Scotland vs England - Match Thread - Team News - etc...

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

How the teams line up

England team: B Foden; C Ashton, M Tuilagi, M Tindall, D Armitage; J Wilkinson, B Youngs; M Stevens, S Thompson, D Cole, L Deacon, C Lawes, T Croft, L Moody (capt), J Haskell.

Replacements: D Hartley, A Corbisiero, T Palmer, N Easter, R Wigglesworth, T Flood, M Banahan.

Scotland team: C Paterson; M Evans, J Ansbro, S Lamont, S Danielli; R Jackson, M Blair; A Jacobsen, R Ford, E Murray, R Gray, A Kellock (capt), A Strokosch , J Barclay, R Vernon.

Replacements: S Lawson, A Dickinson, N Hines, R Rennie, C Cusiter, D Parks, N De Luca.



Last 10 meetings

2011 England 22 - 16 Scotland
2010 Scotland 15 - 15 England
2009 England 26 - 12 Scotland
2008 Scotland 15 - 9 England
2007 England 42 - 20 Scotland
2006 Scotland 18 - 12 England
2005 England 43 - 22 Scotland
2004 Scotland 13 - 35 England
2003 England 40 - 9 Scotland
2002 Scotland 3 - 29 England

England 7 - Scotland 2 - Draw 1

England 273 pts - Scotland 143 pts


IMO on paper the Scots might as well start packing their bags, but I have a strange feeling they might just pull it off, Chris Paterson will have plenty of shots at goal if England continue getting penalised at the breakdown and we all know what that means, he very rarely misses unless his wearing cherry and White!

Or am I being silly?


RWC so far

England

Argentina 9 - 13 England
England 41 - 10 Georgia
England 67 - 3 Romania

England PF 121 pts - PA 22pts


Scotland

Scotland 34 - 24 Romania
Scotland 15 - 6 Georgia
Argentina 13 - 12 Scotland

Scotland PF 61 - PA 43


Missed this one,

England 17 tries to Scotlands 4



Discuss

[TheGreyGhost]

What's the forecast for Auckland on Saturday? Am I right in thinking that all England's pool games thus far have been played under a roof?

Yep, all games played in a greenhouse so far. Forecast is heavy rain I believe, I might check that now though...

Edit - This suggests rain on Saturday http://www.nzherald.co.nz/auckland/weather/index.cfm?c_id=10&mapid=3&placeid=12

Edit 2 - Alright, found a better website - http://metservice.com/towns-cities/rugby-world-cup-2011 . Tells you the forecast for all the weekend's games. Looks like there's only a possibility of showers for the Scotland game.

Conditions in Auckland tend to be deceptively good even with a forecast like this. The NE wind keeps the air dry even with a comparatively late kick off (also the clocks just went forward) and the drainage is good since the soil is volcanic. Unless it's actually raining, which tends to be heavy and brief then the handling conditions and footing are good.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Grey Ghost, I was thinking less about rain and more about wind and the different atmospheric conditions you get playing outdoors. The English players will be used to that, of course, but it'll be a new experience for them at this World Cup. A few garryowens early doors might be in order, especially as Ben Foden's not the tallest.

[Great White]

Grey Ghost, I was thinking less about rain and more about wind and the different atmospheric conditions you get playing outdoors. The English players will be used to that, of course, but it'll be a new experience for them at this World Cup. A few garryowens early doors might be in order, especially as Ben Foden's not the tallest.

Straws. Clutching. At.

[TheGreyGhost]

I remember reading players complaining that the lighting rigs in Auckland were causing problems with up and unders. I wonder if this has been fixed.

If Scotland are going to kick it away, then their chase will have to be a lot better than it has been so far.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Thankfully, Lucky, we'll never have to find out

[tomhughesnice]

I look at the England team and expect to see a confident victory. But every time I have thought that in the past England have had a very poor game. England usually perform well when you least expect it I have found.

So England by 4 I think will be the final result and a pounding from the press. Probably a similar game to Eng vs Arg. So lots of penalties and shoddy play, but we'l be on the right side of the result.

[fa0019]

The problem for us is that we have to chase the game.

We're not going to stop ENG from scoring points, they will be dominant up front and have runners all over the park to choose from. JW will keep that scoreboard ticking over

This means we can't just hope to be in the game at 60 min and then go for it... we have to go out from the off with an attacking mindset.

This in itself is very dangerous and I fear it could cause us to lose badly.

If it was simply a win which was all that is required it would be different.

Also kicking to Foden has its downside... not the tallest, well he isn't short and he is so strong in attack that any mis-judgement will come back on us with interest.

Not confident myself, hopeful but given our recent performances we would need to play better than we have done so in a very long time to secure victory & qualification.

[Ozzy3213]

Scotland have selected a side clearly set out to try to play a more expansive attacking game than they have done in their previous two matches. I think in all honesty that is a mistake from Robinson, and they would have been better served playing a tight game with real structure and solid defence.

England will fancy themselves to outscore the Scots in an open game, but could struggle if the match becomes an arm wrestle, as their discipline a the breakdown has shown no signs of improving.

I think Robinson has played into Johnnos hands a bit, and I think England will win this with a little bit to spare in the final quarter.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Is it a given that England will be dominant up front?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I think on paper there is not a lot between the sides.

Aside from 5 IRB ranking places, 7.23 IRB ranking points ( almost the same gap as there is between Scotland and the US), 4 pool points, 60 points scored and 21 conceeded in the WC so far, a win loss record in the last year of 11:4 vs 7:6

Yeah if you write ScotlandEngland on a bit of paper theres not much between them. In the metaphorical sense the gaps pretty big.

[TrailApe]

I don't know about others, but I respect the Scots.
Unless we build up an early lead quickly it's going to be a long 80 minutes.

Who is the ref?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Is it a given that England will be dominant up front?

Quite teh opposite, the one area Scotland have parity or perhaps even the advantage is the forwards.

[Ozzy3213]

No, it's not luckless. The front row battle will be tight, with two fairly even units. It will be a battle up front, and Scotland would have been better served keeping it that way throught in my opinion.

I think if they try to open up the game they are likely to come unstuck.

[Great White]

Scotland have selected a side clearly set out to try to play a more expansive attacking game than they have done in their previous two matches. I think in all honesty that is a mistake from Robinson, and they would have been better served playing a tight game with real structure and solid defence.

England will fancy themselves to outscore the Scots in an open game, but could struggle if the match becomes an arm wrestle, as their discipline a the breakdown has shown no signs of improving.

I think Robinson has played into Johnnos hands a bit, and I think England will win this with a little bit to spare in the final quarter.

That what i said, only you said it better. Scotland's only hope is to drag England down to their level.

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

If England get an early score and settle then I can only really see one outcome. Should Scotland edge ahead by the odd penalty and the clock begins to run down, then a Scotland victory would be very much on the cards.

I love watching rugby but sometines I feel it can't be doing me any good. Roll on Saturday, I'm excited and dreading it in equal measure. Good luck to both sides and may the best team win......................i.e. England.

[TheGreyGhost]

Yeah, have to agree. England are poor, ill-disciplined and erratic under pressure at the moment.

Early on you have to kick deep for territory, pressure their lineout and keep them pinned back as much as possible. Wilkinson has always had a poor tactical kicking game, so winning a game of force back early on should be straight forward.

Eventually the petulant back three will get frustrated and try some ill-advised running from deep.

We know that under the cosh, England resort to yielding penalties as a first resort. The referees are getting savvy to this as has been witnessed by regular yellow cards for England at the 30-35 minute mark.

If Scotland can get into the referees ear early on, they could have an Englishman ejected even earlier than this.

Then Scotland need to look at what has made other teams successful - and that is battering numbers into the breakdown, being patient with possession and waiting for the penalties to come.

It should be easy to target Tuilagi in the mid-field. He's a young fella and as we've seen prone to recklessness. A bit of verbals to him to wind him up, get him to do something silly like throw a punch or start racing out of the line in defense to make the heroic hit.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I think on paper there is not a lot between the sides.

Aside from 5 IRB ranking places, 7.23 IRB ranking points ( almost the same gap as there is between Scotland and the US), 4 pool points, 60 points scored and 21 conceeded in the WC so far, a win loss record in the last year of 11:4 vs 7:6

Yeah if you write ScotlandEngland on a bit of paper theres not much between them. In the metaphorical sense the gaps pretty big.

It's a big gap alright, no question of that - however, imo, it should be a lot bigger than it is. One nation doesn't make the most of its resources, I'll leave you to judge which one

[HERSH]

I'm still worried; this isn't going to be pretty.

If the unthinkable did happen the Scots would never let us English folk forget it nor would anyone else.

The penalty count could really hurt us, who is the Ref by the way?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Scotland have selected a side clearly set out to try to play a more expansive attacking game than they have done in their previous two matches. I think in all honesty that is a mistake from Robinson, and they would have been better served playing a tight game with real structure and solid defence.

England will fancy themselves to outscore the Scots in an open game, but could struggle if the match becomes an arm wrestle, as their discipline a the breakdown has shown no signs of improving.

I think Robinson has played into Johnnos hands a bit, and I think England will win this with a little bit to spare in the final quarter.

That what i said, only you said it better. Scotland's only hope is to drag England down to their level.

Great White, imo it's the lack of antagonism in Pete's post that makes the difference - not a bad model to follow?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I don't know about others, but I respect the Scots.
Unless we build up an early lead quickly it's going to be a long 80 minutes.

Who is the ref?

I think thats the general feeling. The ref is Joubert I think, in theory he should suit England wanting to keep the game moving if they can stay disciplined and accurate rather than treating the ball like a pie infront of Andy Goode.
If England do get teh early try it will force Scotland to come out and play riskier rugby whioch could lead to them getting hammered. Keep it close and they could draw England into the sort of game they have struggled iwth recently.

Whilst I dont think much of Scotland as a side at the minute they have shown time and again that they can buck the odds when it comes to big games so I wouldnt write them off. Id be amazed if they deny a bonus point though, and the finger pointing meeting England hold after should involved a lot of rude words.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I'm still worried; this isn't going to be pretty.

If the unthinkable did happen the Scots would never let us English folk forget it nor would anyone else.

The penalty count could really hurt us, who is the Ref by the way?

It's Joubert, I believe

[Boyne]

If the unthinkable did happen the Scots would never let us English folk forget it nor would anyone else.

Its called karma. Or, what goes around ect ect.

But you'll be grand. Pedigree and all that.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

If the unthinkable did happen the Scots would never let us English folk forget it nor would anyone else.

Its called karma. Or, what goes around ect ect.

But you'll be grand. Pedigree and all that.

Pity we havent beaten then 7 times out the last 8 or whetever it is eh

[yappysnap]

Agreed, and although on paper there's a big gap between the teams I think the Scots will be our biggest test so far.

Am I right in thinking their pack is a lot older and more experienced then ours too? As this never seems to help us, looking at the SA, Ire, Argie matches they all got one over us in the pack.

And who's the ref? Please not Poite.

[robbo277]

Craig Joubert is the referee.

[Great White]

If the unthinkable did happen the Scots would never let us English folk forget it nor would anyone else.

Its called karma. Or, what goes around ect ect.

But you'll be grand. Pedigree and all that.

Pity we havent beaten then 7 times out the last 8 or whetever it is eh

And its not like it wouln't be funny if Italy do a number on Ireland either will it

[Redrage]

I cannot fathom how Barclay has kept his place over Rennie. Blair is lucky too, he was complicit in the drop goal debacle in ways that a player of his experience just should not have been. Cusiter must be really struggling for match fitness. What really gets to me is this didn't have to be a must win match, the last game was the real must win match, but has taken until now to dispense with Morrison at 12. Our back line for this match is more or less the one that should have been started against Argentina.

[TipToes88]

I've got my tartan glasses on for this one. I can see this game either being a blinder or a total boring let down for both sides.
I'm saying Scotland to win by the narrowest of margins so long as Dan Parks doesn't mess things up (thats right, I still don't like him). If we win it will doubtless be down to Patterson's boot

[TheGreyGhost]

One nation doesn't make the most of its resources, I'll leave you to judge which one

I think you meant to say: "one nation doesn't make most of it's resources, ..."

[Tattie Scones RRN]

Now the team has been announced, I'm fearful that Vernon is back on thepitch. Too lightweight and takes some power out of the scrum. Shame about Kelly Brown.

Blair shouldn't be in there and Rennie should have replaced Barclay.

Backs are ok but in all honesty (and despite the confidence and hope growing already) I can see nothing but an England win - and quite handsomely at that.

Will things change at the SRU as a result of not making the 1/4's?

No chance - same eejits in charge regardless.

Sad times for the sport we love.

[TheGreyGhost]

The upset will be Tonga beating France.

Scotland just haven't had the accuracy so far in the tournament. They'd need a leap in performance of such a degree that I'd be forced to be proud of them forever if they knock over the Poms.

[HERSH]

Joubert's OK,

I was worried it would be that little shhh Bryce Lawrence, you know the one, he hates England and his really unfit and can't keep up with the pace of the game, Oh and makes rules up as he goes along and can't control the scrum.

[Guest]

Guys, ive removed a post and edited one.
Cut out the insults towards other members.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

One nation doesn't make the most of its resources, I'll leave you to judge which one

I think you meant to say: "one nation doesn't make most of it's resources, ..."

I do, GG? Your grammar is better than mine

[Great White]

I don't know why people get so hung up about referees. They all make mistakes and its down to the individual teams to play that ref on the day.

[TheGreyGhost]

You are wrong GW. Let's not get into this debate here.

Without naming names (everyone knows who they are). Certain referees consistently make game changing mistakes, and until they are held accountable for them, it will continue to happen.

Stop making excuses for incompetence.

[Great White]

You'd think that if certain referees really did make the same mistakes over and over, certain teams would have the collective intelligence to work that out and work round it wouldn't you?

[TheGreyGhost]

Not on this thread GW. If you want to try to drag the Eng v Scot thread off into a debate about how the rugby playing world should compensate for the inadequacy of certain referees by ignoring their mistakes, then start a new thread.

[Great White]

Not on this thread GW. If you want to try to drag the Eng v Scot thread off into a debate about how the rugby playing world should compensate for the inadequacy of certain referees by ignoring their mistakes, then start a new thread.

sorry, I thought thats exactly what you had attempted to do? And, I thought you weren't getting into that debate anyway?

do try to stay on topic.

[TheGreyGhost]

GW, me old mate. I have no intention of getting banned again, no matter how much you try to provoke. We're under strict instruction not to bicker.

Let's just say I disagree with your proposal that referees should be allowed to be as inconsistent as they like, and the players should have to adapt to this.

I prefer a world where the referees were held accountable to the highest standards of professionalism along with the players.

That's all I have to say.

Now Scotland v England....

[screamingaddabs]

Not on this thread GW. If you want to try to drag the Eng v Scot thread off into a debate about how the rugby playing world should compensate for the inadequacy of certain referees by ignoring their mistakes, then start a new thread.

Well done GG, quite right, this is not the thread for that.

It is the thread for saying: If all us England fans are unreasonably nervous - do we think the players feel that extra bit of nervousness too?

[Geordie]

"Wilkinson has always had a poor tactical kicking game"

Really? Funny how Johnny has always been described as a kicker...but who will not run a backline? Now he cant even kick well.... i dunno....

"Eventually the petulant back three will get frustrated and try some ill-advised running from deep."

Petulant back 3? Please provide examples....oh wait a minute....the swan dive eh?

"It should be easy to target Tuilagi in the mid-field. He's a young fella and as we've seen prone to recklessness. A bit of verbals to him to wind him up, get him to do something silly like throw a punch or start racing out of the line in defense to make the heroic hit."

I think thats been tried already now. And please feel free to focus on one player....that will allow room for the others to enjoy....

[TheGreyGhost]

Wilkinson was described as a place kicker, but his tactical kicking has always been weak. He has a short punt, and tends not to be particularly accurate.

My "petulant back 3" is just based on observation. They get frustrated under pressure and tend make naive mistakes to try to "break the game open". Foden is particularly bad for this - throwing speculative passes under his own sticks, trying the 10% grubber from defence or trying to run it out himself and getting isolated. Check the SA, Ireland, NZ and France games for evidence. Ashton is great if you want a show pony to finish off a 50 point rout, but when the ball doesn't come his way, or the forwards aren't laying a platform he becomes anonymous. He likes to be seen as the hero and isn't a grafter. He also has a high penalty rate.

Dropping Cueto for Armitage is just foolish. There's another 3 or 4 penalties for Scotland, right there.

[rugbyfan]

"Wilkinson has always had a poor tactical kicking game"

Really? Funny how Johnny has always been described as a kicker...but who will not run a backline? Now he cant even kick well.... i dunno....

"Eventually the petulant back three will get frustrated and try some ill-advised running from deep."

Petulant back 3? Please provide examples....oh wait a minute....the swan dive eh?

"It should be easy to target Tuilagi in the mid-field. He's a young fella and as we've seen prone to recklessness. A bit of verbals to him to wind him up, get him to do something silly like throw a punch or start racing out of the line in defense to make the heroic hit."

I think thats been tried already now. And please feel free to focus on one player....that will allow room for the others to enjoy....

I agree geordie - if those are England's biggest weaknesses then i'm pretty happy! Clutching at straws i think....

[BATH_BTGOG]

GreyGhost - Dropping Cueto for Armitage is just foolish. There's another 3 or 4 penalties for Scotland, right there.

Isn't Cueto injured?

Does Armitage give away penalties?

Has GreyGhost ever watched England?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Wheeler,

are you Serbo-Croat ? Either that or you type with boxing gloves on. Bloody hard work to translate anyway !

[Biltong]

I think Armitage is a better bet than Cueto.

[rugbyfan]

Armitage or Cueto was a close call, maybe there was a small injury involved but Armitage has looked good since he returned from his ban.

GG is simply winding people up here or does not really watch England reguarly. The only thing to stop England beating Scotland is if England give away stupid penatlies early on. I'm sure MJ has told the team to let the scots have the ball, rather than concede penalties, it's not as if they have looked capable of scoring tries. There's no need to give away penalties against a team that shows little attacking threat.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Wheeler,

are you Serbo-Croat ? Either that or you type with boxing gloves on. Bloody hard work to translate anyway !

Why bother to read it if you have nothing of value to bring to life?

[rugbyfan]

I think Armitage is a better bet than Cueto.

cueto probably works harder in general play, but armitage is more likely to make a break - I'd be happy with either

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