Post MATCH discussion THREAD - Wales vs France

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

Well played France a deserved winner... great effort by Wales but silly mistakes cost us a better result...

Good luck to Australia and New Zealand tomorrow

[mckay1402]

Notch

it shouldn't have been a question. Any contraversial decision is going to be in question. Having said that it was still in Wales hands to win it and they missed too many kicks. shame but that's rugby. The better team doesn't always win

[Gatts]

Rolland is a difficult call, Wales would of known before the game that being half French and with his record he will tend to lean a bit towards them, he sent off the Namibian playing in the last world cup for a arm across the shoulder of a French player in the 19th minute. So to see a marginal call like that going against Wales is no suprise, Warbuton made a bad decision and put pressure on Wales but he didn't cause us to lose. Regardless though Wales should not of put themselves in that position and this is dissappointing.

Wales still aren't out of this World Cup, we have another game to play, but we can no longer win it. We have been very brave and our boys have given us everything, lets not hammer them for trying their best.
They have done far more than we could of dreamed of before the tournament well done lads were very proud of you.

disappointing?

i bet you wear slippers and a cardigan

[Portnoy]

Tough on Wales.

Can't see many Christmas cards winging their way from Wales to Mr Rolland this this year.

[Dave.]

Why didn't Wales kick a DG at the end there? 20 phases and no-one drops into the pocket. They did not need a try.

[Mad for Chelsea]

As a French fan, I was incredibly disappointed with their efforts today. No imagination, just kicked the ball away all day, and really shouldn't have won, but Wales weren't good enough to capitalise. Yes they were down to 14 men but with France playing that badly should really have won the game. Those missed kicks cost them dear, as did the lack of clear decision making at the end...

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Lets not forget that Wales only got out the group because of the IRB racism against samoa

[robbo277]

Well done France. Deserved victory. Hope they meet Aus in the final.

how deserved?

If we want to get technical by scoring more points than Wales, but France did very little else. Still, it's enough.

[offload]

Lets not make Allan Rolland the subject of the post match discussion. He wasn't, Wales could have won the match without that decision but they didn't. France were great and they deserved this narrow win.

Sorry Maesteg, I agree about Rolland, but don't try and tell this French side were great????

They are the worst team to ever make a final.

[Gatts]

Well done France. Deserved victory. Hope they meet Aus in the final.

how deserved?

Ignore him he is a pathetic troll trying to get a rise out of you.

Be Welsh proud and ignore the obvious statements that will come from people like him...

Well done Wales and well done France.

We are all upset, but no one can change what happened


Wales gave so much to this rugby world cup, lets focus on the positives

It will make or break us. I only hope that they come back like men possessed

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

I'm with Alyn on this, I think it was a shocking decision. Wales may have missed their kicks but playing 60 minutes with 14 men is almost impossible to compete and win a match with. Awful decision and Rolland should be reviewed, it was a penalty and maybe a yellow. A red is just ridiculous.

Mate, no way was that "maybe a yellow".

[Notch]

Well done France. Deserved victory. Hope they meet Aus in the final.

how deserved?

Well, Frances goal-kicking stats were higher. They scored more points. And they kept their discipline much better.

In a World Cup semi-final you need to take your kicks at goal (James Hook), you need to keep your discipline (Sam Warburton) and you need to be able to engineer those drop goal opportunities (Phillips and Jones).

Wales were unlucky. But let's not try and rewrite history and say they deserved it. They made too many errors; the red card, the missed kicks. It all adds up.

I felt for them today, but- thats sport you know? Thats life.

[Guest]

What a boring final its going to be, France barely scrape past a 14 man Welsh side, Aus or NZ will put 50 points on them

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Why didn't Wales kick a DG at the end there? 20 phases and no-one drops into the pocket. They did not need a try.

Too far out, how mant DGs got missed in that game?

They were playing patience to draw the penalty ( easier) or get the field position for a more realistic kick

In the end they screwed up, its always the risk....but they played the percentages and lost because the French defended better than they had all game and kept their heads. About the only thing I can praise them for.

[dubh_linn]

Bad luck wales....so close...gutsy performance against the odds....jones not taking a drop ten minutes from end may have been the critical point...roland normally a good ref was cr@p today..

[PJHolybloke]

Thank you Wales for lighting up the World Cup and carrying the torch for NH rugby, for all the Welsh fans on here your team have done you proud and there have already been some very gracious comments regarding France and Rolland's performance.

Now go out there and get that third place.

I will go to my grave believing 100% that was never worthy of a red card, regardless of it being a WC semi-final.

[Cymroglan]

World cup semi Final against one of the top sides in Europe losing by one point playing with fourteen men for the majority of the match.

Bloody magnificent effort very few sides could have done it.

[robbo277]

Piennar and co are really starting to annoy me now

Agreed.

I can't stand this "It's the World Cup semi-final..." argument. If Rolland thinks it's a red, it's a red, be it a World Cup semi-final or otherwise.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

World cup semi Final against one of the top sides in Europe losing by one point playing with fourteen men for the majority of the match.

Bloody magnificent effort very few sides could have done it.

yeah Englnd wouldve won

[Standulstermen]

The ITV pundits were incredibly poor but in fairness to Pienaar he is the only one who i think has said anything coherent throughout the whole tournament.

This 'semi final/game spectacle' nonsense is just that. They moan when the refs dont interpret as they and then when one makes a decision totally in accordance with the guidelines and they go nuts. Refs cant win.

I thought Gatland spoke quite poorly. Saying the game was taken out of their control not only flies in the face of the game itself but also cheapens the effort of the 14 men. we must realise we can laud the Welsh performance without having a go at the Ref.

Come on you Welshists. Raise yourself and have another beer. You deserve to celebrate a great world cup.

[welshy824]

havent been on for a while, but i need to let out my rage. i know wales didnt take their chances and yes they should have done but that red card was a disgrace i have never in all my years ever seen someone at international red carded and i have seen much worse challenges, rowland is a disgrace and i think it just neutralised our work at the breakdown.

i am gutted but wales well played over 60 mins with 14 men and france never looked like scoring, lets beat the aussies for 3rd place. CYMRU AM BYTH!

[Gatts]

By my calcs we missed 14 points off the boot. Lost Priestland, Jones and Warbs. Bit of a non event. but what a foundation.

[Guest]

Well done France. Deserved victory. Hope they meet Aus in the final.

how deserved?

Scored more points. They also didn't commit any borderline spear tackles.

Wales had plenty of the rub of the green with ref decisions.

It was well deserved although Wales were quite plucky and didn't get blown away.

[Cymroglan]

PJ worse tackles have gone unpunished what we need is consistency from refs.
It was a poor tackle that deserved a card but in this case I think a yellow would have been justified.

[Gatts]

havent been on for a while, but i need to let out my rage. i know wales didnt take their chances and yes they should have done but that red card was a disgrace i have never in all my years ever seen someone at international red carded and i have seen much worse challenges, rowland is a disgrace and i think it just neutralised our work at the breakdown.

i am gutted but wales well played over 60 mins with 14 men and france never looked like scoring, lets beat the aussies for 3rd place. CYMRU AM BYTH!

think it will be abs and wouldn't that be a ding dong battle

[Notch]

Piennar and co are really starting to annoy me now

Agreed.

I can't stand this "It's the World Cup semi-final..." argument. If Rolland thinks it's a red, it's a red, be it a World Cup semi-final or otherwise.

AND, the fact no-one on ITV has mentioned the actual rules. You know the one about spear tackles being dangerous play. That's a good one. And how about the one where international referees were asked to punish any tackle where the player was driven into the ground or dropped without due care with a straight red card? That's good one too.

But why would the ITV bandwagon want to introduce a speed bump in terms of the 'rules of the game'. Yeah, no need for that

[rodders]

I have to say France have been the worst out of the 6N teams bar Scotland. Even Italy offered more in this RWC.

It is amazing that they are in the final.

Wales should be proud of their tounamnet and there is still 3rd place up for grabs.

They absolutely butchered 2 drop goal opportuntities and that is why they lost as well as the missed place kicks.

The Warburton red card was spot on and any one who thinks otherwise needs to read the amended rules.

If you lift a player off the ground and drop him and he lands on his upper body it is a straight red. There is a zero tolerance policy.

[BlueNote]

I am struggling to see how you'd red card him for that. I thought that other than that Rolland had a good game!

Wales lost it through old failings - lineout, and headless chicken rugby at times, and I wish they'd given the first couple of penalties to 1/2p rather than Hook.

Thought France defended well, but were pretty average otherwise. I can't see them troubling NZ or Aus.

[Rory_Gallagher]

I know for a fact Rodders had it been an irish player making that tackle, all us irish fans would be calling for the refs head had we been in the semi-final. It is not a straight red under any circumstance. Many players this tournament have been taken out in the air which is much more dangerous and that is not a "straight red" offence either.

[Cymroglan]

roddersm I bet that there are several similar tackles in this world cup that did not even receive a yellow card.
We need refs to use the red card all the time not just when they feel like it.

[manofgwent]

What an effort. So proud. France were again hanging on.
Well done boys. You did us proud. 6 nations is ours!

[Guest]

If you lift a player off the ground and drop him and he lands on his upper body it is a straight red. There is a zero tolerance policy.

Exactly. Just because Warburton didn't drive him into the ground it doesn't mean he didn't deserve the red. Silly boy. He's going to be feeling dreadful.

[Standulstermen]

roddersm I bet that there are several similar tackles in this world cup that did not even receive a yellow card.
We need refs to use the red card all the time not just when they feel like it.

Thats a very fair point. Only thing i would say is that Rolland cant be responsible for the decisions of other refs. He applied the rules. Dont go down the Samoa/SA route Wales please!!!

[John Cregan]

As an Irishman, i am gutted for wales........i really hope France get what they deserve ion the final, a thumping....................they personify a lot of what's wrong in the game.

Unfortunately, 14 men aside, Wales lost because they missed 11 points of kicks and France missed none...........

[PJHolybloke]

Piennar and co are really starting to annoy me now

Agreed.

I can't stand this "It's the World Cup semi-final..." argument. If Rolland thinks it's a red, it's a red, be it a World Cup semi-final or otherwise.

AND, the fact no-one on ITV has mentioned the actual rules. You know the one about spear tackles being dangerous play. That's a good one. And how about the one where international referees were asked to punish any tackle where the player was driven into the ground or dropped without due care with a straight red card? That's good one too.

But why would the ITV bandwagon want to introduce a speed bump in terms of the 'rules of the game'. Yeah, no need for that

Well they did show a control group of other tip tackles THIS World Cup that were as bad or worse and were punished by yellow cards, that was by far and away the harshest example of a red card I have seen for a tip tackle, so given the precedents I think the pundits are well within their rights to call that unjust.

As for the Law regarding tip tackles, it allows for a scope of punishments from a penalty to a red card, this is clearly intended for the referee to be able to use his judgement on the nature of the infringement, if you think Rolland was right, that's fine it's an opinion to which you are entitled.

To suggest the Laws require a red card for a tip tackle is disingenuous and quite incorrect.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

If only the Welsh fans on here showed half the class that Jamie Roberts just showed in his post match interview,

Does no-one know the rules on dangerous play here? The referee was perfectly entitled to give Warburton a red card- it was dangerous play. If it was an Irish player that did it I would be angry at the referee but after calm consideration I would be angry at the player for such a idiotic player. There was no need to spear tackle the player whatsoever.

Wales can be proud of those players. A tremendous effort by the whole team, the pack was magnificent after Warburton was sent off but ultimately a lack of composure cost them the win.

[newbie]

As someone supporting France this morning by the end I was cheering Wales and hoping they would score. This french team are a disgrace and not fit to wear the jersey, Sella, Blanco, Rives must be squirming with embarrassment . Its worse than watching England.

Red card was unfortunate but it looked dangerous and gave Roland the option.

[robbo277]

The Fijian tackle looked worse. I think the other tackle shown was a Tongan. He didn't drop the player, so it wasn't quite as bad imo.

[Breadvan]

Tense game and unlucky Wales. Harsh red, a yellow but not a sending off. France were poor, especially when they had all the ball at the start of the second half. Thought Hooky had a shocker. Thats why he lost his FH berth at the O's!

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

I know for a fact Rodders had it been an irish player making that tackle, all us irish fans would be calling for the refs head had we been in the semi-final. It is not a straight red under any circumstance. Many players this tournament have been taken out in the air which is much more dangerous and that is not a "straight red" offence either.

Being taken out in the air can also be a straight red, I've seen it happen. If Warburton had tackled an Irish player like that in the quarter final you'd have been calling for his head not the ref's.

I was cheering for Wales today, but that tackle was dangerous.

[Tenez]

I think we (the French) played with fear of losing instead of desire to win. But the fact is we lost so many stupid matches by trying to be creative that it's time we play the "english way" and kicked our way to the final. We can't be blamed for that can we? at least not by the English.

Regarding the referee's red card decision, it's a very good one. It should not even be argued. With the sport becoming more and more physical they have to be extremely strict with those rules as a fatal accident, especially as the pressure mounts in those critical moments could easily happen. The guy fell ok this time but what if he had fallen badly and been paralysed for life? Still a yellow card? Be serious...sports at this level can swiftly turn ugly. Those rules are there for a reason.

[Guest]

Cant the other nations just let us vent some anger please? A lot of us are hurting(A lot more than Clerc after that tackle)

[lostinwales]

Bad tackle - just seen it. It was one of the worst I have seen in the RWC however 'accidental', and however lucky the recipient was in avoiding injury. I dont believe Warburton is a dirty player at all - but he was very stupid here

Have a lot of sympathy with the issue of how it skews the game when a player is sent off - but those are the rules

Wales still made chances but didnt take them

Also its very easy for anyone to say that Rolland would be biased, but especially the losers today. There is no reason for him to be so.

Hope France produce one of their great displays next week

[rodders]

If only the Welsh fans on here showed half the class that Jamie Roberts just showed in his post match interview,

Does no-one know the rules on dangerous play here? The referee was perfectly entitled to give Warburton a red card- it was dangerous play. If it was an Irish player that did it I would be angry at the referee but after calm consideration I would be angry at the player for such a idiotic player. There was no need to spear tackle the player whatsoever.

Wales can be proud of those players. A tremendous effort by the whole team, the pack was magnificent after Warburton was sent off but ultimately a lack of composure cost them the win.

+ 1. The Welsh players and fans have done the country proud over the past 6 weeks and it's a shame that people are letting themselves down by blaming the referee. If people think it wasn't a red they need to read the rules around the spear tackle and re watch the tackle. It was as clear cut a red card as you will ever see.

It wasn't malicious but that doesn't matter under the rules, there is a zero tolerance policy regarding dropping the player after you have lifted them.

[valjester]

I know for a fact Rodders had it been an irish player making that tackle, all us irish fans would be calling for the refs head had we been in the semi-final. It is not a straight red under any circumstance. Many players this tournament have been taken out in the air which is much more dangerous and that is not a "straight red" offence either.

Being taken out in the air can also be a straight red, I've seen it happen. If Warburton had tackled an Irish player like that in the quarter final you'd have been calling for his head not the ref's.

I was cheering for Wales today, but that tackle was dangerous.

It was and its something that the IRB have been trying to stamp out. Two years ago paddy o'brien sent a letter out with a directive on these type of tackles. In that letter there was the following line;

"The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle."

Rolland made the right call and he has been enforcing this for a number of years, unfortunately he is the only one who seems to be doing.
Some people have said it shouldn't be a red because clerc is okay, that is nonsense, set the example early, that way you don't have a second dangerous tackle that results in injury.

[rodders]

roddersm I bet that there are several similar tackles in this world cup that did not even receive a yellow card.
We need refs to use the red card all the time not just when they feel like it.

I agree but it's the other refs that are wrong not Rolland. I know it is unfortunate for Warburton because it is so easy to do but it is a red card.

[EnglishReign]

Williams, a class act during the intervew there. All fans and players could learn a lot from his attitude and graciousness. A true gent.

[mckay1402]

Ok the red card happened but there was still plenty of time. France were poor and if they play like that in the final they will be blown away.

Before the game I thought Hook at 10 was a good call but he had a bad game. Maybe Wales would have won with Jones at 10.

For all the England fans coming on here and suddenly being very smug we are still better than your lot and you didn't even get that close to France with a full team so perhaps smugness isn't that appropriate...

[Mad for Chelsea]

Fact is Rolland has never been afraid of making the big calls like this, so not massively surprised. As a French fan I feel sorry for the Welsh and understand their disappointment. Your reaction is totally understandable (mostly, let's not go down the "mob lynching" route please...)

[valjester]

roddersm I bet that there are several similar tackles in this world cup that did not even receive a yellow card.
We need refs to use the red card all the time not just when they feel like it.

I agree but it's the other refs that are wrong not Rolland. I know it is unfortunate for Warburton because it is so easy to do but it is a red card.

Any tackles which were similar to the warburton one that were only yellowed or missed where subsequently given between three to five week bans. Rolland is the one who is right and he has been consistent in his interpretation for the past two years. It is the other refs who are wrong.

[PJHolybloke]

If only the Welsh fans on here showed half the class that Jamie Roberts just showed in his post match interview,

Does no-one know the rules on dangerous play here? The referee was perfectly entitled to give Warburton a red card- it was dangerous play. If it was an Irish player that did it I would be angry at the referee but after calm consideration I would be angry at the player for such a idiotic player. There was no need to spear tackle the player whatsoever.

Wales can be proud of those players. A tremendous effort by the whole team, the pack was magnificent after Warburton was sent off but ultimately a lack of composure cost them the win.

Well I can only speak for myself here, but until and unless anyone can correct me - the only obligation on Rolland was to award a penalty for Dangerous Play.

The tip tackle was included in an IRB Law update memo about 18 months ago ensuring that it was regulated as Dangerous Play under Law 10.4, the minimum requirement for a tip tackle is a penalty under Law 10.4. Further action taken by the referee regarding a yellow or red card is entirely at his discretion.

Given that POB stated in his referees briefing prior to the WC that tip tackling would be under very close scrutiny, a penalty only (ie no further action) should be considered a let-off; there have been a number of "let-offs" and also a number of yellow cards that have then attracted further punishment in the way of suspensions, however there has been only one red card, and if anyone can point out to me where that was the worst example of a tip tackle during this WC I'll stand corrected.

For the avoidance of doubt, holding a player whilst driving him forcefully downwards with his legs above his waist is a worse offence than dropping a player in the same position.

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