Heineken Cup Pool 5 - Discussion

First topic message reminder :

I thought I would add a preview for pool 5 as it doesn't have one yet. It should be very interesting with the recent good form of Treviso and Ospreys in comparison to the disastrous form of Biarritz in the top 14.


Biarritz - the Basque giants are Heineken Cup veterans and were only pipped to the post in the HC final just two seasons ago. In the Top 14 this season they have had a horrific start - they are rooted to the foot of the table with only 1 win and 2 draws from 9 games. Their two draws at home vs Agen and Lyon with their only win against Bordeaux. Of course they will be buoyed by two of France's key world cup finalists, Dimitri Yachvili and Imanol Harinorduquy who will be key to their chances. Other stars include USA winger Nwgenya, Benoit Baby and Iain Balshaw. They have the heineken cup pedigree but do they have the capabilities to come out of a tough group?

Key player: Imanol Harinorduquy


Ospreys - the team dubbed as the "galacticos" have been trying their utmost to destroy this tag invented by the media. They have resorted to the banning of fake tan, colour boots and getting rid of a few of their so called "superstars" like James Hook,Mike Phillips and Lee Byrne leading to being less in the limelight. This policy seems to have reaped dividends with them currently at the summit of the Celtic League things look promising for the Ospreys.

They still have plenty of class in their lineup like Ryan Jones,Adam Jones,Shane Williams and Tommy Bowe mixed with a nice blend of youngsters. They will be licking their lips at the prospect of yet another HC quarter final. Could they maybe go onto to greater things?

Key player:Adam Jones


Saracens - the English champions will want to make amends of a very poor Heineken cup last season with only 1 win. In contrast to their very poor European ranking Saracens have been one of the form teams in the Aviva Premiership, having just lost 1 game in 19 in the AP. (I think) Their game has been built on a very strong defence and taking every opportunity on offer. Not the most profilic try scorers but will ruthlessly punish you if given the chance. In terms of their lineup they are building a formidable squad with plenty of strength in depth. They have a nice mix of young talent like James Short,Owen Farrell and Jamie George, a strong and experienced contingent of foreigners like Schalk Brits,Ernst Joubert,Jacuqes Burger and Neil De Kock and also excellent fringe English players like David Strettle,Charlie Hodgson and Steve Borthwick. Look like the favourites to top the pool but the question of try bonus points will always be on the mind. Do they have the potential to win the Heineken Cup?

Key player:Charlie Hodgson

Treviso - the Italian team are certainly not going to be pushovers this season. 6th in the Rabo, winning the 4 of the last 5 they will fancy causing an upset at two. Certainly at home where they have had notable wins. They do have classy players in their side like Italian internationals Alessandro Zanni, Fabio Semenzato and Leonardo Ghiraldini. All the pressure will be on the other three sides to perform so Treviso can just play their own game and aim to frustate their opposition.

Key Player:Alessandro Zanni



Pool Predictions

1.Saracens
2.Ospreys (Best runners up)
3.Biarritz
4.Treviso

The expert's previews:

http://www.planet-rugby.co.za/story/0,25883,16016_7298871,00.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1109/1224307252305.html

http://www.gamblingkingz.com/news/2011/11/08/heineken-cup-rugby-odds-and-pool-previews-part-2.asp


Thoughts?

Sam we are quite possibly the opposite of that. We have clinical precision but aren't necessarily innovative in attack.

Of course getting the try bonus point against Treviso won't be easy- the team focus is always on the win first. Biarritz away is always hard even against a completely out of form Biarritz.

Please maestegmafia give me examples of my cocky confidence. Stop spouting the rubbish of losing few players to the world cup I am sick of it! We lost 8 to the world cup!

I live in cloud cuckoo land because I think one of the current form teams in Europe and the side which most expert pundits are tipping to win the pool will win the pool?

Yes we play very conservative rugby but do we lose often? No.

We are the English champions for a reason. We frequently beat the likes of Saints,Leicester,Gloucester,Quins and Bath for a reason. Yes I will freely admit call ups has some impact in some of those matches but certainly not in all.

Have Ospreys had the same hold over their Celtic counterparts? No

Biarritz the best side on paper seriously? Their appalling Top 14 form shows how much they rely on Yachvili and Harinorduquy.

I am impressed that you can say with such conviction that Saracens with one of the best away records around will lose at least two away games. Of course I believe this will bite you in the bottom but we'll see.


Also we unceremoniously dumped out Biarritz and Ospreys in the 2007-8 season. You probably backed those two sides then. I know it was a while back....

If you think Ospreys will win that's your opinion. Do I agree no of course not. Do most people disagree with you? Yes.

Maestegmafia have you ever thought about becoming a mystic meg?



Aslongasbut100 top bloke.

LondonTiger well said.

Don't think the younger Taki was in the Fiji squad but Hayden Smith was in the USA squad.

Sarries were able to take advantage of having a large squad unhindered by injury and with a good portion of their key players not being called up. The leaders like Borthwick, Joubert, de Kock and Hodgson were there to guide the team. Keeping the so called 'x-factor' players (Strette, Goode, Brits, Short) was certainly a massive advantage in getting some TBP on the board as well.

Sam we are quite possibly the opposite of that. We have clinical precision but aren't necessarily innovative in attack.

I know, which is what will make it interesting. Sarries are more than happy to go toe to toe with an opponent but when the ball goes wide to explosive players and clever kicking games are introduced there is a hint of weakness. Not enough for Gloucester to expose the other week but the Ospreys should be aiming for a similar plan. Trying to over power Sarries is a big ask but the likes of Barritt and Farrell do look beatable when challenged on the outside, running into either would be a waste of time (and one of the areas where Tigers went wrong back in May).

Sam that's what makes it so interesting.

I am really excited by this pool which is why I am talking about it so much.

It's my dream pool.

beshocked wrote:Sam that's what makes it so interesting.

I am really excited by this pool which is why I am talking about it so much.

It's my dream pool.

Why is this your dream pool?

If you lord Saracens as one of the top teams in Europe why would it matter which pool they were in...?

It is his dream because it contains his team and teams that will each bring something different to the table.

I suspect that most fans feel that about the groups they are in.

Sam that's what makes it so interesting

Sarries percision and careful structured play vs the Ospreys innovation and speed. The set pieces will be a battle but the loose play should be the real interest.

Thank you London Tiger.

Maestegmafia to answer your question. I wanted sides we hadn't had in a while.

Biarritz - the no 1 seed, one of the two weakest seeds on offer. Still a big french club with lots of glamour and good heineken cup pedigree. Biarritz is a nice away trip. Has one of my favourite players Harinorduquy

Ospreys - 2nd seed - one of the best Welsh sides. Of the 4 Welsh sides certainly the most glamorous. Plenty of quality. Not as far away as the others so good for the Wembley and Liberty stadium trips. Plenty of Welsh stars.

Treviso - one of the weaker sides but should be an excellent away trip. The area of Treviso and Italy in general is excellent for food and wine. Should be an interesting tussle, especially in their backyard.


Also the added spice because we met the O's and Biarritz last in 2007-8.

The groups have real balance this season in my opinion.

True Sam

beshocked wrote:Of the 4 Welsh sides certainly the most glamorous.

It is comments like this really make it difficult to take you serious...!

Maestegmafia Don't take me seriously then. You sound tense/stressed. Go and get a massage, lie in a bath or jaccuzi etc. Failing that just drink yourself into a stupor.

I know it's difficult to call any of the Welsh clubs glamorous. It's the wrong word but I was trying to be complimentary to your club.

A more apt description would be Ospreys are the best Welsh club and most high profile Welsh club in Wales.

I'd say this is the toughest pool to predict, and as such I suspect only one side will emerge from it, as even the bottom ranked side, Treviso, will be a real handful at home (just ask the Dragons how good they can be).

If I had to stick my neck out I'd go for Sarries. Strong pack, consistent performers, good basics throughout the side and with Hodgson at 10, a player who can unlock a tight defence. Very hard to call though, as it's effectively any side from three that could top the group. On their day, Biarritz and the Ospreys are very good sides, but it's because of Sarries consistency that I'll go for them, but I doubt they'll go through unbeaten.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Try:
England - Stevens, Wigglesworth,
Scotland - Brown
Namibia - Burger
South Africa - Smit
USA - Wyles
Fiji - Tagicakibou, Ratuvou

Can't think of any more at the moment, but will come back if i do

Well hang on, how can you include half of those players when they had only just signed to be registered with Saracens THIS season?

Actually forgot about Smit and MAtt STevens going to Saracens. That's a pretty good pack. But then so is Ospreys (Paul James, Ryan Bevington, Rich Hibbard, Huw Bennet, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Jon Thomas, George Stowers are just a few that spring to mind....) It will be a big battle up front.

Which ones other then Smit just turned up this season? Why exclude him? Presumably Sarries released a player to accommodate him, so either way thy were down a man? I'm not a Sarries fan, Morgan, just trying to help get facts strait

When you see the list of players missing to Saracens compared to the Ospreys there is a difference. A big difference...!

Paul James, Huw Bennet, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ryan Jones, George Stowers will all be first choice players come the HEC, the same can not be sad of the eight Saracens players named.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Which ones other then Smit just turned up this season? Why exclude him? Presumably Sarries released a player to accommodate him, so either way thy were down a man? I'm not a Sarries fan, Morgan, just trying to help get facts strait

Can't be sure if Sarries released a player to accommodate him. Stevens and Wigglesworth seem like new names to me for Sarries although I think Wigglesworth has already been there for a season.

maestegmafia wrote:When you see the list of players missing to Saracens compared to the Ospreys there is a difference. A big difference...!

Paul James, Huw Bennet, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ryan Jones, George Stowers will all be first choice players come the HEC, the same can not be sad of the eight Saracens players named.

That's rubbish, Matt Stevens, Richard Wigglesworth, Kelly Brown, Jacques Burger & Chris Wyles all started the AP final for Saracens, Michael Tagicakibau would have at least made the bench if not started if he hadn't been out for the season, and you must be dreaming if you think John Smit wouldn't feature at some point.

Well said aslongasbut100ofus and hawalsh

Morganwwg you don't really know anything about Saracens do you?

Our XV will likely look like this

1.Stevens
2.Brits
3.Nieto
4.Borthwick
5.Botha
6.Brown
7.Burger
8.Joubert
9.De Kock
10.Hodgson
11.Short
12.Barritt
13.Farrell
14.Strettle
15.Goode

If Wigglesworth wasn't injured he would be playing.

Surely you have heard of some of our players?

The only new player this season which will likely be in the starting XV is Charlie Hodgson.

Is Adam Powell injured?

While I like Barritt and Farrell individually as players, neither is an outside centre and having them both in the centres will not get the best out of a talented back 3.

No but Powell has had a very long layoff and is finding it hard to get gametime. This is what the likely XV is. If Powell can re-find the form of 2009/10 he'll be the outside centre.

I agree with you it's not ideal.

Saracens current weaknesses IMO are lacking that real top notch quality at loosehead prop and a true outside centre. Gill is alright but I would worry with him up against A.Jones. Stevens is better at tighthead as shown by the world cup!

Joel Tomkins is meant to be the long term solution at outside centre though obviously he's a bit of a gamble and won't be ready to play AP rugby for a while let alone high stakes HC rugby! Last season we did alright with Chris Wyles at outside centre but that's not his best position.

beshocked wrote:
Morganwwg you don't really know anything about Saracens do you?

TBH all I know about Sarries is that they are a South African Franchise playing in England that is going to get their behinds handed to them by the OSPREYS.

Saracens team vs Benetton Treviso

15 Chris Wyles
14 David Strettle
13 Owen Farrell
12 Brad Barritt
11 James Short
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Neil de Kock
1 Rhys Gill
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 Hayden Smith
6 Kelly Brown
7 Andy Saull
8 Ernst Joubert

16 John Smit
17 Deon Carstens
18 Carlos Nieto
19 George Kruis
20 Justin Melck
21 Ben Spencer
22 Adam Powell
23 Alex Goode

Carstens not gone quite yet.

Oh and Botha/Burger just rested or injured?

LondonTiger not sure about Botha but yes Jacques Burger has picked up a knock. I presume Botha is on rotation. Hayden Smith is a handy player. Plus George Kruis is a decent young prospect on the bench, ex England U20s.

I know it's a shame about Carstens!

Interesting to see what Smit brings.


Ha ha Is that the best insult you can come up with Morganwgg?

Fair enough I didn't expect you to have any knowledge of our side. You probably only think Ospreys will win simply because they are Welsh!

I don't think I have seen one preview on the HC that thinks Ospreys will win the group. Ospreys have more of a chance than Biarritz but two previews seem to think Biarritz will prevail.

Ok I have one for you. You're team is so bad that they were the only side in the Celtic league not to qualify for the HC! 11 out of 12 sides. The only one not to come to the party.

I am happy in the knowledge we are English champions and are competing in the Heineken Cup.

Farrell at outside center is a very interesting idea. I think this could work well if he has the pace for the position.

I do nto rate him as a flyhalf, too much kicking, doesnt get the backline moving, but I thought that he could make a good center.

Oh yeah because pundits are always spot on in the predictions game aren't they? Your bubble may get burst soon. Who are you referring to by the way, Sky Sports' Rugby Club panel?

I was only kidding. Although I'm not sure what else there is to know about Saracens apart from they're Premiership Champions, have SA owners?

*EDIT - some news you may be interested in, the Ospreys team has been announced. When Saracens face them they will hopefully have the likes of Paul James available and found a decent full-back. The pack is one of the best though: Fussell, Bowe, Bishop, Beck, Williams, Biggar, Fotuali'i, Thomas, Tipuric, Stowers, AWJ(c), Evans, A.Jones, Bennet, D.Jones.

My bubble? What bubble? No look at my links on my first post.

I can't be bothered to tell you. Just go on the wiki page. Though I will let you into a little secret - Saracens are older than all the Welsh regions put together.

First rule that students abide by(but it shouldn't just stop at students) is never rely on information found on Wikipedia.

Whatever floats your boat. Back on topic.

Maestegmafia very true. Farrell is just filling in.

Hodgson will probably start at FH for 50 minutes. He'll come off and Farrell will move to FH. Powell comes on and moves to outside centre.

Considering how Aviva Premiership leaders, un-beaten Harlequins faired against ninth placed Connacht tonight. The Rabo teams will fancy taking the Aviva teams on...!

Treviso could cause a shock

maestegmafia wrote:Considering how Aviva Premiership leaders, un-beaten Harlequins faired against ninth placed Connacht tonight. The Rabo teams will fancy taking the Aviva teams on...!

Treviso could cause a shock

Do you often base all upcoming results on one game (which Quins won by more than score anyway)?

Hope you're not coat-tailing the Irish (even in defeat ).

He's a wum hiding behind a "serious" poster.

The Celts DOMINATED the first round;).

what "Celts"? The ones conquered by the Romans, Vikings,Saxons,Normans and were treated as a sweetshop by the Galic Irish raiders and Picts from the north?

Breadvan wrote:He's a wum hiding behind a "serious" poster.

Yes, his mask often slips revealing his true nature

Knackeredknees wrote:what "Celts"? The ones conquered by the Romans, Vikings,Saxons,Normans and were treated as a sweetshop by the Galic Irish raiders and Picts from the north?

dumb statement

slartibartfast wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:what "Celts"? The ones conquered by the Romans, Vikings,Saxons,Normans and were treated as a sweetshop by the Galic Irish raiders and Picts from the north?

dumb statement

I know startibartfast but as a sarries supporter (not as vocal as beshocked)i'm sick and tired of us constantly being dismised by everyone and the same ols SAfeederclub/didntlooseanyplayerstoworldcup, halftruths constantly thrown at us, so i thought il'd throw one of my own back.

very childish but the poster deserved it,

Knackeredknees wrote:what "Celts"? The ones conquered by the Romans, Vikings,Saxons,Normans and were treated as a sweetshop by the Galic Irish raiders and Picts from the north?

You might want to do a history check. It was the Saxons who were conquered by the Vikings then Normans. The Saxon migrants(who were fleeing from the Huns at the time) were invited over after the Roman departure to fight the Picts back North. In return they were granted land. The Celts and some Irish joined the Norman way of life via marriage not conquest.

"Celts"? Well, the teams that play in the Celtic league, the ones that beat the English teams (not the South African ones) home and away this weekend AKA round one. Stay on topic next time because now you just look stupid.

Morgannwg wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:what "Celts"? The ones conquered by the Romans, Vikings,Saxons,Normans and were treated as a sweetshop by the Galic Irish raiders and Picts from the north?

You might want to do a history check. It was the Saxons who were conquered by the Vikings then Normans. The Saxon migrants(who were fleeing from the Huns at the time) were invited over after the Roman departure to fight the Picts back North. In return they were granted land. The Celts and some Irish joined the Norman way of life via marriage not conquest.

"Celts"? Well, the teams that play in the Celtic league, the ones that beat the English teams (not the South African ones) home and away this weekend AKA round one. Stay on topic next time because now you just look stupid.

Look we were all celts before the Romans, Wales/England/Scotland did not exsist just British Celts Harping on as if 2000yrs of history has not affected the area or people is being silly, as is the (not the South African ones) comment. Im sure your just as supportive as your team as i am of mine, just try to stop beating the nationialistic drum when decrying someone else of doing it

Is the Celtic League like the Arab League?

Which one is Syria?

Well Saracens crushed Treviso. So much for a shock....

Official MOM was Farrell but the unofficial MOM was James Short. He's absolute quality.

So strong. Made an incredible scything break soon before the first try.

Other players that stood out were Hayden Smith and Kelly Brown.

Saracens and Ospreys tied on six points due to Saracens LBP, Biaritz right behind on 5 points. Treviso still in this with two points from two games.

To be fair no side in this group looks much use.

Ospreys have patches of sublime skill but play hours of misguided, misfiring, badly lead rubbish.

Biarritz are starting to play now that their French RWC have bedded in better.

Saracens have done well to earn two bonus points.

Treviso are able to beat any of their group at home, though away they will continue to struggle.

Ospreys are uninspirational and not very intelligent to say the least. The draw works in Sarries favour now, because they could be heading out to Italy knowing a 5 pointer could give them top spot. Unless Ospreys can get a result in Watford or the Basque Region. Treviso playing like that should pick up at least one win at home, I'll put my money on it being Biarritz.

At least we got the losing bonus point. We really need to target the Ospreys. An away win in Swansea is essential.

Agree with Morgannwg - Sarries are starting to look good in this draw now.

Good summary Beshocked although it never ceases to amuse me how often Kelly Brown is not mentioned in any "strong and experienced contingent of foreigners" list. Venter and forwards coach Alex Sanderson mentioned in a recent interview how crucial he has been to the success of the pack and what an enormous coal face shift he always puts in.

Just saying, like.

Both Sarries and Ospreys will want to win both matches in December, else the table could look like:

BO 15pts, Sarries 11, Ospreys 10, Treviso 3

GeorgecarlinI think Kelly Brown is quality. Top bloke too. He is never mentioned as a foreigner because he isn't South African. I do appreciate his contribution.

I think he has been one of our most consistent and best performers. Should be Scotland's captain in my opinion.

True Londontiger. That's the likely result. You would expect home wins for Saracens and the O's.

What happens if Treviso beat Biarritz at home?

The table could look like

Sarries 11,Biarritz11,Ospreys 10, Treviso 7

That would be my ideal situation.

I dont think Sarries will get an easy ride at the Liberty. Ospreys were starting to click in bits and pieces and when they do they will be a team well worth supporting.

Treviso could obviously win all their home matches which will make the table look very tight at christmas.

No I don't think we'll have an easy ride at the Liberty either. The focus has to be on winning the two matches against the O's. We need to win the game at Wembley first though.