Steve Bunce discussion for Primetime

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:36 am

As you know, we are doing a interactive session with Primetime during the fight tonight.

As one of the opening discussions, Steve Bunce has contacted us with the following message:

I'm rating Mayweather through the ages...Olympic feather, super-feather,
lightweight, light-welter, welter and light-middlle. Let's look at fighters
at those weights who would have beaten him....simple.

Over to you guys - make your comments good - you might make it on air!

by Rowley Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:24 am

Avoiding the obvious ones like Robinson and Leonard I have always felt at welterweight Charley Burley would have turned Floyd over. When I think of Floyds assets such as sublime defensive skills, the ability to draw leads, a terrific jaw and pinpoint accuracy with his punches I see all of those in Burley plus a few more gifts beside that perhaps at welter Floyd did not possess.

these are genuine KO power and a more offensive arsenal as well as a genuine spiteful side when someone got under his skin. For me welter is about as high as Floyd is comfortable at, but with Burley he is in witha guy who fought and beat light heavies and even heavyweights on occasion.

by Wazzas New Hair Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:30 am

Will start from the top and work my way down

Light Middleweight- Only really Hearns and McCallum are worth mentioning but both of them would be overwhelming favourites to not only beat Mayweather but to knock him out with some to spare. Were the division as strong as it was at the turn of the century with men such as Wright, De La Hoya, Mosley and Forrest competing there or thereabouts then I don't think Floyd ever jumps up in an attempt to win a title, has a real possibility of losing to all four at the weight.

Welterweight- Stylistically and ability wise Leonard, Robinson and Hearns are too good for him at the weight, not only are they better than him at the weight but they're also overall better fighters. As well as though 3 there are various men through history who would be at least slight favourites to win- Napoles, Gavilan, Griffiths then you have the likes of Langford and Walcott who have the power to knock anyone at the weight out.

Light Welterweight you have Pryor who could be an absolute nightmare for Mayweather, as he showed against Arguello even the best of fighters can become confused and overpowered by his relentless aggression, chin, power and unconventional style, would favour a surprise Pryor knockout.

I'll haul in the rest into one big group as the best men at the weights fought at more than one of them usually.

Chavez, Duran, Canzoneri, Ross, Armstrong are made for Mayweather, he counter punches them for all 12/15 rounds barely losing a round, unlike Leonard he's too cool headed to bow to the bravado of a brawl. Arguello is a man who with his straight accurate punches would be the man in the lower of these divisions to stand the best chance and do think his accuracy would be very hard to counter punch, he didn't waste punches and wouldn't make fundamental mistakes.

by TopHat24/7 Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:11 am

Hearns would take him at welter and light-middle. Floyd doesn't have the power to trouble Hearns' slightly shaky chin and Tommy had one of the best jabs boxing has ever seen which would trouble PBF with it's tremendous range speed snap and power. At 154 especially I think it'd be a thorough destruction.

by TopHat24/7 Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:14 am

rowley wrote:Avoiding the obvious ones like Robinson and Leonard I have always felt at welterweight Charley Burley would have turned Floyd over. When I think of Floyds assets such as sublime defensive skills, the ability to draw leads, a terrific jaw and pinpoint accuracy with his punches I see all of those in Burley plus a few more gifts beside that perhaps at welter Floyd did not possess.

these are genuine KO power and a more offensive arsenal as well as a genuine spiteful side when someone got under his skin. For me welter is about as high as Floyd is comfortable at, but with Burley he is in witha guy who fought and beat light heavies and even heavyweights on occasion.

Surprise surprise, Rowley plumps for Burley... Smile

by Rowley Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:40 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
rowley wrote:Avoiding the obvious ones like Robinson and Leonard I have always felt at welterweight Charley Burley would have turned Floyd over. When I think of Floyds assets such as sublime defensive skills, the ability to draw leads, a terrific jaw and pinpoint accuracy with his punches I see all of those in Burley plus a few more gifts beside that perhaps at welter Floyd did not possess.

these are genuine KO power and a more offensive arsenal as well as a genuine spiteful side when someone got under his skin. For me welter is about as high as Floyd is comfortable at, but with Burley he is in witha guy who fought and beat light heavies and even heavyweights on occasion.

Surprise surprise, Rowley plumps for Burley...

Folk would worry I was ill if I didn't.

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:14 am

I guess Whitaker would have to be mentioned at lightweight. It would be a horrible fight, very scrappy and difficult to score, but Pernell is certainly one that could have caused Floyd plenty of problems, and certainly had the ability to win a decision.

I feel that too much is made of Floyd's alleged weakness against southpaws...yes, Judah troubled him for all of 3 or 4 rounds, but in general he has adapted and passed with flying colours. However, the fact that Whitaker fought of this stance cannot be ignored, and would add to the overall conundrum provided by Sweet Pea. Do you attack, and risk being countered, or do you sit back, fight a tentative fight and hope to sneak a decision?

by TopHat24/7 Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:18 am

Fists of Fury wrote:I guess Whitaker would have to be mentioned at lightweight. It would be a horrible fight, very scrappy and difficult to score, but Pernell is certainly one that could have caused Floyd plenty of problems, and certainly had the ability to win a decision.

Would you say sweet pea was arguably just a better version of floyd? Agree it'd be a horrible fight to watch, be like chess, surely one for the purists!

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:21 am

A Floyd during his tenure at lightweight was more aggressive than the Floyd we see operating at welterweight, so I'd say Floyd's offensive side was superior to that of Whitaker's, however it could be argued that this is offset by Whitaker's tremendous defence.

In summary, Pernell has the slightly better defence, Floyd has the slightly better offence.

Can't see any more than a round or two in the result.

by John Bloody Wayne Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:32 am

Burley v Mayweather would be intriguing. They're both safety first in some instances and both have great ring gneralship and ability to anticipate incoming punches.

Mayweather has more flash and maybe more mobile footwork. Burley moved well but in a more flat footed way. Burley's chin and power are far greater than Floyd's. He stopped at least one heavyweight, floored Achie Moore four times and was never stopped in his career. Even against the likes of Ezzard Charles.

Mayweather would most likely be the sort of personality that would really get under Burley's skin, and when he didn't like a guy, he let it show.

At welter Hearns would be an absolute nightmare for Mayweather. He survives to lose a UD at best in my opinion. I haven't seen any of the tenacity from Mayweather that Leonard showed to beat Hearns. I can't see him braving the right hand and if he did he'd likely get startched.

Leonard, with his natural size advantages and overall skillset - offensively and defensively - would surely be a favourite against Mayweather.

What about Kid Gavilan?

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:30 pm

John Bloody Wayne wrote:

What about Kid Gavilan?

That is one I'd see going to the scorecards, given that Gavilan was next to impossible to stop, but didn't pack much of a wallop himself. Gavilan was a seasoned welterweight, and was an easy nights work for nobody, but I'd see Floyd possessing the defensive nous and eye catching work to take that decision by a few rounds.

by Jimmy Stuart Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:15 pm

Evening chaps, work prohibits me posting much if at all these days, hope you all enjoy tonights action. I salute you fellas who can survive till 5am watching the action, I'll be just popping along to get the Sunday newspapers when you're off to bed.

Anyway one other guy I'd be happy to bet beating Floyd, since Jeff has used Burley. Is Sandy Saddler, he was tall rangey, lovely puncher and very difficult to outpoint, not forgetting he knew the odd rule breaking tricks of the trade.

One thing's for sure: Mayweather won't leave the ring looking like he did stepping through the ropes...

I can imagine some difficult spots for Saddler in terms of speed and possibly outboxed for stretches, but this is a fight that is, well, a fight- something I believe Mayweather wants to avoid at all costs. Saddler will be bulling him and mugging him all night, using every dirty tactic possible.
I do think Sandy's one punch power can be a tad overrated but no doubting he was a supreme puncher, he stopped many fighters with collateral damage. Mayweather was supreme at lightweight and in my opinion at his strongest but if I had to give the edge to anyone, it goes to the guy who made a career out of making the other guy have to adjust to him... Sandy liked a dogfight, that's what he'd make it. Ultimately dragging Mayweather down and drowning him in the latter rounds.

Many fighters throug history would be too much for Floyd in my opinion but Sandy is one that often gets overlooked.

Thanks and enjoy the fight chaps, ps if someone can record it on VHS for me I'd appreciate it.

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:19 pm

Hi Jimmy, great to see you posting again, mate. Hope all is well with work/family etc?

Saddler is a great pick, he showed against Pep what he could do against high quality defensive boxers, and it's difficult to argue that he couldn't do the same to Mayweather.

by Jimmy Stuart Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:29 pm

Hi Fists

Family is great although my pockets feel a bit lighter having just had the daughters wedding to deal with.

Hope you're very well and the family, nice to see you're doing a sterling job mate. Hopefully get some pockets of time to throw in the odd post or two in the forthcoming weeks mate.

Enjoy the fight, like to see Ortiz pull it off but the head says Floyd on a comfortable decision, take care in the meantime.

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:32 pm

Ouch, well hopefully the wedding was worth it!

Yeah I'm well and the family are fine, thanks. Hopefully you can get online when you get a moment, your input has been missed.

I'd like to see an Ortiz upset win, too, but I can't help but think about the Peterson draw...how does that fighter beat Floyd? I just don't see it.

Take it easy, mate.

by Captain Lucas Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:38 pm

Fighters from the old eras of boxing were in the dark ages of sophisticated training and nutritional techniques. With the exception of a handful of fighters, there's nobody that would've touched Mayweather for my money. Look at Napoles, regarded as one of the best welters of all-time - a guy who Floyd would have schooled. The sport of boxing has changed. It's not the same as it once was.

by John Bloody Wayne Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Captain Lucas wrote:Fighters from the old eras of boxing were in the dark ages of sophisticated training and nutritional techniques. With the exception of a handful of fighters, there's nobody that would've touched Mayweather for my money. Look at Napoles, regarded as one of the best welters of all-time - a guy who Floyd would have schooled. The sport of boxing has changed. It's not the same as it once was.

Ach, this again?

If being modern is always an advantage and always gives "nutritional benefits" (always sounds like a euphimism for steroids) then why do modern contenders look like this:

Spoiler:

and contenders frm 50 years ago look like this
http://www.antekprizering.com/norton7075.html

and why, pray tell, has there never emerged a flyweight who could punch like Wilde? Why, if being modern is intrinsically superior are there (AT MOST) two boxers since Pep who had his pure defensive boxing skill?

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:24 pm

Just changed that picture to a spoiler, John.

by Rowley Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:31 pm

Don't want to ruin the thread but Pavlik vs Robinson at middle, who you picking?

by John Bloody Wayne Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:33 pm

Fair enough Fists, we should give people the choice not to see BK Toney's belly.

Rowley that's a totaly mismatch and you know it.
Pavlik is modern. His superior nutritioning and weight training techniques would see him blast out Robinson inside of three rounds.

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:46 pm

Ha, I think we all know that the 'modern fighters are far superior to old timers' is complete guff, and each fighter should be judged on their merits.

Anyway, back on topic Wink

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:49 pm

I reckon it will be a good topic of discussion for buncey to be honest.

How is everyone shaping up - its not 9 o'clock and I am drifting off already!

by John Bloody Wayne Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:52 pm

Buncey, as a naturally balding man, do you think Mayweather Jr is bald by choice or did mother nature thrust baldness upon him?

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:53 pm

I'm about to go for a run, it may liven me up, but likewise it may knacker me out and make matters worse.

Planning on having a couple of hours kip when I get back.

by KP4959 Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:27 pm

Steve Bunce would have Knocked Out Mayweather at any of those weight classes

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:35 pm

Who had the better defence?

Whitaker, Locche or Mayweather? I would include Pep but he was in a world of his own!

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:39 pm

Here are a couple of questions for the studio guests, too, if we have the opportunity to put our questions to them.

@ Amir Khan: Amir, obviously you have the Peterson fight first and nothing can be taken for granted, but when you do make the move up to welterweight it would appear that Eddie Hearn's Matchroom Sports are already lining up their fighter Kell Brook for you. How do you currently rate Kell as a fighter, and which of your attributes would you suggest is best to deal with his style?

@ Amir Khan: Having fought and beaten Victor Ortiz in the amateurs, how do you feel he deals with fighters with superior hand speed, as Mayweather undoubtedly has? Does he have the attributes to negate this?

@ Duke: What would your advice be to Victor Ortiz ahead of this fight, given that he has never experienced such an occasion, or fought an opponent of this stature?

by The Galveston Giant Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:40 pm

Julio Cesar Chavez Light Welterweight - Chavez was a great pressure fighter and i think he would love Floyd to lay up against the ropes inviting him in, i'm sure he would be just as comfortable chasing him down if Floyd got on his bike, he had an iron chin so i don't think Floyd would trouble him with his counters. I feel Chavez's workrate and variety of punches would win him a UD in this one. Julio Cesar Chavez W UD

Alexis Arguello Super Featherweight - If fancy Arguello to stop Mayweather in this one late on. I reckon Floyd could give Arguello plenty of trouble with his speed early on building up a decent lead but feel it would only be a matter of time before Alexis starts to catch up and starts landing the jab, eventually followed by some big straight rights to end the fight. Alexis Arguello W KO11

by 6oldenbhoy Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:41 pm

What about Meldrick Taylor at light welter? Both Olympic Medallists at feather. Gut feeling is a close maybe even split decision for Mayweather, eventually gets to grips with Taylor's style and eeks out a close decision. However his handspeed could cause Mayweather a lot of trouble and wouldn't be surprised if the decision went the other way.

by The Galveston Giant Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:48 pm

Meldrick Taylor is a good shout, could see him giving Floyd trouble with his speed, popping the jab followed by the right hand occasionally, would be a close one but he has a great chance.

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:50 pm

Floyd against Duran would be an interesting one, especially at lightweight. As we all know, Floyd struggled pretty badly with Jose Luis Castillo first time round, and that fight remains to this day the one fight that he probably did lose, albeit very closely.

No disrespect to Castillo, but Duran is a superior fighter in pretty much all aspects, and you only have to look as far as 'The Brawl in Montreal' between Duran and Leonard to see him deal with a highly skilled technician. Leonard avenged that one pretty convincingly, but would Floyd have the work rate of Ray in order to keep Duran off him? Gun to head, I'd say Duran by late KO/unanimous decision at lightweight.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:57 pm

Saddler at super feather he would have loved Floyd backing up and throwing single shots. He would have stopped him early with his relentless pressure and power punches.

Duran at lightweight just to strong and almost impossible to keep off you at 135lbs.

Locche at 140lbs his defence was to good to get undone by Floyds single shots. His hand speed was tremendous as well and could be aggressive when it called for it.

Napoles at 147lbs great ring generalship, good defence solid power a nightmare for any fighter at 147lbs.

Hearns at 154lbs that jab would be a nightmare for Floyd who would be kept at range until Hearns decided it was time to end it.

Not a bad standard to lose to tbh.

by 6oldenbhoy Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:02 pm

Winky wright would be a terrible fight, but Winky's size, peekaboo defence and jab would give Mayweather all sorts of problems. I'd fancy him to outpoint Floyd. Not the most fashionable name but very under rated at lightmiddle.

by School Project Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:23 pm

Floyd looked his weakest in the first 3 or 4 rounds against Judah than he has ever done so. What worked so well?

Judah's Southpaw stance, straight left to the body and head. Mayweather always learns from his mistakes and once exposed, he adapts quickly in the ring and makes sure the same mistakes are never made again.

I hope Ortiz has noticed SOME of these weaknesses for him to have a chance.

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:06 pm

bump it as Buncey is on air now!

Fists of Fury wrote:Here are a couple of questions for the studio guests, too, if we have the opportunity to put our questions to them.

@ Amir Khan: Amir, obviously you have the Peterson fight first and nothing can be taken for granted, but when you do make the move up to welterweight it would appear that Eddie Hearn's Matchroom Sports are already lining up their fighter Kell Brook for you. How do you currently rate Kell as a fighter, and which of your attributes would you suggest is best to deal with his style?

@ Amir Khan: Having fought and beaten Victor Ortiz in the amateurs, how do you feel he deals with fighters with superior hand speed, as Mayweather undoubtedly has? Does he have the attributes to negate this?

@ Duke: What would your advice be to Victor Ortiz ahead of this fight, given that he has never experienced such an occasion, or fought an opponent of this stature?

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:20 pm

Vargas looking poor so far - 2-1 to lopez after 3 for me.

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:24 pm

2-2 after 4

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:28 pm

3-2 Vargas

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:33 pm

I reckon 3-3 after 6

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:35 pm

I am definitely watching a different fight to the commentators!

Why are they saying Vargas is winning?

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:36 pm

I have it 4-3 Vargas after 7. Feel it is slightly closer than Benny and Wayne have it.

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:37 pm

I have 4-3 Lopez

Cant see Vargas losing on Mayweathers card though!

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:37 pm

I have 4-3 Lopez

Cant see Vargas losing on Mayweathers card though!

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:41 pm

surely 5-3

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:41 pm

Scored the 8th 10-8 Lopez.

Upset could be on the cards here.

Surely Floyd can't be serious when suggesting that Khan needs to beat Vargas before having a chance of facing him? Khan at this point would spell bad news for Vargas. Men against boys.

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:43 pm

I reckon its 77=74 (If I have my calculation right!)

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:44 pm

Vargas' conditioning seems poor, given his age and lean physique. He looks to struggle to keep up the intensity for the entire three minutes of each round, and resorts to coasting.

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:45 pm

86-84 for me to lopez going into the last

by Adam D Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:49 pm

I reckon it will be a split decision but I truly believe Lopez should win it by a point

by **Fists of Fury** Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:49 pm

I have it a draw. Fully expect the decision to go to Vargas by a couple of rounds, though.

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