Scotland vs England - Match Thread - Team News - etc...

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

How the teams line up

England team: B Foden; C Ashton, M Tuilagi, M Tindall, D Armitage; J Wilkinson, B Youngs; M Stevens, S Thompson, D Cole, L Deacon, C Lawes, T Croft, L Moody (capt), J Haskell.

Replacements: D Hartley, A Corbisiero, T Palmer, N Easter, R Wigglesworth, T Flood, M Banahan.

Scotland team: C Paterson; M Evans, J Ansbro, S Lamont, S Danielli; R Jackson, M Blair; A Jacobsen, R Ford, E Murray, R Gray, A Kellock (capt), A Strokosch , J Barclay, R Vernon.

Replacements: S Lawson, A Dickinson, N Hines, R Rennie, C Cusiter, D Parks, N De Luca.



Last 10 meetings

2011 England 22 - 16 Scotland
2010 Scotland 15 - 15 England
2009 England 26 - 12 Scotland
2008 Scotland 15 - 9 England
2007 England 42 - 20 Scotland
2006 Scotland 18 - 12 England
2005 England 43 - 22 Scotland
2004 Scotland 13 - 35 England
2003 England 40 - 9 Scotland
2002 Scotland 3 - 29 England

England 7 - Scotland 2 - Draw 1

England 273 pts - Scotland 143 pts


IMO on paper the Scots might as well start packing their bags, but I have a strange feeling they might just pull it off, Chris Paterson will have plenty of shots at goal if England continue getting penalised at the breakdown and we all know what that means, he very rarely misses unless his wearing cherry and White!

Or am I being silly?


RWC so far

England

Argentina 9 - 13 England
England 41 - 10 Georgia
England 67 - 3 Romania

England PF 121 pts - PA 22pts


Scotland

Scotland 34 - 24 Romania
Scotland 15 - 6 Georgia
Argentina 13 - 12 Scotland

Scotland PF 61 - PA 43


Missed this one,

England 17 tries to Scotlands 4



Discuss

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Wilkinson was described as a place kicker, but his tactical kicking has always been weak. He has a short punt, and tends not to be particularly accurate.

My "petulant back 3" is just based on observation. They get frustrated under pressure and tend make naive mistakes to try to "break the game open". Foden is particularly bad for this - throwing speculative passes under his own sticks, trying the 10% grubber from defence or trying to run it out himself and getting isolated. Check the SA, Ireland, NZ and France games for evidence. Ashton is great if you want a show pony to finish off a 50 point rout, but when the ball doesn't come his way, or the forwards aren't laying a platform he becomes anonymous. He likes to be seen as the hero and isn't a grafter. He also has a high penalty rate.

Dropping Cueto for Armitage is just foolish. There's another 3 or 4 penalties for Scotland, right there.

Theres plenty of reasons to describe Armitage as "petulant"
Ive always seen Foden as a bit of an egotist, which isnt too bad at this level sometimes. I dont buy Ashton as "petulant" for swan diving, silly maybe.
And yes you may have a point about them trying a bit too hard to run everything back, its almost as if they have gone too far the other way. But you as a neutral should be glad they are at least trying to play some open rugby again, and if the chuck a few interceptions or get turned over in their 22 then youll have your Scotland try and a real game.
I suspect some of it is them looking to overcome sides that are trying to negate their running game through kicking and tight forward play. Against SANZARS youd probably see a more pragmatic gameplan with a bit more tactical kicking from the back 3.

[George Carlin]

Things England Should Be Pleased About
1. Barclay is started instead of Rennie.
2. Vernon is starting as Kelly Brown is still concussed.
3. Scotland need to block the 15 shirt for Mossy the Metronome rather than having a genuine strike runner like Rory Lamont or Jim Thompson in his place.

Things England Should Be Very Slightly Jittery About
1. Armitage is definitely a riskier option and is more likely to be caught out of defensive sequence than Cueto.
2. Their tight five is going to get a serious work-out.
3. Conceding penalties as a means of getting the ball back is probably a bad idea here.
4. Their back three really runs on form - when they're part of a team on the front foot, they can be sublime, if they can't get ball, they have already vanished for one RWC pool match already.
5. Believing the (worldwide, rather than just local) press that this match is a foregone conclusion, despite the warm words offered about their opponents at press conferences.
6. The fact that they have no very recent experience of an arm wrestle in the peeing rain of Noo Zulund.

[rugbyfan]

Things England Should Be Pleased About
1. Barclay is started instead of Rennie.
2. Vernon is starting as Kelly Brown is still concussed.
3. Scotland need to block the 15 shirt for Mossy the Metronome rather than having a genuine strike runner like Rory Lamont or Jim Thompson in his place.

Things England Should Be Very Slightly Jittery About
1. Armitage is definitely a riskier option and is more likely to be caught out of defensive sequence than Cueto.
2. Their tight five is going to get a serious work-out.
3. Conceding penalties as a means of getting the ball back is probably a bad idea here.
4. Their back three really runs on form - when they're part of a team on the front foot, they can be sublime, if they can't get ball, they have already vanished for one RWC pool match already.
5. Believing the (worldwide, rather than just local) press that this match is a foregone conclusion, despite the warm words offered about their opponents at press conferences.
6. The fact that they have no very recent experience of an arm wrestle in the peeing rain of Noo Zulund.

6 reasons to be worried and only 3 to be positive? are you saying you think scotland will win?

[rodders]

Wilkinson was described as a place kicker, but his tactical kicking has always been weak. He has a short punt, and tends not to be particularly accurate.

My "petulant back 3" is just based on observation. They get frustrated under pressure and tend make naive mistakes to try to "break the game open". Foden is particularly bad for this - throwing speculative passes under his own sticks, trying the 10% grubber from defence or trying to run it out himself and getting isolated. Check the SA, Ireland, NZ and France games for evidence. Ashton is great if you want a show pony to finish off a 50 point rout, but when the ball doesn't come his way, or the forwards aren't laying a platform he becomes anonymous. He likes to be seen as the hero and isn't a grafter. He also has a high penalty rate.

Dropping Cueto for Armitage is just foolish. There's another 3 or 4 penalties for Scotland, right there.

I agree with a lot of that GG.

However I can't see Scotland getting bonus points win against England. Even if they get their tactics and execution spot on and England have a bad day at the office I can't see them getting any more than a narrow win.

There are guys in the England side that Scotland can rattle, namely Youngs and Ashton and Foden does get himslf isolated a lot but Wilkinson and Thompson starting makes England look more solid and less likely to be put off their game plan than if Hartley and Flood were playing.

I think Murray may give Stevens a real torrid time though in the scrum.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I can't see Scotland getting bonus points win against England.

They don't need a bonus-point win though, do they - just to deny England a losing bonus point.

[rodders]

Not if Argentina get a bonus point win against Georgia. The only way they go though for sure is a bonus point win and deny England the bonus point.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I agree the latter scenario is much more unlikely.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Things England Should Be Pleased About
1. Barclay is started instead of Rennie.
2. Vernon is starting as Kelly Brown is still concussed.
3. Scotland need to block the 15 shirt for Mossy the Metronome rather than having a genuine strike runner like Rory Lamont or Jim Thompson in his place.

Things England Should Be Very Slightly Jittery About
1. Armitage is definitely a riskier option and is more likely to be caught out of defensive sequence than Cueto.
2. Their tight five is going to get a serious work-out.
3. Conceding penalties as a means of getting the ball back is probably a bad idea here.
4. Their back three really runs on form - when they're part of a team on the front foot, they can be sublime, if they can't get ball, they have already vanished for one RWC pool match already.
5. Believing the (worldwide, rather than just local) press that this match is a foregone conclusion, despite the warm words offered about their opponents at press conferences.
6. The fact that they have no very recent experience of an arm wrestle in the peeing rain of Noo Zulund.

6 reasons to be worried and only 3 to be positive? are you saying you think scotland will win?

No because he missed the starting point : England are a noticeably better side.

We then scale back the expectation of a comfortable win with 6 negatives vs 3 psoitives to a should win, arent likely to lose by a big margin but you really never know with these Scotland England games.

[Guest]

Even as a Welsh man i wouldn't bet against England on this one,
Scotland are shockingly poor and i see England battering them.

Also why have England had three games at the same stadium?
Whilst every one else has had to travel all over the country for each game?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

If all us England fans are unreasonably nervous - do we think the players feel that extra bit of nervousness too?

They'll tell the press that they don't; they'll tell themselves that they don't; but the fact that this is a Six Nations fixture - the Calcutta Cup, no less - will inevitably add to things.

[damage_13]

England will win, and win well.

[BATH_BTGOG]

"I think Murray may give Stevens a real torrid time though in the scrum."


What, how!

Divine intervention?

[robbo277]

Scotland need to take at least 4 more points out of the game than England to have any (realistic) chance of qualification.

If Scotland win 4-0 (on match points) then both teams will be on 14 points. An Argentina TBP win would then see Argentina on 15 and Scotland take 2nd place on direct results. An Argentina win (no TBP) would take it to points difference, where Scotland would likely miss out. Argentina taking less than 4 points would see Scotland top the pool.

If Scotland win 5-1 (on match points) then both teams will be on 15 points. An Argentina TBP win would then see all three teams on 15 and Scotland likely to miss out on points difference. Argentina taking 4 points or less would see them knocked out, with Scotland topping the pool on direct results.

If Scotland win 5-0 (on match points) then Scotland will be on 15 and guaranteed to go through. A TBP win for Argentina would see Argentina top the pool on direct results (and England going out). Anything less would see Argentina on a maximum of 14 points - in which case they'd lose out to England on direct results (Scotland topping the pool).

If Scotland lose to/draw with England, they have to hope they get strictly more match points than Argentina, or it's curtains. In any scenario where Scotland fail to win, England top the pool.

[rugbyfan]

England will win, and win well.

Great, that's what I've been waiting for - someone to clarify that. No more worrying for me now....

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Even as a Welsh man i wouldn't bet against England on this one,
Scotland are shockingly poor and i see England battering them.

Also why have England had three games at the same stadium?
Whilst every one else has had to travel all over the country for each game?

Just to prove a point about playing under closed roofs?

[BATH_BTGOG]

England will win, and win well.

Great, that's what I've been waiting for - someone to clarify that. No more worrying for me now....

+1 No need to watch it now.

[rodders]

Scotland need to take at least 4 more points out of the game than England to have any (realistic) chance of qualification.

If Scotland win 4-0 (on match points) then both teams will be on 14 points. An Argentina TBP win would then see Argentina on 15 and Scotland take 2nd place on direct results. An Argentina win (no TBP) would take it to points difference, where Scotland would likely miss out. Argentina taking less than 4 points would see Scotland top the pool.

If Scotland win 5-1 (on match points) then both teams will be on 15 points. An Argentina TBP win would then see all three teams on 15 and Scotland likely to miss out on points difference. Argentina taking 4 points or less would see them knocked out, with Scotland topping the pool on direct results.

If Scotland win 5-0 (on match points) then Scotland will be on 15 and guaranteed to go through. A TBP win for Argentina would see Argentina top the pool on direct results (and England going out). Anything less would see Argentina on a maximum of 14 points - in which case they'd lose out to England on direct results (Scotland topping the pool).

If Scotland lose to/draw with England, they have to hope they get strictly more match points than Argentina, or it's curtains. In any scenario where Scotland fail to win, England top the pool.

Cheers Robbo. So in summary Scotland are basically fecked.

[robbo277]

The 5-0 is obviously the dream result for the Scots (and would probably still see them facing the All Blacks in the quarter-finals!) but the 4-0 looks a lot better than the 5-1, as Argentina will probably take the try bonus point. A 5-2 would see England top the pool and Scotland most likely finish below Argentina on direct results.

Of course, a big Scotland win could effect the points difference standings, but it's purely a hypothetical at this stage. I think they need to win by around 40 points (can't remember the exact number) to overhaul England's total and I think they need to win by 28 + whatever Argentina beat Georgia by to overhaul Argentina's total.

[Geordie]

GG,

But you cant call Foden being a little naive being "petulant".
He likes to run the ball, and yes there may be the odd time when a good hoof would be the correct decision...but its not petulant.

And i dont think Ashton is a wannabe hero who just finishes off big scoring games.
Many dont like his "celebration"...me included, but Ashton does work. He's constantly coming off his wing looking to support players etc, and to say he struggles when the forwards are under the cosh...well dont most wingers become a bit quieter when their going backwards?
I think Ashton is just one of thse guys that everyone have decided they dont like.

Armitage v Cueto....Foolish? Cueto has barely scored in a long time. And whilst solid....offers little offensively anymore. After some time in the dark Armitage has found some form again....and offers a great deal offensively.
Funny how everyone criticises England for being BORING.....they jump when changes are made to make the team more attacking....

[HERSH]

Am I alone in thinking that Armitage has done enough to get the No15 Jersey back.

Foden just doesn't seem to do anything in attack, his ok in defence but thats due to the fact that against poor teams and teams that lack a cutting edge England always look solid.

I want Armitage back in the full back spot.

[HERSH]

I look at the Scots team and they aren't a bad bunch of players but are they a team or has Andy Robinson coached the life out of them just like he did to England.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Am I alone in thinking that Armitage has done enough to get the No15 Jersey back.

Foden just doesn't seem to do anything in attack

I stopped reading there

[HERSH]

why

he runs away from support everytime he has the ball, his lucky that most of the time other Eng players make up for his mistakes.

Justice_4_Armitage

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

why

he runs away from support everytime he has the ball, his lucky that most of the time other Eng players make up for his mistakes.

Justice_4_Armitage

Well maybe the support should start running toward space not the defense then?

[Great White]

why

he runs away from support everytime he has the ball, his lucky that most of the time other Eng players make up for his mistakes.

Justice_4_Armitage

Truly inspired. So, what do you expect him to do? Wait around for his support players to get to him?

[rodders]

I agree Hersh. Foden has been very poor. He runs laterally away from support rather than playing with his head up. Ashton actually makes him look good a lot of the time by running support lines of him.

He must be under pressure from Armitage who's in good form.

[HERSH]

Give me Jason Robinson anyday, Foden is a poor fullback option and doesn't do anything for me.

Justice_4_Armitage

at last someone agrees with me, Foden is poor at he moment.

[Great White]

Rodders, HERSH,

Look at the stats for running yards and assists, then get your hot milk and go to beddy byes.

[robbo277]

Look at how many times the half-break is made and Ashton is there but doesn't get the off-load.

He's not the kind of winger who will beat a couple of players in a small space, but the reason he scores so many tries is because he is constantly looking to get on the end of things. Our 14 in the last World Cup (Sackey) was prepared to wait on his wing and then try to out-pace opposition players to the line. It's so much more refreshing to see someone who will pop up on the 10s shoulder after a half-break and end up under the sticks.

[George Carlin]

Things England Should Be Pleased About
1. Barclay is started instead of Rennie.
2. Vernon is starting as Kelly Brown is still concussed.
3. Scotland need to block the 15 shirt for Mossy the Metronome rather than having a genuine strike runner like Rory Lamont or Jim Thompson in his place.

Things England Should Be Very Slightly Jittery About
1. Armitage is definitely a riskier option and is more likely to be caught out of defensive sequence than Cueto.
2. Their tight five is going to get a serious work-out.
3. Conceding penalties as a means of getting the ball back is probably a bad idea here.
4. Their back three really runs on form - when they're part of a team on the front foot, they can be sublime, if they can't get ball, they have already vanished for one RWC pool match already.
5. Believing the (worldwide, rather than just local) press that this match is a foregone conclusion, despite the warm words offered about their opponents at press conferences.
6. The fact that they have no very recent experience of an arm wrestle in the peeing rain of Noo Zulund.

6 reasons to be worried and only 3 to be positive? are you saying you think scotland will win?

Nope. Where's that 'facepalm' icon when I need it?

[HERSH]

Rodders, HERSH,

Look at the stats for running yards and assists, then get your hot milk and go to beddy byes.

This isn't the NFL stats mean nothing in rugby, the Fact is Foden seems to get out of jail (no pun intended) an awful lot, this is due to other England players knowing that Foden is going to run into trouble more often than not.

Justice_4_Armitage

[Great White]

Its good that there is healthy competition for the number 15 jersey in the England squad, unlike the competition for the space inside your head....

[Sgt_Pooly]

Must agree, Foden is not setting the world alight. He runs way too much and isn't mixing his game up enough.

Saying that, boys a class act and is so strong he often holds himself up long enough for support to come and doesn't often get turned over. He is also a constant threat with ball in hand and solid in most of his game, I'd take him anyday over Armitage.

[HERSH]

But Great white that doesn't really get to the bottom of this debate, personal insults say to me that you’re losing the debate.

Armitage is the form player in the squad at the moment hence why MJ wants to play him, just wish he'd have the balls to drop Foden.

Seriuosly what has Foden done in a white (or Black) shirt that is so special?

I'm just not seeing it, against a strong team Foden will be shown up for the out of form player he is.

[HERSH]

Justice_4_Armitage

[Sgt_Pooly]

Armitage is in the side.......

[screamingaddabs]

Hersh - Are you saying you would prefer Cueto on the pitch? I'm actually a fan of Cueto and I can see your point, however I don't think he's done quite enough to warrant a start.

In my mind the best 3 "back 3" players we have at the mo are Armitage, Foden and Ashton. Let's have them all on the pitch.

[Great White]

Lose a 'debate' against you HERSH? Don't flatter yourself sonny.

There are only two specialist FB in the squad, Foden and Armitage. Armitage can also cover wing. Cueto isn't playing.

Do you want it spelt phonetically so that you are able to grasp the situation?

[Geordie]

Hersh

I think Foden is in because he is generally solid defensively...ie tackling and under the high ball. So whilst he maybe not electric attack wise at the moment he is still a good full back. And whilst i do agree that he should kick the ball the odd time...the idea that he runs the ball back all the time is trying to get the England forwards something to crash on to....

Personally i think Fodens form and fitness is better than Cuetos...so for me Cueto is rightly the one who misses out...
Foden is the current FB so Armitage slots in at wing.

[HERSH]

"Lose a 'debate' against you HERSH? Don't flatter yourself sonny."

Then why resort to insults?

Hmmm I wonder.


IMO Armitage should start at fullback ahead of the golden boy Foden due to his lack of form and ability to go missing when the heat is on (HC Final, Dublin etc), Cueto offers alot more on the wing than Armitage does, ok his not going to out pace many but his experience at this level will be needed in games such as this.

Foden isn't fit to be the H2O boy on current form, his a waste of space.

[rodders]

Lose a 'debate' against you HERSH? Don't flatter yourself sonny.

Hersh is really Sonny Bill Williams?!

[Great White]

Foden isn't fit to be the H2O boy on current form, his a waste of space.

Its that comment alone that shows everybody just how irrelevant you are.

[HERSH]

Coming from you Great White I'll take it with a pinch of Salt


Am I SBW?

Maybe.

BTW if there are any unfit fat blokes around the age of 40 who want to get into the boxing ring with me, let me know.

[rodders]

BTW if there are any unfit fat blokes around the age of 40 who want to get into the boxing ring with me, let me know.

Steve Thompson?

[HERSH]

I was hopeing for someone who'd make me look good (and boy do I look good), ST might just put up a fight.

[glamorganalun]

I have not gone through all the comments but ti would be interesting if all the English and Scottish votes were removed to get a balanced view, I (Welsh) went for England by more than 7 considering the weather is good and anybodies in poor windy weather.

Regarding the FB I am with Hersh's view (what I am saying!) Foden should not start.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I was hopeing for someone who'd make me look good (and boy do I look good), ST might just put up a fight.

Andrew Sheridan then, if "Mr mobile" Julian White can bob and weave past his best shot then you can do him

[TheGreyGhost]

GG,

But you cant call Foden being a little naive being "petulant".
He likes to run the ball, and yes there may be the odd time when a good hoof would be the correct decision...but its not petulant.

And i dont think Ashton is a wannabe hero who just finishes off big scoring games.
Many dont like his "celebration"...me included, but Ashton does work. He's constantly coming off his wing looking to support players etc, and to say he struggles when the forwards are under the cosh...well dont most wingers become a bit quieter when their going backwards?
I think Ashton is just one of thse guys that everyone have decided they dont like.

Armitage v Cueto....Foolish? Cueto has barely scored in a long time. And whilst solid....offers little offensively anymore. After some time in the dark Armitage has found some form again....and offers a great deal offensively.
Funny how everyone criticises England for being BORING.....they jump when changes are made to make the team more attacking....

It's his petulance that leads him to act in a naive manner when he should know better. He gets frustrated and can't help himself.

I disagree about Ashton. When the score starts to blow out, he gets busy trying to be the glory boy. But in tight games he goes missing. Did you see his interview after the recent Romania walk over? something along the lines of "I didn't like Cueto scoring my tries than me, so I went looking for the ball to try to score some." Hmmmm.....

Armitage just isn't international class. Sorry, but true.

[RubyGuby]

Intersting views on here - just to confuse things further Foden IMO is the most valuable player England have and the 1 genuine world class performer. Yes, he hasn't played up to his usual standard yet but form is temporary and class is permanent and this guy is the finished article. I just don't think englands backs have had a clear game plan this RWC with all of them running into blind allys, maybe its been the poor quality of the opposition - Scotland will enable England to play a more conventional game which should suit England.

[Islingtonv2]

IMO Armitage should start at fullback ahead of the golden boy Foden due to his lack of form and ability to go missing when the heat is on (HC Final, Dublin etc)

I assume this is a joke. Were you watching the same HC Final i was?

As for Armitage, what current fullback form does he have? One good run against Wales nearly 2 months ago at twickers is about all i can recall.

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