Was Ali nothing more than a lot of talent, with a big ego and mouth?

First topic message reminder :

People on here will know I am pretty critical of Ali. Not as a boxer, but as a product, an image. There are way too many who swallow the Will Smith version of him. As talented as he was, he barracked so many people for using his "slave name", despite Cassius was given to him by his mother. Kind of disrespectful to drop the name his mother gave him, don't you think? His, now acknowledged lie about throwing his gold medal into the river etc. His insulting comments about Uncle Tom's to the "white man", despite his backers being white Georgian's and being an "Uncle Tom" to the NoI. His hating of his "racist" persicution, but yet his addressing the KKK on their mutual views... I could go on. Way too many hypocricies and inconsitencies to list.

In short, I still have issues with him. I acknowledge his huge boxing and promotional talent. I think his fortitude was immense and so respect that. I respect what he meant to the african american community who were desperate for a "proud" and exceptional talent. But, for me, the things that made him a "lesser man" was his treatment of those he felt superior to. In an ironic way, what he professed to be upset about. His bullying of Paterson was shameful and his treatment of Frazier disgusting. Watching Marvis last night hit the nail on the head and was telling. Ali publicly and shamelessly abused Frazier but never had the integrity to apologise in the same manner.

For me, he is like Malcolm X. Great speaker. Brash, arrogant and proud, what the african american community (needed) appreciated. But, like Malcolm X, he was wrong most of his life. In contrast, Martin Luther King was both a great oritor and, most importantly, RIGHT his entire life. For our S. Asian readers, like Ghandi and Bose. Bose offered a more proactive resistance but, ultimately was wrong and a fascist... kind of like the KKK ambassador Ali.....

Threads split.

The comments about war etc are here for discussion: https://www.606v2.com/t18572-war-chat

Can we please keep this thread for the issues about Ali.

Thanks

sorry, been busy.

Windy, no probs... its all part of a debate. I agree. Our difference are one of subtlety rather than insurmountable issues. He was mouthy, impetuous and egotistical. Which largely led to him saying things he couldn't bring himself to retract... Which gave us the paterson, frazier and the vietnam situation. I just think too much empathy is given to Ali and not enough for his foes... like Oxy.

Oxy - you voice my opinion. Perhaps a bit more eliquantly. As much as Ali deserves credit for his fights against liston, Frazier and Foreman, his behaviour outside the ring deserves more criticism.

azania - You're just funny. I am sure Nelson Mandela comes to you for advice.. I remember, just before Mandela adressed the AP him saying "racism is poison"... I am awaiting your article for why Paterson was an uncle tom and why Ali, funded by white georgians, then slave to the NoI wasn't...

Which brings me on to Oxy's last comment. I think Ali was slightly corrosive. There is a vein running through African (american) culture that loves excessive macho bravado etc. over substance.

Ali deserves credit for being at least funny with his barbs and others just pale imitations, there is also a slightly deeper issue that it set African American culture on the trajectory of crotch groping machismo that it is still to come out of.. ironically, that new wave black american culture has surpassed....

Just realised that azania might be genuine and not a wum. To put things succinctly. You can't be against racism but then side with racists, empathise with racist organisations or voice extremist racist views.. even if they are against boers.. At the very least, its hypocricy. At the very worst it shows you might be a racist just not happy that the your societies racism doesn't benefit you. The NoI reaks of being the latter. Anti semitic and, could be argued, anti white.

The problem with prejudice is that most people are. They just only get upset when they feel they are suffering as a consequence. Nearly all are totally unaware of the prejudices they benefit from My ex was Indian. Being an Indian woman she was a verciferous feminist... but get her on the subject of untouchables and she had no sympathy what so ever...

Hi guys, long time reader here but this is my first post.

For the people bashing Ali for joining the NOI, think about it like this, your whole life you have been told that you are not good enough, that you are not as good as us whites so you can't eat in here or you can't go there. Then along comes this group of people who say to you that you are good enough, in fact you are even better than them. It kind of makes sense that you would want to join that group or you would at least seriously consider it. Of course with the benefit of hindsight we know that it was ultimately due to the peaceful efforts of MLK which brought about change. But people back then saw through out the years before there were many black leaders who sought change through peace such as Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. DuBois. They saw that these leaders failed or brought minimal change, so who can blame them when they decide to push for more radical methods.

When it comes to Ali talking to the KKK, you have to take into consideration that the whole of white America back then was racist. So now you have two options stay with the system that you are in at the mo, the government who say that everybody is equal but you have seen throughout your life that this is not the case. On the other hand you have a group who are blatantly racist and are proud of it but they say to you just stay away from us and we will leave you alone. Which group or system would you choose?

To put things succinctly. You can't be against racism but then side with racists, empathise with racist organisations or voice extremist racist views

Ah so you expect every black person to be like MLK. Tell me something. After 9/11, why didn't America go on a peace march, holding hands saying out loud "We shall overcome someday". But the thing is, for black americans, they had been singing the same song for 400 years and their voices became horse, the soles of their feet hard as leather for walking so much. When all white America (bar a few) were racists why talk to the rcists who speak with forked tongues? Who can blame any black american who heard Elijah Muhammed describe the white man as a devil and agreeing with him? Why not talk to the devil directly?

Ali wasn't misguided. He was a product of the times. The hate that hate produced. The moral high ground is often hard to walk when your feet are bleeding.

There is a vein running through African (american) culture that loves excessive machobravado etc. over substance

Unbelievable. Such generalisation is not only completely wrong, who can be viewed as racist in itself. Methinks you watch MTV Bass and assume that is African America in minature. Absolutely ridiculous.

AThere is a vein running through African (american) culture that loves excessive macho bravado etc. over substance.

Patterson said Ali should be grateful for the opportunities America gave him. Now you tell me if you dont find that comment disgusting. Could ALi go anywhere he wanted to have a meal? Moreover Ali took his opportunities through his own blood, sweat and hard work. America was not taking the punches in the head. Ali was.

Under apartheid, there were some blacks who were millionaires. They mostly lived in Soweto. Should they be grateful for apartheid?

there is also a slightly deeper issue that it set African American culture on the trajectory of crotch groping machismo that it is still to come out of.. ironically, that new wave black american culture has surpassed....

Incredible.

Happytravelling wrote:Truss - I wasn't mind reading. I am just pointing out the obvious...There was lots born within that very fraught time. Martin Luther King and his hugh number of supporters chose to tread the more enlightened path and Ali chose to follow a bitter and racially charged organisation. Which is kind of my point. Someone who still treads the enlightened path in the face of persecution is great. Someone who succumbs to bitterness and base human emotions is just Human.

But you have been mind-reading. You're also projecting your own views on to history. Few would argue that Martin Luther King's approach to racism in America is more praiseworthy than, say, Ali's or Malcolm X's. However, would the civil rights movement have progressed without people willing to forcibly defend their rights? Look at apartheid in South Africa. Had the black population meekly protested then nothing would have happened. How can you assume the same wouldn't have been true in the USA? Nonviolent resistance is admirable, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily achieve the desired outcome.

Just as you feel others want to place him in a pedestal, so you are guilty of the opposite by ignoring his qualities. Worse, you do so deliberately: "As for Ali's charitable donations. I've heard people talk of it and I don't deny they exist but not sure I've seen any evidence." No one suggests that Ali is perfect as a man. Rather, I think he's seen as one of the greatest and most charismatic boxers there's ever been. I think most people recognise his flaws, but think that, on balance, his qualities outweighed them.

Happytravelling wrote:Ali deserves credit for being at least funny with his barbs and others just pale imitations, there is also a slightly deeper issue that it set African American culture on the trajectory of crotch groping machismo that it is still to come out of.. ironically, that new wave black american culture has surpassed....

This just racist nonsense. Think you gave yourself away a bit there.

AK on sun - I sympathise with you trying to empathise. But lets empathise with the Boers. Foreigners in Africa etc... can you see where this is going? We can all play the empathy game. But you have to hold people to account for their inconsistencies and hypocricies. Otherwise your just guilty of accepting their prejudice against another out of political correctness.

Azania - I struggle to take you seriously. MLK had way more followers than the NoI. So, millions agreed with him. A minority, including Ali, agreed with the NoI. He was in a minority. Deliberately taking an angry line. But openly criticising how badly he had been treated. Offended by racism against him, but OK with anti semetism and racism..... If you're going to be vocal and critical you should at least think more deeply or you look foolish.... What is your point?
"Unbelievable. Such generalisation is not only completely wrong, who can be viewed as racist in itself. Methinks you watch MTV Bass and assume that is African America in minature. Absolutely ridiculous." No, I've lived in African American neighbourhoods... dated African American and Black American girls... And seen all sides... you? If you had you may realise that many African Americans realise the disparity in social issues comes from an ongoing legacy/persecution complex. Its why "new" immigrant black america over achieves on all social indicators compared to the traditional African American population.
There is a huge difference between traditional African American and the "new" immigrant black population. Its why Obama has such a problem. He is "new" immigrant black. Its why Jessie Jackson was caught on camera saying "why does he talk down to us black folk"... its why the NAACP endorsed Hillary Clinton as being "black" enough for them and Obama too "white".
"Under apartheid, there were some blacks who were millionaires. They mostly lived in Soweto. Should they be grateful for apartheid?". One of greatest black exponents of aparthied was Nelson Mandela's cousin. The King of the Transkai. But yet, Mandela was pretty consistent.

If "the whole of white America" was racist the end of segregation would never have happened. You over simplify. Like SA, there were always empathisers who did not benefit from emancipation but still persued it. And if the general population weren't at least apathetic (more commonly sympathetic) it wouldn't have happened. That's a statement of fact not conjecture.

"Had the black population meekly protested then nothing would have happened. How can you assume the same wouldn't have been true in the USA? Nonviolent resistance is admirable, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily achieve the desired outcome." where do I start? Non violent struggle did succeed in America and India. There is absolutely no evidence that violent struggle in SA changed the system. It was largely attrition, sanctions and the total denial or reality. There was no correlation. Violence didn't esculate leading to the end of aparteid. And the same in the US. the Northern states of the US had long abandoned aparthied. Most believed it was in the constitution that "all men were free"... although you can debate that. The South just hung on claiming everybody was seperate but equal. It was when somebody highlighted that the amount spent per black student was significantly less than for a white student it really highlighted the racism etc. That is why Ali's "seperate but equal" logic is so flawed.

Fearless Bamber - please don't just give unsubstantiated nonsense as a statement. The differential between traditional African American depravation and new wave black immigrant prosperity has been, granted speculatively, attributed to contemporary African American male culture being based on "rap culture" etc. But it has its roots in Ali's arrogant, beligerance... Give yourself away here... ;-)

Happy

Boers have been in SA for over 400 years. They are just as African as I am. They are not foreigners. Much as I dislike them, they are African. So example is as ridiculous as can be.

So what if MLK had more followers than the NoI. Not all black people are the same of think alike. Do all white people vote Tory? The NoI has its place and its followers were not brainwashed or stupid but rejectionists who rejected white America and all it stood for. People react to oppression in many ways and I for one would never criticise an oppressed person for being angry when I'm sittign comfortably in my ivory tower.

Oh so you lived in African American and had some African American trim. Good for you. Mrs Az is African American. Her parents wore out their shoes walking up and down the street of Atlanta also. Do I get brownie points? I dont think they are crotch grabbing people either. But you never know. I dont see them all the time. I'll ask them when they get here on 23rd Dec for Xmas. They are as traditional Af Am as you can get with soul food et al. Perhaps they are not traditional enough and are Uncle Toms because I doubt they dont grab their crotch.

Mate, you're a joke. Sorry but its the kindest thing I can say to you. Moreover this is a boxing board and we should stick to boxing. I'll do so whilst grabbing my crotch also.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

Happytravelling wrote:Truss - I wasn't mind reading. I am just pointing out the obvious...There was lots born within that very fraught time. Martin Luther King and his hugh number of supporters chose to tread the more enlightened path and Ali chose to follow a bitter and racially charged organisation. Which is kind of my point. Someone who still treads the enlightened path in the face of persecution is great. Someone who succumbs to bitterness and base human emotions is just Human.

But you have been mind-reading. You're also projecting your own views on to history.

Had the black population meekly protested then nothing would have happened.

As, incidentally are you - judging by the quote in italics.

I don't want to get involved in this debate again - having done it to death with azania once before. My opinion remains unchanged regarding violent protest and Ali was as incredibly talented and thoroughly quick witted, insensitive, charismatic, unpleasant dichotomous individual as history has come across.

oxring wrote:

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

Happytravelling wrote:Truss - I wasn't mind reading. I am just pointing out the obvious...There was lots born within that very fraught time. Martin Luther King and his hugh number of supporters chose to tread the more enlightened path and Ali chose to follow a bitter and racially charged organisation. Which is kind of my point. Someone who still treads the enlightened path in the face of persecution is great. Someone who succumbs to bitterness and base human emotions is just Human.

But you have been mind-reading. You're also projecting your own views on to history.

Had the black population meekly protested then nothing would have happened.

As, incidentally are you - judging by the quote in italics.

I don't want to get involved in this debate again - having done it to death with azania once before. My opinion remains unchanged regarding violent protest and Ali was as incredibly talented and thoroughly quick witted, insensitive, charismatic, unpleasant dichotomous individual as history has come across.

Point of clarification. The NoI have never been involved in violent protests and do not advocate violent protests. They support self defence and not turning the other cheek.

Sorted.

ps - Ali was not unpleasant.

Azania - "Do all white people vote Tory?". Poor analogy. No, some vote labour... but they equally condemn those who vote BNP etc. You are trying to trivialise Ali's support for an anti semitic and racist organisation. Trying to trivialise the fact he was so appalled by his racist treatment, he addressed the very organisations that opitomised that racist treatment and told them he supported them. You try to hard to make excuses. Your argument seems to be, if you are treated badly you're quite entitled to hold the converse opinion and the magnitude of your treatment is proportionate the magnatude of your counter reaction. I absolutely disagree. If you're going to be "appalled" by your treatment and view it as ignorant, its encombent on you to be more enlightened. Otherwise you're just saying you are the polar opposite of you oppressor. The same, just opposite. You seem to be saying you are a boer in black skin. Capable of the same insecurities.

"Point of clarification. The NoI have never been involved in violent protests and do not advocate violent protests. They support self defence and not turning the other cheek.". Poor and weak justification for Elijah Mohammed using the phrase "white devil" and Farrakhan saying the only thing Hitler did wrong was lose... language that would have castergated and isolated many a organisation for being racist and anti semitic. Yes, I know Farrakhan has ricocheted between being anti semitic to road to demascus moments at least twice. But their comments are incendury. You can't deny it. All you can do is make excuses for them.

Azania logic. Its OK for Nick Griffin to have his opinions if he was picked on by black kids as a child....

Azania, keep hold of you brains mate ;-)

Why do you hate him so much? You tend to go out of your way to criticize him

Shah - I don't hate anybody. Just won't let anybody make excuses for their petty prejudices.

If you read through the threads I explicitly state I admire many of Ali's qualities as a boxer, and even as a man. He has awesome fortitude. But I won't buy into the fact he was some sort of pioneer of racial equality. I think he was largely an ego etc. Well, you can read what I said earlier.

Happytravelling wrote:Azania - "Do all white people vote Tory?". Poor analogy. No, some vote labour... but they equally condemn those who vote BNP etc. You are trying to trivialise Ali's support for an anti semitic and racist organisation. Trying to trivialise the fact he was so appalled by his racist treatment, he addressed the very organisations that opitomised that racist treatment and told them he supported them. You try to hard to make excuses. Your argument seems to be, if you are treated badly you're quite entitled to hold the converse opinion and the magnitude of your treatment is proportionate the magnatude of your counter reaction. I absolutely disagree. If you're going to be "appalled" by your treatment and view it as ignorant, its encombent on you to be more enlightened. Otherwise you're just saying you are the polar opposite of you oppressor. The same, just opposite. You seem to be saying you are a boer in black skin. Capable of the same insecurities.

"Point of clarification. The NoI have never been involved in violent protests and do not advocate violent protests. They support self defence and not turning the other cheek.". Poor and weak justification for Elijah Mohammed using the phrase "white devil" and Farrakhan saying the only thing Hitler did wrong was lose... language that would have castergated and isolated many a organisation for being racist and anti semitic. Yes, I know Farrakhan has ricocheted between being anti semitic to road to demascus moments at least twice. But their comments are incendury. You can't deny it. All you can do is make excuses for them.

Exactly some white people voted labour, lib dems etc. Likewise some white people supported MLK and his methods and others didn't/ Cant black people think as diversely as other groups? Should all black people follow the one man? Does it matter if the NoI had fewer followers than MLK? Ali's support for the NoI was a reality for his times. When the majority of people are oppressing you and there's one group telling you that not only are you their equal, but you are actually better than they are. I can see the attractiveness of that to the world#s best boxer who was better than all others before him. If all black people were like Floyd Patterson, Obama would not have been elected.

If you are in a racist country, why not speak to the people who epitomised that racism? Why speak to those who disliked you but would tolerate you? I fond that patronising.

Most people were appalled by 9/11? What was the enlightened approach? What was the enlightened approach for Hitler? I'd like your answer to that. Sometimes you have no choice but to stand up and be a man. ALi chose that and so did MLK in his own was. Patterson didn't.

Elijah calling white men devils is not a violent statement or a call to violence. Extremely weak example and stupid analogy. You are reaching there. Also I'd like to read that comment by Farrakhan because frankly is it a bs lie. He has never said that about Hitler. When Khalid Muhammed made an odious anti semitic comment, he was immediately fired as the minister of communication of the NoI. No questions.

Farrakhan's comments may be incendury to white folks who are insecure, but to black people they are plain truths without being dressed up. Once again, no calls to violence. When you call the people who have been lynching you for 400 years, devils, I call that mild criticism. Should blacks be thankful for being dragged from Africa as slaves and thankful for Jim Crow and apologise if white folks are offended by justifiable anger.

Ali may have been naieve in many ways. But who isn't at the age of 22? His crimes for you may be serious, but for me I see no crime. A great man and an even better boxer. He brought the civil rights struggle to international attention far better than MLK because few people in the vilages of Ghana knew who MLK was, but everyone knew who Muhamm,ed Ali was and why he was stripped of his title.

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, keep hold of you brains mate ;-)

Thanks for your concern. But you will never find me a House N. INo Uncle Toms here sunshine. Whilst I keep tight hold of my brains, please look for yours. Its gone missing.

Happytravelling wrote:Azania logic. Its OK for Nick Griffin to have his opinions if he was picked on by black kids as a child....

If his great great great grandparents, his great great grandparents, his great grand[arents, his grandparents, hisparents and himself were all kicked by blacks and the blacks supported the kicking and encouraged more kicking because he disapproved that kicking, then yes he would be 100% entitled to dislike any black person he met and to refer to them as devils.

If your example as to why Ali joined the NoI was because he was picked on as a child, then dont bother look for your brains. You never had one to lose.

ShahenshahG wrote:Why do you hate him so much? You tend to go out of your way to criticize him

He always posted the same twaddle on the old 606.

Although the Daily Mail-esque stereotyping of "African-Americans" as "crotch grabbers" is a relatively new addition.

Troll or not best ignored imo.

Azania - sorry. Yes, everybody can have diverse opinions. But people with a prejudicial agenda, black or white, will get my disapproval. BNP or NoI. I don't discriminate. However, those that do with their prejudice will always be called hypocrit and should be challenged. Its the crux of the prejudice argument. As soon a you acknowledge its OK to be prejudicial to a racial, religious or ethnic group you justify racism etc. So, even if they are Boers, rednecks ets. If you say its OK to be prejudicial to them, you say its Ok to be prejudicial in general. In which case, if you acknowledge this you have to accept a dog eat dog racist world. I wont. But you seem to.

Gandhi, MLK and Mandela, their followers and many more have realised that to make exceptions makes you a hypercit. Its why they were consistent. And, they were the majority for all those reasons.

Farrakhan has apologised, twice... I think, over his comments about judiasm... nothing to do with being "white" etc. it was sectarian... but carry on... and he repeated the views a bit later... not sure what his views are now... He changes so often.

I actually agree with you about Ali being an angry young man. But that is my discussion point. He was an angry man. Inconsistent and not particularly nice at times. I don't discredit him as a boxer or even his character attributes such as his determination etc. I just think his work as an ambassador for human rights is over played. It was coincidental and not part of a well thought out plan/strategy. As acknowledged by you in saying he was an angry man.

Your attitude seems to be prejudice is fine so long as I am not a victim of it. Well done.

Fearless - a troll posts insults and condescending comments to get a rise and offers no structured argument... ;-)

Happy boy. You still haven't responded to my question regarding 911 and Hitler. Should the west/allies have adopted the Ghandi route? Please answer.

Happytravelling wrote:Azania - sorry. Yes, everybody can have diverse opinions. But people with a prejudicial agenda, black or white, will get my disapproval. BNP or NoI. I don't discriminate. However, those that do with their prejudice will always be called hypocrit and should be challenged. Its the crux of the prejudice argument. As soon a you acknowledge its OK to be prejudicial to a racial, religious or ethnic group you justify racism etc. So, even if they are Boers, rednecks ets. If you say its OK to be prejudicial to them, you say its Ok to be prejudicial in general. In which case, if you acknowledge this you have to accept a dog eat dog racist world. I wont. But you seem to.

Gandhi, MLK and Mandela, their followers and many more have realised that to make exceptions makes you a hypercit. Its why they were consistent. And, they were the majority for all those reasons.

Farrakhan has apologised, twice... I think, over his comments about judiasm... nothing to do with being "white" etc. it was sectarian... but carry on... and he repeated the views a bit later... not sure what his views are now... He changes so often.

I actually agree with you about Ali being an angry young man. But that is my discussion point. He was an angry man. Inconsistent and not particularly nice at times. I don't discredit him as a boxer or even his character attributes such as his determination etc. I just think his work as an ambassador for human rights is over played. It was coincidental and not part of a well thought out plan/strategy. As acknowledged by you in saying he was an angry man.

Your attitude seems to be prejudice is fine so long as I am not a victim of it. Well done.

Fearless - a troll posts insults and condescending comments to get a rise and offers no structured argument... ;-)

The NoI are pro black as opposed to anti white. A huge difference which no doubt will be lost on you.

I await your response to my answer to your question about Nick Griffin. Your evasion and silence is telling.

You say you dont discriminate yet you stereotype by describing African Americans as crotch grabbing. That is equally as repugnant as discriminating in my books. You have a low opinion of African American yet claim not to be discriminatory. Totally ridiculous. I mean who will employ someone they have a low opinion of with a tendancy to be lazy and probably try and shag your missus.

I asked you for a quote from Farrakhan. You've provided nothing but generalist BS. Go on son. Its all over google. Farrakhan is a quote a minute guy. Any fool can find an inflamatory comment by him. I'm sure you can also.

Regarding ALi being angry. If you held the same opinions and beliefs when you were 20 (assuming you are 40 for instance) then you have not grown up. When I was 20 and I saw a Boer I would have flattened. Now I'll just slap him.

Its ok for your likes who have never experienced any discrimination based on your ethnicity to pontificate on others who have suffered generations of it. Have you ever wondered why jewish people are rightfully hyper-sensitive to any anti semitism regardless where it comes from?

azania wrote:The NoI are pro black as opposed to anti white. A huge difference which no doubt will be lost on you.

If in the act of being pro black they fail to be anti white - that would be fine.

If in the act of being pro black they are anti white - they are hypocrites and as bad as the people they criticise.

I'll leave it to you 2 to argue which category the NoI fall in to.

Az thats like justifying the views of the Nazis as saying they were pro aryan but its still racism.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:The NoI are pro black as opposed to anti white. A huge difference which no doubt will be lost on you.

If in the act of being pro black they fail to be anti white - that would be fine.

If in the act of being pro black they are anti white - they are hypocrites and as bad as the people they criticise.

I'll leave it to you 2 to argue which category the NoI fall in to.

Pro black and not anti white. I read an interesting stat by Claud Anderson, in his theory of Powernomics, who stated that the Jewish Dollar bounces within the jewish 18 times before it is spent on any other group. The Asian Dollar bounces 14 times. The hispanic dollar 11 times and the African American just under 1 time. What the NoI have been saying is that the African American money should bounce within the African American community more times before it leaves. This is in keeping to what other ethnic groups do in the USA.

BTW - The white Dollar bounces over 40 times before its spent elsewhere.

Action speaks louder than words.

You do speak a load of BS on this subject and last time I checked this is a boxing forum not a politics one.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Az thats like justifying the views of the Nazis as saying they were pro aryan but its still racism.

Seriously? Have you heard of thr NoI calling for the extermination of other races? Have you heard them say that other races should be slaves? The comparison between the NoI and nazis is frankly insulting to any indivisual with half a brain cell.

What the NoI are calling for is what other races are doing. The difference is that Farrakhan says it without mincing his words with fine platitudes. Wish he'd stop with the religious crap though.

Do find it ironic people being lectured on discrimination by someone who made one of the most sexist comments you're ever likely to see on here.

The NoI are a racially motivated group whether you like to admit it or not, positive discrimination is still discrimination.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You do speak a load of BS on this subject and last time I checked this is a boxing forum not a politics one.

I know. You like the Floyd Patterson who was grateful for segregation and couldn't understand why others were less than happy with it. Also its hard to seperate Ali from Politics. His name for one and thatthe OP was regarding both.

rowley wrote:Do find it ironic people being lectured on discrimination by someone who made one of the most sexist comments you're ever likely to see on here.

Me sexist? Whatever next.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The NoI are a racially motivated group whether you like to admit it or not, positive discrimination is still discrimination.

I dont disagree one bit. But every ethnic group in western has organisations who are ethnically based that claim to represent them and have supporters. You have Asian groups, Cuban groups, jewish groups and others. Why the special interest when it comes to a black group? In America, blacks are the most integrated ethnic group, yet economically the poorest. Other groups who are not so integrated, who spend their hard earned dollars within their groups are economically better off. I believe there is a link.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:The NoI are pro black as opposed to anti white. A huge difference which no doubt will be lost on you.

If in the act of being pro black they fail to be anti white - that would be fine.

If in the act of being pro black they are anti white - they are hypocrites and as bad as the people they criticise.

I'll leave it to you 2 to argue which category the NoI fall in to.

When a society institutionally favours one group over another, it is not "as bad" for the subjugated group to be "anti" the favoured group as the other way around.

Let me me give you a few real world examples:

It was not wrong for European Jews in WW2 to hate Germans.
It was not wrong for Black South Africans in apartheid South Africa to hate Whites.
It was not wrong for Indians to hate the English in the 1800's.

So it is not "as wrong" for African Americans in the 1960's to be anti white as it was for white Amercians to be anti Black.

You might try Googling "racism and power" to learn more.

azania wrote:BTW - The white Dollar bounces over 40 times before its spent elsewhere.

Are you serious or are you Wumming?

In a majority White nation - are you actually surprised at that pathetic excuse for a statistic?

Until the figure is population-proportion-adjusted its a meaningless and hopeless stat.

Must try harder (for the umpteenth time) Az.

fearlessBamber wrote:

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:The NoI are pro black as opposed to anti white. A huge difference which no doubt will be lost on you.

If in the act of being pro black they fail to be anti white - that would be fine.

If in the act of being pro black they are anti white - they are hypocrites and as bad as the people they criticise.

I'll leave it to you 2 to argue which category the NoI fall in to.

When a society institutionally favours one group over another, it is not "as bad" for the subjugated group to be "anti" the favoured group as the other way around.

Let me me give you a few real world examples:

It was not wrong for European Jews in WW2 to hate Germans.
It was not wrong for Black South Africans in apartheid South Africa to hate Whites.
It was not wrong for Indians to hate the English in the 1800's.

So it is not "as wrong" for African Americans in the 1960's to be anti white as it was for white Amercians to be anti Black.

You might try Googling "racism and power" to learn more.

In a nutshell. The racism and power is spot on also. The bottom line is that whites had the power and therefore could exercise racism. Blacks didn't.

There is no doubt you cannot class Muhammad Ali as one of the greatest technical fighters, it was more his charisma and cult following that made him so historic and popular. Obviously still hugely talented though.

egan20 wrote:There is no doubt you cannot class Muhammad Ali as one of the greatest technical fighters, it was more his charisma and cult following that made him so historic and popular. Obviously still hugely talented though.

Ali wasn't the best technical boxer. For instance he never went to the body and was poor infighting. But what he had was better than all others who brought their A game in the HW division. In that sense he was the greatest HW who ever lived.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:BTW - The white Dollar bounces over 40 times before its spent elsewhere.

Are you serious or are you Wumming?

In a majority White nation - are you actually surprised at that pathetic excuse for a statistic?

Until the figure is population-proportion-adjusted its a meaningless and hopeless stat.

Must try harder (for the umpteenth time) Az.

OK. The dollar bounce taking into consideration population stats means that the dollar bounce would be less than jewish and more that hispanic. Plus the white majority in USA is slightly above 50% and soon white will be the largest ethnic group but will comprise less than 50% of the pop of USA.

The point (which you must have deliberately missed) is that the NoI are calling for african americans to do exactly what other ethnic groups actually do. But when its blacks calling for it, it suddenly becomes dangerous and racist.

I'm ignoring the point because I'm not debating it. I'm debating your stats.

Simples.

You really should take notice of this az. There are times when I don't actually disagree much with what you write/I can't be bothered to disagree with what you write - I just take issue with some of the fallacies presented as facts.

oxring wrote:I'm ignoring the point because I'm not debating it. I'm debating your stats.

Simples.

You really should take notice of this az. There are times when I don't actually disagree much with what you write/I can't be bothered to disagree with what you write - I just take issue with some of the fallacies presented as facts.

The stats about whites is a minor detail but per capita they spend more within the white population that african americans do. That is the main point. You're arguing why the plug socket doesn't work when there's a massive power cut.

And if you agree with me, I'll run naked down Oxford Street on Xmas day

Now that is tempting. I'll have to think on it.

oxring wrote:Now that is tempting. I'll have to think on it.

Not too hard please. Its freezing outside.

Wow, I left this argument as it was obvious there was no middle ground. But interested to see how others took this up.

Azania, pro black? Are you kidding me? The BNP and KKK say they are just pro white! Every Afrikaaner I ever met said they were just standing up for the white tribe and a lot of black S Africans I met said viewed it tribaly. But I digress. If you see it as pro black, white, asian etc. you're still seeing life in racial terms and therefore being racist. If you are seeing it as good, bad, socialist, capatilist... that's ideology. But race... well, that's racism.. sorry mate.

As for you the NoI... Well, you don't have to try hard to find Elijah talking about white devils and Farrakhan saying Hitler was a great man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVuEsBuiuqA

I was living in DC, dating a Nigerian girl, when he made his comments about the only thing Hitler did wrong was lose... and when he shook a rabbis hand to apologise and prove he wasn't anti semitic... again.. he had done this before.

Ali was a great and unique talent. A man of great mental fortitude and courage. Was he really a shiny light in the civil rights movement? Was he morally correct and consistent. Of course he wasn't! He was brash and proud and the african american community liked/wanted/needed that. Was that for the greater good of the African American community... debatable. That was my point. Many Indian's love Bose because he was brash, proud and a man of action. Buyt he was a fascist! Ali, by his own admission, addressed the KKK on behalf of the NoI to discuss their mutual interests.

Now, Azania and Bamber obviously think I am a white supremicist for saying this, but I believe somebody who sides with white supremicists, like the KKK, is not much different from them... by their own admission. And I wont make excuses for them... but I'll leave you boys to defend it.

Hope you all had a great Xmas and New Year!

P.S Azania, I couldn't stop laughing at your bouncing stat.... don't really know what that really meant or what it was trying to prove...

And Bamber... I've never met a Jews who hates germans. Infact, I read a blog recently about Dianne Abbotts comments where a Jewish commentator had said "get over it. The Jewish population have been persecuted for 2000 years and you can't get over a couple of hundred!". Followed by, "we just get our heads down and get on with it"... Anyway, I digress. I've never met a Jew who hates Germans and my last girlfriend was Indian. And, when I lived in India, I saw very little antipathy. As I have said, a lot admire Bose but very few who hate the English.

I understand people's anger but I don't justify it. In the same way, if I lived in parts of London where gang crime is largely perpetuated by the black community, I might understand people being anti black and voting BNP. But I wouldn't try justify it...

We can all try justify our prejudices and try and make ourself feel better and superior by generating "facts" to justify our prejudice... but human history is long and we can all pick a period that suits.. Don't delude yourself, that feeling of validation for your self pity or superiority is just that... prejudice.. you're no better or worse than anybody else.

God damn, he's gettin through the ethnicities this fella! Is there a race you haven't dated?

Fantastic article and in some places well debated, enjoyed reading the article, i can clearly make out the clever chappies and the wind up men and the hit and move on people. Glad i logged in now.
My own take is as the title said.
Was Ali nothing more than a lot of talent, with a big ego and mouth


He sure was and it is a pity there is no one around today like him.

nissan wrote:He sure was and it is a pity there is no one around today like him.

True that brother.

I can see where both sides are coming from - however - my own personal position, as listed above - is that when you resort to violence, you are losing your argument, and when you're agreeing to be a guest speaker at a racist's convention, you damage your credibility.

With the Jewish person saying to get over it point made earlier is it not relevant that the awful things done to the Jewish people whilst reasonably recent were in the past whilst the time we are talking about Ali living in saw active institutional racism and an actively volatile and high risk environment? Not advocating violence but the comment about getting over something only stands if it has already finished.

Happytravelling wrote:Wow, I left this argument as it was obvious there was no middle ground. But interested to see how others took this up.

Azania, pro black? Are you kidding me? The BNP and KKK say they are just pro white! Every Afrikaaner I ever met said they were just standing up for the white tribe and a lot of black S Africans I met said viewed it tribaly. But I digress. If you see it as pro black, white, asian etc. you're still seeing life in racial terms and therefore being racist. If you are seeing it as good, bad, socialist, capatilist... that's ideology. But race... well, that's racism.. sorry mate.

As for you the NoI... Well, you don't have to try hard to find Elijah talking about white devils and Farrakhan saying Hitler was a great man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVuEsBuiuqA

I was living in DC, dating a Nigerian girl, when he made his comments about the only thing Hitler did wrong was lose... and when he shook a rabbis hand to apologise and prove he wasn't anti semitic... again.. he had done this before.

Ali was a great and unique talent. A man of great mental fortitude and courage. Was he really a shiny light in the civil rights movement? Was he morally correct and consistent. Of course he wasn't! He was brash and proud and the african american community liked/wanted/needed that. Was that for the greater good of the African American community... debatable. That was my point. Many Indian's love Bose because he was brash, proud and a man of action. Buyt he was a fascist! Ali, by his own admission, addressed the KKK on behalf of the NoI to discuss their mutual interests.

Now, Azania and Bamber obviously think I am a white supremicist for saying this, but I believe somebody who sides with white supremicists, like the KKK, is not much different from them... by their own admission. And I wont make excuses for them... but I'll leave you boys to defend it.

Hope you all had a great Xmas and New Year!

The NoI didn't condone the killing of anyone or lynched anyone because of the colour of their skin. Any ideas why a group who saw others kill, Cuddle in a bad way, lynch, whip another because of their skin may call that group devils? Especially when the law protected them when they carried out their murderous rampages? Think about it. Devils is being too kind.

Once again you are flat out lying. Farrakhan never said that the "only thing Hitler did was lose". If you're going to quote Brother Minister Imam Farrakhan, at least get it right and in context also.

Ali was correct in many areas. Vietnam being the obvious. His enemies were not the VC but white americans who actively denied him his human rights. He had every right to be someone angry about that. He had opinions and aired it. His religion, his words, his voice. Live with it.

"A man who stands for nothing falls for everything" - Malcolm X.

Ali - Great boxer, great man and great civil rights advocate. In the end he won every battle he faced. Took on the US govt and won. GOAT.