The Anti-climax of Defeat - England RWC Exit discussion thread

by sirtidychris Sat 08 Oct 2011, 12:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

Edit - KRD. All, I've merged several of the English exit threads into one

Martin johnson today made some very odd team selection decisions, Which for me almost singlehandley resulted in our loss to france. Here are the main ones that really a better international coach would have done differently.

1)Johny Wilkinson...An englsh hero but he has been very poor in this world cup, he stands too deep and is too predictable these days for top defenses, his strengths were always his goal kicking which were terrible this campaign, he had to be on the bench. why did he start when toby flood is much more threatening to defenses, has been in better form in hand and boot and has a great KRDunderstanding with youngs.

2) Matt stevens got smashed against the scots, anyone with half a brain cell knew that alex corbisiero is a much better specialist loosehead that had to start against one of the most destructive tightheads in the world, bizarely johnson started stevens again and he cost us 6 points and the scrum was going backwards until corbs made an entrance.

3)Louis Deacon a solid aviva premiership lock, but invisible on the international pitch, he is meant to be a good scrummager but when you select decent props you don't need to select a lock solely on his ability to push !. Simon Shaw was having an immense tournament he was everywhere when he played. Courtney Lawes also offers so much more, why these two players were behind plodding deacon i'll never know.

4) Lewis Moody and Nick Easter. These i think were the toughest calls, moody is the captain and easter the only real English number with experience. In fairness today easter was solid at the back of the scrums and moody was moody. However, easter was too slow to the breakdowns as predicted and too slow going forward...all he offered was slow crash ball and solidity at a scrum going in reverse, however the french back three were everywhere, haskell has been one of our best players all tournament, he runs all day and gets to the breakdowns and also plays in France he would have been the ideal player for this game. Moody is not the player he once was and i feel Tom wood offers so much more these days, if moody started then at least wood should have been on the bench.

5) The english midfield is a 1000 word article on its own ! but wilkinson and flood was never going to work and busting it out in a world cup 1/4 final resulted in a backline that was completely clueless in attack and defense. Hape for all his detractors knows how to play in the 12 shirt for england and would have formed a soild defensive line and great crash ball...... remember Youngs, Flood, Hape, Ashton Cueto Foden all have played together regularly as a back line including the wins over France in this years six nations and the thrashing of Australia.

Johnsons selections lost us this game, he is too faithfull to the players he used to pay with and underperforming players (remember how long it took him to ditch Borthwick !) when he brought on the subs the game changed straight away but it was too late.

by screamingaddabs Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:04 pm

It may be a bit rash in my opinion to rush through changes. We all knew that in reality 2015 was a better goal than 2011. Sort out the RFU, give Johnson another couple of seasons. I expect very good results inthis time. If they don't happen we have time to change things.

by Guest Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:06 pm

going to merge this with the England discussion thread in a bit

by Cymroglan Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:06 pm

Aa a matter of interest when does MJ's contract come up for renewal ?

by HammerofThunor Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:15 pm

Now I think

by Cymroglan Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:20 pm

Well post world cup some big names may be looking for a job maybe it's time to get a outsider in.

by Geordie Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:26 pm

"Well post world cup some big names may be looking for a job maybe it's time to get a outsider in.."

No...

Sort the coaches out...ie get rid of Wells etc, get rid of the end of the liners...moody, tindall, johnny, shaw, deacon etc...keep the nucleus of the squad which is young and strong, and integrate the new blood coming through.

Oh and teach MJ to get his selections better,,,,,

by Mr Bounce Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:33 pm

Once he's won the RWC maybe we should ask Graham Henry to be our new coach??? laughing

Seriously though there were many issues with the England RWC squad that I noticed.

1. PASSION. Tuilagi, Haskell and Shaw seemed to be the only players who actually had some in the difficult games

2. LEADERSHIP. When the chips were down, where were the rallying calls? Surely keeping your team's morale up is a Captain's job? Moody was invisible.

3. DEAD WOOD. This may sound harsh, but based on their form throughout the tournament, Wilkinson, Moody and Tindall should not have been there. They were in the team for experience and past glories.

4. POOR SELECTION. Wilkinson should not have been starting these last 2 matches. Ben Youngs was AWFUL in the Scotland match. Deacon should have been replaced by Shaw these last 2 matches. Haskell should have played instead of Moody these last 2 matches and Easter should not have been brought in at Haskell's expense. Stevens is a LH prop at a pinch. Most of his caps have been at TH - why play him against 2 of the best specialist 3's in the last 2 matches? He was always going to struggle!

5. DISCIPLINE. I don't need to say any more on this subject...

6. ODD DECISIONS. Why take Joe Simpson to NZ to "blood him" if you're only going to use him for 20 minutes? It just doesn't make sense. Youngs was coming back from injury, so why not start Simpson in the Romania game then have Youngs do the last 20? It would have been ideal experience for Simpson.

7. NEXT TIME TAKE SOME SPECIALISTS IN KEY POSITIONS. We had no proper 7, and one 12. We played a 6 at 8 & 7 (admittedly he was one of our better players in the tournament).

There are many more issues but I have lost patience with listing them.

by Guest Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:41 pm

HeHe!

by Geordie Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:44 pm

Mr bounce,

I agree with all that.

The only one i disagree with is the one that i was correctly challenged i on....where are the true 7's?
I rated Armitage but he wasnt even given a chance for some reason...

by Mr Bounce Sat 08 Oct 2011, 4:57 pm

IMO we have not had a decent 7 have a good run at the shirt since Neil Back. Steffon Armitage was supposed to be excellent but was dumped and has hardly been near the squad since. Tom Rees is more brittle than a lead crystal glass so he's out. Magnus Lund was overseas, not considered and forgotten by then, Lipman lost form and then wasn't considered due to "Bathgate", Saull didn't have the experience, Robshaw for all his qualities is a 6.5 in the same mould as Haskell/Wood and nobody else appears to be sticking their hand up.

As for 12, well, why they didn't take Barritt, or even Flutey I don't know. Twelvetrees would have been a possibility as well, although it's probably a year too early. Guaranteed if we ran our squads like Australia and NZ both Barritt and Twelvetrees would have 15+ caps by now.

by aitchw Sat 08 Oct 2011, 5:08 pm

There are so many things need doing now and many have been mentioned but it occurs to me that along with sorting the centres out we need to be bringing a back up for Flood along urgently. Wilko's days in an England shirt should be over now and Flood needs to grow into the fact he is our 1st choice but just as in every position young talent needs to be brought through. We should be prepared to use 6 nations as a vehicle to start that process. We'll probably get handed our arses a few times but young players need their chance not and not when they're in their late twenties.

by wickedwasp Sat 08 Oct 2011, 5:23 pm

Wells has to go - the forwards were atrocious - slow ponderous and ineffective. Stevens offers nothing, Cole has gone backwards, Thompson shouldn't have started, Deacon will never be more than OK and Palmer was alright, but no more.

As for the backrow - hopeless. Moody is fearless but ineffectual, Easter is so slow my son was actually laughing when he made his "break" and Croft can't do it all.

Youngs can't be expected to play well with no decent ball. Jonny did alright, but need to step aside now with our gratitude and admiration, Flood needs to stop trying to throw offloads out of every tackle (twice in a row - interception, back to our own 22, grrr) Manu will be great, Ashton and Foden stay, but Cueto is another goodbye with thanks I'm afraid.

For those not playing, most deserve another shot, particularly Joe Simpson (yes, I am biased), Corbisiero, Wood, Lawes & Armitage, but Tindall's had his go, Hape was never right & Banahan is just big - not good.

It's not all bad, there is the backbone of a decent team, but we must sort out the forwards and our forward play has gone backwards ever since Wells was in charge.

by trebellbobaggins Sat 08 Oct 2011, 5:59 pm

Wells has been at the heart of every failure. He took a country that based it's success around good disciplined forwards and turned them into a rabble who get stuffed all too often.

He has to go. If Johnson is so loyal he cannot kick him then he must go too.

by scoi Sat 08 Oct 2011, 6:09 pm

Johnson said a year or 2 ago that he didnt want to be in the England set up as he had no experience of coaching. He made some poor selection in the WC squad and match day teams/squads. A great player and captain but no-one would ever have thought that tactics were his real strong point.

Why put in a second row on the flank when you have one of your most in form players on the bench. It screamed conservative play or maybe trying to grasp for something to change things.

Wilkinson decision spoke more than anything, didnt do anything in the pool games to be ahead of Flood, kicked awfully, but still got the starting spot. Coaches who played with their team dont see them the same as impartials.

Some clearing out to happen now both players and coaching staff. There are some quality players in England but the holding on to the past is costing them.

by emack2 Sat 08 Oct 2011, 6:39 pm

Firstly the reality,england are going home,no that`s not rubbing it in just an observation.Forget the extra curricular and be objective,this was overall
a young team.Expectations were win the group,maybe exit in the semi`s 2015 being more realistic prior to getting here.
There was a spine of experienced players,some in there mid ,late 30`s,hindsight says some did`nt perform.
Once Ireland beat Australia,it was all we`re 6Ns champs,we did well in 2003,and 2007 etc.so were automaticaly finalists.
Reality is 2007 was a very good feat by a very average side,this side is a lot better.
The 6Ns was built around a young side with Toby Flood at 10 trying to play
creative rugby.
Comes the RWC Jonny Wilkinson starts a t 10,supposedly to keep the scoreboard ticking over,he does`nt.
Scraping out of the group stage,by narrowly beating Argentina[without there 2 playmakers]and Scotland who at the moment can`t .score try`s.
They meet France who have lost twice,but shown moments of supreme skill
first 10 mins All Blacks,last minute Tonga.
Knock out stages France can suddenly play Liievrmont may be is crazy,like a fox.
Maybe the original scenario he mapped out comes true,throw the All Black match.
Hope to make the final,with most of his first choice side intact,facing maybe a wounded all Blacks side injury weakened.That was the scene painted pre RWC.
No knee jerk reactions,but let the golden oldies become just that,look at the coaching staff and amend as required.
Finally clean out the RFU get the right men for the job.not "jobsworths"
then rebuild for 2015 get it right and it could be a home win.

by sirtidychris Sat 08 Oct 2011, 7:32 pm

Scoi

I agree with most your comments however he brought Lawes on for Croft as Croft is one of our main jumpers in the lineout, thats why he always gets picked because he offers that other dimension even though you could argue that haskell and Wood may be better classic blindsides. When we lost croft we lost a massive part of our lineout game so Lawes had to go on, when he did he took most of the lineout balls.

It does show the lunacy of johnson gameplan though to try play and expansive game with lawes, easter and moody as 6,7,8 against one of the most athletic backrows in the world !!

by sportform Sat 08 Oct 2011, 9:34 pm

Reasons why England lost:-

1) Lack of professionalism.
2) The last two RWC have covered up the lack of structure/ coaching in place in English rugby.
3) Bonus points. Without bonus points England would have been playing Tonga.
4) Martin Johnson. He has no coaching experience.

by Bazzer79 Sat 08 Oct 2011, 10:09 pm

Was at the game last night, and was bitterly dissapointed. Had serious concerns over MJ's selections prior to the match.

IMO what England need;

1.) Leadership from the top. Sort out all the infighting and appoint & Chief Executive and Performance Director asap - arise Sir Clive! At least then the RFU can concentrate on moving forwards to RWC 2015 not fighting each other.

2.) Stick with MJ. No Manager/Coach has picked up his badges and won a RWC in four years. He should however be closely scrutinised by the board on his ability to find new players for RWC 2015.

3.) Review on the entire coaching panel. Wells & Ford have been there for longer than I can remember and are clearly not producing the good when it counts. MJ needs the best coaches around him and that clearly isn't the current situation.

4.) Put any player unlikely too be available for RWC 2015, out to pasture and start a 4 year rebuilding cycle. There is a nucleus of a good team, with positions to be filled. These new players won't be discovered if we continue to select Wilko, Tinds, Shaw, Moody etc.

5.) Get some logic and consistency into selection. Why back Hape for 2 years, then play a fly-half at 12, when the front runner is injured? Why play Stevens on the wrong side of the scrum. etc etc

The team I would like to see next 6N, with players in brackets to be brought along in the squad;

1.) Corbisiero (Marler, ?)
2.) Hartley (?)
3.) Cole, Stevens (?)
4.) Lawes,(?)
5.) Palmer, Attwood(?)
6.) Croft (?)
7.) Robshaw (?)
8.) Haskell
9.) Care, Youngs, (Simpson)
10.) Flood, (Clegg, Ford, Farrell?)
11.) Armitage, Monye (Sharples)
12.) Hape (JTH, Twelvetrees)
13.) Tuilagi (?)
14.) Ashton, Strettle (Wade)
15.) Foden, Armitage (?)

This leaves MJ & co with a lot or work!!!

by Guest Sat 08 Oct 2011, 10:28 pm

I think England need to "grab a kiwi" you know if each player snatched a local rugby player and smuggled them home in a suitcase they could muster up a pretty effective 15.

by PJHolybloke Sat 08 Oct 2011, 10:57 pm

viewtothegym wrote:I think England need to "grab a kiwi" you know if each player snatched a local rugby player and smuggled them home in a suitcase they could muster up a pretty effective 15.

In much the same fashion, next time you're out in polite company, try and nick yourself a neurone and muster yourself up a synapse. laughing

by Guest Sat 08 Oct 2011, 11:11 pm

by PJHolybloke Sat 08 Oct 2011, 11:21 pm

by Guest Sat 08 Oct 2011, 11:27 pm

by rhino-dragon Sat 08 Oct 2011, 11:51 pm

" England will have too much power power france and Irish in the semi's " quote from Dalaglio last weekend.

Thats the main reason England lost. Just because it may of happened four years ago doesn't mean it will now. How could he right of Wales who only beat England two months ago.

Also England tend to only play positive rugby when they are behind. This i believe is Johnson's tactic and is doing Englands backline a disservice. England need to be positive and play to their strengths from the outset. Your front five can't dominate everyone like it did eight years ago England have strength in other areas now its time to play to those strengths.

by PJHolybloke Sun 09 Oct 2011, 12:07 am

....well I farted just before Phillips sniped up the short side for his try, so I guess I can claim the credit for that.... Yahoo

Oooooon the other hand, can we not just all accept and agree on the fact that England just weren't good enough, rather than make it into an "England lost because they under-estimated France and already thought they were in the semi-final through typical English arrogance" (

TGG) kind of thing?

I'd be really grateful.

Ta. kiss

by TheGreyGhost Sun 09 Oct 2011, 6:55 am

PJHolybloke wrote:....well I farted just before Phillips sniped up the short side for his try, so I guess I can claim the credit for that....

Oooooon the other hand, can we not just all accept and agree on the fact that England just weren't good enough, rather than make it into an "England lost because they under-estimated France and already thought they were in the semi-final through typical English arrogance" ( TGG) kind of thing?

I'd be really grateful.

Ta.

When have I said anything like that?

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun 09 Oct 2011, 8:30 am

rhino-dragon wrote:" England will have too much power power france and Irish in the semi's " quote from Dalaglio last weekend.

Thats the main reason England lost. Just because it may of happened four years ago doesn't mean it will now. How could he right of Wales who only beat England two months ago.

Also England tend to only play positive rugby when they are behind. This i believe is Johnson's tactic and is doing Englands backline a disservice. England need to be positive and play to their strengths from the outset. Your front five can't dominate everyone like it did eight years ago England have strength in other areas now its time to play to those strengths.

England also beat Wales 2 months ago & are 6Ns champions, they just didn't turn up at the WC.
Most neutrals would have probably agreed with LOLs predictions including the bookies.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I agree with your last paragraph though.

by maestegmafia Sun 09 Oct 2011, 9:31 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
rhino-dragon wrote:" England will have too much power power france and Irish in the semi's " quote from Dalaglio last weekend.

Thats the main reason England lost. Just because it may of happened four years ago doesn't mean it will now. How could he right of Wales who only beat England two months ago.

Also England tend to only play positive rugby when they are behind. This i believe is Johnson's tactic and is doing Englands backline a disservice. England need to be positive and play to their strengths from the outset. Your front five can't dominate everyone like it did eight years ago England have strength in other areas now its time to play to those strengths.

England also beat Wales 2 months ago & are 6Ns champions, they just didn't turn up at the WC.
Most neutrals would have probably agreed with LOLs predictions including the bookies.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I agree with your last paragraph though.

England were lucky to not concede two losses to Wales. But they did a great job on us in the six nations.

England looked a good side until they played France in the six nations. That's when the wheels started to fall off.

The hype and confidence was based around the two excellent wins over the ozzies last year, sparking the English publics thoughts that England were going to be challengers at this RWC.

My thoughts for the future of English rugby.

A big clear out at the rfu, get rid of the prl.

Employ a few top foreign coaches to replace Johnson, wells and co.

Give the whole game in England a good shake up

Unfortunately rugby is far more fickle than that.

by robbo277 Sun 09 Oct 2011, 10:51 am

For me MJ's biggest World Cup blunder was calling up Thomas Waldrom. Don't particularly rate the guy (although he was the best available 8 at the time of his call-up), but he was called up to replace Sheridan almost at the same time as Easter was declared fit. As a result Waldrom never played. It would have been much more sensible to call up a creative back in my opinion.

Six Nations EPS:

Loose-heads: Sheridan, Corbisiero
Hookers: Hartley, Mears, Paice
Tight-heads: Cole, Stevens
Locks: Lawes, Attwood, Palmer, Kitchener
Flankers: Croft, Wood, Robshaw, Fourie
Number 8s: Crane, Narraway

Scrum-halves: Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth
Fly-halves: Flood, Hodgson
Inside centres: Hape, Twelvetrees
Outside centres: Tuilagi, Trinder
Wings: Ashton, Sharples, Simpson-Daniel, Banahan
Full-backs: Foden, Armitage

Fourie is really just a place-holder until Haskell comes back from his sabbatical year, although whether he settles at flanker or number 8 remains to be seen.

There's some talented young players inside and outside the England squad, and I think we should look to get them together. If you look at our likely starting line-up from that squad (Sheridan, Hartley, Cole, Attwood, Lawes, Croft, Wood, Crane, Youngs, Flood, Sharples, Hape, Tuilagi, Ashton, Foden) it builds upon all the things that have been right about England Rugby over the last year or so while moving the squad forward.

by Guest Sun 09 Oct 2011, 1:09 pm

Dallagio has been a very poor pundit all along and seems to turn every single game into how England will become better from the outcome,

His latest being how England lost in the quarters in 99 and won in 03,
South Africa lost in the quarters 03 and won in 07,
so England must be favourites for the 2015!

Also his constant mention on how England WON the second half v France is just vomit inducing.

He like Johnson are far to arrogant and proud to complement the opposition and just admit they just weren't good enough.

A huge contrast to Francois Pienaar with his modest,honest and complementary approach

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sun 09 Oct 2011, 2:41 pm

Correct View. I stated elsewhere that they never, ever show any respect to the opposition no matter who it is they play. From top to bottom they are an arrogant, conceited rabble. As Alfie Thomas said today after the ABs match, they showed no character on or off the field and Eddie Butler referred to them as 'sour faced boozers' in today's Observer.

by gavstar Sun 09 Oct 2011, 2:52 pm

From a Welsh perspective, it seems quite a few English supporters are saying this about their team-
1--we are a good team
2---we just havent turned up at this rwc
3---we've beaten Wales recently.
4--- we are 6Nations champions
5--- we are better than this rwc performance.

I hope you continue to support your team with these positives, and I hope the coaches and management do the same.

by **George Carlin** Sun 09 Oct 2011, 3:06 pm

As a neutral, there's a lot of the (inevitable?) reactionary stuff here.

Although they were disappointing, England haven't had anything like the troubles of Ireland and Wales four years ago. In 2007, Ireland had a wretched tournament, losing to France and Argentina in the pool stages, while Wales fell at the same hurdle, with defeats by Australia and Fiji. Neither reached the quarter-final stage.

Was there a meltdown in Welsh or Irish rugby?

Nope. Less than six months after their shock loss to Fiji, Wales were hammering France 29-12 for a Six Nations Grand Slam. A few weeks later, Munster lifted the Heineken Cup for a second time. The following year, that trophy was taken by Leinster, just a couple of months after Ireland had won their Six Nations Grand Slam. When the 2009 Lions squad was selected, 26 of the 37 players were either Irish or Welsh.

You need a clear-out, sure, but a lot of teams here will feel that - Scotland fans like me, for one (although only our attack coach).

The only fear will be if Andrew is not big enough or broad minded enough to consider left-field choices like Brendan Venter. Then you're really selling yourselves short.

by Guest Sun 09 Oct 2011, 3:10 pm

for me wilko has to go, and we can build around flood, with hape 12, and tuliagi 13...I was staggered jonno took off moody our SKIPPER, with 20 mins to go, when we clearly needed him to stay on the field, also suprised that youngs came off, especially when wigglesworth first touch was to knock the ball forward!!

by radelven Sun 09 Oct 2011, 3:13 pm

robbo277, Crane is out for the season, so he won't be available for the 6N. I think the EPS needs to be shaken up more than that.

My squad would be something like:

Corbisero
Marler
Cole
Stevens
Mullan
Hartley
Gray
Webber
Attwood
Lawes
Kitchener
Parling
Wood
Croft
Fearns
Robshaw
Dowson (I'd be looking to bring Crane in for (or addition to) him when fit again)
Guest

Youngs
Care
Simpson
Flood
Burns
Twelvetrees (to play centre)
Barritt
Tuilagi
Allen/Lowe
Joseph (OC/wing, great bench option)
Ashton
Sharples
Short (tempted to throw Wade in, but probably a bit too soon)
Foden
Brown (harsh on Armitage who looks back in form and is more versatile, but Brown is still a better FB in my book)

I'd expect Haskell to challenge when he returns next year and I'd also have a very close eye on Armitage at Toulon to see if he could be tempted back (maybe even an 'exceptional circumstance' if he really performs).

For the Saxons I'd hope to see the likes of (there's more than a squad here):

Brookes
Thomas
Imiolek
PDJ
Wilson
Youngs
Haywood
Buchanan
Day
Slater
Launchbury
Skivington
Saull
Kvesic
Mercer
Gibson
Seymour
Clark
Nutley
Narraway
Gray

Young
Dickson
Ford
Clegg
Farrell
JTH
May
Trinder
Lowe
Waldouck
Benjamin
Wade
Homer
Yarde
Elliot
Armstrong
Varndell
Banahan
Armitage
Goode
Ransom
Abendanon

by Guest Sun 09 Oct 2011, 4:07 pm

But may i add Phil Vickery was awesome, he said it as it was very complimentary when called for and also very supportive of every team.

by Gwlad Sun 11 Oct 2015, 5:44 am

Cumbrian wrote:I've said elsewhere, we really do need to guard against knee-jerk reactions. Some of the coaching staff definitely need to go though, England looked like they'd never seen each other a times during this tournament. As I've said elsewhere too, we've got the bones of a good and young team, they need the direction to go with it though.

4 years old this post….sound familiar? 4.LOST.YEARS.

by JimmySarries Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:22 am

Yep and many of the complaints from four years ago ring true still, reverting to type, changing fly halves for more pragmatic option (or shoehorning both fly halves into team with one at IC), general uncertainty around the centres........

God it's depressing!!

by yappysnap Sun 11 Oct 2015, 9:11 am

Frak that's depressing reading.

by TightHEAD Sun 11 Oct 2015, 6:51 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:I've said elsewhere, we really do need to guard against knee-jerk reactions. Some of the coaching staff definitely need to go though, England looked like they'd never seen each other a times during this tournament. As I've said elsewhere too, we've got the bones of a good and young team, they need the direction to go with it though.

4 years old this post….sound familiar? 4.LOST.YEARS.

I disagree' it only fell apart in the warm ups and the squad selection killed us and created a divide between the players and coaching staff. Oh and we forgot how to scrummage and clear out.

by Gwlad Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:06 pm

Dwarves to horses, i suppose thats progress.

But this is the key issue. Unless England recognizes this disease within its set up they will never break out of it

It went wrong long before the warm ups

1. Inconsistent selection
2. Obsession with culture not results and yet total mismanagement of their two great players, Hartley and Manu.
3. Failure to convert under pressure; just how many 6 Nations titles in the last 4 years could England have had
4. Can a coach have their son in the squad?
5. the midfield
6. New broom philosophy
7. The selection rules ref Armitage and Abendanon
8. Still not knowing what style of rugby they want to pursue.

What England needs is a big name coach proven at the top level. What they have picked, unbelievably when you look at it, is a former star on the pitch and then a schoolmaster. That is where the new

by Geordie Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:07 pm

Its like De ja vu....

Scary scary....

by Gwlad Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:09 pm

Time to get a Mallet or jones in, then we'll see what England can really do

by Geordie Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:13 pm

Gwlad wrote:Dwarves to horses, i suppose thats progress.

But this is the key issue. Unless England recognizes this disease within its set up they will never break out of it

It went wrong long before the warm ups

1. Inconsistent selection
2. Obsession with culture not results and yet total mismanagement of their two great players, Hartley and Manu.
3. Failure to convert under pressure; just how many 6 Nations titles in the last 4 years could England have had
4. Can a coach have their son in the squad?
5. the midfield
6. New broom philosophy
7. The selection rules ref Armitage and Abendanon
8. Still not knowing what style of rugby they want to pursue.

What England needs is a big name coach proven at the top level. What they have picked, unbelievably when you look at it, is a former star on the pitch and then a schoolmaster. That is where the new

I agree with everything you say BAR this one which I'm utterly fed up with hearing.

There is no way on earth I would swap Abendanon for Brown. And if need be Watson or Nowell should replace Brown.

As for Armitage...well I'm not disputing his ability...but I honestly think we have kids who can fill that 7 spot if its decided that's what we need. So I would hold iff the rush to bring him in.

by Geordie Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:14 pm

Gwlad wrote:Time to get a Mallet or jones in, then we'll see what England can really do

And that's just the most absurd thing ive heard...and keep hearing. No thanks!!

by TightHEAD Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:31 pm

Gwlad wrote:Dwarves to horses, i suppose thats progress.

But this is the key issue. Unless England recognizes this disease within its set up they will never break out of it

It went wrong long before the warm ups

1. Inconsistent selection
2. Obsession with culture not results and yet total mismanagement of their two great players, Hartley and Manu.
3. Failure to convert under pressure; just how many 6 Nations titles in the last 4 years could England have had
4. Can a coach have their son in the squad?
5. the midfield
6. New broom philosophy
7. The selection rules ref Armitage and Abendanon
8. Still not knowing what style of rugby they want to pursue.

What England needs is a big name coach proven at the top level. What they have picked, unbelievably when you look at it, is a former star on the pitch and then a schoolmaster. That is where the new

What were they to do about Hartley and Manu, both are grown men and both have made stupid mistakes, You'd think Hartley would have learnt his lesson after missing the Lions tour, as for Manu I don't know all the facts so won't judge him too harshly but I think England took the correct stance with him.

Agree with falcon about Bendy, he left bath as he feared Watson was going to get more game time ahead of him so he made his choice.

But the rest I can agree on.

by gregortree Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:32 pm

Touching how this thread attracts so much concern from Welsh scribblers. Come and join us after your QF. kiss

by thomh Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:36 pm

Manu is still injured anyway. In fact, Leicester fans on their rugbynetwork board seem quite animated by Lancaster making a big splash of excluding Manu on that basis when he apparently already knew Manu wasn't going to make it.

The Abendanon point is silly as Brown has been our best player.

by stub Sun 11 Oct 2015, 7:38 pm

Yes this all seems very cyclical - time to break that pattern now. Let's be bold and do something new and find our own way of using our resources to the fullest potential.

by doctor_grey Mon 12 Oct 2015, 12:42 am

This was fascinating reading. Clearly highlights there was nothing of value learned by the new administration which was not learned the hard way by the previous administration. In other words, 4 lost years. The saints of the 2015 RWC were not better than the sinners of the 2011. As someone here said (and apologoies, I can't recall who): Seems to be too much focus on cluture and not enough on what it takes to play Rugby.

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