it due to his size.

[red_stag]

Agree on Sherry and Annett. Don't want to see Strauss succeed. I can't support the Project Player Scheme.

[GunsGerms]

The situation with Cronin is very simple. If he does well he's another part of the sterling efforts Leinster have made to lead Irish rugby into a brave new world. If he doesn't... well, he's from Limerick.

What a stupid post. He has played any games for Leinster yet. He has 55 caps for Connacht and 2 for munster. It's pretty obvious he learned his rugby at connacht.

[greybeard]

The situation with Cronin is very simple. If he does well he's another part of the sterling efforts Leinster have made to lead Irish rugby into a brave new world. If he doesn't... well, he's from Limerick.

What a stupid post. He has played any games for Leinster yet. He has 55 caps for Connacht and 2 for munster. It's pretty obvious he learned his rugby at connacht.

Oh calm down would ya, it's a joke.

Has everyone overdosed on umbrage pills today?

The good news is it was supposed to be stupid.

[Mickado]

Val, interesting to see if Sherry and Strauss make the 6 Nations extended training squad. That must be a realistic expectation.

I think sherry has a greater potential than strauss, who has had a poor start to the season and isn't Irish. Sherry's throwing looks excellent and he seems to have a bit of pace, good hands and a good work rate. Sherry and annett would be the two Irish hookers that I'd see with the greatest potential, sherry probably has a better chance of making it due to his size.

Project player or not, you can't base someone's potential on 2 games. He was one of the best hookers in Europe last year, why not take that into account?

[Sin é]

Beating a defender means getting past an opposition player or an opp. player not being able to make a tackle on you. For any number of reasons the move might break down, such as no support, passing it to someone else and they drop the ball, knock it on etc.

Yes but you could be running sideways or backwards when you beat the defender.

You can also be effective in attack without beating defenders. For instance you may just be adept at finding gaps and running into space or you could be taking the contact and taking defenders out of the game.

Metres gained stats are deceptive too because the back 3 will likely pick up a lot of metres but they are likely to be behind the gainline.

Tackling stats can be as much a reflection as to the oposition a tactics and level of possession as anything else.

Well, if stats are so misinformative, why do they bother producing them. Why do you hear the players saying occasionally my stats are 'good' or something like that.

Sean O'Brien was selected as the best player in Europe and his stats also seemed to be the best set of stats as well. Is that just a coincidence?

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