Richie Gray signs for Sale Sharks

http://www.salesharks.com/RugbyNewsDetail/article/2509449/name/Scots%20star%20Richie%20Gray%20signs%20for%20Sharks


Thoughts?

Great signing for Sale who are building up a decent squad.

Disastrous for Glasgow.

wow good signing.

sale will need a few more players before they can challenge for the top 4 though

Very surprising. Good signing for Sale.

The influx of Scottish talent into the AP continues.

Doesn't Richie Gray want guaranteed Heineken Cup rugby though?

IMO Gray could have commanded a bigger club. I think its a super signing but think it a poor move for Gray.

Three year deal starting from June 2012. Great coup by Sale but a strange move for Gray. Surely he would have learnt more in the French league where he could have also made himself very wealthy. Sale do need more power in their pack though and he would bring that but would also fit in to Sale's mobile game plan.

If Sale can sort their issues up front they could sneak 6th place this season.

It'll be great to see the young man in English rugby.

Well done Sale.

I hope he's got his release clauses sorted out for Scottish duty.

But I agree with Rava, this is a disaster for Glasgow.

The move that made most sense would have been Sale to Leinster. He'd be guaranteed to start in one of best teams in Europe who are lackign a second row.

red_stag wrote:The move that made most sense would have been Sale to Leinster. He'd be guaranteed to start in one of best teams in Europe who are lackign a second row.

Haven't Leinster used up all their NIQ places though Stag? or is there someone out of contract at the end of the season?

Strauss turns IQ this season.
Sykes is a "project player"
That leaves a vacant NIQ spot

Good point Staggy he would have been perfect for Leinster. Maybe the IRFU wouldn't sign off on a bid for him as they wouldn't let Leinster keep Hines either (stupid to have let him go).

red stag perhaps Richie Gray doesn't want to move to Dublin?

At least in Manchester he'll be relatively close to Scotland.

I think he would have been persuaded by the Scots at Sale.

Gloucester should really have looked at him as an option with their own Scottish contingent.

The biggest problem is there is no guarantee he'll be playing HC rugby. At least in the Pro 12 he would have as HC places are handed out on a silver platter.

Travelling time from Sale to Edinburgh for Scotland duty might well have played a part.

As said lets hope he has the correct clauses in his contract otherwise he won't be released for all training etc.

Maybe beshocked thats true also. I still think Sale is a poor career move. In Scotland he had a large fan base and guaranteed Heineken Cup Rugby.

Dublin airport to Glasgow airport would take what? 30 minutes. Not really far from home.

Gloucester wouldn't have needed him they already have James and Hamilton as big, powerful locks. If anything Gloucester need a lineout technician a Parling/Borthwick/Wentzel type of player.

red stag you are probably right.

Fair enough Sam. Maybe he just fancied Manchester over Dublin? Certainly must be cheaper surely!

Only saying Gloucester because of the Scottish connection.

Maybe Sale feel they can qualify this season for HC. He has obviously been sold something to help make up his mind and Sale wasn't his only option. I don't buy this "its easier to get to Glasgow thing". Its easy to get anywhere in the British Isles these days and as for going to Edinburgh for Internationals it's not as if he has to set out on the morning of the game!

Not surprised that Gray has gone, dissapointed but not surprised.

Good luck to him at Sale and good luck to anyone trying to generate any interest in the Pro teams in Scotland, they certainly have one heck of a job.

Its bad news for Glasgow and Scotland.

Whats really frustrating from a Rabbo League point of view is that Glasgow and Edinburgh dont bring any Star quality to the league.

If you are looking at Aironi for example they are targeting to bring back all their Italian Internationals playing abroad. Masi probably being the biggest coupe to date.

If you want the league to grow you need each of the participating countries to breed genuine challengers, otherwise it just ends up that the weaker sides hurt the stronger sides and everyone loses out on attendances etc.

Connacht are being looked at by the Irish Union. Dragons are growing and are bringing in and re-signing stars. Aironi are bringing in back players every season. Treviso are in a legal dispute with the Italian Union but thats a battle only the Italian Union can win so if they are not careful they will likely be thrown out of the league and stipped of their status with a New side taking their place.

That basically see's the Scottish sides accepting no responsibilty to grow their Franchises. They seem to actively be happy with releasing star names to play elsewhere only to have them back for International Rugby to swell their coffers. The Scottish Union has less Debt than the Welsh Union. How is it then they are so poorly funded?

Either way, if I was one of the other Unions I would challenge them on this because the Rabbo will only become strong with strong reprisentation from each country. They need to address this for the good of the league.

Btw no disrespect to either side (Glasgow & Edinburgh) but you can see where I am coming from. Had Gray been say 28 then fair enough but the guy is in his early 20's.

Welshmushroom - good point but sounds like Glasgow, and indeed the SRU, pulled out all the stops to try to keep him so it is not as if they let him go.

Would be interesting to see what other clubs were interested in him but, with no disrespect to Sale, I think he should have gone to a bigger club.

Will definitely toughen him up though which is good for Scotland!

Disaster for Glasgow though - he was basically their entire marketing ploy for the team and created amazing interest for the Warriors.

Welshmushroom wrote:Its bad news for Glasgow and Scotland.

Whats really frustrating from a Rabbo League point of view is that Glasgow and Edinburgh dont bring any Star quality to the league.

If you are looking at Aironi for example they are targeting to bring back all their Italian Internationals playing abroad. Masi probably being the biggest coupe to date.

If you want the league to grow you need each of the participating countries to breed genuine challengers, otherwise it just ends up that the weaker sides hurt the stronger sides and everyone loses out on attendances etc.

Connacht are being looked at by the Irish Union. Dragons are growing and are bringing in and re-signing stars. Aironi are bringing in back players every season. Treviso are in a legal dispute with the Italian Union but thats a battle only the Italian Union can win so if they are not careful they will likely be thrown out of the league and stipped of their status with a New side taking their place.

That basically see's the Scottish sides accepting no responsibilty to grow their Franchises. They seem to actively be happy with releasing star names to play elsewhere only to have them back for International Rugby to swell their coffers. The Scottish Union has less Debt than the Welsh Union. How is it then they are so poorly funded?

Either way, if I was one of the other Unions I would challenge them on this because the Rabbo will only become strong with strong reprisentation from each country. They need to address this for the good of the league.

Btw no disrespect to either side (Glasgow & Edinburgh) but you can see where I am coming from. Had Gray been say 28 then fair enough but the guy is in his early 20's.

Have you seriously just said that......Glasgow and Edinburgh bring no star quality to the league but the Italians do??

Quite possibly the funniest comment I've ever read on here.

A majority of the Scots internationalists still play for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Classic

From what I can discover, the offer on the table at Glasgow was not the issue - he's a young man that wants to spread his wings a little, without completely losing touch with his home town. Not as much of a "disaster" for the Warriors that some are making out - Ryder performed admirably when Gray and Kellock were at the RWC, and Verkabel can do a decent bench job. Hopefully we'll pick up another Scottish youngster (like his younger brother: Jonny Gray or the promising Robert McAlpine) who can be similarly developed.

I find the choice of Sale a little surprising on the rugby front alone, although I know that there's a lot going on there with a healthy Scottish connection. Good luck to the lad anyhew

Oh my god - this is a terrible move for Gray.

He is an iconic player from a Scotland perspective so I have no doubt that Lineen would have written him a blank cheque but going to Sale (no offense Sharks fans) rather than to somewhere like Leinster, a Top 14 club or a top 4 Premiership club just smacks of him being badly advised.

I cannot believe that Lineen would have advised him to go to Sale. Or Kellock or Hines for that matter.

Fairly taken a dump on my afternoon, that news.

Fantastic signing for Sale. This is the calibre they need to be looking at. More than a little excited about this signing.

Massive blow for Glasgow though. He really is a franchise player, to use an Americanism.

Welshmushroom wrote:Connacht are being looked at by the Irish Union. Dragons are growing and are bringing in and re-signing stars.

Connacht have had their review from the IRFU and it's findings have already been put in place. Which players are the Dragons bringing back?

Welshmushroom wrote:That basically see's the Scottish sides accepting no responsibilty to grow their Franchises. They seem to actively be happy with releasing star names to play elsewhere only to have them back for International Rugby to swell their coffers.

Erm, wrong again. Finance wasn't an issue with this move - he had a good offer on the table from the Warriors. Much the same as Mark Bennett, this is a personal decision.

Welshmushroom wrote:Either way, if I was one of the other Unions I would challenge them on this because the Rabbo will only become strong with strong reprisentation from each country. They need to address this for the good of the league.

Btw no disrespect to either side (Glasgow & Edinburgh) but you can see where I am coming from.

Nope, I can't tbh. I'm not aware that Glasgow are doing so poorly in the league at the moment for you to assume that they are bringing down the standard of play?

If the Scottish sides wish to try and increase attendances they really need to keep hold of their home grown stars.

Would Leinster have grown in support as much as they did if they let BOD go, or Munster with POC, even the Ospreys must have benefited by having big name players.

Apart from that will these teams improve if as soon as some player gets good they let them go, ok they can't keep hold of them all, and it'll give youth a chance, but selling clubs will never compete for the highest honors.

Trust me, the Warriors wanted to keep him

I hope Sale use this signing to their advantage. He is a marketable player and could really help them to grow in the north west.

Tattie Scones - You've totally taken points out of context. Clearly no one is arguing that Italians are poorer than Scottish sides. They are new however and are at least trying to bring back their best players into the league. The fact they dont have the International Ranking probably illustrates that their stars are just not quite as good as some of the other NH nations. That will change in time and at least they are putting plans in place.

If you look at the progression Scottish sides have made in say the last 6 years?


Aslong,

Firstly Dragons brought in players like G. Thomas, Morgan & Chavanga. Sure they are the bottom of the pile in terms of Welsh resources. When we do lose our stars though they will probably end up at either the Scarlets, Blues & Ospreys. That will still see the star retained within the Rabbo.

Secondly, if Finance wasnt his reason for leaving then fair enough. But then why Sale? They wont win a meaningful trophy in the next couple of years. Is Manchester really that appealing?

Thirdly, you a clearly missing the bigger picture here. This isnt a question of how they are currently performing. They are already clearly perceived as underdogs. No one tips them to win the league. No one tips them to do well in the HC. They just dont have the resources.

The point I'm making is that if Scotlands best players are not plying their trade in Scotland how exactly are you going to increase your fan base?

Its not a question of being compeitive. This is about commercial viabiltiy. In order to make sure everyone within the league stays compeitive their needs to be strong commercial viability from both Fans and business. Otherwise we will end up seeing the best players from all our Home Unions plying their trade in France. That wont be good for anyone.

Anyone got any stats in regards to average attendances in the Top 14,Celtic League and AP?

Would be interesting to see the average attendance of Glasgow vs Sale.

I wonder why he was so keen on leaving if they tried to keep him,
surly a Glasgow born and bred person should want above all to play for Glasgow!

One of the important things about growing a team, is pride in the shirt, wouldBestFerris want to leave Ulster, POC Munster etc etc

If your local team can match your ambition, why would you want to move, it's simply Glasgow don't seam capable of matching that ambition.

and Tattie scone rrn
"Have you seriously just said that......Glasgow and Edinburgh bring no star quality to the league but the Italians do??

Quite possibly the funniest comment I've ever read on here."


It's only the Italian teams second year in the league, and for one the second year of it's existance, but already they are proving more ambitious than the Scots.

The Scottish teams have proved to be selling clubs, that may suit the SRU, to use the clubs as development teams (doing well at the present mind), but the Italian teams appear to be buying clubs, keeping hold of their players and adding better quality to it.

In the long run the Italians will overtake the Scottish teams, if the status quo remains, and the Italian acamadies get into full swing. Remember this is only year 2.

Kingshu wrote:I wonder why he was so keen on leaving if they tried to keep him,
surly a Glasgow born and bred person should want above all to play for Glasgow!

One of the important things about growing a team, is pride in the shirt, wouldBestFerris want to leave Ulster, POC Munster etc etc

If your local team can match your ambition, why would you want to move, it's simply Glasgow don't seam capable of matching that ambition.

and Tattie scone rrn
"Have you seriously just said that......Glasgow and Edinburgh bring no star quality to the league but the Italians do??

Quite possibly the funniest comment I've ever read on here."


It's only the Italian teams second year in the league, and for one the second year of it's existance, but already they are proving more ambitious than the Scots.

Kingshu - I'm afraid that you're going to have to justify what you mean by "more ambitious".

Because as a generalisation, that's unquantifiable doo-doo unfortunately.

Are Welsh clubs less "ambitious" because Philips, Hook and Byrne are all now playing in France?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_national_rugby_union_team

Just look at the Scottish rugby wiki page. 9 Scottish players that were in the squad play in England.

Up to 15 if you include the other players not playing in Scotland!


Who used to be at Glasgow - Richie Vernon,Kelly Brown,Dan Parks,Rory Lamont,Sean Lamont,Max Evans

That's a lot of quality lost!

Yes, Beshocked, but a lot of those players you've named have been adequately replaced with some very promising youngsters:

Richie Vernon - Ryan Wilson, Dave Denton
Kelly Brown - Rob Harley
Dan Parks - Ruiridh Jackson, Duncan Weir and Harry Leonard
Rory & Sean Lamont - Lee Jones, Tim Visser and Tommy Seymour
Max Evans - Matt Scott

It's not as though Glasgow and Edinburgh are in a considerably worse position now than they were two years ago. Many of these youngsters are likely to feature prominently in the national team in the next five years.

So, am I disappointed that some talented Scottish players aren't playing for the Scottish pro team? YES.
Do I think that exporting our talent is in the long-term best interests of the national team? YES.
Am I pleased that there are Scottish players good enough to ply their trade abroad? DOUBLE YES.

beshocked wrote:Anyone got any stats in regards to average attendances in the Top 14,Celtic League and AP?

Would be interesting to see the average attendance of Glasgow vs Sale.

I doubt he is joining Sale because of their crowds, being as their average home attendance last season in the GP was 8,246. This does however compare favourably on Glasgow who averaged 2,967 at home in the Magners.

Steve diamond has recruited a lot of bulk in the summer - and that is just Tony buckley!. Adding Grey to the mix shows that Sale are looking to build a big mean pack.

LondonTiger I might be wrong but I thought Buckley was known for being a poor scrummager.

That's a pretty decent average for Sale.

More Amibitious

Currently number of Internationals from those Unions plying their trade with the respective clubs:-

Aironi - 20 International Italian Capped players
Treviso - 25 International Italian Capped players

Edinburgh - 14 International Scottish Capped players
Warriors - 11 (10 when Gray leaves) Int Capped players

In terms of home grown international players that puts the 2 Italian sides right up there with Leinster, Ospreys & Munster. As the standard of those International capped players improves so will the fortunes of the Italian sides.

There are currently less Scottish Internationals at Edinburgh and Warriors than there where 2 years ago, so yes I would say Italians are more ambitious at the moment.

Regarding attendances.

Sale have got big plans. They are looking at moving further into Manchester and ground sharing with Salford City Reds to open up the Wider north-west market. If it's successful, they could find themselves in a very strong position.

George Carlin wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I wonder why he was so keen on leaving if they tried to keep him,
surly a Glasgow born and bred person should want above all to play for Glasgow!

One of the important things about growing a team, is pride in the shirt, wouldBestFerris want to leave Ulster, POC Munster etc etc

If your local team can match your ambition, why would you want to move, it's simply Glasgow don't seam capable of matching that ambition.

and Tattie scone rrn
"Have you seriously just said that......Glasgow and Edinburgh bring no star quality to the league but the Italians do??

Quite possibly the funniest comment I've ever read on here."


It's only the Italian teams second year in the league, and for one the second year of it's existance, but already they are proving more ambitious than the Scots.

Kingshu - I'm afraid that you're going to have to justify what you mean by "more ambitious".

Because as a generalisation, that's unquantifiable doo-doo unfortunately.

Are Welsh clubs less "ambitious" because Philips, Hook and Byrne are all now playing in France?

Easy one this, Ospreys lost players to some of the top teams in France, Glasgow and Edinburgh are losing their players to middle clubs in England, they should be able to ward of the advances of middlle clubs, but accept that they will lose out to the big rich teams.

The Italian sides are keeping hold of players, and trying to bring home the best Italian players they can.
The Scottish sides don't keep hold of their players too well, and don't try to bring back international players.
Therefore it is fair to conclude that the Itailian teams are more ambitious.
You can also add what Welshmushroom says

Right move for Gray but not convinced the club he has chosen is the right one. I would have prefered to see him go to Leinster or a team with proper HC possibilities.However Sale is a club that has provided some powerful athletic forwards in the past, Chabal, White etc and hopefully Gray can pick some even more physicallity at the club.

As for Scottish teams being less ambitious than the Italians, rubbish! Hanging onto players like Brown, Vernon, Parks and Evans etc would have denied the likes of Seymor, Harley, JAckson, Weir et al from laying down their impressive markers this season.

Perhaps letting the bigger names go is an astute move by Glasgow, Edinburgh and the SRU as a whole as it forces these youngester to seize their oppertunities with both hands!

Good Luck for next season Richie!

IanBru wrote:Yes, Beshocked, but a lot of those players you've named have been adequately replaced with some very promising youngsters:

Richie Vernon - Ryan Wilson, Dave Denton
Kelly Brown - Rob Harley
Dan Parks - Ruiridh Jackson, Duncan Weir and Harry Leonard
Rory & Sean Lamont - Lee Jones, Tim Visser and Tommy Seymour
Max Evans - Matt Scott

It's not as though Glasgow and Edinburgh are in a considerably worse position now than they were two years ago. Many of these youngsters are likely to feature prominently in the national team in the next five years.

Ok firstly you cant just chuck youngsters in and expect it to work out. Sides like Ospreys, Leinster, Munster bring just as much talent through if not more. The difference is they help build their experience by having experienced quality around them. It also helps to increase compeitition for players earning the shirt instead of being given it due to a lack of options.

IanBru wrote:Do I think that exporting our talent is in the long-term best interests of the national team? YES.

I fail to see how the exporting option is the best thing for the National Team. National setup losses total control on players. Unable to monitor them in some cases. Risk of Injury is probably increased due to the increased games those players will end up playing. Availabilty issues which Scotland end up paying for to obtain the access (which could see a potential hostage situation as clubs could start asking for more money).

IanBru wrote:Am I pleased that there are Scottish players good enough to ply their trade abroad? DOUBLE YES.

This statement I have the biggest problem with. OFC Scottish players should be good enough to play abroad. As should any other International plying their trade in the Rabbo. Do you believe that the Rabbo League is somehow inverior to the English or French league? The only compeition that even gets remotely close to International Rugby in the NH is the HC. With the particpiating Unions in the Rabbo the league could become stronger than both the French and English leagues but in order for that to happen all sides particiapting need to contribute to the brand. One thing is clear, if NH has any intention of closing the gap SH rugby we need to increase the standard of our domestic league. Stop looking at awe at the English and French as if they are superior. They are not. They are in the same state as us. We should be looking at SH rugby as target goal (and even they have issues).

beshocked wrote:LondonTiger I might be wrong but I thought Buckley was known for being a poor scrummager.

true - but you cannot deny he is bulky.

Welshmushroom true. With automatic entry into the Heineken Cup for almost all Rabo sides (11 teams) those sides should be more competitive.

Many of the Rabo clubs in the HC have virtually no chance of winning it? Why? They should do surely?

Why with the constant revenue stream and exposure to top quality rugby sides have the Scottish sides and to a lesser extent the Welsh sides not kicked on?

It is not all out of the question to see no Welsh,Scottish or Italian sides in the HC quarter finals.


Very true london tiger. Buckley is definitely bulky!

The answer to why they have not kicked is partly due to inferior thinking.

I hope Wales have turned the corner after the WC and players go back to their regions realizing that they have nothing to fear.

If truth be told, we seem to look up to these sides. The Irish don't fear them at all. They respect them but certanly French and English rugby holds no fears for them. If anything English and French teams are threatened by Irish sides. The other Rabbo sides need to start doing the same.

The one thing though that is clear. You wont buy success. Ethos, structure, unity, limited game time, facilties & developement are usually a root case of success in Rugby.

In truth Scottish rugby probably needs to look at facilities, stadiums & development path ways before player retention can be affored at any rate.

True there isn't much to fear from most of the Celtic League sides bar Munster and Leinster.

Ospreys and Cardiff have the best chances to qualify of the Italians,Scots and Welsh.

Ospreys need to lay down a marker against Biarritz at home. If the unthinkable happens and Ospreys lose.....

Cardiff are in a very well poised group with 3 teams realistically looking to top the pool.

The Scottish and Italian sides need to target their home games. They could well upset the big boys in their group.

Kingshu wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I wonder why he was so keen on leaving if they tried to keep him,
surly a Glasgow born and bred person should want above all to play for Glasgow!

One of the important things about growing a team, is pride in the shirt, wouldBestFerris want to leave Ulster, POC Munster etc etc

If your local team can match your ambition, why would you want to move, it's simply Glasgow don't seam capable of matching that ambition.

and Tattie scone rrn
"Have you seriously just said that......Glasgow and Edinburgh bring no star quality to the league but the Italians do??

Quite possibly the funniest comment I've ever read on here."


It's only the Italian teams second year in the league, and for one the second year of it's existance, but already they are proving more ambitious than the Scots.

Kingshu - I'm afraid that you're going to have to justify what you mean by "more ambitious".

Because as a generalisation, that's unquantifiable doo-doo unfortunately.

Are Welsh clubs less "ambitious" because Philips, Hook and Byrne are all now playing in France?

Easy one this, Ospreys lost players to some of the top teams in France, Glasgow and Edinburgh are losing their players to middle clubs in England, they should be able to ward of the advances of middlle clubs, but accept that they will lose out to the big rich teams.

The Italian sides are keeping hold of players, and trying to bring home the best Italian players they can.
The Scottish sides don't keep hold of their players too well, and don't try to bring back international players.
Therefore it is fair to conclude that the Itailian teams are more ambitious.
You can also add what Welshmushroom says

I don't recall any Jeff or Magners club following over themselves to sign any Italian players over the past three years. Nobody else was even in for Castrogiovanni at the time.

So I'm trying to think of ways in which that could be a larger pile of cobblers. But I'm struggling.

Actually think this is a smart move for everyone involved.

Maybe im the only one!

Sure he could have gone to a "bigger" club, but there is definitely a rejuvanation of sorts going on in Sale, and with signings like this, that will continue. They need some real enforcer types in the front 5 but so far, its going alright.

Also, with Scotland only having 2 pro-teams, if none of their star players went abroad the national team would be limited to 2 players per position to choose from (or going with reserves). With those 15 players plying their trade elsewhere they have a chance to bring through another 15 young scottish players from the academys. Because of the lack of pro-clubs they need to produce these players and shuffle them on and then produce more at a faster rate than Welsh/Irish teams would. This means they'll no doubt be stuck in a cycle of struggling at Heineken level, not at rabo12 level mind.

It needs to happen for the benefit of having a competitive national side IMO.

Comfort wrote:Actually think this is a smart move for everyone involved.

Maybe im the only one!

Sure he could have gone to a "bigger" club, but there is definitely a rejuvanation of sorts going on in Sale, and with signings like this, that will continue. They need some real enforcer types in the front 5 but so far, its going alright.

Also, with Scotland only having 2 pro-teams, if none of their star players went abroad the national team would be limited to 2 players per position to choose from (or going with reserves). With those 15 players plying their trade elsewhere they have a chance to bring through another 15 young scottish players from the academys. Because of the lack of pro-clubs they need to produce these players and shuffle them on and then produce more at a faster rate than Welsh/Irish teams would. This means they'll no doubt be stuck in a cycle of struggling at Heineken level, not at rabo12 level mind.

It needs to happen for the benefit of having a competitive national side IMO.

I'm thinking along the same lines as you. From Sale's point of view, it becomes a chicken-and-egg situation. They want to regularly feature in the Heineken Cup to attract better players/ more fans etc. To do this they must have better players. Gray represents the sort of player Sale need. He is the sort of NEQ player that I don't mind seeing in the Premiership, he isn't a journey man, he's going to want to grow with the club and he has shed loads of talent.

From the player's point of view, be gets an opportunity to chance his arm in a new league and it could help develop his game, which is also good for Scotland.

The only draw back I can see is from Glasgow, who are losing a very talented player. He isn't the sort of player you want to lose to a space making exercise either.

Comfort wrote:Actually think this is a smart move for everyone involved.

Also, with Scotland only having 2 pro-teams, if none of their star players went abroad the national team would be limited to 2 players per position to choose from (or going with reserves). With those 15 players plying their trade elsewhere they have a chance to bring through another 15 young scottish players from the academys. Because of the lack of pro-clubs they need to produce these players and shuffle them on and then produce more at a faster rate than Welsh/Irish teams would. This means they'll no doubt be stuck in a cycle of struggling at Heineken level, not at rabo12 level mind.

It needs to happen for the benefit of having a competitive national side IMO.

You are correct in that we need some players, unfortunatley good ones as well to move to free up spaces for the next generation. However losing guys in their early 20s is a bit gutting to be honest.

Gray is loss no doubt, but he is one we can cover as we do have some depth at Lock. If Cusiter and/or Barclay goes the cupboard is very bare in terms of replacements.

Hopefully the SRU new lot will stand by their word and will not see the loss of these guys as a cost saving, but will re-invest there saved salary by signing some decent overseas replacements.

George Carlin wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I wonder why he was so keen on leaving if they tried to keep him,
surly a Glasgow born and bred person should want above all to play for Glasgow!

One of the important things about growing a team, is pride in the shirt, wouldBestFerris want to leave Ulster, POC Munster etc etc

If your local team can match your ambition, why would you want to move, it's simply Glasgow don't seam capable of matching that ambition.

and Tattie scone rrn
"Have you seriously just said that......Glasgow and Edinburgh bring no star quality to the league but the Italians do??

Quite possibly the funniest comment I've ever read on here."


It's only the Italian teams second year in the league, and for one the second year of it's existance, but already they are proving more ambitious than the Scots.

Kingshu - I'm afraid that you're going to have to justify what you mean by "more ambitious".

Because as a generalisation, that's unquantifiable doo-doo unfortunately.

Are Welsh clubs less "ambitious" because Philips, Hook and Byrne are all now playing in France?

Easy one this, Ospreys lost players to some of the top teams in France, Glasgow and Edinburgh are losing their players to middle clubs in England, they should be able to ward of the advances of middlle clubs, but accept that they will lose out to the big rich teams.

The Italian sides are keeping hold of players, and trying to bring home the best Italian players they can.
The Scottish sides don't keep hold of their players too well, and don't try to bring back international players.
Therefore it is fair to conclude that the Itailian teams are more ambitious.
You can also add what Welshmushroom says

I don't recall any Jeff or Magners club following over themselves to sign any Italian players over the past three years. Nobody else was even in for Castrogiovanni at the time.

So I'm trying to think of ways in which that could be a larger pile of cobblers. But I'm struggling.

Do you even follow the Rabbo, carling?

Erm Castro was being chased down by several French clubs and several other leading European clubs. The Salary he was commanding was pricing about 75% of the teams out just at entry level.

Secondly Rabbo sides are limited with Foreign players. Welsh, Irish & Italian sides cant just buy anyone they like. Each has to answer to their respective Unions for inclusion of Foreigners. A Italian playing for say Munster is still classed as a Foreigner. This makes them less appealing as given the choice between a SH counterpart they will go that way every time.

Thirdly - nobody is stating anything about Italian Players currently being better players. But what we are saying is that given that 95% of the Italian National side is now plying their trade in the Rabbo and given time and experience in the league they may very well do. Treviso are already making big strides.
The main thing though is that by retaining their Internationals it will become more apealing to watch and thus growing the fan base which the league needs.

Its not just the home attendances either. People from other teams get increased attendances when top sides turn up.


I'd also like to point out that sides like Munster, Leinster & Ospreys have much bigger squads. I count the unofficial squad at the Ospreys at over 60+ players. They can really look after their star assets and force real competition within their squads. Thats how to get better. Not by trying to go through the season with 30 players in a squad.