Scotland vs England - Match Thread - Team News - etc...

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

How the teams line up

England team: B Foden; C Ashton, M Tuilagi, M Tindall, D Armitage; J Wilkinson, B Youngs; M Stevens, S Thompson, D Cole, L Deacon, C Lawes, T Croft, L Moody (capt), J Haskell.

Replacements: D Hartley, A Corbisiero, T Palmer, N Easter, R Wigglesworth, T Flood, M Banahan.

Scotland team: C Paterson; M Evans, J Ansbro, S Lamont, S Danielli; R Jackson, M Blair; A Jacobsen, R Ford, E Murray, R Gray, A Kellock (capt), A Strokosch , J Barclay, R Vernon.

Replacements: S Lawson, A Dickinson, N Hines, R Rennie, C Cusiter, D Parks, N De Luca.



Last 10 meetings

2011 England 22 - 16 Scotland
2010 Scotland 15 - 15 England
2009 England 26 - 12 Scotland
2008 Scotland 15 - 9 England
2007 England 42 - 20 Scotland
2006 Scotland 18 - 12 England
2005 England 43 - 22 Scotland
2004 Scotland 13 - 35 England
2003 England 40 - 9 Scotland
2002 Scotland 3 - 29 England

England 7 - Scotland 2 - Draw 1

England 273 pts - Scotland 143 pts


IMO on paper the Scots might as well start packing their bags, but I have a strange feeling they might just pull it off, Chris Paterson will have plenty of shots at goal if England continue getting penalised at the breakdown and we all know what that means, he very rarely misses unless his wearing cherry and White!

Or am I being silly?


RWC so far

England

Argentina 9 - 13 England
England 41 - 10 Georgia
England 67 - 3 Romania

England PF 121 pts - PA 22pts


Scotland

Scotland 34 - 24 Romania
Scotland 15 - 6 Georgia
Argentina 13 - 12 Scotland

Scotland PF 61 - PA 43


Missed this one,

England 17 tries to Scotlands 4



Discuss

[eirebilly]

The Hague is a good hours train ride from Amsterdam i think Mysti.

Pretty sure that there is an Irish pub in The Hague that will be open and showing the matches. I will ask around for you.

[Guest]

really looking forward to this game, think england will win with a bonus point

[mystiroakey]

Nice one mate.

We will have a car mind- but its gonna be very early i suppose.

[Comfort]

"plucky wales" - its almost as if you didnt even watch the game beshocked.

nothing plucky about the perfomance. the only teams that beat wales if they play like that again for me is the tri-nations. and SA/Aus would be close games. NZ are on another planet at the moment, only the other 2 teams dont have the mental hang-ups their NH counterparts do about playing them.

Its just the question of whether Wales will raise their game and cut out the silly errors/penalties again in this competition.

they got past their mental demons against Samoa, and I'll be looking for them to really take it to Fiji this weekend.

cheer up pal

[Great White]

Every year its 'if Wales play like that again' or 'if Wales can out the silly errors' or if this and if that.

If my Auntie had balls, she'd be my Uncle...

[George Carlin]

Every year its 'if Wales play like that again' or 'if Wales can out the silly errors' or if this and if that.

If my Auntie had balls, she'd be my Uncle...

I checked the other night. She does have balls.

(etc. to fade)

[Comfort]

Every year its 'if Wales play like that again' or 'if Wales can out the silly errors' or if this and if that.

If my Auntie had balls, she'd be my Uncle...

[HERSH]

Be fair guys.

On their day Wales can beat anyone....

Apart from NZ...

[Boyne]

Be fair guys.

On their day Wales can beat anyone....

Apart from NZ...

I agree. England are the only ones with the pedigree to beat the All Blacks.

[rodders]

If my Auntie had balls, she'd be my Uncle...

Not necessarily .

[beshocked]

Comfort you shouldn't see it as an insult. Plucky is a good thing.

I did watch it actually. I wanted Wales to win because overall I thought they outplayed South Africa for large parts of the game. They couldn't close out the game and ultimately lost.

That's a big if. It was a good performance but you still lost. You should have won but you didn't. Was it the weight of expectation? Lack of experience? This Welsh team is evidently talented but does it have the mental strength to win key matches? The jury is still out on that one!

In world cup knockout matches England have generally been more successful. Admittedly reaching them has helped with this!

[Portnoy]

Be fair guys.

On their day Wales can beat anyone....

Apart from NZ...

I agree. England are the only ones with the pedigree to beat the All Blacks.

Boyne, France have the pedigree (and I expect them to make it to final).

The ABs are the better team yet they have no pedigree to speak of in knock-out rugby.

But I can't really see them tripping up this time. BUT both teams would have to be able to opt for a B game plan - that's always been the Kiwis' reason for past failures.

Having said that, I still suspect that the ABs' A game will be sufficient

[TheGreyGhost]

Yes, NZ really have to try to get the kind of Pedigree that Wales, Ireland, Scotland and France have in knock-out rugby.

If we could reach for the dizzy heights of winning one rugby world cup a decade ago by sneaking down the easy side of the draw and avoiding NZ who regularly trounce them by 40 points in RWCs when they meet NZ could count their pedigree cemented.

[EnglishReign]

Yeah, like when NZ won with the easiest run of games ever seen in a RWC. Not even needing to beat SA or Australia; one of those teams NZ have failed to beat in every world cup encounter.

[TheGreyGhost]

Wrong EnglishReign, NZ knocked out South Africa in 2003.

You remember, South Africa? The team that pants-downed England 37-0 in 2007 and then for an encore went on to beat them a second time?

Aside from which NZ made '87 look easy - but we beat anyone of note at the time.

Australia were merely a poor team who couldn't even beat Wales.

[EnglishReign]

I said "one of those teams", meaning Australia.

And yes, of course I remember South Africa. They smashed a terrible England side 37-0 which still managed to get to the final by beating France. Remember France

[TheGreyGhost]

Yes I remember they were the team Wayne Barnes preferred faced England in the next round. Knowing they had no chance against NZ.

[HQ matt]

gg do you really blame the ref completely for NZ going out of the last world cup?

[TheGreyGhost]

Let me see.

Yes.

Any one of 28 penalties or spotting a forward pass, or not sin-binning LM after French hysterics would have made more than a 1 point difference.

Of course if RM, DC and NE were not injured in the same game we probably would have won too, but you can't point a finger at dumb luck.

So yes.

[HQ matt]

it was a forward pass.

but you see alot of those outloads going unpunished, particularly in the super 15 tournament (ie SH refs).

breakdown decisions are always arbituary, im sure 28 is ott.

i didnt think NZ played as well as they could have and thats is the reason they lost on the day.

[Duty281]

I see the England Haters are out in force. I wonder if they'll be here when England make it 3 RWC finals in a row?

[G2]

Why is this now a thread about New Zealand?

[George Carlin]

I see the England Haters are out in force. I wonder if they'll be here when England make it 3 RWC finals in a row?

[mystiroakey]

greyghost you really are bitter arnt you?

[TheGreyGhost]

No, not at all. May the best team win.

I was pointing out prior to my recent ban for saying true things, that the odds of England making the final have been slashed by Ireland upsetting the cart by beating Australia.

In all reality, I believe Ireland psychologically may have made their point and either struggle to dig so deep again, or worse, start believing some of the hype.

France I'm predicting to be upset by Tonga in a the game of the tournament, and I just don't think the Welsh have self belief to progress all the way to the final.

I think for what it's worth that England will be finalists.

However not all finalists are created equally. You have to accept that their was a certain amount of luck in their 2007 progression, and again this time. Any time you avoid needing to beat the #1, #2 or #3 ranked sides in the world and still get to the final, you have to think maybe a little bit of good fortune smiled your way.

[EnglishReign]

No one expected England to make the final, but SA had an easier route there by avoiding all other tri-nations sides and the hosts.

[TheGreyGhost]

I take your point - there was a little luck for the boks too, but I'm not sure that avoiding 3N opponents made their route easier than meeting and losing to 3N opposition as England did?

The view of the rugby world at large is that England are probably the NH team you'd least like to meet in a knock out game, unless you're NZ in which case it's obviously France.

I'd back NZ to prevail against any NH opponents, other than England on a good day, with a tail wind, the bounce of the ball and few questionable sin binnings thrown in.

Can't say it any fairer than that.

[mystiroakey]

you have been banned- i am not surprised grey- i remember you from the bbc days.

but all the same i cant see england beating NZ, possibly SA mind. and i think england have unfinished business if we did meet them- however i am not confident or expecting a win- you as a kiwi actually should and should be proud of hosting a world cup and not getting all defensive about what your countries spokesmen are whinging about, it all seems like sour grapes allready- typical defeatest attitude. If yuou wanna make changes for the better(all though its very debatable how giving the top tier nations more money over the lower toer nations can help world rugby) then do it from the best in the world position- when you win the thing! Is it all just saying- the world cup isnt important incase you loose again!! not sure

[mckay1402]

I know there's already a thread with the title Scotland vs England thread (or something like that) but it appears to be nothing to do with Scotland V England so here's the team Scotland have announced.

For me I wish Robinson had picked this backline against Argentina...except Mike Blair

C Paterson (Edinburgh); M Evans (Castres), J Ansbro (London Irish), S Lamont (Scarlets), S Danielli (Ulster); R Jackson (Glasgow Warriors), M Blair (Edinburgh); A Jacobsen (Edinburgh), R Ford (Edinburgh), E Murray (Newcastle Falcons), R Gray (Glasgow Warriors), A Kellock (capt, Glasgow Warriors), A Strokosch (Gloucester), J Barclay (Glasgow Warriors), R Vernon (Sale Sharks).

Replacements: S Lawson (Gloucester), A Dickinson (Sale Sharks), N Hines (Clermont Auvergne), R Rennie (Edinburgh), C Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors), D Parks (Cardiff Blues), N De Luca (Edinburgh)

[TheGreyGhost]

Well I'm off home for the finals in about a week, just trying to get into the spirit you see mystiroakey.

I'm wondering if political pressure isn't being brought to bare to help the cause. You know how these things work. A prod here, a quiet word there, suddenly Bob's your referee.

[EnglishReign]

I take your point - there was a little luck for the boks too, but I'm not sure that avoiding 3N opponents made their route easier than meeting and losing to 3N opposition as England did?

The view of the rugby world at large is that England are probably the NH team you'd least like to meet in a knock out game, unless you're NZ in which case it's obviously France.

I'd back NZ to prevail against any NH opponents, other than England on a good day, with a tail wind, the bounce of the ball and few questionable sin binnings thrown in.

Can't say it any fairer than that.

Yeah, well they beat the Aussies but apart from that fair enough. In all seriousness it's just as well England don't meet NZ in world cups very often, as I think even on a good day they would lose.

[TheDukeofCool]

Pack looks ok, pretty mobile... Have concerns when Gray and Kellock are partnered. For some reason the lack a bit of grunt. Back row.... Barclay and Vernon are lucky to start. Backs Good, apart from Blair and Paterson.... I would've have Cusiter/Lawson and R. Lamont.

Looks like we are going to have a bit of a go though, which can only be a good thing.

[TheGreyGhost]

Are you giving Scotland any odds on what we must honestly say would be quite an upset?

My head is still spinning at what that would mean for the group. My understanding is that Scotland would have to win with a bonus point whilst denying England one?

[TheDukeofCool]

Are you giving Scotland any odds on what we must honestly say would be quite an upset?

My head is still spinning at what that would mean for the group. My understanding is that Scotland would have to win with a bonus point whilst denying England one?

From what I understand, we just have to win by 8 denying England a losing BP. (Assuming 4 tries are not scored)

[mckay1402]

yeah as long as we win and stop england scoring any pool points we go through and england go out. Possible but very unlikely

[George Carlin]

Terrible shame about Kelly being concussed, but you can't mess with an injury like that. England fans should realise that's a big break for them. Well, the Sarries fans will, at least.

My six cents worth:

1. Mossy is increasingly looking his age in this tournament and it makes my eyes bleed when I think that we are abandoning Rory in this position, but let's not be naive - every point counts and it would have been suicide to leave him out.

2. At least Schlong and Ansbro are restored to their rightful place. A pass to your colleages would be nice Sean, there's a good lad.

3. Tough on Hamilton - I don't think that he did too much wrong. I suppose if Lawes plays, then sheer weight in the boiler room matters less. I actually read that Gray weighs in heavier than Hamilton now anyway. The real truth is that the need for Kellock's leadership on the pitch has seldom been more apparent.

4. Starting Barclay is a mistake and rather puts the lie to AR's claim that he will choose on form. Barclay was BADLY out of sorts in the Pumas match and I hope that Robinson has the stones to pull him off at half time if he is as disappointing at the breakdown again. Rennie deserves his chance, even in the pressure cooker that will be this match. Then again, Barclay always seems to play well against England.

5. Last chance saloon for big Ritchie Vee. You can have all the pace in the world but if you're 10kg away from being able to put down your opposite number, you're going to struggle. Oh for Johnny Beattie - come back soon, big chap.

6. Blair had better maintain and further improve his form or I'm going to come over there and give him a wedgie myself. Robinson has clearly decided that he needs experience on the pitch.

Best of luck to the boys - be brave and kick the doors in - you have nothing whatsoever to lose.

As Johnny Beattie Snr was quoted as saying yesterday, reputations are there to be re-negotiated.

[robbo277]

If Scotland beat England and deny them a bonus point then Scotland and England will finish on 14 points a piece and Scotland will be ahead on direct results.

Then it comes down to what Argentina do against Georgia.

Less than 4 points: Scotland 1st, England 2nd.
4 points: Will go down to points difference but probably England 1st, Argentina 2nd.
5 points: Argentina 1st, Scotland 2nd.

[TheGreyGhost]

Who's the referee for the game?

[Scot Abroad]

Terrible shame about Kelly being concussed, but you can't mess with an injury like that. England fans should realise that's a big break for them. Well, the Sarries fans will, at least.

My six cents worth:

1. Mossy is increasingly looking his age in this tournament and it makes my eyes bleed when I think that we are abandoning Rory in this position, but let's not be naive - every point counts and it would have been suicide to leave him out.

3. Tough on Hamilton - I don't think that he did too much wrong. I suppose if Lawes plays, then sheer weight in the boiler room matters less. I actually read that Gray weighs in heavier than Hamilton now anyway. The real truth is that the need for Kellock's leadership on the pitch has seldom been more apparent.

Paterson has missed his fair share of kicks this tournament. It's by no means a certainty when he steps up. I would have brought Rory Lamont in and relied on Jackson. He has better range anyway. I think Hamilton is carrying an injury but either way it would have been good to have the big man in there. "Butterfingers" De Luca on the bench? That's a slap in the face to Lamont and Morrison.

[robbo277]

Joubert.

[mckay1402]

At least De Luca is capable of beating an opposing defender. Morrison is the least threatening attacker I've ever seen

[BATH_BTGOG]

Scotland team to play England in World Cup Pool B match (kick-off 0930BST):

C Paterson; M Evans, J Ansbro, S Lamont, S Danielli; R Jackson, M Blair; A Jacobsen, R Ford, E Murray, R Gray, A Kellock (capt), A Strokosch , J Barclay, R Vernon.

Replacements:S Lawson, A Dickinson, N Hines, R Rennie, C Cusiter, D Parks, N De Luca.

[TheGreyGhost]

Valliant attempt to get the thread back on topic there Bath...

[Guest]

Im merging this with the other match thread about the game as members will just end up repeating the same stuff in two threads

[Guest]

Valliant attempt to get the thread back on topic there Bath...

Not a bad idea, lets keep it on topic eh?

[TheGreyGhost]

why aye, man.

[Guest]

Threads merged, please keep this on topic guys.

[mystiroakey]

or what..

just kidding.

engalnd to win by 20

[TheGreyGhost]

Nothing kills a thread like a Mod asking it to stay on topic.

Have to agree England should walk it, but then NZ should never have lost to France twice. Rankings wise it should be a 14 point win to England.

[eirebilly]

I cant see an England loss to be honest. Scotland just dont have the attacking power to put England away. They are a decent defending team, good spoilers and will be up for it against England but in all honesty, England are a cut above Scotland. England by 12 (2 try's) with the all the action coming in the last 20 mins.

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