Burley vs Robinson

First topic message reminder :

Have just finished reading 'Charley Burley and the Black Murderers Row'.

Being a fairly new boxing geek (learning about the history as well as watching the current fighters) I was intrigued about the claims that Sugar Ray Robinson wanted no part of Burley and was requesting 50k to fight him when he'd usually get less than 10k for a fight. When later offered 60k he again refused the fight.

Is this a case of Robinson 'avoiding' Burley or was it more a case of the writer making more of the story than there was?

Was a really good book as well.

Waingro wrote:

huw wrote:For anyone that is interested this looks like a decent little video showcasing some of Burleys talents.

At work so only watched half and without sound, what I saw looked good though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4&feature=related

Would this guy be able to beat Hopkins or De la Hoya? .

Yes, quite possibly in the same night.

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote:

huw wrote:For anyone that is interested this looks like a decent little video showcasing some of Burleys talents.

At work so only watched half and without sound, what I saw looked good though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4&feature=related

Would this guy be able to beat Hopkins or De la Hoya? .

Yes, quite possibly in the same night.

Although it would depend if ODLH had the same judges as those involved in the Whitaker / Sturm fights

huw wrote:

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote:

huw wrote:For anyone that is interested this looks like a decent little video showcasing some of Burleys talents.

At work so only watched half and without sound, what I saw looked good though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4&feature=related

Would this guy be able to beat Hopkins or De la Hoya? .

Yes, quite possibly in the same night.

Although it would depend if ODLH had the same judges as those involved in the Whitaker / Sturm fights

Not sure about that mate I thought they were close fights tbh he could also win by ko. De la Hoya was pure class he fought in lots of divisions shows how good he was. would this guy be able to win world titles in lots of weights I dont think he was able to but in boxing you never know what will happen and its hard to compare old boxers to new ones

only watched 5 seconds of it, before i recalled it being the highly arty pretentious bunch of tosh i'd seen before. I'd happily watch burley dance round billy smith again, but can't handle the condescending lectures in between.

That said, its great that we have at least some footage of burley. A beautifully balanced fighter... more impressive defensively than offensively to me though... right hand a bit crude. Sorry jeff. Still vastly superior to that mug robbo though, obviously.

Waingro, I dont know how familiar you are with Burley's career, but De La Hoya's muti weight achievements bare little relevence in a head to head matchup as they had completely different careers against completely different opposition. Oscar was of course the "Golden Boy." He was practically given the title as soon as he was capable, he was the cashcow. A cashcow in an era of several belts per weight class.

Burley on the other hand was a fighter in an era where title shots could be given and taken away based on corruption/preference/colour etc. This in an era with one world title per division. Burley fought and beat great opposition from welter to light heavy but the complex politics of the time (which have already been discussed at length) kept him from any shot at a title at any division. Make no mistake, he was "pure class." Oscar KO'ing him would be very unlikely as he fought power punchers at light heavyweight and in over 80 fights was never stopped.

Hopkins v Burley would be a purist's wet dream...and a complete stinker.


milkyboy, I think the reason his right hand looks a little wild against Smith is down to him (officially) being outweighed by 12 pounds by a renowned KO wildcat of a light heavy. I say officially because I believe Burley sometimes simply wrote down "160" and got outta there, such was the style of weigh ins at the time. With this in mind he may well have been at weight disadvantage of over a stone, so he would need to really drive the right home to make an impact. That's the way I see it anyway.

John, Burley could be a bit defensive in many fights, was apparently quite aggressive in fights where someone got under his skin, read reports of his fight with Moore, who he apparently considered cocky and he seemed to have been far more aggressive than was usual in that and bounced Archie off the canvas almost at will, Windy put a report of his fiht against heavyweight Turner on here some time ago and again in that one he seemed very aggressive, outpunching a heavyweight.

john, it was more a stylistic comment than anything. As i said he looks beautifully balanced, but his right hand looks a touch haymakerish to me. i.e. big swinging round armed rather than through the pipe. Without other video footage its hard to say whether that was normal for him or not. I'd suspect it was normal as he clearly likes to lean back from punches and throw it as a swinging counter... but it could well have been opponent specific and burley officionados may well put me right!

Its not a criticism as such, some of the greats have used swinging right hands to great effect, just looks a little cumbersome compared to the other silkier skills in his repertoire.

I was also hoping to get a rise from rowley... but failed miserably

Milky as most on this thread seem to be in consensus that Robinson should have fought Burley I am more than happy. Is a great tragedy there is so little footage available of him, would be terrific to see him in one of his more aggresive performances such as Moore.

Is always risky to assess a guy on one fight because as I have argued more than once if all we had to base Ali on was the Spinks fight would we all be so quick to accept he possessed the speed and movement of a middleweight in his absolute pomp?

I see the comparison drawn between Burley and Roy Jones made alot. AJ Nelson was a sparring partner of many of the murderers row and said Roy Jones was the closest thing he had seen to Burley in his lifetime. I dont think theres enough footage of Burley around for people now to able to say for sure though.

I think he should have fought him too jeff... i just thought their was a bit of unfair flak coming at robbo hence my earlier attempts at a case for the defence.

I didn't think burley was particularly negative in this fight, infact he looked like a guy ahead of his time in every respect... except a fairly crude looking right hand. You're right its a real shame there's no more footage of him, but then perhaps given the paucity of footage of many older fighters maybe we should just be happy to at least have some.

It is also true that Burley seems to be as difficult a guy outside of the ring as he was inside
He had a number of different managers .Now that cant have helped fight negotations etc .
In addition it suggests a guy that would be awkward to deal with and manage.To change manager once or twice could be personality clashes etc.To change 5 or 6 times suggests the fighter themselves might be the problem(sorry for lack of detail but my Burley books seem to be on permanent loan to a friend who borrowed them for a week 6 months ago!)
Burley has been described as a no compromise principiled guy.There is much to admire in that.Its a double edged sword though as management and promoters would view him as a difficult and awkward individual.
Boxing politics then as now are complex .There was the mob influence and apparently Burley would have nothing to do with them.I am not suggesting SRR was a mob fighter (far from it to much heresy already in this thread ) but he didnt go out of his way to upset them. Sometimes deals need to be done and compromises made and Burley might not be the guy for this

The Matthew Macklin of the BMR?

Skidd think you are absolutely right, was pretty accepted Burley point blank refused to either get in bed with the mob or be involved in any fight that was on the level. Not sure he was awkward or difficult but he was extremely principled. What is often forgotten is Burley qualified to represent the US at the Berlin Olympics and turned it down on moral grounds in objection to Hitler's Nazism which was on the rise in Germany at the time. For a young man to turn down an opportunity like that suggests a man of fierce and pretty unwavering principles.

rowley wrote:Skidd think you are absolutely right, was pretty accepted Burley point blank refused to either get in bed with the mob or be involved in any fight that was on the level. Not sure he was awkward or difficult but he was extremely principled. What is often forgotten is Burley qualified to represent the US at the Berlin Olympics and turned it down on moral grounds in objection to Hitler's Nazism which was on the rise in Germany at the time. For a young man to turn down an opportunity like that suggests a man of fierce and pretty unwavering principles.

I had forgotten that .Thanks

For a young black guy to turn down the chance of fighting for his country in those times!!Almost career suicide and not likely to endear himself to the boxing authorities and the American public.Fascinating guy Burley for sure

rowley wrote:John, Burley could be a bit defensive in many fights, was apparently quite aggressive in fights where someone got under his skin, read reports of his fight with Moore, who he apparently considered cocky and he seemed to have been far more aggressive than was usual in that and bounced Archie off the canvas almost at will, Windy put a report of his fiht against heavyweight Turner on here some time ago and again in that one he seemed very aggressive, outpunching a heavyweight.

and if anyone can get under a guy's skin, it's Hopkins.