Scotland vs England - Match Thread - Team News - etc...

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

How the teams line up

England team: B Foden; C Ashton, M Tuilagi, M Tindall, D Armitage; J Wilkinson, B Youngs; M Stevens, S Thompson, D Cole, L Deacon, C Lawes, T Croft, L Moody (capt), J Haskell.

Replacements: D Hartley, A Corbisiero, T Palmer, N Easter, R Wigglesworth, T Flood, M Banahan.

Scotland team: C Paterson; M Evans, J Ansbro, S Lamont, S Danielli; R Jackson, M Blair; A Jacobsen, R Ford, E Murray, R Gray, A Kellock (capt), A Strokosch , J Barclay, R Vernon.

Replacements: S Lawson, A Dickinson, N Hines, R Rennie, C Cusiter, D Parks, N De Luca.



Last 10 meetings

2011 England 22 - 16 Scotland
2010 Scotland 15 - 15 England
2009 England 26 - 12 Scotland
2008 Scotland 15 - 9 England
2007 England 42 - 20 Scotland
2006 Scotland 18 - 12 England
2005 England 43 - 22 Scotland
2004 Scotland 13 - 35 England
2003 England 40 - 9 Scotland
2002 Scotland 3 - 29 England

England 7 - Scotland 2 - Draw 1

England 273 pts - Scotland 143 pts


IMO on paper the Scots might as well start packing their bags, but I have a strange feeling they might just pull it off, Chris Paterson will have plenty of shots at goal if England continue getting penalised at the breakdown and we all know what that means, he very rarely misses unless his wearing cherry and White!

Or am I being silly?


RWC so far

England

Argentina 9 - 13 England
England 41 - 10 Georgia
England 67 - 3 Romania

England PF 121 pts - PA 22pts


Scotland

Scotland 34 - 24 Romania
Scotland 15 - 6 Georgia
Argentina 13 - 12 Scotland

Scotland PF 61 - PA 43


Missed this one,

England 17 tries to Scotlands 4



Discuss

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Think Robbo has gone for the backline that should have faced Argentina, and hopefully we'll never see Morrison and Parks in navy blue again. I feel Mossy is very lucky to keep his spot, R Lamont presents a much more attacking threat with ball in hand and Jackson must be trusted to knock over his kicks.

We've gone for a pacy pack - the return for Euan Murray was always coming and I genuinely believe that he could make Matt Stevens' evening a tricky one. The lock pairing is there to challenge lineouts and offer some mobility around the turf, and in the backrow, Vernon had to play with Brown injured, and Barclay must be thanking the gods that Robbo has faith in him over Rennie.

Early scores required, else we are finished

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I cant see an England loss to be honest. Scotland just dont have the attacking power to put England away.

But you can bet they'll kick most of their goals. If England continue to concede penalties at their current rate, Scotland may not need to run in tries.

[Biltong]

without trying to be derogatory about Scotland, but they will have to drag england into a forward battle and keep the game tight, if there is a smidgeon of open space england should win this with relitavely comfort.

Scotland showed they can indeed run the ball against argentina, but looking good between the two 22's means nothing if you can't carry the ball that extra 22 meters.

[eirebilly]

I cant see an England loss to be honest. Scotland just dont have the attacking power to put England away.

But you can bet they'll kick most of their goals. If England continue to concede penalties at their current rate, Scotland may not need to run in tries.

I think that is Scotlands only chance really. As i said earlier i feel that Scotland will be well into the game come 60mins but then Englands class will show and they will run in 1-2 try's in the last 20mins.

[Great White]

without trying to be derogatory about Scotland, but they will have to drag england into a forward battle and keep the game tight, if there is a smidgeon of open space england should win this with relitavely comfort.

You sound suprised? Scotland have to drag pretty much anybody they play down to their (rather mediocre) level to get results. Thats what they do.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

without trying to be derogatory about Scotland, but they will have to drag england into a forward battle and keep the game tight, if there is a smidgeon of open space england should win this with relitavely comfort.

You sound suprised? Scotland have to drag pretty much anybody they play down to their (rather mediocre) level to get results. Thats what they do.

biltong, nae worries, appreciate you're trying not to be derogatory, but you needn't fear, there'll always be someone like Great White so fill the breach

[Great White]

Regardless of whether you think it derogatory or not. Its true.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Regardless of whether you think it derogatory or not. Its true.

No, it's your opinion

[Great White]

Which happens to be true.

[eirebilly]

I think that its very harsh to call Scotland 'rather mediocre'. They play a certain style and are very hard to beat. They are just lack a few good attacking players to put away the chance that they make.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Which happens to be true.

Arrogance, as per

[Biltong]

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.

[Great White]

Arrogance? LOL

Okay, i'll put it another way. Scotland aren't that good and pretty much havent ever been really, but its all relative. They have got their results in the past but to do so, they drag their opponents down to their level.

Whether thats a skill or not remains to be seen.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I think that its very harsh to call Scotland 'rather mediocre'. They play a certain style and are very hard to beat. They are just lack a few good attacking players to put away the chance that they make.

Which makes them rather mediocre.
Ranked 9th out of 20 cometitors in the cup, that makes them average. They base this as you say on a "basic" version of rugby and lack flair.

adjective . 1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate

By Scotland standards historicaly and even recently this is not a very good side. Its not that long ago they were ranked 6th and looked a lot better.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.

That's it, yer just a stirrer, biltong!

[eirebilly]

PSW. I actually find Scotland frustrating to watch as they do create a lot of chances but dont have the flair players to put those chances away. Because they dont put those chances away people seem to think that they are a slow grinding side which i feel is an injustice.
They are not as grinding as Italy for instnce.

[Biltong]

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.

That's it, yer just a stirrer, biltong!

sorry bud, i have packed away my teaspoon.

[Great White]

Italy have run rings round Scotland on at least one occasion, its disengenuous to italy to compare them negatively with Scotland.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I think that its very harsh to call Scotland 'rather mediocre'. They play a certain style and are very hard to beat. They are just lack a few good attacking players to put away the chance that they make.

Which makes them rather mediocre.
Ranked 9th out of 20 cometitors in the cup, that makes them average. They base this as you say on a "basic" version of rugby and lack flair.

adjective . 1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate

By Scotland standards historicaly and even recently this is not a very good side. Its not that long ago they were ranked 6th and looked a lot better.

Suspected you'd be along

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Italy have run rings round Scotland on at least one occasion, its disengenuous to italy to compare them negatively with Scotland.

[eirebilly]

I am not being disgenerous to Italy Great White, i like to watch them play but they are far more a forward orientated grinding team than Scotland.

Anyway this is going way off topic now. I still stand by my prediction of an England win by 12 points.

[Great White]

Italy have run rings round Scotland on at least one occasion, its disengenuous to italy to compare them negatively with Scotland.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Great White, it's not such a big deal in this instance, but it's dangerous to believe opinion to be fact.

[Biltong]

Great white just for you.

Opinion
"an opinion is a subjective belief, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. An opinion may be supported by an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. However, it can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analysing the supporting arguments. In casual use, the term opinion may be the result of a person's perspective, understanding, particular feelings, beliefs, and desires. It may refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to knowledge and fact-based beliefs."

Fact
"A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiabilty, that is whether it can be shown to correspond to experience"

[Great White]

Point taken, but since it isn't my opinion (that was his accusation) and that its fact, I'm not sure what there is to argue about.

[dummy_half]

Eirebilly

I get where you are coming from with regards to Scotland - they have players (Sean Lamont and Max Evans for two) who are quite capable of making a break out of very little, but neither have quite the pace to distance the cover defence (although neither are slow by any means). The problem is that when they get caught, there usually isn't a support player on their shoulder to finish the break off, and then Scotland tend to get bogged down about 15-20m from the opposition try line. Once in close, they do seem rather devoid of ideas.

One day though I think that the support running is going to click and they'll suddenly look a much more dangerous side. Just hope it doesn't happen this weekend.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

If we cannot beat Argentina then we have not the slightest chance of beating England. This with our best (only !) player - Kelly Brown - out injured. This is the weakest group out there -by a long way - and we are the worst of the top 3 in it - by a long way.

Mike Blair - utter, crud. Would rather have stuck with the distinctly average (being generous I know) Lawson than this idiot. Wait for the usual unwarranted and unwanted replacements at 60 mins from Robinson i.e. Parks, Dickenson etc. etc., - the tube ! Still glad to see Big Al back so we will get some leadership and impetus on the field but overall we have no chance.

yours in abject depression for the future of our game.

[damage_13]

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.

Yeah..! Shut it you!

Scotland have players who have shown potential over the years. Never realised in their International appearances mainly due to the squad around them and the conditions they are used to playing. Both Lamonts look attacking threats, but rarely break the gain line and even rarely look for the off load, why, because mostly, nobody else is there.

One of their best runners was their No.2 in the 6N he looked like he did better than the backs.

[Shanes Lover]

Let's look on the bright side 21st..!!

I see an upset on the cards, you may be underdogs but surely the thought of beating the old enemy and possibly knocking them out of the RWC2011 should be enough of an incentive..!!

[damage_13]

Italy have run rings round Scotland on at least one occasion, its disengenuous to italy to compare them negatively with Scotland.

x3 interception tries in 7mins

oh how I laughed.

PS: I supported Italy against everyone but England in the 6N when they first joined, why? two words... Diego Dominguez.

If ever there was a player who showed such joy in playing before, during and after matches. He was brilliant Fly Half, 74 caps 983 points. If italy had another Dominguez in their side they would thrashed Ireland and beaten France comfortably, dittoe Wales and Scotland (wooden spoon finalists) hell, they may have even beaten England

[Biltong]

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.

Yeah..! Shut it you!

Scotland have players who have shown potential over the years. Never realised in their International appearances mainly due to the squad around them and the conditions they are used to playing. Both Lamonts look attacking threats, but rarely break the gain line and even rarely look for the off load, why, because mostly, nobody else is there.

One of their best runners was their No.2 in the 6N he looked like he did better than the backs.

Mum's the word.

[BATH_BTGOG]

What odds for Banahan coming on for the last 20mins and scoring a hatrick?

Or Paterson to kick all of Scotlands points and winning by 8pts?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I think that its very harsh to call Scotland 'rather mediocre'. They play a certain style and are very hard to beat. They are just lack a few good attacking players to put away the chance that they make.

Which makes them rather mediocre.
Ranked 9th out of 20 cometitors in the cup, that makes them average. They base this as you say on a "basic" version of rugby and lack flair.

adjective . 1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate

By Scotland standards historicaly and even recently this is not a very good side. Its not that long ago they were ranked 6th and looked a lot better.

Suspected you'd be along

Whats that suppossed to mean? Suspected Id be along to add some reasoned balance to a "my dads bigger than your dad" debate?

I think I was quite comeplimentary to Scotland in saying that they are usually better than the current side. By Scotland satndards this side is medocre, or do you beleive that being only moderatly better than Italy Samoa and Canada is acceptable for them now? You Scotts are so dour and negative sometimes, you'll get a reuptation
Scotland have been capable of fielding better sides than this and Im sure are capable of doing it again in the future, but the last year or so has been pretty...mediocre. Just wait till the 6 nations before turning it around pelase.

[dummy_half]

As a serious question, if you do a player by player comparison between the England and Scotland XVs for this game, how many Scots would you put clearly better than their opposite number?

Foden v Paterson - Foden by a good distance
Ashton v Evans - Ashton by a little
Manu T v Ansbro - Quite equal (boith very promising younger players)
Tindall v Lamont - Probably give Sean L the advantage here (although neither can pass worth a damn)
Armitage v Danielli - Delon every day and twice on Sundays on his current form
Wilkinson v Jackson - Johnny W, just for big game experience. At least you've dropped desperate Dan.
Youngs v Blair - Current form definitely Youngs.

Stevens v Jacobson - Possibly just give Chunk the edge here (and as an aside, have there ever been two more cube-shaped players face each other?)
Thompson v Ford - Even
Cole v Murray - Recent form would suggest Cole, but is Murray is back to his best he's perhaps slightly better
Deacon v Kellock - Even
Lawes v Gray - Even (and I want to see these two on form together as the next Lions second row pairing)
Croft v Strokosch - Even (very different types of player)
Moody v Barclay - Even (as above, Barclay more a traditional 7, but Mad Dog is under-rated as a fetcher and is a better link player)
Haskell v Vernon - Haskell ('Best no 8 in the world'), mainly because I don't rate Vernon, who lacks power at this level.

So as an England fan, there aren't many of the Scots I'd want to steal for our side (Lamont, although prefer him on the wing, Jacobson for our 2nd choice loose head, and I'd partner Gray and Lawes in the 2nd row). Otherwise I have a few as evenly matched (packs as a whole are close) and England clearly better at halfback and back 3.

[rodders]

I think on paper there is not a lot between the sides. The big thing that jumps out at me is the half backs were I think England have a big advantage. I think Youngs and Wilkinson are much better players than Blair and Jackson and I think this is Scotlands big achilles heel.

Paterson has become a bit of a weak link for Scotland as well. He's been poor under the high ball and doesn't hit the line in attack often enough. Although Foden isn't the most complete full back around and isn't in great form he offers much more running threat.

Lamont and Ansbro are exciting runners but I think Tindal and Tuilagi is a more balanced combination in attack and defence.

The one area were I think Scotland do have an edge is the back row unit. They dominated the breakdown in the 6N and can do so again here. Moody is Englands weak link I think and none of the England backrow are great at the breakdown.

Overall England are the better side for me but Scotland are definitely not without a chance if they play out of their skins.

[rugbyfan]

As a serious question, if you do a player by player comparison between the England and Scotland XVs for this game, how many Scots would you put clearly better than their opposite number?

Foden v Paterson - Foden by a good distance
Ashton v Evans - Ashton by a little
Manu T v Ansbro - Quite equal (boith very promising younger players)Tindall v Lamont - Probably give Sean L the advantage here (although neither can pass worth a damn)
Armitage v Danielli - Delon every day and twice on Sundays on his current form
Wilkinson v Jackson - Johnny W, just for big game experience. At least you've dropped desperate Dan.
Youngs v Blair - Current form definitely Youngs.

Stevens v Jacobson - Possibly just give Chunk the edge here (and as an aside, have there ever been two more cube-shaped players face each other?)
Thompson v Ford - Even
Cole v Murray - Recent form would suggest Cole, but is Murray is back to his best he's perhaps slightly better
Deacon v Kellock - Even
Lawes v Gray - Even (and I want to see these two on form together as the next Lions second row pairing)
Croft v Strokosch - Even (very different types of player)
Moody v Barclay - Even (as above, Barclay more a traditional 7, but Mad Dog is under-rated as a fetcher and is a better link player)
Haskell v Vernon - Haskell ('Best no 8 in the world'), mainly because I don't rate Vernon, who lacks power at this level.

So as an England fan, there aren't many of the Scots I'd want to steal for our side (Lamont, although prefer him on the wing, Jacobson for our 2nd choice loose head, and I'd partner Gray and Lawes in the 2nd row). Otherwise I have a few as evenly matched (packs as a whole are close) and England clearly better at halfback and back 3.

Tuilagi and Ansbro equal? I've only seen Ansbro 2-3 times, and while he's a promising player, I think Tuilagi is miles ahead in terms of both his performance now and his potential for the future.

[dummy_half]

rugbyfan

I've been impressed with what I've seen of Ansbro. He's obviously a much less powerful centre than Manu T, but then so is O'Driscoll and it hasn't harmed his ability to perform to the highest level - there is still a place for quick and elusive runners as well as for big bashers.

[Rangiora]

It was painful watching us throw the game away in wet Welly, I fear the pain will be back when we get a walloping on this Saturday.................

[eirebilly]

I honestly believe it dummy_half. Scotland are done a terrible injustice by being called boring and mediocre. If the had a few back up runners for the chances they creat, they would be a decent side.

I swear that some people on here just want to rubbish certain countries (for some reason) instead of actually looking at the rugby certain countries play and make unbiased comments.

[EnglishReign]

I remember all Scotland fans predicting a demolition job by England, before the Twickenham 6N game. It just doesn't happen lads.

[rugbyfan]

rugbyfan

I've been impressed with what I've seen of Ansbro. He's obviously a much less powerful centre than Manu T, but then so is O'Driscoll and it hasn't harmed his ability to perform to the highest level - there is still a place for quick and elusive runners as well as for big bashers.

I'm certainly not saying that Ansbro is too small or that tuilagi is better because he's bigger! I think Tuilagi is far more than a crash ball centre - he's got good pace and side step and can link well with others as was shown in Youngs' try against Romania.

[EnglishReign]

To be fair, I do rate Ansbro but Manu has burst onto the international scene and made a real impression. I'd say he was the in-form player at the moment.

[rodders]

Tuilagi reminds me of a young Inga Tuigimala. I think he's the most exciting young back in the NH right now. He's still raw and that can be exploited by more experienced players but he has huge potential and has made a massive difference to the England backline.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

What's the forecast for Auckland on Saturday? Am I right in thinking that all England's pool games thus far have been played under a roof?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Yes

[EnglishReign]

What's the forecast for Auckland on Saturday? Am I right in thinking that all England's pool games thus far have been played under a roof?

Yep, all games played in a greenhouse so far. Forecast is heavy rain I believe, I might check that now though...

Edit - This suggests rain on Saturday http://www.nzherald.co.nz/auckland/weather/index.cfm?c_id=10&mapid=3&placeid=12

Edit 2 - Alright, found a better website - http://metservice.com/towns-cities/rugby-world-cup-2011 . Tells you the forecast for all the weekend's games. Looks like there's only a possibility of showers for the Scotland game.

[propdavid_london]

When Scotland plays England they always seem to lift their game. With the added incentive of putting us out of the WC they will definately be fired up. I just hope that England arent going to go through the motions as they have appeared to in the earlier pool games.

If England dont come out the blocks firing then we are going to be infor a slugging match in a low scoring game.

[damage_13]

I thought Manu was MotM vs Romana, he was everywhere.

[rodders]

If England dont come out the blocks firing then we are going to be infor a slugging match in a low scoring game.

That will suit England down to the ground. It's Scotland who need to play the rugby and get the bonus point. England can just let Wilkinson keep the scoreboard ticking over whereas Scotland are going to have to take a few more risks. England hold all the cards here.

[Mr Bounce]

Two things I just have a feeling will happen in this match: Injury to a key player or two and at least one interception try.

I'm afraid this will all be at Scotland's expense... England by 15.

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