Was Ali nothing more than a lot of talent, with a big ego and mouth?

People on here will know I am pretty critical of Ali. Not as a boxer, but as a product, an image. There are way too many who swallow the Will Smith version of him. As talented as he was, he barracked so many people for using his "slave name", despite Cassius was given to him by his mother. Kind of disrespectful to drop the name his mother gave him, don't you think? His, now acknowledged lie about throwing his gold medal into the river etc. His insulting comments about Uncle Tom's to the "white man", despite his backers being white Georgian's and being an "Uncle Tom" to the NoI. His hating of his "racist" persicution, but yet his addressing the KKK on their mutual views... I could go on. Way too many hypocricies and inconsitencies to list.

In short, I still have issues with him. I acknowledge his huge boxing and promotional talent. I think his fortitude was immense and so respect that. I respect what he meant to the african american community who were desperate for a "proud" and exceptional talent. But, for me, the things that made him a "lesser man" was his treatment of those he felt superior to. In an ironic way, what he professed to be upset about. His bullying of Paterson was shameful and his treatment of Frazier disgusting. Watching Marvis last night hit the nail on the head and was telling. Ali publicly and shamelessly abused Frazier but never had the integrity to apologise in the same manner.

For me, he is like Malcolm X. Great speaker. Brash, arrogant and proud, what the african american community (needed) appreciated. But, like Malcolm X, he was wrong most of his life. In contrast, Martin Luther King was both a great oritor and, most importantly, RIGHT his entire life. For our S. Asian readers, like Ghandi and Bose. Bose offered a more proactive resistance but, ultimately was wrong and a fascist... kind of like the KKK ambassador Ali.....

Depends what you're asking. In terms of genuine legacy, ignoring mouth and hype I don't see that his record can be questioned. Not a heavyweight dead or alive can match his resume.

As for your views on Ali the man, fair point. I have plenty of time for him though. He grew up as a black kid in 1940's america. I don't know what that was like. I can appreciate why it would produce an angry and impressionable young man though. One of his quotes in later life was that the man who thinks the same way at 50 as he did at 20, has wasted 30 years of his life.

Personally I find it difficult to judge as I've never lived as a minority andwasn't alive when it was more of an issue. I've also never been thrust into world wide fame and stardom. Can any of us really relate?

I agree with the sentiment of this post. Unfortunately, Ali was brainwashed by a separatist, racist cult in the NOI.

But at the same time how many people did Ali inspire both boxing and non boxing wise!!

Ali was seriously ahead of his time great fighter and a great man he did have his faults as a young man but then what man doesnt.

paul12342 wrote:But at the same time how many people did Ali inspire both boxing and non boxing wise!!

Ali was seriously ahead of his time great fighter and a great man he did have his faults as a young man but then what man doesnt.

Agree 100% with the above.

never liked Ali much personality wise, obviously great boxer though.
but if you are going to start making profound statements like 'luther king was right' ..shows you dont know what you are talking about and probably not worth discussing on a boxing forum anyway.

Rather unfair - Ali's generosity has never been questioned and there are many people who found his honesty and forthrightness endearing. The KKK thing was in an Era of prejudice and he was unwilling to accept it peacefully and people are wont to do. Remember Mandela - the Terrorist? Armed leader of a gang that responded violently for equality - it was less a policy of racism than an angry backlash from oppressed youth.

Fact is - Ali grew up as he grew older and wiser - Whereas the bitter Frazier remained where he was. A great fighter no doubt and honest like you said but don't pretend as if he was the wronged party in this - he quite happily took the extra money the fight generated. He gave as good as he got - both in the ring and out of it. As for Floyd Patterson - if you make it about religion/religious war then no good will come out of it. Remember things were tongue in cheek before Patterson upped the ante.

Easy to sit back and argue now - not so easy when you are the one being vilified.

Ali did some horrible things but he grew out of them - interesting to see how many people came out of the woodwork after that ridiculously biased documentary. Just another attempt to make money/ratings of Ali's name - not the first and probably not the last.

Remember - A king can make one mistake in a life of good works and be vilified for it the rest of his life - a bully, a racist, A hypocrite but a thief can do one good deed and be remembered as a hero for the rest of his life because the king is looked up to and a thief looked down upon.

Stop blaming Ali for being human.

The guy has raised millions for charity.......Selflessly giving his time to good causes and visiting the sick both home and away...

The biggest character Boxing has ever seen...for me the best ever......

Everybody has their dark side and I believe he was so into the civil rights movement (which let's face it black people were shamelessly treated) that he poured scorn on those he thought were less committed!!!

If Frazier was bitter at some of the things Ali said then he should've just got over it..Life is too short!!!

I've been let down in my life and you just move on!!!!

Ali did/said some bad things but hey for me the good outweigh the bad and at the end of the day it's all you can ask of somebody!!!

I wrote this last night full of beer to be contraversial and expected a lot more defence than I got.

I wrote it more as a counter to some of the PR that has been perpetuated by Ali and his followers.

Shah - putting Ali and Mandela in the same breath is rather too complimentary to Ali. Although Mandela did stretch the truth at times (lording Haile etc.) he was invariably consistent in his views. Ali was frequently contradictory. It was his contradictions I was highlighting. You can't be held up as a "paragon" of civil rights when you supported an anti semitic group and gave sympathetic speaches to the KKK. He was against prejudice that he felt disadvantaged him but was surprisingly tolerant of prejudice that suited him. Sadly, all too common amonst those who profess a moral objection to prejudice. It is usually self serving.

In short Shah, you kind of make my point of the article. The period of Ali's life they venerate for his "moral" stands was actually just a period he was an angry young man etc. Thus my title.

Your points about Frazier and Patterson I don't really swallow. The trash talk aside, the fight against Patterson looked like the school bully picking on the school nerd. As for the Frazier. Yes, he felt bitter. But Ali's apologists don't answer the question. If he was a "great" man why, when he was so willing to slag Frazier off so publicly did he not apologise so comprehensively.

My point was, I think Ali is deified as a character and for his "morality"/stance against oppression when he was not shy to be a bully and side with prejudicial organisations, undermining his stand point.

Great boxer. Great self publicist. Great person... not so sure. More charasmatic self publicist who was able to distract people when he was in the limelight from his lack of consistency. Now it is over people are able to question this.

Sorry, I was rushing out when I wrote the reply.

Shah - your point about his "KKK thing" is so misguided. He was sent by the Nation to talk to the KKK about their similarities. What hypocricy!!! I am so disgusted about the prejudice I felt I am going to talk to the icons of that prejudice. But then, you put bedsheets and pillow cases on Elijah Mohammed and Farakhan and juxtapose black for white in their speeches and you'd swear they were grand wizards of the KKK. As I said, the problem with those who oppose "prejudice" are usually doing it for self serving rather than moral reasons, Ali included.

Frazier did harbour an unhealthy bitterness. But then the "greatest" didn't ever see it fit to atone for his comments as publicly and as emphatically as he made his denouncements. Frazier obviously saw that as not only cowardly, he also saw it as ungrateful given Frazier's support of Ali when Ali was in trouble (which nobody denies).

Patterson is another inconsistency of Ali. There is no doubt the predominantly strongly Christian black communities in America found Ali a bit of a traitor but Patterson never turned it into a religious war. Ali's main beef as I remember was the "slave name" BS. Again, a contradiction. He was named after his father (and a political figure). Only his surname was a "slave name". Most were just ridiculing him for this disingenous symbolism.

As for Ali's charitable donations. I've heard people talk of it and I don't deny they exist but not sure I've seen any evidence.

Truss - read above.

Floyd Patterson - A boxer and a gentleman - read it might give you a little insight into Fraziers refusal to fight in the heavy tournament. About 35 of my books caught fire when my old house burnt down and this is the only one i can recall with clarity - which contains both the american politics and boxing politics of the time.

must ask on the whole frazier/ali thing - why do you care there wasnt an apology? so what, get over it, have you never insulted someone you didnt like and not apologise? why is it such a big deal?

ali has done and said things - like anyone - not all of them right not all of them wrong - like a human. people can change there minds on things - change there opinions on things i have before on slightly controversial topics, it happens.

for all his faults he had a lot of great things everyone has faults but im sure you do good things aswell. i prefer to focus more on what people did well as human beings rather than what they did bad as everyone has done bad things. ali has worked so hard with an awful disease to help others less fortunate than himself with all sorts of charities turning peoples lives around, surely things like this in his character make the bad look not so bad... but horses for courses i guess.

personally i think if you look for bad things in someone hard enough you will almost certainly find them... however i would rather remember people for the good they did rather than scrutinise every questionable decision.

I love Floyd Patterson, but he doesn't get a carte blanche when it comes to Ali.

Patterson was seen as the acceptable black heavyweight champion in a divided America. An honest, decent, church going gentleman who was the antithesis of Sonny Liston. Courted by John F Kennedy, who begged him not to fight Liston, Patterson was loved by all.

When Ali changed his religion and his name Patterson did not only refuse to acknowledge his name but, rather, he also referred to Ali's religion as a ' menace.'

Ernie Terrell had known Ali during their amateur days. In the run in to the Ali v Terrell fight, Terrell mistakenly called Ali ' Cassius.' Seeing that it annoyed Ali, Terrell, by his own admission ( you can see it at youtube, ) quite deliberately continued to call him ' Cassius Clay ' to infuriate him and try to gain a psychological advantage.

Joe Frazier, visiting Nixon at the White House, is alleged to have told the President " Give him back his license and I'll beat him for you." Frazier is also on film ( probably also at youtube, ) saying " You can call him what you like. I call him Cassius Clay " and giggling like a schoolgirl.

Ali DID advocate segregation. He wanted a separate, but equal, black society because he didn't trust white America to allow equal and fair integration. Ali was not racist. He detested white AMERICANS but he did not detest whites in general. Interviews of the day confirm this.

This is an immensely complicated subject, and none of us is privy to all the salient details required to make an accurate judgement. Soundbites and snippets, whichever side they seem to support, can only serve to trivialise a huge issue and I, for one, am not comfortable in desecrating any man's reputation, be it Patterson's, Terrell's, Frazier's or Ali's, on such flimsy evidence.

Worth remembering, also, that Ali and Terrell were later very good friends who worked together in charity organizations, and also that Ali and Patterson became close friends. Patterson delighted, in later life, in the fact that he was one of the very few who could get away with calling Ali ' Cassius ' because, he told Ali, " It was the name your mother gave you."

Like the colour line issues 50 years before Ali's day am always a bit wary of being too critical of stances people maintained in very different times and circumstances through the relevant comfort of the 21st century. Easy to criticise Ali but we are never being told we can't eat in certain restaurants, told almost on a day to day basis we are second class citizens, how any of us react under such provocation is impossible for us to say.

Good to see so many sticking up for Ali. It has become ridiculously fashionable since the Thrillla documentary was shown for people to crticise Ali without necesarily being in posession of all of the facts of the man.

Yes, some of his actions do at times look morally questionable but as others have indicated, being a white man born into relative comfort in the late 70's in the United Kingdom puts me in a no position to judge fully the actions of a black man born in America in the early '40's.

One has to also take into account the amount of good that Ali has done, not just through his conscious acts but also just by being. He was source of inspiration to millions across the world in a way that no other sportsman and very few others have ever been.

Very good article presenting the case for Ali here :

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/0001-cliff.html

It does, regrettably, perpetuate the ' gold medal ' myth, but the rest of it holds up to scrutiny and historical analysis.

Ultimately, we will form our opinions - if we form opinions at all - on the basis of what we deem to be acceptable or unacceptable behaviour but there is no doubt, whatsoever, that Ali had genuine grievances and that some of his contemporaries, including Patterson, exploited them.

Too complicated for me. I prefer to simply accept that human beings will do good things and bad things and that none of us is exempt in that regard.

PS. I just realised that the final paragraph lends itself to misinterpretation, so I'd like to assure Happytravelling that I mean no disrespect whatsoever toward him or his article. I simply mean that the subject is too complex for ME.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Too complicated for me. I prefer to simply accept that human beings will do good things and bad things and that none of us is exempt in that regard.

That about sums it up for me Windy, unfortunately for Ali there has been such a deification process ongoing with him over a number of years, which peaked at the turn of the millenium when he regularly won the innumerable greatest ever sportsman polls that it would be nigh on impossible for anyone to live up to the standards people seemed to uphold him to because he is not a saint or a god amongst men, he is a human and like us all is capable of being insensitive, contradictory and sometimes downright spiteful. Does not make him a bad man just makes him human.

Absolutely, jeff.

One of the early ' Parkinson ' interviews was shocking, prompting Parkinson's father to ask him, later, " Why didn't you hit him?" ( as a Yorkshireman you'll appreciate that one, for sure, ) but in later interviews he and Parky got along just fine.

Ali was, lest we forget, only twenty two when he affiliated himself to the Nation of Islam. I'd hate to be judged for some of the things I said, did or believed during my twenties. Granted, he was a bit older and wiser by the time the Thrilla happened but, even then, it's not quite so cut and dried an issue as the documentary would have us believe.

My topic was deliberately contravertial and a counter to the usual diefication about him being a great libertarian.

Even the supporters have agreed with me that he was largely just an angry young man (with a big ego) and he wasn't really much of a moralist or ethicist at all...

Most "great" people try to make recompense for their misdemeanors. My point about Ali is, to my knowledge, he didn't or did so begrudgingly. I've never heard him say he felt meeting the KKK was a mistake etc. The hilarity is, nearly every single one of you would be very vocal in condemning anybody else who did the same. That is meet extremists and never issue a retraction or apology.

You all seem to make exception or overly empathise on this issue. If you have been the recipient of prejudice and wrongs, surely you should be able to see them when you perpetuate them? Just to illustrate that with a few points:

"Ali DID advocate segregation. He wanted a separate, but equal, black society because he didn't trust white America to allow equal and fair integration." The only reason the south manage to maintain is apartheid system was because they maintained the races were separate but equal. Why would Ali continue down that path?

"Ali was not racist. He detested white AMERICANS but he did not detest whites in general. Interviews of the day confirm this." Well, I don't seem to recollect Ali's mentor Elijah Mohammed being that specific when calling white people devils and the (first) Parky interview didn't seem that way either.

Another one example of people's "bias" is taking on board his "horror" about being called Cassius Clay. It surely must be the very worst in trash talk to call somebody by the name they were called for 22 years, their birth name! So what if Frazier called him it. Unless you (as he did) are trying to say the name of his father, the name his parents gave him is a deep insult... please! Its just more of the bravado and bluster. The PR and ego.

I have no problems acknowledging Ali for his ability, for his courage and determination. I have him as 2nd best HW in modern history (not being able to really judge Johnson or Sullivan). But, as a person, he was very much like everybody else. A bigger ego and an eye for PR, but like everybody else with the same weaknesses and inconsistencies.

Happytravelling, I do take exception to your presuming to know how I would react were this another person. That isn't yours to know.

As to the depth of Ali's being offended by the insistence of others to refer to him by his slave name that, also, is not yours to know. I grew up with Ali, and the civil rights struggles, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, etc., were bread and butter news for us on radio, television and in newspapers. Everybody knew the significance of the black man's struggle and the need for some to dissociate themselves from a history of slavery. I certainly don't know how Ali felt, though I can imagine how I would have felt, which is the best any of us can do.

Do these struggles serve as justification for Ali's anger or his subsequent words and actions? Of course not, and I never said that they did. They do, however, go some way toward explaining the fire which burned in Ali's belly.

Ali made it perfectly clear during one of his many interviews with Parkinson that his quarrels had been with white AMERICANS. I have the interview.

You mock those of us who have made a defence of Ali and imply that we are stupid and shallow enough to have been brainwashed yet you, yourself, have built your argument primarily upon a hopelessly one sided documentary.

I doubt that you were privy to the Clay / Ali of 1964, so perhaps a little less robust presentation of your argument would be in order. Ultimately, this boils down to opinion. I have been at pains not to ridicule yours and I feel it might be appropriate if you were to return the courtesy.

Seems to be an awful lot of mind reading going on here lately...

Still happytrav is passionnate about the subject... but.....here is my abbreviated take

Nobody seems to hold it against Hopkins for his racist remarks before Calzaghe....

Think Ali being larger than life is an easy target......

Perhaps he didn't apologise to Frazier etc because he didn't think it would be accepted....

He was a proud black Man in a very fraught time..

...nobody is perfect..

Truss - I wasn't mind reading. I am just pointing out the obvious. That people seem to show a real duplicity over their views on Ali.

I actually agree with everybody here. I think he was an angry young man etc. I agree he is up there as one of the best HW's of all time. I am just debunking his much vaulted position as a great civil rights proponent and libertarian. I am also highlighting people's duplicity wrt him.

How many on here would actually defend anybody who had endorsed or been a member of an extremist racist group? But however, people gladly make excuses for Ali for being a member of the NoI and courting the KKK.

No doubt Frazier hung on to that chip way too long to be healthy. But he was right, Ali did avoid apologising and never really gave as public and unreserved apology as he did assault on Frazier. And when you consider people jump to defend him being insulted about being called by his birth name! He was so disgusted by his "slave name" that when he actually chose a name for himself he called himself Cassius X...As I understood it, it was Elijah Mohammed who gave him the name Mohammed Ali. Perhaps he just prefered to be called he who was worthy of praise?...

There was lots born within that very fraught time. Martin Luther King and his hugh number of supporters chose to tread the more enlightened path and Ali chose to follow a bitter and racially charged organisation. Which is kind of my point. Someone who still treads the enlightened path in the face of persecution is great. Someone who succumbs to bitterness and base human emotions is just Human.

I think you have to look Ali as a boxer first and foremost. He wasnt an intellectual in his early twenties and he was to some extent impressionable and his status as a world champion athlete was exploited. Comparing him to somebody like Martin Luthar King is a bit off course for me. I dont think hes viewed in the same way.

I would probably echo what others have said in that it can be easily shown he wasnt perfect but theres no real getting away from his iconic status nor the fact he was human just like anyone else.

If the question is was Ali a Saint? Then the answer is no, he wasnt.

Manos - that pretty much is my view of him. I wrote this contentious article partially cos I was drunk but secondly to flush out these ambiguities/misrepresentations.

He was a very talented, angry, egotistical man who largely got caught up with a pretty dubious organisation. He said a lot of things. Most, I am pretty sure he didn't really think about. But in hindsight he was too arrogant/egotistical to retract. Not too disimilar to a lot of young men... only with a lot of talent and heart.

Windy - I could condescend to your comments in the same vain you have to me but wont. If you want to clarify your usual view toward those that affiliate themselves with racists organisations please do. But until then, please don't be glib and say I don't know how you feel. If you're going to make that statement, please clarify how you feel. Further, please don't pull the "you weren't there man" type comments. I was and I never fell for the "slave name" BS.. for all the reasons I've mentioned. I am sure, like many others, you also swallowed the throwing the medal in the river story... which we now know to be BS... And you're obviously right. I saw all this from a tv program.. I am sure all the arguments I've proposed are there somewhere...

And for the record. I don't take seriously what people say. I am sure nearly all that Ali said was ego and bluster. I take more seriously what people do. And, for me, courting an extremist, racist organisation because you feel they have sypathies with your position is a pretty extreme act. Hard to forgive without a request for forgiveness. Perhaps you have, but I have never heard him apologies for that.

I also saw his actions toward Patterson and Frazier to be less than humane and noble.

As I have more than adequately outlined above, the BS about being called by his birth name and then deliberately insulting his opponents etc. I can brush off. The slave name thing was total BS. Had no grounding.

I think he is the only African American in history that sees being called an Uncle Tom as being better than being called by the name they were born with.

becoming rather heated for no reason... lets take a chill pill and relax.

In short, yes. I don't consider Ali to be a great man. A great boxer, yes, but myths about people tend to grow up over years when they have departed.

John Lennon often gets heralded as a modern day saint because he wrote Imagine and was a peace activist, people quickly forget he was an adulterer who abandoned his first son, was prone to violent outbursts and 50% of the time was a grade A A-hole. Doesn't make him less of a great song writer, just not the man many hold him up to be. Likewise Ali, also an adulterer who held some questionable views and who said some of the most awful things to other people. No doubt he has learnt and grown with age, as do we all, but to me he's a sporting icon and nothing more.

To me great men are not formed of flawed celebs, but honest, hard working men like my father who work to raise and look after their family the right way, don't cheat or abuse anyone and always look out for their friends.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:In short, yes. I don't consider Ali to be a great man. A great boxer, yes, but myths about people tend to grow up over years when they have departed.

John Lennon often gets heralded as a modern day saint because he wrote Imagine and was a peace activist, people quickly forget he was an adulterer who abandoned his first son, was prone to violent outbursts and 50% of the time was a grade A A-hole. Doesn't make him less of a great song writer, just not the man many hold him up to be. Likewise Ali, also an adulterer who held some questionable views and who said some of the most awful things to other people. No doubt he has learnt and grown with age, as do we all, but to me he's a sporting icon and nothing more.

To me great men are not formed of flawed celebs, but honest, hard working men like my father who work to raise and look after their family the right way, don't cheat or abuse anyone and always look out for their friends.

This pretty much sums it for me. I think his mystique has grown so much over the years that it can be easy to lose sight of what his reason for being was. Boxing. Inside the ring, he was one of the bravest fighters that we have had the fortune to see. Hugley talented and a CV almost without equal, but as a man, he made mistakes. Don't we all though? I am sure he must look back with some regret over his actions, especially in light in recent events, but who are we to judge a young impressionable guy who grew up under very different circumstances to everyone on here.

Regarding the Lennon comparison, I feel very much the same about Princess Diana. Our abiding image of her is wearing protective clothing in a mine field. But lets face it, there wasn't a mine within a mile of Diana and I would have let my kids play football on that patch of ground, it would have been swept so much. She was an adulterer in the same way her husband was. Her team were also hugely influential manipulators of the media, blinding us to all her charity work when in reality, there are people round the world who do more charitable work in a week than she did in her 'career'. Anyway that was a rant and off topic, but I feel better now.

Happytravelling wrote:Manos - that pretty much is my view of him. I wrote this contentious article partially cos I was drunk but secondly to flush out these ambiguities/misrepresentations.

He was a very talented, angry, egotistical man who largely got caught up with a pretty dubious organisation. He said a lot of things. Most, I am pretty sure he didn't really think about. But in hindsight he was too arrogant/egotistical to retract. Not too disimilar to a lot of young men... only with a lot of talent and heart.

Windy - I could condescend to your comments in the same vain you have to me but wont. If you want to clarify your usual view toward those that affiliate themselves with racists organisations please do. But until then, please don't be glib and say I don't know how you feel. If you're going to make that statement, please clarify how you feel. Further, please don't pull the "you weren't there man" type comments. I was and I never fell for the "slave name" BS.. for all the reasons I've mentioned. I am sure, like many others, you also swallowed the throwing the medal in the river story... which we now know to be BS... And you're obviously right. I saw all this from a tv program.. I am sure all the arguments I've proposed are there somewhere...

I believe you misunderstood me, Happytravelling. Perhaps it's my fault in not making myself clear.

I certainly wasn't putting your opinions down, but merely amplifying the point that I actually agree with much of what you say. Ali was a flawed, impressionable, angry young man who believed that his affiliation to parties who encouraged segregation was right and proper, and he believed that he was justified in his treatment of Patterson, Terrell and Frazier. I merely intended to highlight the fact that human beings will find reasons for unacceptable behaviour, and that Patterson, Terrell and Frazier also played their part in that process. The difference, of course, is that Patterson, Terrell and Frazier have not been deified in the manner which Ali has.

Neither did I wish to imply that you weren't there to witness this play out. My point was that I was and I still don't wholly understand the ramifications of it all.

One issue upon which I will defend Ali, though, is that concerning his sincerity. Few men would sacrifice their livelihood and reputation for over three years for the sake of a whim. Misguided or not, Ali stood for his principles. Also, his abhorrence of his ' slave name ' is open to interpretation. If we imagine a young lady of twenty two who falls in love with a young man, only to be told that he is a menace, inherently bad, etc., etc., and then, after marrying him, finds that neither friends nor family nor the world at large will endorse her marriage or refer to her by her married name, I believe we can guess that she would be grievously hurt.

Other than these details, our views are remarkably similar ; Ali was a great fighter, but a flawed human being just like everybody else, and some of his tirades were an utter disgrace.

I'm afraid that I did feel that your response to my original post was somewhat dismissive, and that I was momentarily irritated, but I'm happy to put that down to misunderstanding. Text, after all, has no tone. I'm also happy to take responsibility for such misunderstanding, and to offer you a sincere apology for having offended you. You have my word that this was not my intention.

HumanWindmill wrote:I believe you misunderstood me, Happytravelling. Perhaps it's my fault in not making myself clear.

I certainly wasn't putting your opinions down, but merely amplifying the point that I actually agree with much of what you say. Ali was a flawed, impressionable, angry young man who believed that his affiliation to parties who encouraged segregation was right and proper, and he believed that he was justified in his treatment of Patterson, Terrell and Frazier. I merely intended to highlight the fact that human beings will find reasons for unacceptable behaviour, and that Patterson, Terrell and Frazier also played their part in that process. The difference, of course, is that Patterson, Terrell and Frazier have not been deified in the manner which Ali has.

Neither did I wish to imply that you weren't there to witness this play out. My point was that I was and I still don't wholly understand the ramifications of it all.

One issue upon which I will defend Ali, though, is that concerning his sincerity. Few men would sacrifice their livelihood and reputation for over three years for the sake of a whim. Misguided or not, Ali stood for his principles. Also, his abhorrence of his ' slave name ' is open to interpretation. If we imagine a young lady of twenty two who falls in love with a young man, only to be told that he is a menace, inherently bad, etc., etc., and then, after marrying him, finds that neither friends nor family nor the world at large will endorse her marriage or refer to her by her married name, I believe we can guess that she would be grievously hurt.

Other than these details, our views are remarkably similar ; Ali was a great fighter, but a flawed human being just like everybody else, and some of his tirades were an utter disgrace.

I'm afraid that I did feel that your response to my original post was somewhat dismissive, and that I was momentarily irritated, but I'm happy to put that down to misunderstanding. Text, after all, has no tone. I'm also happy to take responsibility for such misunderstanding, and to offer you a sincere apology for having offended you. You have my word that this was not my intention.

For me, as a massive Frazier fan - Ali gets let off lightly. I don't doubt his sincerity at all - as he tended to follow through with everything he held firmly in his heart.

However - his talk to the KKK should earn him more criticism. Frazier is roundly abused for publicly stating that he was hoping Ali would have fallen into the Olympic flame in Atlanta. Which is worse? And lest we forget - Ali betrayed Frazier, in one of the most shame-faced betrayals of the past.

I appreciate that not all people see the Ali-Frazier issue as so black and white - however, even the most skillful Ali apologist cannot say Frazier deserved to be treated as he did. Frazier helped Ali financially and he wanted him to get his belt back. Sure, he said "give him his belt back and I'll whip him for you" - because he wanted his legitimacy as a champion - that isn't wrong. However - Frazier's kids were bullied and beaten at school for Ali's abuse. Frazier was disliked in the Black community because of the abuse. Frazier left boxing and boxing largely forgot him. So much of this was down to Ali.

Hard to argue against any of that, oxy.

My stance was that Ali was a young, impressionable, pretty much uneducated man who sincerely believed what he said. I do feel that others fanned the flames and exacerbated the situation, but there is no doubt that Ali's responses were disproportionate.

As I say, my views are very similar, in principle, to yours and Happytravelling's, even if there are some minor disagreements as to detail.

It's just a pity that I made such a hash of conveying it.

Tone is always hard to read on internet posts. Obviously, no-one meant for the debate to get personal.
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Slightly tangentially...

Does anyone else think that Ali's ghost has curse boxing - and certainly the heavyweight scene for the next 30 years?

Too many fighters try to talk like him, when they're not as funny.

Too many heavyweights are judged by him - when they're not as good. The abuse Tyson Fury receives - it seems to me his failing is that he isn't Ali. When he never would be - he's 6'9 and 30 pounds bigger - he should be aiming towards a slightly more skilful version of Carnera, not Ali.

As for the "chat" - sometimes, it would be engaging for a boxer to just be humble. Sure, if there's genuine spice a la Cotto/Margarito - then say what you will. Their face off, kindly posted by Scott, was a thing of beauty.

However - Fury Chisora? Bellew Cleverly? Sometimes - its quite nice to have a boxer like Manny; humble, respectful and supremely talented (recent results notwithstanding).

oxring wrote:
Does anyone else think that Ali's ghost has curse boxing - and certainly the heavyweight scene for the next 30 years?

Too many fighters try to talk like him, when they're not as funny.

Boxers were bad mouthing each other long before Ali arrived on the scene.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:
Does anyone else think that Ali's ghost has curse boxing - and certainly the heavyweight scene for the next 30 years?

Too many fighters try to talk like him, when they're not as funny.

Boxers were bad mouthing each other long before Ali arrived on the scene.

Not as well. The zeitgeist of the 60s was anti-establishment - and Ali exemplified that perfectly. If ever a man could capture the spirit of public feeling and make it flesh - it was him.

Previous "bad mouthing" was less publicised. Baer offering to take "care" of Braddock's wife once he'd beaten him (may/may/not have happened) - but didn't make front page news. Ali punching a gorilla, calling Frazier an Uncle Tom - that did.

oxring wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:
Does anyone else think that Ali's ghost has curse boxing - and certainly the heavyweight scene for the next 30 years?

Too many fighters try to talk like him, when they're not as funny.

Boxers were bad mouthing each other long before Ali arrived on the scene.

Not as well. The zeitgeist of the 60s was anti-establishment - and Ali exemplified that perfectly. If ever a man could capture the spirit of public feeling and make it flesh - it was him.

Previous "bad mouthing" was less publicised. Baer offering to take "care" of Braddock's wife once he'd beaten him (may/may/not have happened) - but didn't make front page news. Ali punching a gorilla, calling Frazier an Uncle Tom - that did.

Developments in media distribution.

oxring wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:
Does anyone else think that Ali's ghost has curse boxing - and certainly the heavyweight scene for the next 30 years?

Too many fighters try to talk like him, when they're not as funny.

Boxers were bad mouthing each other long before Ali arrived on the scene.

Not as well. The zeitgeist of the 60s was anti-establishment - and Ali exemplified that perfectly. If ever a man could capture the spirit of public feeling and make it flesh - it was him.

Previous "bad mouthing" was less publicised. Baer offering to take "care" of Braddock's wife once he'd beaten him (may/may/not have happened) - but didn't make front page news. Ali punching a gorilla, calling Frazier an Uncle Tom - that did.

Zeitgeist. Love it.

It has probably been amplified since Ali, but it would still have happened/be happening whether or not Ali had been around. It is two men preparing to fight, they will always bad mouth each other. Ego's and instinct take over. I love some of the trash talking that goes on, and in someone like Hopkin's case, I believe it has, in the past, given him a genuine advantage over his opponent. Obviously sometimes it is boorish (that's for you jeff) and juvenile, but in general, it is normally pretty harmless and I wouldn't go as far as calling Ali a curse on the heavyweight division.

Ali wasnt initially all the popular or deemed charismatic though. He was actually pretty unpopular for most of the 60s. His links to radical movements were also heavily criticised at the time. His fight against Liston was basically an unpopularity contest going into it. It was really only when opinion in America began to swing against the Vietnam War that Ali began being seen in a more sympathetic light.

It is worth recognising aswell that he did lose 4 years of arguably his peak years for his beliefs and refusal to compromise on them so its probably a little unfair to paint him as purely egotistical and self serving, or that the bogus gold medal story indicates he was completely fraudulent in that regard.

There's a lot of nonsense written on this thread which should be clarified. In the 1960s then Ali spoke with the KKK, there was little seperating the KKK from mainstream white America. The only difference is that the KKK were more honest abut their belief.

Personally I grew up in S.Africa under apartheid in a Township in the cape Flats, so have a far better understanding of what Ali went through than all y'all white liberals on here. Racism is poison. To be told from day 1, that you are not as good as a boer damages the mind and spirit. Then to have someone like Elijah Muhammed tell you that you are not only as good but better, will make an impressionable young black man listen and pay attention. I grew up reading banned writings of Bantu Stephen Bike (see cry freedom for an appalling portrayal of him to suit white western liberal tastes). It made an impression on me. I joined a banned group called AZPLO (Azania People's Liberation Organisation). Together with the Pan Arfican Congress we had a saying "One settler, One bullet".

White South Aficans were my sworn enemies. Whites from outside were not.

Since the end of apartheid over 4000 white boer farmers have been killed. Will I shed a tear over them. Not a chance. They still are my sworn enemy and there is no forgiveness. When I hear a boer accent, I clench my fist. An auto response.

So all you mofo's out there who criticise Ali for talking to the KKK in the time when the difference between white america and the KKK was spelling think again.

As for his dealing with Patterson. He deserved the beating he got. Patterson was a genuine and bonafide Uncle Tom. Terrell wasn't and wanted to get under lai's skin. He got a severe beating. As for Frazier. Much respect to him. Ali went OTT.

But having said all that Rocky was a nice guy and would have beaten all of them, solved racism. He was that good.

Adios peeps. Off on my travels again!

Azania! welcome back for however long it may be!

azania wrote:

Good to see you back az. Even if fleeting.

Ditto, az.

Great to see you contributing.

Comment on the thread please and stop diverting

Rocky was.....Ooops wrong thread.

Azania good to see you back, does mean though that the Rocky Marciano tribute thread I have spent the morning preparing may have to be shelved.

rowley wrote:Azania good to see you back, does mean though that the Rocky Marciano tribute thread I have spent the morning preparing may have to be shelved.

He's gone again mate. Publish away.

rowley wrote:Azania good to see you back, does mean though that the Rocky Marciano tribute thread I have spent the morning preparing may have to be shelved.

Go ahead mate. Whilst you're at it, do a fantasy fight between jeffries and Herbie Hide lol

Good to see you posting again Az. Hope you stick around.

Predictable is good, Shah. It's safe and believe me, it drives the ladies wild!

Erm lads, out of respect to the op, can we keep this on topic please.

There has to be intent for murder to be proven.

Or wilful recklessness.

To veer back on track, I think there was more to Ali than a lot of talent, a big ego and mouth. There was clearly some substance to someone who was prepared to give up the best years of his career and to risk imprisonment in order to stand up for his beliefs. Lets face it, his time in the army would have been a cushy number and he wasn't going to be put on the front line. The refusal to go was far more courageous than him agreeing to something he didn't believe in.

Temporarily locked the thread whilst I split the off topic posts and move them to trash talk.