Don't believe the hype

Ok England have not done well at this world cup. Everyone can see that. There have been some unfortunate headlines surrounding the team as well. The British press have been extremely quick to condemn the 'scandal' of the English rugby team.

The thing is that these headlines are mostly being published by football centric papers. The daily Mail have branded them a 'disgrace to the last'. Martin Samuel of all people accuses England of having 'no class on or off the pitch'. According to the Telegraph the 'RFU (is) in meltdown as England crisis grows'.

Now I appreciate that the England players haven't behaved professionally and that they have failed at their goal of winning the world cup but the reporting of these events has been a bit too gleeful in my opinion. The UK press have enjoyed watching the posh rugger chaps making jubblies of themselves and have jumped all over it.

I have no direct evidence that this is due to them trying to take a moral highground for football but there has in the past been comparison by the two when a rugby player has stepped out of line. I have read articles in the past suggesting that rugby isn't as holy as we make out. For instance during the bloodgate scandal

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/6062178/Rugby-has-lost-moral-high-ground-to-lecture-football-after-Bloodgate.html

Let's be honest though. Rugby has a far better disciplinary record than football. Had it been footballers in a hotel room with a female hotel worker who knows what might have happened?

Yes they were unprofessional but they haven't broken any laws (other than jumping off a ferry).

Like I say I have no evidence and this is all speculation but the way it has been blown out of proportion just got me thinking. We should be proud that we take such a low opinion of players like these when footballers like Marlon King and Joey Barton are not just welcomed back with open arms but are now considered to be some kind of heroes. If a rugby player were to do the things these two had done there would be calls to ban the game completely.

All I'm saying is keep it in perspective. Yes it was a disappointing campaign for England but when you're reading the papers about these disgraceful scandals, just don't believe the hype.

The sad thing is that the papers are concentrating on stories like this when they should be concentrating on the sides still left in the competition.

Totally agree.

The media in this country are a disgrace. Whatever happended to getting beat by a better team on the day. The reason wasn't because you had a few beers a couple of weeks ago, it's because 15 men beat your 15 men. Simple as that.

mckay1402 wrote:Yes they were unprofessional but they haven't broken any laws (other than jumping off a ferry).

Thats got to be the quote of the century!

As MJ said, or something like that, hmm, bunch of rugby boys on tour caught drinking and partying, yeah, well that will be a surprise really won't it, so what?

Guess the only real scandel was the ball switching, as that was cheating, but why in a match that England was winning by a large margin anyway and not in any danger of losing?

Cymroglan wrote:The sad thing is that the papers are concentrating on stories like this when they should be concentrating on the sides still left in the competition.

Its true, but the sad fact is that its self perpetuating. The press scandalise the actions of the players because they know tiny minded anti-English saddos will lap it up. Tiny minded anti-English saddos lap it up creating a need for more scandal. The press further scandalise the actions of the players....

It seems that Colin Meads agrees with me

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15258982.stm

As I've said before, it's exactly what you say mixed with more than a pinch of ill-discipline. I do not condone the doomsday ramblings of the British press, least of all its unreasonable football-oriented jibberish but there's no smoke without fire and the players have nonetheless acted irresponsibly for professionals on the biggest stage.

(Allegedly) Harrassing a maid and diving from a moving ferry are not things you can just wave away, made all the more sour by the fact that the guilty parties have mainly failed to show the grace of owning up and apologising. The drinking may have been inaccurately amplified by the extreme steps in responsibility taken by others (Warburton's self-imposed drink ban) but still, attending a midget-hurling contest isn't something I'd consider a good sign.

I agree that England's off-field behaviour probably didn't contribute to their going out at the QFs. Instead, they simply don't have a strong enough team. However, I take issue with a few of the points you make about the discipline of the team in a wider perspective:

1) Rugby has a far better disciplinary record than football.

Hmmm... In what sense? If you mean in the sense that players don't crowd the ref and managers don't question decisions, then, yes, that's more common in football. However, that's because rugby has legislated against it. However, football clamps down more on physical violence in a way that rugby doesn't.

2) Had it been footballers in a hotel room with a female hotel worker who knows what might have happened?

That's pretty crass speculation. It was be as easy to argue that it's worse in the case of rugby players because they're so much more physically intimidating.

3) We should be proud that we take such a low opinion of players like these when footballers like Marlon King and Joey Barton are not just welcomed back with open arms but are now considered to be some kind of heroes.

I would dispute that either of those players are seen as heroes in football. Nonetheless, you have a short memory if you think rugby players are above such things. What happened last time England toured NZ? New Toulon signing Willie Mason must be as big a scumbag as anyone in football. Historically, there are plenty of examples. Doesn't Stephen Ferris have an assault charge hanging over him?

Generally, while I agree that rugby is held up to different standards to football, I think it cuts both ways. Indiscipline in rugby is more likely to be seen as representing a decline in standards. However, incidents involving rugby players are more often dismissed as 'boys being boys'.

Firstly I think its sad that the good PR the English did has been overlooked they did, the school visits etc to a great extent by all accounts. I also think the press have looked for stories with the new Royal connection.

However, certain members of the squad seem to have pressed the self destruct button.

The night out may have been innocent but given the scrutiny that was bound to be upon them, getting lathered in public was a very very dumb idea.

The ball swapping was again stupid but betrayed the pressure the English camp were under.

The harrassment from what Ive read actually seems the most serious, It displays not only an utter lack of sense but also a pretty disgusting attitude espescially given the accounts of the alledged apology. This should have been dealt with very seriously, It was actually the first incident and I wonder how the behaviour in the camp would have changed if it had been dealt with properly. Basically Johnson let some pf the players get away with sexual harrassment an inuendo towards a local.

Tuilagi and moodys decision to wear the wrong sponsers mouthguard even after this had been an issue for other teams shows a level of arrogance that is reflected in all the actions the English players involved have displayed.

Ben Youngs may have had a point about the media but really after everything that has happened, a bit of contrition would have gone down better, again he comes accross as arrogant and dismissive of the bad press.

The players (not all of them) have let themselves and their manager down. Johnson gave them the freedom to act like Adults and police themselves, just as Gatland has done with Wales. Some of Johnsons players responded by acting as spoilt petulant children with downright odious behaviour.

Thankyou the Right Reverend TycroesOsprey

Cymroglan wrote:The sad thing is that the papers are concentrating on stories like this when they should be concentrating on the sides still left in the competition.

Wasn't there a article yesterday moaning how the english media are now behind Wales because they are British?

you can't have it both ways?

Well said Tycroes

Both ways ? I want the sport pages to concentrate on the rugby.

Swapping the balls is illegal, but so is a forward pass.

Bitter Beer wrote:Thankyou the Right Reverend TycroesOsprey

And there is the attitude displayed by some of the English team throughout their truncated stay in New Zealand. I couldnt have written a better example.

tee hee

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Bitter Beer wrote:Thankyou the Right Reverend TycroesOsprey

And there is the attitude displayed by some of the English team throughout their truncated stay in New Zealand. I couldnt have written a better example.

Of course, you being whiter than white are fully qualified to comment aren't you. And don't be counting your chickens sonny, Wales might well be in a S/F but its rareified air they're breathing and it wouldn't at all be unsuprising if their stay is cut a little shorter than they would want on Saturday.

Bitter Beer wrote:Don't be counting your chickens sonny, Wales might well be in a S/F but its rareified air they're breathing and it wouldn't at all be unsuprising if their stay is cut a little shorter than they would want on Saturday.

Well there's no doubting who you want to win the Wales v France match, is there?

Bitter indeed!

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Bitter Beer wrote:Don't be counting your chickens sonny, Wales might well be in a S/F but its rareified air they're breathing and it wouldn't at all be unsuprising if their stay is cut a little shorter than they would want on Saturday.

Well there's no doubting who you want to win the Wales v France match, is there?

Bitter indeed!

If Wales lose then we still have another match and an opportunity to equal our previous best result at a world cup.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Bitter Beer wrote:Don't be counting your chickens sonny, Wales might well be in a S/F but its rareified air they're breathing and it wouldn't at all be unsuprising if their stay is cut a little shorter than they would want on Saturday.

Well there's no doubting who you want to win the Wales v France match, is there?

Bitter indeed!

if you are making that assertion after the French performance v England it might be you who is on the rarified air! Wales are in a totally different league to England and won't make france look as good as the hapless English. Of course their stay might be cut shorter but at least they got to the semi.

Please don't reply with a sonny sort of tone it is very embarassing for you.

No, i'm not making the assumption based on that one match. Wales have shown that they have improved and have played well in this tournament, but it will be tougher than you seem to be suggesting to beat France on Saturday and despite what has happened in this tournament so far, the 6N tables since 2008 and the IRB World Rankings would suggest that the teams are very much in the same league, with Wales below England as it happens. Could change, might change. Doubt it.

Bitter Beer wrote:The 6N tables since 2008 and the IRB World Rankings would suggest that the teams are very much in the same league, with Wales below England as it happens. Could change, might change. Doubt it.

Presuming you a including England in this argument because they were Frances last opponents? So you may be surprised to know that actually Wales are ahead of England in the six nations tables over the last four years we have won more games than England and lost less too...

Wales are also higher in the IRB rankings.

We are behind France who have done the best out of the NH teams in the six nations.

Bitter Beer wrote:No, i'm not making the assumption based on that one match. Wales have shown that they have improved and have played well in this tournament, but it will be tougher than you seem to be suggesting to beat France on Saturday and despite what has happened in this tournament so far, the 6N tables since 2008 and the IRB World Rankings would suggest that the teams are very much in the same league, with Wales below England as it happens. Could change, might change. Doubt it.

mmmm, using the irb rankings and 6ns as any sort of RWC benchmark is pretty naive. NZ have been top of IRB rankings on and off for years and haven't won many RWCs, as for the 6Ns, I believe Eng won that this year and we just beat them. Not much more one can say on that as a predictor of success at RWC!

Must admit most of this goes over my head because I stopped reading the papers some years ago. Every now and again I follow someone's link to a story, but that's about it.

Journos come in two varieties: heros and muckraking scumbags. There are a lot more scumbags. For example, I'd call Orla Guerin or John Simpson a hero, and anyone who works for Murdoch a scumbag. Perhaps those working at the Times aren't that badly tainted, but I really don't know.

Aaanyway, I blame the RFU Board over the last decade for the current state of English Rugby. Just compare with English Cricket over the same period to see what a difference a competent Board makes!

The behaviour of some of the players was dumb and a bit embarrassing. The reaction of the Press just confirmed my low opinion of the bulk of it.

So hey ho, come on Wales! We can't do it now, and the boyos are playing a beautiful game at present.

Bitter Beer, I agree that it'll take a huge effort for us to beat France. Despite how (relatively) poorly they played in the group stages, you'd be a fool to look at the personnel they have and conclude that we'll have it easy against them.

maestegmafia wrote:

Bitter Beer wrote:The 6N tables since 2008 and the IRB World Rankings would suggest that the teams are very much in the same league, with Wales below England as it happens. Could change, might change. Doubt it.

Presuming you a including England in this argument because they were Frances last opponents? So you may be surprised to know that actually Wales are ahead of England in the six nations tables over the last four years we have won more games than England and lost less too...

Wales are also higher in the IRB rankings.

We are behind France who have done the best out of the NH teams in the six nations.

Rather ironic considering the title of this article is 'Don't Believe The hype'....

Awww Bitter losing to a poor french side in the quarters has clearly been a desperate loss for you.

Look theres stages man, it will pass. Your still in the angry disbelieving stage, go to the pub, talk to your mates, have a few beers soon youll be at the acceptence stage. What is just an annoying whisper in the back of your mind now will be vocalised, but will no longer cause you pain. Dont bottle it up, it will only gnaw away at you. Shout it out so the World can hear you and the healing process can start, "Wales are better than England" once youve done that you'll feel better.

Dont worry soon the RFU and the clubs will figure out who is going to be the new chairman. Sombody will find out what exactly Rob Andrew has done for all these years, although they are almost certain to find a knife marked Ashton somewhere in his office. They will find a decent coach who will impose discipline on your arrogant underachievers, maybe Dai Young hes working in London now. You might even find an inside centre who can pass the ball, Theres a good young lad in the Tongan u16 who can qualify for England in four years time if he can get into a good English school .

Then in four years time your team can see if they can take the title off your neighbours. Dont worry we will be waiting

Although with Moodys book coming out in November apparently being highly critical of the current regime, maybe some more wailing and hairpulling is all you have to look forward to.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Awww Bitter losing to a poor french side in the quarters has clearly been a desperate loss for you.

Look theres stages man, it will pass. Your still in the angry disbelieving stage, go to the pub, talk to your mates, have a few beers soon youll be at the acceptence stage. What is just an annoying whisper in the back of your mind now will be vocalised, but will no longer cause you pain. Dont bottle it up, it will only gnaw away at you. Shout it out so the World can hear you and the healing process can start, "Wales are better than England" once youve done that you'll feel better.

Dont worry soon the RFU and the clubs will figure out who is going to be the new chairman. Sombody will find out what exactly Rob Andrew has done for all these years, although they are almost certain to find a knife marked Ashton somewhere in his office. They will find a decent coach who will impose discipline on your arrogant underachievers, maybe Dai Young hes working in London now. You might even find an inside centre who can pass the ball, Theres a good young lad in the Tongan u16 who can qualify for England in four years time if he can get into a good English school .

Then in four years time your team can see if they can take the title off your neighbours. Dont worry we will be waiting

Tycroes, after the years we've had of some English posters mocking and belittling us for our underachievement relative to England, you should know better than to write this sort of rubbish.

Although with Moodys book coming out in November apparently being highly critical of the current regime, maybe some more wailing and hairpulling is all you have to look forward to.

Tycroes, after all the years of some English posters mocking and belittling Wales for our underachievement relative to England, you should know better than to write that kind of rubbish.

Absolutely pathetic attempt at a wind up. Wales reach a SF and all of a sudden they've won the cup in advance, stopped all wars and erradicated 3rd World famine.

Luckless Im sorry I just couldnt resist, I will try to be nice from now on.

Bitter Beer wrote:Absolutely pathetic attempt at a wind up. Wales reach a SF and all of a sudden they've won the cup in advance, stopped all wars and erradicated 3rd World famine.

We couldn't sort out your midfield though, awfully sorry, some things are just not possible

Hilarious. For an encore, could you possibly kill yourself?

There was just no need for it, Tycroes. Why can't you be happy that Wales are doing well without mocking the (relative) failure of others?

Bitter Beer wrote:Hilarious. For an encore, could you possibly kill yourself?

Listen beer, you don't joke about sh1t like that, especially when complaining someone else is out of order. Idiot

I commented the other day that the English players are now realising that they are news worthy much like Phillips and Powell have done in recent months.

BUT as we all know good news stories don't sell so the gutter trash are not interested in them and look for the scandals.

Rugby players drinking on tour is hardly a scandal and like most on here if they people knew what went on on real tours god help us all.

The good stories about visiting schools or stopping to chat/sigh autographs with fans (how many round ballers do it) hardly gets a mention.

Hard lesson but a lesson none the less.

Fine, I retract the statement. However, you'd all do a lot better if you followed the example of your team's captain, who isn't saying anything, on account of the team hasn't won anything yet.

Ah its alright Gatts Im in a farily whimsical mood hence my WUM. However I do think I am entitled to a little bit of friendly banter luckless espescially when my posts in this thread have been attacked non stop ok

The sad fact is that yes, the press had a field day, but WHO gave it to them on a plate? No matter who you are or what country you represent you should be savvy enough to realise that it comes with the territory and you shouldn't give them a reason to have a go.