The perfect golfer?

First topic message reminder :

Just for fun.

As far as I'm aware there has never been a player with a truly complete game, the players who have been most successful have excelled in only a couple of elements of the game at any one time and have simply been less bad at the other elements than their peers.
My question is:- Which players have been the best at each element of the game? (please don't go back to days of yore, most of us aren't that old)
I'll kick it off with a few suggestions.

Driving: Westwood.
Fairway woods: Harrington.
Long Irons: Garcia.
Short Irons: Donald.
Short Game: Mickelson.
Putting: Faxon.
Imagination/Creativity: Seve
Mental Game - Matchplay- Poulter
Mental Game - Strokeplay- Faldo (reluctantly)

oldparwin wrote:Sorry Doon do not remember him,

I used to watch Sandy Lyle, and thought his control of long irons was at most times as good as Jack and Gary.

He still doesn't deserve to be RC Captain

Super

You little sh** stirrer

Come on OP, you've taken one too many grumpy pills today. Yesterday you were making lecherous and libidinous comments and now you are being a curmudgeon.

Our very own Tony Jacklin was a pretty good iron player back in the day. Norman was a superb driver (esp when you consider he was using persimmon for a large part of his career), Lyle and Jack the best 1 - 2 iron players and Jack the best for course management by a country mile; he not only won 18 but came runner up as many times. Trevino & Seve for their imagination and unconventional approaches, Faldo, Player and Watson for mental durability and all-round excellence on a variety of different courses, Crenshaw and Roberts for their putting; Watson, Seve, Mickelson and Olazabal for their chipping, Woods and Seve for self-belief and determination.

Super
I am afraid I do not need any grumpy pills, but when you start to talk about GOOD golfers, the ones who could work the ball, hit high and low, fades, and draws, then you are not talking about this generation, how many golfers today do you see hit drivers of the deck as their 2nd shot, how many of todays golfer would be capable of hitting the driver of the deck, would think very few, but 20 years ago it was common shot most pro golfers could and would use in each round.

The golfers of today think a good shot is a 340 yard drive then to hit the 2nd shot pin high, and spin it back 30/40 feet from the hole!!!

I find that pro golf today can be very boring compared to how it was played, drivers of the deck, 1 and 2 irons to just to try and reach par 4s in 2 shots, that was skillful golf not the power hitters of today.

I will say it for you "baldy old fa** " yes but watched more skilful golfers than you will ever see today.

I seem to recall Jason Day using a driver for his second shot at the start of this year.

30yards away from his first shot

Davie
bet he duffed that shot as well

oldpar,
No! He parred the (par 4) hole!

Doon,
Perhaps the first time Harry Bannerman's been mentioned on 606v2?

kwinigolfer wrote:oldpar,
No! He parred the (par 4) hole!

Actually if I remember it rightly he his his second driver a long way but into (or at least close to) a bush. PLayed a miraculous shot from there to the green and sank the putt.

So I guess you could say the second driver wasn't great (but not exactly "duffed")

SR

You would, of course, get people who hit the ball further than others. I was not stating that those that hit it further necessarily win more tournaments. However, as I said, I think it would be far more interesting to watch players having to think their way round courses which were designed in a particular way with hazards at particular distances, etc rather than just bomb the ball over the trouble.

I would much rather see players having to hit woods into par 5s than, as can be the case, 5 or 6 irons [or less on occasion]. It possibly depends on what you were brought up with [I suspect you are slightly younger than I am] - if the game now is what you have experienced then that will be what you know and are used to.

In my opinion, a large amount of the golf on the US PGA tour is tedious in the extreme as there is a complete lack of subtlety about the way so many of the pros now play [because they don't need to be]. Grip it and rip seems to be the order of the day with a large number of them. The equipment nowadays is so forgiving it is incredible and it definitely encourages the longer hitting [I hit the ball further now than I did 20 years ago and it is definitely not to do with me being fitter !].

I can fully understand why the pros take the tack they do as it would be daft to think otherwise [indeed the modern equipment possibly makes it more difficult to manipulate the ball as dramatically as in the past - certainly I am not capable of slicing the ball with my driver now in the way I could {unfortunately} with my old wooden driver].

To my mind they need to address the distance the ball travels as there will be courses which could become obsolete for the better players if they do not - and, in some cases that would be a real shame both for the game itself and, indeed, these longer hitting pros.

For me certain players MUST be there...Woods, Nicklaus, Seve. Others have a time based element to them e.g. The McDowell of 2010 was a closer-outer supreme...christ I wouldn't let him near any list in 2011. Having said that, I'd be happy with.

Driving...Sergio
Long irons...Westwood, Sandy Lyle
Short Irons...Donald
Other short game...Donald, Mickleson
Imagination/creativity...Seve
Bunker play...Els
Putting...Woods (pre 2009)
Mental Strength...Woods (pre 2009) Nicklaus

With regard to the coffin dodger element...if people want to see just how good Hogan was (I've left him out due to the thread creators wishes) ...there's plenty on youtube. How many majors would he have won had he been prepared to come over here more than once and without the near fatal car crash.

Kwinni
Your wrong.
I have managed to get him on a few times, ask Gael!

Was a toss up between him the young Bernard Gallacher and Peter Thompson.

Good Walk and OP, you may well know that I'm not an advocate of the "Bombers" crew preferring to plot my way round the course and leave myself my preferred distance into the green.

I just get the impression that when they hark back to days of old in golf, tennis or football it is hard to compare eras due to the changes in sport over time. If I started a thread on Tennis or Football, I wouldn't expect too many people to mention Tom Finney or Ken Rosewall, not because they weren't good exponents of their games but because most people aren't old enough to remember them and fewer can relate to them because they play a different type of game to what is played now.

ADjusting the ball to make it fly less distance will not make any difference. THe longer players will still play longer, in any event the longer hitters on tour are not winning any more than anyone else, and yes they frequently do have to create shots because the longest players on tour are also some of the least accurate and find themselves in all sorts of positions where someone with good course management wouldn't.

With regard to shot creation it's now late September and my personal favourite shot of the year is STILL Bubbas' 310 yard carved driver off the deck 2nd shot to the 660 yard 18th at Kapalua....to 10 feet!!

oldparwin wrote:...how many golfers today do you see hit drivers of the deck as their 2nd shot, how many of todays golfer would be capable of hitting the driver of the deck, would think very few, but 20 years ago it was common shot most pro golfers could and would use in each round...

Saw Garcia hit one last weekend. Pretty decent albeit pushed a bit right of target. Good strike though with a 460cc head off the deck though. He's a bit unusual I guess. Monty used to do it occasionally and I've seen Bubba do it as well. Not as common today as it used to be.

Re. modern pros and distance etc, just stick some penal hazards (i.e. revetted bunkers etc) at ~280 - 320 yards out such that the shorter hitters don't need to worry much but the bombers have to ease off from the tee. Can't see it happening, esp. in U.S. of A. as crowds seem to think long hitting is the be-all and end-all but would perhaps be a fix.

Doon

Can you remember Bob Cole (open at carnoustie 1975) shot course record, I think it was back to back 66s, great driver and long iron player, although I think Watson won the open that year

Didn't Watson (Tom this time) hit driver, driver putt on the par 5 7th during the final round of the Duel in the Sun at Turnberry in '77?

Jas
You could be right as Tom Watson was as good as anyone at hitting the driver of the deck.

oldparwin wrote:Doon

Can you remember Bob Cole (open at carnoustie 1975) shot course record, I think it was back to back 66s, great driver and long iron player, although I think Watson won the open that year

"Mmmn, The good old days, wasn't it. Irons 200 yards not a foot off the ground, mmmn, hickory shafts wasn't it? Flat caps, plus fours, Balata balls. Far cry from these days wasn't it. Has golf been ruined mmmm, jumpers for goalposts............"

OPW

Remember him, I once played with him and a Southern states American with the wonderful name of Sammy Appleblaum.
Cole was my size 5'10 and 10 stone. He had a huge arc and could hit the ball miles. He was pally with Dale Hayes.

Super

You sound like a jealous wee boy

Doon
I followed him around carnoustie that year, and with his game was surprised he didn't win more

OP, I'd actually quite like to play Stoke Park circa 1964 against Goldfinger and Oddjob, but apart from that I hanker over 60's era golf the same way I wistfully look at tweed clothing, consumptive pot and Penfold Commando's.
Reminds me of Monty Python, "When i were a lad I'd been to work before I'd even got up, and were given a lump of coal to eat."
Some things are better left in the past.

SR

Whether you yourself are an advocate of bombing it or not doesn't really matter [unless you are one of the pros we have been referring to]. The game for the average amateur player is less relevant to what I am trying [and apparently failing] to get across.

I am not harking back to bygone ages just for the sake of it. The point I am making is that the equipment is leading to a situation where [in my view] the game is less interesting. There is less need now for pros to plot their way round courses [as you do at your level] than there used to be. To me, that makes for less interesting golf. Probably the same reason I find links golf with a decent wind interesting when watching the pros - the distance book goes out the window and suddenly some of them just do not know what to do, it leads to players having to manufacture far more shots, etc.

I would also dispute your view that the bigger hitters are often creative due to the places they find themselves- I would suspect that the majority of them just reach for the 60 degree wedge as the go to option out of rough they find themselves in ! That certainly strikes me as being the case in the States where just about anything hit into a green will hold, even from the deep stuff...

super

My generation changed most things in the 60s and 70s and had a bloody good time doing it, must admit we did not get all the fashions right (those awful golf jumpers) but paved the way for generations to follow, so just say thank you oldman for making my life better for me

Perhaps GWS, but I don't believe the assumption that modern players are any less skilled than those from the 60's.
Perhaps though, it is less interesting.

I disagree that they just reach for the 60 degree either. If I know that a 60 degree isn't the best club (many pro's won't even carry anything that lofted) for most shots out of the rough, it's pretty guaranteed that a pro won't use it either.
Modern golfers also do not reach for the driver nearly as much as people think, you just have to watch a tournament for that. In fact the people most likely to reach for driver are mid handicappers who have no concept of course management, and so I'd certainly agree that club golf can be boring from that point of view, but I haven't seen any evidence that shows the pros didn't get in just as much trouble back in the good old days, or that they were playing different shots to get out of trouble.

The notion of power in the game is certainly over played by the media, those who know, know it comes down to the short game and getting up and down, those with the power or those benefitting from equipment improvements are not exactly yielding it to slay the rest of the weaker field. If we went back to persimmon and balata I'm sure we'd still find the players at the top still at the top. Solid ball strikers like Donald, Stricker, Furyk etc will always do well, whatever they play with, because they've got golfing brains, as well as touch. Power doesn't really come into it.

OP, do you have a similar interest in golf which predates your birth? Thought not, so why should I? I'm not saying it didn't play a part in the development of the game but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to discuss it in an article I started when I'd actually set out the criteria clearly for the golfers I would like discussed just because a couple of old codgers want to wax lyrical about nostalgic times.
I don't mind that you've gone off topic at all as it is after all an open forum, but I resent that I'm supposed to talk about the past, when I wasn't there to see it. That's exactly why I suggested people relate it to the current generation or very close to it.

SR
You still don't get it.

My grandfather was a former Scottish Foursomes Champion and played in a time of hickory shafts, stymies, bare bumpy greens and the odd sheep hazzard.
He would look on me in the same manner that Op and I are looking on you.
Different times, different skills, different rules, different equipment but same game.

The main difference in the 1910's. 1960's and 2010 is that thousands more people play golf now.

I haven't been arguing in terms of skill, SR. Less interesting is the point I have been trying to make.

You make a salient point about the best players, however. I agree that the cream would come to the top as it does at present. I think I should have perhaps been making the point that the lesser players are better served nowadays with the equipment than the lesser players from the past were. In other words the equipment is lessening the gap between the top quality pros and the more average ones by being dint of it being more forgiving - the bad shot now does not end up as poorly as it would have in the past.

It would interesting to look at the same length of course played with today's equipment and that of the, say, 70/80/90s. I am pretty sure that on average the driving distances would be up and the shots into the greens would be played with higher number irons today. I do think power does have an impact - in general, it must be easier more often than not to play a more lofted club into a green.

BTW the reference to a 60 degree wedge was just an example - I have no idea what degree wedges the average pro would carry but I am pretty sure there are more of them that are more lofted than was the case before. I can fully understand why they are popular with the pros as they obviously do the job.

P.S. I am not old enough to remember golf in the 60s !! I appreciate that I probably sound like an old fart but ......

Doon,
Bobby Cole used to be married to Laura Baugh, remember her? Arguably ruined Cole's golf career. Followed a friend round the final round of a tournament he won in Abilene, playing with Bobby Cole - about 1982-ish.

Very impressed with you keeping Harry's Banner alive.

PS SR

Op and I are of a generation that questioned the established way of thinking.
If people set silly rules and told us what we should say or do we usually did the opposite.

So if someone sets a post up with limitations that are exclusive we are naturally programmed to break the rules. Little old rebels that we are. Sorry

Kwinni
Yes that's a Laura Cole [for the fire] I played with him in the 1960's

drive4show wrote:

John Cregan wrote:

drive4show wrote:

John Cregan wrote:Bad weather/wind: Big Darren
Putting: Woods, Webb Simpson(based on the last month granted), Stricker, Zach Johnson
Chipping: Mickelson, Harrington, Donald
Bunker Play: Els
4-8 iron : Tom Watson
Driving: Garcia, Westwood, Norman
Par 5's: Woods
Finishers when in contention: Dyson, Bjorn, Stricker, Faldo, Woods

Bjorn? Are you nuts? RSG 2003 when leading with 3 play, that event a couple of years ago when he put about 26 balls in the water off the last tee?

That was typical Bjorn then, but i think he's won 4 tounaments in the last 2 seasons by taking the thing by the scruff of the neck and getting it done.

There is no doubt, that while he is not as consistent, week in week out, he is definately a better "finisher" than McIlroy, Westwood or Donald................

Hmm...agree that he has improved but a better finisher than Donald? Can't agree with you on that one.

Post 2010 Bjorn has been quite impressing closing tournaments. It's only in 2011 where Donald has also been impressing (although he lost in Hilton Head to Snedeker) - otherwise he has usually been quite nervy come final 9.

According to pga stats the average drive on tour from 1990 to 2011 has only increased by 29 yards. Considering courses have also increased in length has this really made a difference?

I don't buy into the argument about it's all a power game because it that were the case the biggest hitters would win week in week out. Yet Cilla Black (Suprise Surprise) they don't. Look at the multiple winners this year, Mark Wilson, Luke Donald, Steve Stricker, Webb Simpson none of those are the longest players Webb Simpson is the longest of that bunch but I think you get the point. Also Cog Hill was meant to be a bombers paradise,yet the winner was JR admittedly no slouch but no in the bomber league and Luke Donald with another high finish.

Look at the FedEx rankings of the top 6 only one super long player DJ, the rest made up of the by the likes of Donald, Kuchar, Rose etc...

No matter how far you hit it the simple matter of fact is the winner is the person who gets the ball in the hole, that means a good short game, and being a good putter.

If it were a case of simply hitting it long and being able to use a 60 degree wedge as some have said then Sergio would be a multi major winner and he isn't........

Also on that note a 60 degree wedge, check out most pro's bags and you;ll see that somewhere in the region of about 90% don't carry a 60degree wedge as there is no need for it. The exception to the rule is big phil because he is all about the imagination and something he likes. Most guys have no need for a 60degree and when I see am's using them I seriously wonder WHY???????

super_realist wrote:According to pga stats the average drive on tour from 1990 to 2011 has only increased by 29 yards. Considering courses have also increased in length has this really made a difference?

29 yards, average, increase is quite a bit. That's 300 yards vs. 270 (obviously!). 30 yards ~= 2-3 clubs with the irons so instead of, say, a 4-iron in to the green, it's now a 7-iron. Big difference.

It's not that much over 21 years, only just over a yard a year. However, you are forgetting that championship courses are much longer than they were 21 years ago? 29 yards would be a lot if the courses had also not increased in length but they have.

The interesting thing is that in the last 10 years the difference in average drive distance is only 11 yards. So perhaps if the course length has not changed then the difference is about ONE club. Advantages in technology has almost reached a zenith and they are unable to keep the exponential improvement in distance going.

i think the main advantage of new drivers since 1990 is bigger sweet spots ie greater forgiveness.
this means that the benefit is greater for a club player than for a professional.

i think the main advantage of new drivers since 1990 is bigger sweet spots ie greater forgiveness.
this means that the benefit is greater for a club player than for a professional.

I picked up an original Taylor Made driver circa 1980's the other day and the head looked the size of a soup spoon.
I would love to see the young thrusters on here playing with that.

I have some playable hickories and can hit a 180 yard drive with them.

pedro wrote:

drive4show wrote:

John Cregan wrote:

drive4show wrote:

John Cregan wrote:Bad weather/wind: Big Darren
Putting: Woods, Webb Simpson(based on the last month granted), Stricker, Zach Johnson
Chipping: Mickelson, Harrington, Donald
Bunker Play: Els
4-8 iron : Tom Watson
Driving: Garcia, Westwood, Norman
Par 5's: Woods
Finishers when in contention: Dyson, Bjorn, Stricker, Faldo, Woods

Bjorn? Are you nuts? RSG 2003 when leading with 3 play, that event a couple of years ago when he put about 26 balls in the water off the last tee?

That was typical Bjorn then, but i think he's won 4 tounaments in the last 2 seasons by taking the thing by the scruff of the neck and getting it done.

There is no doubt, that while he is not as consistent, week in week out, he is definately a better "finisher" than McIlroy, Westwood or Donald................

Hmm...agree that he has improved but a better finisher than Donald? Can't agree with you on that one.

Post 2010 Bjorn has been quite impressing closing tournaments. It's only in 2011 where Donald has also been impressing (although he lost in Hilton Head to Snedeker) - otherwise he has usually been quite nervy come final 9.

I really don't think Donald has been an impressive closer this year at all.
especially considering the amount of top 10s and top 5s hes had

Hend, what do you think is the main advantage of new drivers since 1990?

Doon, Once a year post season OldMan Mav, BigBro Mav and myself play a game at an away course where we use old equipment, you can use anything you like and the only stipulation is nothing newer than 1995. It's done as a fun thing where we go away for a weekends golf and thats always on the first day and has been a bit of a family tradition as the first weekend we did away together was surprisingly 1995 hence the equipment rule.

When you line up the clubs from then compared to todays it's amazing to think we ever used it, and really makes you focus on accuracy over distance.

My bag always lines up the same as follows.

Driver: Taylor Made Flex Twist Driver Circa 1992 (the one with black and purple shaft)
3 Wood: Wilson Firestick (head is like the size of a teaspoon)
Irons: MacGregor VIP blades
Putter: Original Ping Anser

No extra wedges, as they weren't really used that much back then so shot making is the premium, and makes for some good scores, we always play stableford and the winning score is still usually around 36 points..

Mav
Sounds like fun.

Next time you should also add a new rule.

Play in charity shop golf clothing, pre 1995 obviously.
Pringles and tartan breeks will get you looked at!

Is always a fun weekend and we have it booked in for first week november this year, looking to play Belfry this year, not my personal favourite but we rotate who chooses the venue on a 3yearly cycle so it's fair that we all get to choose somewhere. OldMan Mav chose this year as he never played the belfry but has been to each ryder cup it's held so he's feeling nostalgic.

I'll suggest the idea of pre 95 clothing could be fun a bit of pringle's very own geometric george jumpers and a pair of farah trousers could be good. May even have to put a bladed 2iron in the bag this year try and do a christy o conner with it.

Thing that is surprising when you use the old equipment you automatically make the changes and focus on being more accurate and shaping the ball and manufacturing shots which you wouldn't automatically do with the new gear we use today

Mav

I have a set of McGregor V I P blades with the 2 iron, didn't think they were that old, not sure if I got them before 1992 or just after that.

They certainly have a very small sweet spot, and can warm your hands up on a cold day

OP. The ones I use for this day are from the late 80's and are a thing of beauty and have the 2 iron to it, certainly a small head and a thin shot on a cold day can still felt about 5 holes later, but you know when you hit the sweet spot because you can virtually not even feel the ball come off the face

Farah troosers, now there's a blast from the past.
Don't forget to wear them 1" short with white socks.

Doon would it be sinful to go a stage further and wear a pair of Don Johnson style crocker and tubbs, flecked troosers........

Doon

All my golf trousers are Farah, get them from Matalan, like the slit type pockets (god am I that old)

oldparwin wrote:Doon

All my golf trousers are Farah, get them from Matalan, like the slit type pockets (god am I that old)

OPW

Please don't tell me you wear white socks.

I was on an interview pannel once and we were discussing the last candidate.
'I would not give him the job' said my colleague 'for Crissys sake he was wearing white socks'