Leinster Hype?

So, do we believe it or not? Alot of talk about them being the best Heiniken Cup side ever and even being right up there with the best Southern Hemisphere clubs. I have also read that they would be able to match international sides. Are people getting carried away? I thought Ulster were very dissapointing. Clermont would have beaten them comfortably.

But can we forget about the other great Heiniken Cup teams? Leicester? Wasps? Toulouse? Leinster are having their moment now but Im not so sure they beat those previous great teams.....

What do you mean by "clermont Would have beaten them confortably"?

You may be disappointed by Ulsters performance yesterday but you can't take away the fact that they thumped Leceister at Ravenhill, beat Clermont at home and almost beat them away as well. Also they beat a very good Munster side away.
I personally don't think Clermont could have beaten Leinster yesterday, they were like a team possessed.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:What do you mean by "clermont Would have beaten them confortably"?

What I mean is that had Clermont beaten Leinster as they came very close to, I think they would have beaten Ulster comfortably in the final. I think Ulster were very poor.

Gordy wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:What do you mean by "clermont Would have beaten them confortably"?

What I mean is that had Clermont beaten Leinster as they came very close to, I think they would have beaten Ulster comfortably in the final. I think Ulster were very poor.

Ulster were poor yesterday or they are generally poor? I presume you mean the former, in which case you might argue a number of teams might have beaten them yesterday.

As ever these games come down to small decisions and moments in a match. Jackson's request to the ref whether he could kick direct to touch and thinking he received a yes did so, and it ended up in a try at a critical point in the match. Terblanches yellow card.

Another match, another day, another opponent, things might have ended up different.

Ulster fought their way to the final against the opposition put in front of them.

Ditto Leinster.

The assertion that their victory puts them ahead of any other to date in the competition is one led by various pundits in English, Irish and Scottish media that I've read. And there's been a few complimentary comments down south too. A lot of it is the usual hyperbole in the aftermath of a match. O'Driscoll probably put it best when he talked about them creating a dynasty - they haven't finished yet to really make their lasting mark in the game. Whether that will happen, only time will tell. So far, it ain't a bad start.

Of course there'll be hype, some of it warranted some of it fanciful. Some of their achievements off the top of my head

2nd team to ever win the HC with an unbeaten run, matching Brive in '97
2nd team to ever win back to back titles, matching Tigers in '02
2nd team to win an away semi final in France after Munster
1st team to win 3 titles in 4 years
Biggest winning margin in a HC final ever.
1st Irish province to win all the PRO12 Irish derbies home and away.
Topped the PRO12 by 10 points.
1 game away from winning a domestic European/double.

I think they are the best domestic European team of the pro era. They've played the best rugby and done it consistently over 4 years. Their winners medals prove it.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Of course there'll be hype, some of it warranted some of it fanciful. Some of their achievements off the top of my head

2nd team to ever win the HC with an unbeaten run, matching Brive in '97
2nd team to ever win back to back titles, matching Tigers in '02
2nd team to win an away semi final in France after Munster
1st team to win 3 titles in 4 years
Biggest winning margin in a HC final ever.
1st Irish province to win all the PRO12 Irish derbies home and away.
Topped the PRO12 by 10 points.
1 game away from winning a domestic European/double.

I think they are the best domestic European team of the pro era. They've played the best rugby and done it consistently over 4 years. Their winners medals prove it.

I agree.

Don't forget that they've only lost one away game this season. That's surely a record.

There's always goign to be a bit of hype but this team deserves it by and large. For the reasons Feckless lists alone. All this comparisons with international sides is pointless though.

Ulster were disappointing. I thought they had a real chance of beating Leinster. Maybe this was one game too many? They were outstanding in earlier stages.

Gordy wrote:But can we forget about the other great Heiniken Cup teams? Leicester? Wasps? Toulouse? Leinster are having their moment now but Im not so sure they beat those previous great teams.....

Leinster's achievements outweigh anything achieved by multiple winners tigers, Wasps and Munster. For me Toulouse are just ahead as they have done it over a greater period (and one more win) and have won European and Domestic honours in the same season. Leinster I am sure will hope to match that next weekend.

Can't argue with that really. We need to win the Rabo to really stamp our mark.

Any tips on how to convince our star NIQs to choose their club over their country?

Gordy wrote:So, do we believe it or not? Alot of talk about them being the best Heiniken Cup side ever and even being right up there with the best Southern Hemisphere clubs.
I have also read that they would be able to match international sides. Are people getting carried away? I thought Ulster were very dissapointing. Clermont would have beaten them comfortably.

But can we forget about the other great Heiniken Cup teams? Leicester? Wasps? Toulouse? Leinster are having their moment now but Im not so sure they beat those previous great teams.....

Highlight One: Right up there with the best SH clubs.
Proving they aren't as good as the best SH sides would mean they play the best SH club. That isn't on the agenda at present so for now neither Leinster nor the SH clubs can claim primacy. You seem to be from the school of if it's from the SH it doesn't need to prove it's better, it just is by default.

Highlight Two: Matching International sides.
Well, they'd beat Italy and they'd beat Ireland...! ...and probably Canada, Japan and a good few other International sides. Some would even say they'd have a real crack at France, England and Wales. They certainly wouldn't get destroyed on the scoreboard by any of those sides... so it'd be competitive at least. International sides don't always mean the top two or three International sides.

Highlight Three: Clermont would have beaten them [Ulster] comfortably.
And that's all you can do when you're a great side - beat the opposition comfortably. And that's what Leinster did. Biggest score and biggest margin in HC final history - can you do anything more than comfortably beat an opponent?

Highlight Four: are we forgetting other great Heineken Cup teams.
Ah, so you admit Leinster are a great side but fail to mention Munster when you mention Wasps. Munster have a better record than Wasps - just to keep you on message about forgetting 'greatness' and making sure the right teams are on the right lists.

Highlight Five: Beating or not beating previous European great sides.
You also forget that when the Heineken Cup was in its infancy, professionalism was also only starting out - and French and English clubs had a head start on that one. The teams from other nations were just cannon fodder in those days and didn't exactly toughen the job of winning Heineken Cups. You might argue that earlier winning streaks were easier winning streaks as to all intents and purposes it was professionals against virtual amateurs. This is a new world - better rugby, tougher conditions, fast game, more stringent reffing, all teams filled with seasoned professionals. Today's HC world is a much tougher place to operate in and be successful in. It's not that the French and English sides have hit bad luck or gone down in quality, it's simply that they are now meeting sides that have risen to meet and exceed their levels. They now meet equals - yes, this Leinster side would have blown a good few of those previous champions off the field playing the rugby they play now against the standards of then.

+1 to you Fly for an excellent dissection of that post. Some very silly posts from some people since Saturday regarding Leinster. They are, without doubt, and by a considerable distance, the best club/provincial/regional team in the northern hemisphere. Just to put some other comments in context, the undeserving Ulster beat Leicester by 41-7 in this competition. At worst they are the second best England has to offer and Ulster beat them 41-7. England's other playoff finalist were beaten by Ireland's fourth best province, a fancy way of saying worst province in this seasons competition.

We (Ulster) were humbled in the final yesterday, but to say we didn't deserve to be there is just plain idiotic. Clermont, the supposed white knights according to people on this board, the only team who could have given Leinster a run for their money, were beaten by another team this campaign. That's right, Ulster, a team that so many are saying weren't worthy of a place in the final beat Clermont 16-11 at Ravenhill and, with a little more conviction and accuracy, would have beaten them away. We lost that day 19-15 when we should have won.

This Leinster side are better than Wasps, better than Leicester and better than Munster in this competition. The facts simply speak for themselves. I think they still will need to win next season to be better than Toulouse who were a truly magnificent team, but Leinster are not very far behind.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:+1 to you Fly for an excellent dissection of that post. Some very silly posts from some people since Saturday regarding Leinster. They are, without doubt, and by a considerable distance, the best club/provincial/regional team in the northern hemisphere. Just to put some other comments in context, the undeserving Ulster beat Leicester by 41-7 in this competition. At worst they are the second best England has to offer and Ulster beat them 41-7. England's other playoff finalist were beaten by Ireland's fourth best province, a fancy way of saying worst province in this seasons competition.

We (Ulster) were humbled in the final yesterday, but to say we didn't deserve to be there is just plain idiotic. Clermont, the supposed white knights according to people on this board, the only team who could have given Leinster a run for their money, were beaten by another team this campaign. That's right, Ulster, a team that so many are saying weren't worthy of a place in the final beat Clermont 16-11 at Ravenhill and, with a little more conviction and accuracy, would have beaten them away. We lost that day 19-15 when we should have won.

This Leinster side are better than Wasps, better than Leicester and better than Munster in this competition. The facts simply speak for themselves. I think they still will need to win next season to be better than Toulouse who were a truly magnificent team, but Leinster are not very far behind.

I agree Hookisms. I still regard Toulouse as The Great European club. One more HC for Leinster and they then truly become the greatest European side of all time... but there are so many variables that I won't even think about that record yet. Toulouse could push themselves into five times champions next season, Leicester could make it three to sit up with Leinster and Ulster could go one better than runners-up next year. As O'Brien said after the game...it'll all start at the beginning again next year when every side will want to win that first game and everything will be back to square one.

As an Ulster fan - we put 35 points on Tigers, beat Clermont and were a whisker away from beating them on French soil, inflicted Munster first loss at Thomond Park in the knockout stages of the HC including a 19-0 lead at one stage, handily put away Edinburgh even with a 7 pointer after 80 minutes, and were creating some serious momentum going into the final.

Result?

Didn't come close to matching Leinster on any level except goal kicking courtesy of Pienaar - for me this Leinster team is the greatest club/provincial/regional team Europe has ever seen, at least since the start of professionalism.

I think its difficult to say if Leinster are the greatest HC team ever. They have done amazingly well in the last 4 years are they deserve all the plaudits they get.

I for one believe if they were to go head to head with the winners of the S15 that they would stand a decent chance of winning at a neutral venue. How would they rank amongst the Stormers, Bulls or Crusaders???

Well their backs wouldn't have the same amount of freedom as they have got this year. Defensively the S15 is much stronger overall and the packs of the above 3 are pretty fearsome... a fully fit stormers pack weighs in at near 940kg and have won 10 out of 11 matches this season on the back of a brutal defence. When you think that Burger at 6'4 & 112kg is the smallest of the back 5 in that pack you realise what a task it would be for any side.

In terms of the best side ever... would this side have beaten the Toulouse side of 05 or the Leicester side of 02 if you take out the changes in the game since then?

One thing not in their favour is that European rugby was probably at its peak between 2000-2005 in terms of competing with the SH.

The pack of Leicester was outstanding for the times... Rowntree, West, Garforth, Kay, Johnson, Moody, Back, Corry.... 6 of those players went on to win RWC winners medals the year later. Thats as good a club pack at you will find in world rugby and one which for a short period will have dominated the record breaking Crusaders team.

The 03-05 Toulouse side was also a very strong one. They again had a very strong pack but had a backline to dream.

Personally I would say that those 2 sides would be slightly above this Leinster side.

The reasons???

Leicester's pack was truly world class and would have dominated any club or test side in world rugby but even they probably rank lower than the Toulouse side of a few years later. Their pack would have competed with the Leicester 02 side but the backs of Ellisade, Michelak, Clerc, Jauzion & Fritz et al would have seen them through in my opinion.

Perhaps Leinster are the best club side in the world at this moment... they certainly would have won at least 1 SR title over the last few years (probably last year).
However the competitiveness of the HC in 00-05 was far greater IMO; this Leinster side probably holds 8 first choice IRE players...that Leicester side probably only had 3-4 which shows the relative strength of the ENG game at the time esp. given ENG were the world's best at the time whilst IRE currently float between 4th-7th...(little diff between ENG, FRA, WAL & IRE currently).
Those mentioned sides weren't national franchises like Leinster, Munster, my Stormers etc are and ENG & FRA competed and were dominant over near all sides during their successful periods which makes me believe they were of a slightly better vintage.

Didn't Leinster lose home and away to the Ospreys?

In what?
Oh the Pro12?

We forgot about that competition (as our detractors often accuse us of when it suits them) but we'll promise to be thinking about it next week. Scouts honour

I'm hoping the Guiness will still be flowing through the week to make your guys groggy next weekend

Fair doo's they did play very well yesterday though

Huwball wrote:I'm hoping the Guiness will still be flowing through the week to make your guys groggy next weekend

Fair doo's they did play very well yesterday though

No it should be a bloody good game but I have a feeling I'm not going to be enjoying it as much. Ospreys I respect a great deal. They have the firepower to hurt Leinster if there is any hangover from the HC. And even if there isn't, it's still a side that can certainly take Leinster if they play fully to their potential. It'll come down to how much each side wants it and how much they are prepared to risk (given the important tours coming up) to get it. Could be a real humdinger of a game

Leinster want the double badly...it was mentioned by all the players yesterday after the game...tough luck Ospreys.

Huwball wrote:Didn't Leinster lose home and away to the Ospreys?

Yep - they did. So that makes Ospreys the real European champions. Obvious innit?

Maths logic does state that

If A > B & B > C then A is > C. So the answer is Yes.

Then again my Scotland beat England at Wembley in 1967 which means we became the world champions that day???

If A>B & B>C & C>A then C>B and B>A and all logic ceases to be.

Example: Wales>Ireland, Ireland>Australia, Australia>Wales then Australia>Ireland and Ireland>Wales. It's all true.

This specific Leinster side has to be deemed as the greatest SIDE in HC history. Toulouse are still the no.1 club but remember their victories have stretched from 1996 to 2010 - that isn't the same side. Leinster were also unlucky in that 2010 year being put away in France in the semis. Regardless of whether they were fortunate against Clermont in the semis, at a neutral venue Leinster would probably beat Clermont quite comfortably. There is hype floating around, but I think most of it is justified.

I think its a bit churlish not to give this Leinster side the credit due. Three in four years is a fantastic achievement. They have dominated in recent years and are up there with the best Europe has produced in the pro era. Any comparison with the SH is hypothetical and pointless.

It's also disappointing to read some English press this morning to find the HC story dominated by English and French calls to debate the criteria again. Sour grapes timing I fancy.....

They have dominated in recent years and are up there with the best Europe has produced in the pro era

The best...

English and French calls to debate the criteria again. Sour grapes timing I fancy.....

Yes. It's very unbecoming.. rather entertaining though..

Massive kudos to Leinster for what they've achieved in the past 4 yrs. All the talk of beating other countries is BS. Usually spouted by the non supporters They are the team top beat and will probably be up there for the next few years if not more. I fear for the Ospreys next Sun. We may have had 2 weeks rest and prep, but this Leinster side.......

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/10007.php

Focus has already switched to Sundays game.

There is a definite difference in how champions are viewed in the SH and NH.

When the Bulls won their three titles in 4 years there was no questioning of are they the best team in the SH, I suppose three titles in 4 years was not to be questioned.

The Crusaders with their 7 titles have also never been doubted as the top Super rugby Franchise.

It seems things work differently in the north.

As a Munsterman, this hurts to say but Leinster are clearly the best club/provincial side in the NH, have been for a few years and will be for a few more.

Ulster, what can i say other than fully deserved of their place in the final. Played some brilliant rugby these last two seasons and are getting stronger.

I think the question here being asked is whether this Leinster side is the best in HC history.... I can't see how anyone would doubt they are currently the best side in Europe however.

The Crusader, well they're so far in front its difficult to argue otherwise but in the NH the HC has been more competitive.

Toulouse 4
Leinster 3
Munster 2
Leicester 2
Wasps 2

Given thats the question on which is the best side is subjective.

In terms of whether this is the best side ever I'm not so sure. I think that the Toulouse side of 03-05 & the Leicester side of 01-02 would beat this current Leinster team (taking out developments/changes in the game etc).

I also think the competition was a lot stronger in those days in terms of quality of competition.

That doesn't mean that this Leinster side is poor.... far from it, they are a very good side, the best in Europe and perhaps, just perhaps the best club side in the world.

I think the fact that the year they didn't win it they lost in france to eventual winners in the semi's which I think says it all.

Munster only got to the quarters in their middle year and got schooled in wales.

I also think when you talk about teams it is players and not club/region so Toulous are the top Club/Region in NH but the current Leinster team is the best team closly followed by tigers of 2002 which munster of 2002 ran close

fa0019. I cant see the Leicester side of 01-02 beating this Leinster side to be honest. The strong Wasps and Munster sides would have pushed them but i think that Leinster would have enough to beat them both. The Toulouse side of 03-05, thats a different story and i cant see anything between the both.

Personally i feel that Toulouse have been the best club/provincial side in the professional era but Leinster are well on their way to eclipsing them.

eirebilly

That Leicester pack was superb. Look at who played in the 02 final

Rowntree, West, Garforth, Kay, Johnson, Moody, Back, Corry.... 6 of those players went on to win the RWC the next year and 7 of those were British Lions (of which 6 were capped). I don't think you will find a better club pack in NH professional history.

Recalling those days, they were just brutal and would certainly have the number on this Leinster pack... their backs, probably not as good but overall I think they would edge it... but only just.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a poor side, in years to come people will look back and say it was one of the best.

Rowntree, West, Garforth, Kay, Johnson, Moody, Back, Corry.... 6 of those players went on to win the RWC the next year and 7 of those were British Lions (of which 6 were capped). I don't think you will find a better club pack in NH professional history.

Yes, but did they ever do 3 cups in 4 years? No? OK, carry on.... nothing to see here....

Yes, Leicester had a very good pack, possibly one of the best there was but i still cant see their team as a whole competing with this Leinster team on a whole. Its the same reason that as a Munster fan, i cant see the Munster team back then beating this Leinster team now.

....dont get me wrong. The Tigers back then weren't a poor side, just not up to this current Leinster's abilities...

fa0019 wrote:eirebilly

That Leicester pack was superb. Look at who played in the 02 final

Rowntree, West, Garforth, Kay, Johnson, Moody, Back, Corry.... 6 of those players went on to win the RWC the next year and 7 of those were British Lions (of which 6 were capped). I don't think you will find a better club pack in NH professional history.

Recalling those days, they were just brutal and would certainly have the number on this Leinster pack... their backs, probably not as good but overall I think they would edge it... but only just.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a poor side, in years to come people will look back and say it was one of the best.

The point remains... in 02 the Leicester pack was rumbling through some pretty dubious excuses for professional teams and professional players. Professionalism hadn't really worked into all areas of European rugby. In short, it's easy looking ultra professional when playing against players who aren't up to speed.

Leinster of today exist in a much tougher world. English clubs are stuffed with modern professionals (many of them coming in from abroad and from heavy hitting SH regions), France too are still stuffed with modern professionals (many great players from around the world adding to the mix) and Ireland, Scotland and Wales are also now stuffed with professional players (aided and abetted by their own foreigners). So... no, you can't say Leicester of the 02 period had a tougher environment and therefore proved themselves the toughest side. They were at the beginning of professionalism and they hit the ground running quicker than others.

Now that the playing field is more level across Europe, it truly is an achievement to find the consistency of purpose that Leinster have found. They've had it easy at times and they've had it ultra tough. You can't put Leinster's achievements down to luck, it's been much too diverse, the heads have changed, the challengers have changed, the games have been meat grinders at times against the very best that Europe can throw at them, and they've still amassed their tally in something that amounts to cruise-control speed.

SecretFly

That is true but you also have to say that the Leicester team of 01 had to overcome probably the hardest final of any team so far. To beat that Stade Français team in the Stade de France is right up there.

Leinster have racked up quite a list of achievements this year but one I haven’t seen mentioned is that they only conceded 1 try in the knockout stages. Surely a record for a winning team…?

We need Gibbo here to bring some unbiased perspective to this discussion

I'm being very open minded, billy! But yeah, that's because I'm very happy So no, my opinion doesn't count.

I know you are Fly, i am just waiting for a 2am post from Gibbo on this discussion. He is always fair and unbiased in his views on Leinsters standing in the game

I think the Leinster side is as strong as you'll find in the world today....

In terms of achievement 3 in 4 years is better than anyone

however taking changes in the game.. do you honestly think this Leinster pack would survive against either the Leicester pack of 01-02 or the Toulouse pack of 03-05.

Yes the game has changed... but the players of yesteryear would have changed with it.
Of course, this Wales 2012 GS team would run rings around the 1970s Wales side due to physicality, knowledge of the game etc all advancing... but few if any would say this Wales side is their 'Greatest' ever.

I'm not saying the Leicester pack is the best club pack of all time, but IMO the best winning pack who played together in the HC. They had hardly any weaknesses and were near the best in every position. I still think the Toulouse side of 03-05 would have beaten them however as they had a very good overall mix of forwards & backs.. and that was one area which the Toulouse, Leinster and other winning HC sides would have an edge on leicester.

I'm not a Leicester fan, nor an ENG fan but like others I am a fan of the sport... its just an honest opinion.

That’s fair enough, it’s your opinion so it can’t be wrong. But I would counter your logic with the question, why were the Leicester and Toulouse packs only that good for 2 years? Leinster humped Toulouse away from home in 2006 and we had such luminaries as Cameron Jowitt and Will Green in our pack.

Not sure if this Leinster side is the greatest HC side ever but it's certainly up there.

Very strong side. Leinster deserve the limelight - the way they demolished Ulster was classy.

They just seem to have this ability to go up another gear when they need to.

it is hard when comparing teams of ten years ago.

in that respect we cant say they are the greatest team.

Perhaps the best thing to say is the Leinster team of 09-12 is the most successful team.

Toulouse the most successful club.

(if that makes sense)