Toulon fans rejoice - Alain Rolland confirmed as ref for HC final. Garces gets Amlin Final.

http://www.ercrugby.com/news/28481.php#.U2PI8YFdWa8


http://www.ercrugby.com/heinekencup/news/28478.php

Everything going the way of Toulon so far. They also get to have their own kit.

You might say - oh Beshocked you're making excuses already etc. You shouldn't blame the ref.

Saracens struggle when Rolland is referee - that's just the reality. We lost to Toulon last season - guess who was the ref? Loss to Clermont in the quarter finals? You guessed correctly - Rolland reffed that match. Loss to Toulouse away from home this season? Yup Rolland again.

Now I am not saying that we lost because Rolland was the ref but obviously he's a ref that as a team we have struggled with for whatever reason.

The only game in recent memory I can remember when Rolland reffed us when we have beaten French opposition was vs Racing Metro. We almost lost because of a very poor decision he made near the beginning of the match. This incident rocked our early momentum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn7sXouUXBI

Rolland does not even give a yellow card for this..... first the Racing Metro player shoulder charges one Saracens player then clotheslines Strettle and knocks him out.


Doesn't help my opinion of Rolland when you look at his heritage - French father and French name, plus his truly atrocious reffing style - "me,me,me!" I am going to be whistle happy!

His style of reffing also suits a side like Toulon who have been winning matches through penalty machine Jonny.

Obviously I am not happy about this. Would have much preferred the far superior Nigel Owens.

To be fair beshocked, it wasn't until about the 3rd replay there that I could clearly see what had happened to Strettle. Don't think the TMO could help on those things last year, so difficult for Rolland to have done anything other than give the knock on, which he did.

Rugby karma   

I do however agree that having Owens refereeing would have been better for the game. Rolland refereed matches can become quite stop-start affairs. Owens would have let things flow a bit more I feel, and with these two sides, that would be a good thing for the paying public.

The cherry on the cake. Its destined to be the worst final ever..

Can't be worse than the Leinster/Ulster mismatch.

Can it?

Nah.

profitius wrote:The cherry on the cake. Its destined to be the worst final ever..

well the Irish provinces should of pulled their fingers out and got into the final to "save rugby".

Toulon will win anyway,Sarries will have a semi final the week before when Toulon will be resting up won't they.That's too big an advantage to overcome at this level and anyway Sarries aren't really at the level of Toulon,the big Clermont performance is overshadowing their real form.

This is a team that only beat Connacht in Galway due to a very dodgy ref decision and were comfortably beaten home and away to a pretty average Toulouse side,they also limped past Ulster when the had 15 against 14 for over 70 minutes.

Asoreleftshoulder

Whatever we are in the final.

Your record against us is 5-1 because you're simply not good enough.

So surely we are to take from this that the powers that be in Europe rate Rolland as the best referee in Europe?

beshocked wrote:Asoreleftshoulder

Whatever we are in the final.

Your record against us is 5-1 because you're simply not good enough.

What are you on about,what record?I don't dispute that you are in the final I just happen to think it's a bit of a fluke and the fact you'll have a big game the week before the final when Toulon are resting up is a bigger disadvantage than some imaginary problem with the ref.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
So surely we are to take from this that the powers that be in Europe rate Rolland as the best referee in Europe?

Nope the ref can't be from England or France so they could have a ref rated higher who isn't eligible,in reality Owens is a better ref but Rollands fluent French regularly gets him appointed for big matches involving French clubs plus he's retiring after this season so it's probably a bit of a sentimental pick too.

Who needs a ref with fluent French for a team like Toulon?


Saracens vs Ulster - HC head to head.

Fluke? Of course a bitter bad loser Irishman would think that. I would say there has been some fortune sure but that spanking of Clermont justifies are spot plus are very high try count.

Imaginary problem with the ref? Not at all.

Surely even one eyed Irishmen know that Owens is a vastly superior ref to Rolland.

Aucklandlaurie I think he got it due to it being his last game as a ref. it's to do with sentiment plus isn't the ERC based in Dublin?

Gee you guys sure know how to make things complicated, we just pick the best man for the job.

Would make more sense to have Owens. Would make for a better game for the neutral too IMO.

beshocked wrote:Who needs a ref with fluent French for a team like Toulon?


Saracens vs Ulster - HC head to head.

Fluke? Of course a bitter bad loser Irishman would think that. I would say there has been some fortune sure but that spanking of Clermont justifies are spot plus are very high try count.

Imaginary problem with the ref? Not at all.

Surely even one eyed Irishmen know that Owens is a vastly superior ref to Rolland.

Aucklandlaurie I think he got it due to it being his last game as a ref. it's to do with sentiment plus isn't the ERC based in Dublin?

I'm a Leinster fan,wanna try boasting about that record?

Boasting? Leinster fans are probably the most arrogant in Europe.

Oh sorry I thought you were an Ulster fan.

beshocked wrote:Boasting? Leinster fans are probably the most arrogant in Europe.

Oh sorry I thought you were an Ulster fan.

Yes boasting,you were trying to dismiss my point just because Saracens have a winning record against what you perceived to be my team.Now that you don't have that superiority you instead change tack,you can't dispute my argument so instead try to insult me so that I'll be dragged off the point.

George Carlin wrote:Please can everyone take a giant chill pill? Will temporarily lock this thread if necessary whilst everyone goes for a cup of tea and calms down.

Please do, getting bored of reading how rugby is going down the pan because the irish aren't in the final.

I mentioned the record vs Ulster because of how arrogant and unsporting the Irish have been since Ulster lost to Sarries. Trying to make yourself seem superior I think if we took on Leinster these days we could certainly beat you.If Saints can do it then so can we.

Strange decision as he got it last year. Surely Ownes should have got it.

Sorry george carlin. I just feel the Irish give a lot of us English fans with a lot of disdain.

For what it's worth, I definitely think it's worth setting out Sarries' record with Rolland refereeing because I for one didn't realise it was that bad.

Of course I am making excuses. Rolland will be the ref. I just hope Sarries can adapt to his style.

beshocked wrote:I mentioned the record vs Ulster because of how arrogant and unsporting the Irish have been since Ulster lost to Sarries. Trying to make yourself seem superior  I think if we took on Leinster these days we could certainly beat you.If Saints can do it then so can we.

I agree you'd beat us if you played us now,we got a new coach who learned his trade in a boshers league and you can see our skill levels get worse week on week.

All this has nothing to do with my original point which you refuse to engage with,Sarries will almost certainly lose to Toulon because they aren't that good despite one big win they've been poor in Europe this year.They have the additional handicap of playing a Aviva semi when Toulon get to rest up.

If you're going to reply to me try actually addressing my points instead of just insulting me.

George Carlin wrote:For what it's worth, I definitely think it's worth setting out Sarries' record with Rolland refereeing because I for one didn't realise it was that bad.

How bad is it? 3-1 seems to be what beshocked is saying,hardly earth shattering.

Asoreleftshoulder we will see.

That said Toulon record with Rolland as the ref is 100% victories...  

Owens had seemingly a bad day in the office during last game so was told to go on holidays early.
The rest of the refs are equally bad although someone like barnes at least hardly favors any team. At least Rolland is retiring so he will have time to enjoy his holidays on the French riviera after   
We should be pleased that we dont get Clancy!
If it was me I would have picked a random SH ref just to add some uncertainty to the game

Yawn..you can't have Owens as he is British, it is correct that Rolland gets the gig. Beshocked is just getting his excuses in early. If sarries are good enough they will win.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Gee you guys sure know how to make things complicated, we just pick the best man for the job.

Aw, c'mon Laurie.  Everyone just gave you a free pass on your comment.  
But as your momentary evil twin, I can't let it go: You have Steve Walsh.  If you said you pick the prettiest for the job, well maybe......

ME-109 wrote:Yawn..you can't have Owens as he is British, it is correct that Rolland gets the gig. Beshocked is just getting his excuses in early. If sarries are good enough they will win.

Are you serious? Who do you think the ref was for France v England in the 6Ns this year?

Hah Owens reffed sarries' first loss to Toulouse this season. Suppose that was Rolland's fault too? Quit whining please jaysus.

As for Owens being a better ref- that's the easy conclusion to make, merely because he chooses to shout at players to follow his orders mid offence rather than penalising them. Makes for a more entertaining game and he's been doing it for years.

While I enjoy his style purely as it makes for a great spectacle - it's too far down the non penalising route to rank him top of the reffing pile. Rolland is the exact opposite, doesn't let enough go. I'd say they're about equal in reffing stature.

Kunu I am not whining you idiot. Yes I know Saracens lost with Owens as ref - what's your point? I still rate him much higher than Rolland.

Just pointing out that Rolland is a good choice if you are a Toulon/French fan. A half French ref, who doesn't let many things go. Generally when he refs French teams they win. Suits Toulon's style.

Interesting article from the Sunday times basically saying that the French pressurised the ERC into picking Monsieur Rolland. Evidently the French wanted the half Frenchman picked for the final. Can't blame them for that. They want to gain as much as advantage as possible.

If you can't see that it's an advantage you're an idiot. Refs do make a difference!

Me-109 why do you think the French would be practically begging the ERC to have Rolland?

beshocked wrote:Kunu I am not whining you idiot. Yes I know Saracens lost with Owens as ref - what's your point? I still rate him much higher than Rolland.

Just pointing out that Rolland is a good choice if you are a Toulon/French fan. A half French ref, who doesn't let many things go. Generally when he refs French teams they win. Suits Toulon's style.

Interesting article from the Sunday times basically saying that the French pressurised the ERC into picking Monsieur Rolland. Evidently the French wanted the half Frenchman  picked for the final. Can't blame them for that. They want to gain as much as advantage as possible.

If you can't see that it's an advantage you're an idiot. Refs do make a difference!

Me-109 why do you think the French would be practically begging the ERC to have Rolland?

Think you're right. That half will favour Toulon. Bad enough you would think, but then the other half hates Sarries   

Hoping Sarries get stuffed just to see you implode online   

Munchkin wrote:

beshocked wrote:Kunu I am not whining you idiot. Yes I know Saracens lost with Owens as ref - what's your point? I still rate him much higher than Rolland.

Just pointing out that Rolland is a good choice if you are a Toulon/French fan. A half French ref, who doesn't let many things go. Generally when he refs French teams they win. Suits Toulon's style.

Interesting article from the Sunday times basically saying that the French pressurised the ERC into picking Monsieur Rolland. Evidently the French wanted the half Frenchman  picked for the final. Can't blame them for that. They want to gain as much as advantage as possible.

If you can't see that it's an advantage you're an idiot. Refs do make a difference!

Me-109 why do you think the French would be practically begging the ERC to have Rolland?

Think you're right. That half will favour Toulon. Bad enough you would think, but then the other half hates Sarries   

Hoping Sarries get stuffed just to see you implode online   

Very classy

Good grief. It wasn't meant to be classy. It was meant to be in keeping with a wind up thread, and not to be taken seriously.

A wee bit touchy there, nathan   

A Saracens fan complaining about things not going their way is quite ironic after the ref decisions that happened in the QF and SF.

Munchkin wrote:Good grief. It wasn't meant to be classy. It was meant to be in keeping with a wind up thread, and not to be taken seriously.

A wee bit touchy there, nathan   

Just getting tired of some of the irish posters, the common theme is that Rugby is at a loss because Sarries are in the final. which of course is silly.

Rolland was always likely to get the gig. Nothing wrong with Toulon wanting him to ref the game as he speaks French and English.

It's up to the coaches and captains to ask how he will referee the area of the breakdown.

Not forgetting the scrum lottery. Another key area for any ref to police given the strength of the Toulon front 5.

This game is likely to be decided on both those facets of the game.

I'm sure Rolland will want to oversee a keenly contested final that is worthy of this legendary competition.

beshocked wrote:Who needs a ref with fluent French for a team like Toulon?


Saracens vs Ulster - HC head to head.

Fluke? Of course a bitter bad loser Irishman would think that. I would say there has been some fortune sure but that spanking of Clermont justifies are spot plus are very high try count.

Imaginary problem with the ref? Not at all.

Surely even one eyed Irishmen know that Owens is a vastly superior ref to Rolland.

Aucklandlaurie I think he got it due to it being his last game as a ref. it's to do with sentiment plus isn't the ERC based in Dublin?

or

beshocked wrote:Kunu I am not whining you idiot. Yes I know Saracens lost with Owens as ref - what's your point? I still rate him much higher than Rolland.

Just pointing out that Rolland is a good choice if you are a Toulon/French fan. A half French ref, who doesn't let many things go. Generally when he refs French teams they win. Suits Toulon's style.

Interesting article from the Sunday times basically saying that the French pressurised the ERC into picking Monsieur Rolland. Evidently the French wanted the half Frenchman  picked for the final. Can't blame them for that. They want to gain as much as advantage as possible.

If you can't see that it's an advantage you're an idiot. Refs do make a difference!

Me-109 why do you think the French would be practically begging the ERC to have Rolland?

beshocked, not sure you can have it both ways - either it doesn't matter cos Toulon don't have that many French players in their side or it matters cos he's a biased half-French fella

Is Saracens know what they're getting penalised for and don't do anything about it it's their own fault. Having said that the match hasn't even been played yet and both teams have the chance to affect the game a hell of a lot more than the ref! 'Excuses' in early eh.

VinceWLB Yes we have had the rub of the green and I feel that's partly down to not having Rolland as ref.

Equally I find it ironic that criticism of Rolland is not allowed yet criticism of Owens and Garces is.

Rolland is a ref I have disliked long before this match. I said before the Ulster game I was pleased we didn't have him, pleased before the Clermont game he was not picked.

The ref has an unhealthy amount of influence on a match generally - Rolland brings that to another level - he's the star of the show. His style of reffing is awful in my opinion.

Hound and Harrow a ref who speaks French is unnecessary for a team like Toulon who barely have any Frenchman in their 23.

Toulon don't have many Frenchman in their team but they are still French in name. Of course Toulon are pleased they have a half Frenchman who favours their style of play.

http://www.espn.co.uk/premiership-2013-14/rugby/story/224025.html

I still hope my team can win but we have an uphill battle even before the game has started.

Munchkin let's be honest you hope Saracens lose because you still feel bitter Saracens knocked Ulster out in the 2nd consecutive HC.

As to why I am passionate about this - this is one of our biggest games of the season. I don't want to blame the ref - yet if you pick a ref like Rolland - calls of bias are inevitable, especially when the French pressured the ERC to pick him.

VinceWLB wrote:A Saracens fan complaining about things not going their way is quite ironic after the ref decisions that happened in the QF and SF.

Precisely my own thoughts when I read this. If anyone has had a rub of the old green with refs it's Saracens.
That being said Rolland is IRISH not French and despite his French heritage he is still IRISH, an IRIsh ref. Did I mention that he's IRISH?

P.S. On current form and if we are to read into the semi finals one iota I believe it would take Rolland to have wagered his mortgage on Touon and ref accordingly for Toulon to have any hope of even a draw. Have faith Beshocked, Sarries will soon have that trophy, I would bet a fair amount on it.

P.P.S. Beshocked, just because your side knocked us out of the competition again (with the help of a French ref) does not mean we are bitter and wishing defeat upon Sarries. Don't commit that fatal human error of judging other's thoughts based upon what your own would be. We are well over it now and have our own mountain to climb in the Pro12.

beshocked wrote:

As to why I am passionate about this - this is one of our biggest games of the season. I don't want to blame the ref - yet if you pick a ref like Rolland - calls of bias are inevitable, especially when the French pressured the ERC to pick him.

Its going to be some fun on here next season when the French really take full control of the new cup under in Switzerland.   

Rolland isn't biased towards the French. He did Red Card a French player for a tip tackle which everyone seems to forget about. I'd say that the reason the French don't like Owens is because Irish teams have invariably won finals when he refs it which they interpret as anti-French rather than perhaps Pro12 teams are more used to his style of reffing.

Pete I acknowledge we got the rub of the green. Does not mean we would have still not won - we crushed Clermont, with Ulster who knows? Sometimes Saracens switch off/get complacent when things seem too easy,even though the game isn't won.

I just find it comical that mainly Irish fans think it's acceptable that because Saracens have a bit of fortune it means we should have one of the most controversial refs for the final.

You can call Alain Rolland Irish but he's always be of French heritage like Kevin Pietersen will always be seen as South African by some, North English, Manu Tuilagi Samoan, Eoin Morgan Irish etc.

Representing another country does not take away that attachment/identity with another.

It's not even French bias - I would rather have Poite,Gauzere or Garces. Just because I rate them higher.

I wish I could share your optimism.

Its concievable that Sarries could end the season with nothing to show for their efforts - on the other hand, they 'could' do an AP and HC double.

Its hard to see them slipping up in the AP, after how convincing they've been, they'd be gutted losing in a play-off or the final. But, the tempo of matches in the closing stages of the AP and the HC final could see them stretched to breaking point. What do they concentrate on? If they concentrate on the AP, they might have to sacrifice the HC, if they concentrate on the HC, they might not have the oomph to compete at full strength in the AP.

They are a very good side, but maybe they aren't good enough to win both - yet.

Jimpy we could lose both agreed.

Leicester are emerging as the main contender in the AP at the moment with players coming back, decent form and will be less stretched in terms of resources.

Could be all or nothing.

Beshocked Rolland is an Irishman, he even has an Irish accent

I can assure you that there is nothing wrong with a wee rub of the green now and then, I don't think any side, club or international could ever claim it's not happened to them at some stage. It's when you get it at the most vital stages that people spit it at your face with vitriol.
Personally, I'd take a rub of the green any time and I hope you Sarries boys get a bit of luck from Mr Rolland and then you might like him a little more

There is no doubt about how much I wish you well in the final, it's an amazing experience to have your team there whether you win or lose. My only gripe with Sarries is the 'Ash Splash' so don't let him do it anymore and I might even become a fan.