Was Ali nothing more than a lot of talent, with a big ego and mouth?

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People on here will know I am pretty critical of Ali. Not as a boxer, but as a product, an image. There are way too many who swallow the Will Smith version of him. As talented as he was, he barracked so many people for using his "slave name", despite Cassius was given to him by his mother. Kind of disrespectful to drop the name his mother gave him, don't you think? His, now acknowledged lie about throwing his gold medal into the river etc. His insulting comments about Uncle Tom's to the "white man", despite his backers being white Georgian's and being an "Uncle Tom" to the NoI. His hating of his "racist" persicution, but yet his addressing the KKK on their mutual views... I could go on. Way too many hypocricies and inconsitencies to list.

In short, I still have issues with him. I acknowledge his huge boxing and promotional talent. I think his fortitude was immense and so respect that. I respect what he meant to the african american community who were desperate for a "proud" and exceptional talent. But, for me, the things that made him a "lesser man" was his treatment of those he felt superior to. In an ironic way, what he professed to be upset about. His bullying of Paterson was shameful and his treatment of Frazier disgusting. Watching Marvis last night hit the nail on the head and was telling. Ali publicly and shamelessly abused Frazier but never had the integrity to apologise in the same manner.

For me, he is like Malcolm X. Great speaker. Brash, arrogant and proud, what the african american community (needed) appreciated. But, like Malcolm X, he was wrong most of his life. In contrast, Martin Luther King was both a great oritor and, most importantly, RIGHT his entire life. For our S. Asian readers, like Ghandi and Bose. Bose offered a more proactive resistance but, ultimately was wrong and a fascist... kind of like the KKK ambassador Ali.....

Happytravelling wrote:P.S Azania, I couldn't stop laughing at your bouncing stat.... don't really know what that really meant or what it was trying to prove...

And Bamber... I've never met a Jews who hates germans. Infact, I read a blog recently about Dianne Abbotts comments where a Jewish commentator had said "get over it. The Jewish population have been persecuted for 2000 years and you can't get over a couple of hundred!". Followed by, "we just get our heads down and get on with it"... Anyway, I digress. I've never met a Jew who hates Germans and my last girlfriend was Indian. And, when I lived in India, I saw very little antipathy. As I have said, a lot admire Bose but very few who hate the English.

I understand people's anger but I don't justify it. In the same way, if I lived in parts of London where gang crime is largely perpetuated by the black community, I might understand people being anti black and voting BNP. But I wouldn't try justify it...

We can all try justify our prejudices and try and make ourself feel better and superior by generating "facts" to justify our prejudice... but human history is long and we can all pick a period that suits.. Don't delude yourself, that feeling of validation for your self pity or superiority is just that... prejudice.. you're no better or worse than anybody else.

You're laughing at something you dont understand?

What am I debating with here?

Azania, now who's make it what up? Farrakhan felt the need to find a rabbi and shake his hand, again.

Murder is illegal in most cultures so nobody ever advocates it. Even the Afrikaaner parties never openly condoned murder. But we know they closetly endorsed it and it was undertaken by "rebels" etc. The man you quote, Malcolm X was killed by NoI members... If the system was so racist and corrupt we simply wouldn't be having this discussion. There are always aspects that will be prejudicial. You come for SA and must know of the zenophobic murders of Zimbabweans.

I agree, Ali great boxer and great man but great civil rights advocate I question. Luther King, most definitely, Ali, Malcolm X in his early years, NoI... never. They were just bitter. Even Malcolm X realised in the end and members of the NoI killed him for it. Well, to protect Elijah. And Malcolm's familly believe Farrakhan was responsible!

As for you bounce theory, I laughed at how contrite it was. Its so convoluted it just exposes your chip and agenda. Its a complex theory that tries to proport itself in very simple terms. There are so many caveats and you don't even bother to acknowledge them.

I repeat again. Ali admits he talked to the KKK on behalf of the NoI about their common ground/similarities. That is, he/they believed they were similar, at least in aspects. Your equation is simple. White supremacists/segregationists = bad. Black seperationists/supremacists = good. What is the difference? I don't see one. But you do.. what is is Azania?

Or should I say more simply. Ignoring colour and who they are, do you normally sympathise with anybody who sympathises with the KKK? If you don't but you make exception to Ali/the NoI even you must see the hypocricy?

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, now who's make it what up? Farrakhan felt the need to find a rabbi and shake his hand, again.

Murder is illegal in most cultures so nobody ever advocates it. Even the Afrikaaner parties never openly condoned murder. But we know they closetly endorsed it and it was undertaken by "rebels" etc. The man you quote, Malcolm X was killed by NoI members... If the system was so racist and corrupt we simply wouldn't be having this discussion. There are always aspects that will be prejudicial. You come for SA and must know of the zenophobic murders of Zimbabweans.

I agree, Ali great boxer and great man but great civil rights advocate I question. Luther King, most definitely, Ali, Malcolm X in his early years, NoI... never. They were just bitter. Even Malcolm X realised in the end and members of the NoI killed him for it. Well, to protect Elijah. And Malcolm's familly believe Farrakhan was responsible!

As for you bounce theory, I laughed at how contrite it was. Its so convoluted it just exposes your chip and agenda. Its a complex theory that tries to proport itself in very simple terms. There are so many caveats and you don't even bother to acknowledge them.

I repeat again. Ali admits he talked to the KKK on behalf of the NoI about their common ground/similarities. That is, he/they believed they were similar, at least in aspects. Your equation is simple. White supremacists/segregationists = bad. Black seperationists/supremacists = good. What is the difference? I don't see one. But you do.. what is is Azania?

Amazing. If you're going to use a you tube vid of Farrakhan at least get it right. Show me where he says Hitler was a reat man. Fact is that he has never said anything so stupid. I know what you are on about with that comment. I know Farrakhan's exact quote and when taken out of context from his whole speach it is strange reading. His words started with "some people" and ends wth "not Farrakhan".

Farrakhan is Anti Israel. SO are many religious jews who believe that the state of Israel can only be realised when their messiah arrives. He shook the hand of a rabbi who supports that POV.

WHat chip in my agenda. I posted verifiable facts. Challenge them and explan yourself and quit making barbed comments which have zero basis in actuality. What are those caveats that you know but are reluctant to say?

Ali/NoI spoke with the KKK because they had one huge similarity. Seperatism. But were the Klan really any different from regular Joe Southern SixPack? I maintain that there wasn't much difference. If there was it was neglible to render is nonsensical. For 400 yrs African Americans had been banging on the door of equality. Fron slavery to endentured labour to Jim Crow. Many felt that enough was enough and completely seperate. I see noting wrong there. Why try to live equally with people who thought you less than they are? Speak to the people who articulate those concepts. At least they are honest about it.

Of course MLK was great. But he sits comfortably with most people because he was using a language all could enderstand easily. Malcolm was different. He spoke and directly challenged the status quo politically as well as morally and rejected what America claimed it stood for. Furthermore, King was no great fan of passive resistance. He felt it was a better weapon to get sympathy from waverers and northern liberals.

White supremacists/segregationists = bad. Black seperationists/supremacists = good. What is the difference? I don't see one. But you do.. what is is Azania

Big difference. The NoI never advocated violence and never carried out acts of terror or violence and are not a supremacist group. Yes they were segregationists. Yes they had very unsavoury beliefs. But they are a product of hate. The hate that hate produced. And who can blame their followers who thought whites were devils?

As for Ali? He did more for civil and human rights in USA than most people. He drew attention to it and its injustice. Patterson said that he should be grateful for what America gave him and said his religion was a menace. Grateful for what? And is religion a menace? The same people using the christian bible to call black people son of Ham and therefore worthy of servitude were not a menace in the eyes of Patterson. Glad Ali gave that guy a lesson. Ali said that his enemies were not in Vietnam but in USA. He was correct.

As far as I am concerned, Malcolm said "freedom is never given, its taken by any means neccessary". And that people are justified in using any means neccessary to get that freedom. I agree with that. If the nazis had occupied UK, do you think freedom marches would win them over to change their minds? Or do you think the Brits would be justified in using any means neccessary to win their freedom and control their own destiny?

My view on the NOI is that they were a voice of black America that needed to be heard other then the lets hold hands and sing voice of Martin Luther King.

The NOI were just saying out loud what many Afro Americans were thinking to themselves anyway. 'Why should we beg or march for our GOD given rights' I think that attracted Ali.

In a rational world, people can make rational decisions from the comfort of their armchair. But when the might of the state contrives to keep you down, people get a little upset. Methinks a certain poster here doesn't like uppity blacks.

Happytravelling wrote:Or should I say more simply. Ignoring colour and who they are, do you normally sympathise with anybody who sympathises with the KKK? If you don't but you make exception to Ali/the NoI even you must see the hypocricy?

You cant ignore colour.

Its like saying ignore 911, do you think USA was justified in attacking Afghanistan?

azania wrote:

Happytravelling wrote:Or should I say more simply. Ignoring colour and who they are, do you normally sympathise with anybody who sympathises with the KKK? If you don't but you make exception to Ali/the NoI even you must see the hypocricy?

You cant ignore colour.

Its like saying ignore 911, do you think USA was justified in attacking Afghanistan?

I do not agree with this statement. The NOI came about as a direct result of the 100's of years of oppression that the blacks suffered. The KKK came about through pure hate and racist views. Ali was a young man in the thick of the so called civil rights movement in America and as I have said there was 2 voices representing black America at the time. Many followed King for his non violent struggle but many had had enough of turning the other cheek only to gat slapped again and were attracted to the voice that called for self love and self defence. Ali chose the latter. You can't blame him considering the times in America.

Ironically, I've been in Africa so haven't been able to address this thread.

Onetwoforever - I appreciate and largely agree with what you say. I never said, contentiously, anything else that I question Ali's human rights credentials.

Azania - you just jump from point to point and don't really make any. Its really poor to condone racism as a counter to another. I condemn all seperatists but you say its OK so long as you have been prejudiced against. I've dated many black girls and seen the reaction from black boys... should I be a seperatist?

YOur comments about Malcolm are interesting, as he also realised the basis for his views was unfounded and he was killed by the NoI... by Farrakhan.. sorry, there never was a conclusion to that but his family firmly believed Farrakhan was behind it...

Theology, morality all those things are colour blind. So yes, it is possible to be colour blind but obviously, you can't azania... have a great weekend.

Actually, my position is much the same as Oxrings, as stated 22/01/12, but I was just being contentious to start a thread. Thankfully, Azania took me up on it but, sadly, revealed his disturbing views. Which I have to say, I see as quite racist so I chose to take him up on it. As I would a BNP member. Like them, Azania seems to justify when colour is important to the argument and when it isnt.

Happytravelling wrote:Ironically, I've been in Africa so haven't been able to address this thread.

Onetwoforever - I appreciate and largely agree with what you say. I never said, contentiously, anything else that I question Ali's human rights credentials.

Azania - you just jump from point to point and don't really make any. Its really poor to condone racism as a counter to another. I condemn all seperatists but you say its OK so long as you have been prejudiced against. I've dated many black girls and seen the reaction from black boys... should I be a seperatist?

YOur comments about Malcolm are interesting, as he also realised the basis for his views was unfounded and he was killed by the NoI... by Farrakhan.. sorry, there never was a conclusion to that but his family firmly believed Farrakhan was behind it...

Theology, morality all those things are colour blind. So yes, it is possible to be colour blind but obviously, you can't azania... have a great weekend.

I doubt yu have left Luton let alone been to Africa. When people travel abroad, they normally name the country as opposed to the whole continent. I also doubt if you have dated black or asian girls. I suppose some of your best friends are also black.

What reaction from black boys? Mixed race dating it so common it doesn't garner a passing glance from most people if any at all.

Claiming Farrakhan killed Malcolm is 100% wrong and libellous. Farrakhan was critical of Malcolm for leaving the NOI. He made several barbed and fanned the flames of hate within the NOI towrds Malcolm. But he didn't kill or order his killing. That is wrong and have the grapes to admit it. Betty Shabazz met with Farrakhan before her death and they reached their peace. Farrakhan acknowledged his role in stirring the heat.

Why should the victim of non colour blind remain colour blind? Malcolm said it was intelligence not to allow your enemy to hit you again and it was stupid to turn the other cheek. I agree. Perhaps the allies should have turned the other cheek in 1939.

Happytravelling wrote:Actually, my position is much the same as Oxrings, as stated 22/01/12, but I was just being contentious to start a thread. Thankfully, Azania took me up on it but, sadly, revealed his disturbing views. Which I have to say, I see as quite racist so I chose to take him up on it. As I would a BNP member. Like them, Azania seems to justify when colour is important to the argument and when it isnt.

From the comfort of your armchair you can rationalise anything. If you are caught in the eye of the tornado, many do not have time for rational and comfortable thoughts. Not everyone is Mandela. Some want the same kind of justice Eichmann got.

"From the comfort of your armchair you can rationalise anything. If you are caught in the eye of the tornado, many do not have time for rational and comfortable thoughts. Not everyone is Mandela. Some want the same kind of justice Eichmann got."

As always, spoken like someone who is truely blinkered. We can all excuse the heat of the fray to excuse our actions. Mandela, King, Gandhi all realise that. That's the excuse of the bitter, angry and prejudieced. I am sure the Afrikaaners use the Dengens lies and butchery to justify their actions. You use your dubious bouncing theory to "justify" your prejudice. But, there are a number of inequivicable stats racists use. 90% of gang rapes are commited by black men. 80% of knife and gun crime in the UK. These are real, very simple stats. Much less than your "bouncing" stat. They don't need interpretting. But, if you don't take context into account you can easily get carried away with xenophobia, bias and bigotry. ALL racist, ALL bigots truly believe they are justified. The Nazi party, the Afrikaaner parties, the BNP, Ali and you, Azania, are in that grouping. You can quote all the stats you like, but the context is so complicated you can't justify it. The only way is to accept all are equal and anybody who questions that is wrong. Ali, as a believer in seperation, didn't believe in that, ergo, he was wrong. As try as you might to prove your bigotry, you are wrong. If you think you are right, you must accept that the Afrikaaners may be right, that the racists may be right, because you think there is a racist angle to your bitterness and justification.
The Bantu kicked out the Khoisan, the Europeans kicked out the Bantu and Dengan slaughtered the Afrikaaners after promising them land. We can all justify our bitterness.

Happytravelling wrote:"From the comfort of your armchair you can rationalise anything. If you are caught in the eye of the tornado, many do not have time for rational and comfortable thoughts. Not everyone is Mandela. Some want the same kind of justice Eichmann got."

As always, spoken like someone who is truely blinkered. We can all excuse the heat of the fray to excuse our actions. Mandela, King, Gandhi all realise that. That's the excuse of the bitter, angry and prejudieced. I am sure the Afrikaaners use the Dengens lies and butchery to justify their actions. You use your dubious bouncing theory to "justify" your prejudice. But, there are a number of inequivicable stats racists use. 90% of gang rapes are commited by black men. 80% of knife and gun crime in the UK. These are real, very simple stats. Much less than your "bouncing" stat. They don't need interpretting. But, if you don't take context into account you can easily get carried away with xenophobia, bias and bigotry. ALL racist, ALL bigots truly believe they are justified. The Nazi party, the Afrikaaner parties, the BNP, Ali and you, Azania, are in that grouping. You can quote all the stats you like, but the context is so complicated you can't justify it. The only way is to accept all are equal and anybody who questions that is wrong. Ali, as a believer in seperation, didn't believe in that, ergo, he was wrong. As try as you might to prove your bigotry, you are wrong. If you think you are right, you must accept that the Afrikaaners may be right, that the racists may be right, because you think there is a racist angle to your bitterness and justification.
The Bantu kicked out the Khoisan, the Europeans kicked out the Bantu and Dengan slaughtered the Afrikaaners after promising them land. We can all justify our bitterness.

I wonder why USA didn't hold peace marches after 911? Held hands and sang freedom songs.As I said, from the comfort of your armchair thousands of miles away, you can rationalise anything.

The bottom line is, for 500 years African Americans wanted and fought, campaigned and died for equality. Yet it was denied. Unsuprisingly many said enough was enough. If they weren't going to be allowed into the House, then they would build their own House. Perfectly understandable. The Jews got Israel because of the butchery they endured for centuries in Europe. Will you also deny them that right?

Azania, stop embarrassing yourself. You only think you are clever.

"I doubt yu have left Luton let alone been to Africa" - I spent 6 years travelling the world. I've probably been to more african nations than you have. Reel your chinless neck in.

"What reaction from black boys?" - before I went travelling the world, I lived in DC and my Nigerian gf said she got hassle from the "brothers" because she was dating me. I also had a Jamaican gf who said to me, as we walked through Anacostia, not to hold her hand "the brothers wouldn't like to see a white boy with me". And my African American friend in DC said the same. I lived in Baltimore and DC for 2 years and new wave black women dated me but only one African American. The new wave black community didn't have the same prejudice. As simple as that.

Up until the last 5-10 years here in the UK, black girls wouldn't date white boys. Its obvious. You just had to look around you. The stats also show it. If you look at the stats for "interacial" relationships, all the minorities have twice as many men dating other races than the girls. The girls are not dating out of race but the boys are. Who are they dating? There also used to be these dubious stat showing 80% of black footballers dated blonde, white girls. Again, real your neck in again.

"Claiming Farrakhan killed Malcolm is 100% wrong and libellous. Farrakhan was critical of Malcolm for leaving the NOI. He made several barbed and fanned the flames of hate within the NOI towrds Malcolm."- Betty Shabazz etc always claimed Farrakhan killed her husband. It was an NoI member who killed him. That is not libelous. Its only questionable who else is complicit.

"Why should the victim of non colour blind remain colour blind? Malcolm said it was intelligence not to allow your enemy to hit you again and it was stupid to turn the other cheek. I agree. Perhaps the allies should have turned the other cheek in 1939." The Nazis also claimed victimhood.... your point is? Its not hard to claim to be a victim. The challenge is to step back, assess if you really are a victim and then act in a measured way. If you don't you risk being as bad as your persecutors...

"The Jews got Israel because of the butchery they endured for centuries in Europe. Will you also deny them that right?"

No, the Jews largely got the homeland from a long, hard fought plan to get one. For millenia Jewish people worked hard, saved money and got themselves into position of power. Sadly, it endorsed the prejudicial view they were on a mission for world domination and led to a protective community that, in some ways, gave that view.

It was nothing like the African American community that has largely been disorganised.

Happytravelling wrote:"The Jews got Israel because of the butchery they endured for centuries in Europe. Will you also deny them that right?"

No, the Jews largely got the homeland from a long, hard fought plan to get one. For millenia Jewish people worked hard, saved money and got themselves into position of power. Sadly, it endorsed the prejudicial view they were on a mission for world domination and led to a protective community that, in some ways, gave that view.

It was nothing like the African American community that has largely been disorganised.

If you take the African American economy as a whole, it would be the 7th largest economy in the world. Moreover your last comment and the gist of your last post is to be polite extremely insulting to African Americans in particular. They have made huge strides in a generation and against serious obstacles. You suggest that they are lazy and disorganised (don't try and deny it) which is quite the opposite. You probably get your views from MTV videos and gansta rap.

As for jewish people and Israel. Read up on Stern and Irgun and the Hagannah. They didn't go on freedom marches and hoped the world would relent on them. They forced the hand of the british and eventually succeeded in getting their homeland. And it was through violence. To pretend otherwise is to deny history.

The thing is and I hope all other minority groups follow the jewish example. Work hard. Stick together. Look inwards first. Ironically every other group do that to a larger extent that people of the African diaspora. Africans want to be inclusive when the rest seem to be exclusive. But when some Africans decide to be exclusive, it becomes dangerous and the second coming of nazism, Strange flip flopping.

Happytravelling wrote:"The Jews got Israel because of the butchery they endured for centuries in Europe. Will you also deny them that right?"

No, the Jews largely got the homeland from a long, hard fought plan to get one. For millenia Jewish people worked hard, saved money and got themselves into position of power. Sadly, it endorsed the prejudicial view they were on a mission for world domination and led to a protective community that, in some ways, gave that view.

It was nothing like the African American community that has largely been disorganised.

And how did that view manifest itself? How did that view become accepted and acceptable? Small minded people like your good self didn't understand that safety in numbers is important for minorities and it is a normal reaction when under threat.

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, stop embarrassing yourself. You only think you are clever.

"I doubt yu have left Luton let alone been to Africa" - I spent 6 years travelling the world. I've probably been to more african nations than you have. Reel your chinless neck in.

"What reaction from black boys?" - before I went travelling the world, I lived in DC and my Nigerian gf said she got hassle from the "brothers" because she was dating me. I also had a Jamaican gf who said to me, as we walked through Anacostia, not to hold her hand "the brothers wouldn't like to see a white boy with me". And my African American friend in DC said the same. I lived in Baltimore and DC for 2 years and new wave black women dated me but only one African American. The new wave black community didn't have the same prejudice. As simple as that.

Up until the last 5-10 years here in the UK, black girls wouldn't date white boys. Its obvious. You just had to look around you. The stats also show it. If you look at the stats for "interacial" relationships, all the minorities have twice as many men dating other races than the girls. The girls are not dating out of race but the boys are. Who are they dating? There also used to be these dubious stat showing 80% of black footballers dated blonde, white girls. Again, real your neck in again.

"Claiming Farrakhan killed Malcolm is 100% wrong and libellous. Farrakhan was critical of Malcolm for leaving the NOI. He made several barbed and fanned the flames of hate within the NOI towrds Malcolm."- Betty Shabazz etc always claimed Farrakhan killed her husband. It was an NoI member who killed him. That is not libelous. Its only questionable who else is complicit.

"Why should the victim of non colour blind remain colour blind? Malcolm said it was intelligence not to allow your enemy to hit you again and it was stupid to turn the other cheek. I agree. Perhaps the allies should have turned the other cheek in 1939." The Nazis also claimed victimhood.... your point is? Its not hard to claim to be a victim. The challenge is to step back, assess if you really are a victim and then act in a measured way. If you don't you risk being as bad as your persecutors...

Yeah yeah, some of your best friends are black.

Yes a NoI member killed Malcolm. So if a Met Police Officer kills someone, is the Met Police Commissioner guilty? What happened to individual responsibility. Why is it collective guilt when it comes to blacks? Did Farrakhan spend time in jail for Malcolm's death? Stop making more of an idiot of yourself.

I have many friends in mixed relationships and have been the same for over 20 years. No-one bats so much of an eyelid. Your claims imo are simply made up after reading the Mail or some other rabid trash paper. Why do black footballers date white women? Who knows. Probably the same reason who all footballers have girlfriends who regularly get their baps out in newspapers. Another trophy.

As always Azania, you jump and move to avoid your many claims. You slandered and claimed many things about me and have backed out.

I said the African American community were disorganised. I never said lazy. And I don't think anybody could argue any different. Since the loss of King, X etc. African American "culture" has been gangster rap and..... It has not been a glowing light in culture. African Americans cannot claim they have not been a part in their own downfall. How ever indignant you want to be about it! Not only that, the new wave black immigrants have shown it up for being what it is. Introspective, to the point that the son's of new wave immigrants become presedents and the NAACP back Hillary Clinton and Jesse Jackson accuses him of talking down to "us black folk"... that is, Obama, doesn't share their victim mentality.

Do you know anything about Zionism? You need to read a little. Disreali was a Jewish convert and the fore front of Zionism came from the UK... read a bit more. Don't just get involved with American Jewish claims to the holy land... that was a shambles.

I agree, all minorities (and majorities) should be outward looking. Its why I am arguing with you. But you come from a continent where tribalism is rampant.

African is way to wide a generalisation. African problems vary from country to country, people to people. Ignorance, education and greed. You can't underestimate the latter. As much as you pretend Africa is inclusive, it is not a straightforward as that. Society is only a concept is a few parts of Africa. People inclusive, tribally, but outside that, they don't care. Cultural differences are interesting.

You say you are S African, which tribe?

"Yeah yeah, some of your best friends are black. Laugh Laugh" - and thankfully my black friends aren't pompous fools... ;-)

"Yes a NoI member killed Malcolm. So if a Met Police Officer kills someone, is the Met Police Commissioner guilty? What happened to individual responsibility. Why is it collective guilt when it comes to blacks? Did Farrakhan spend time in jail for Malcolm's death? Stop making more of an idiot of yourself." - your wishy washy point is.. when you or Ali feel like it you accuse a whole race. But when someone retorts you say "Well, its just an individual"... get an argument.

"I have many friends in mixed relationships and have been the same for over 20 years. No-one bats so much of an eyelid. Your claims imo are simply made up after reading the Mail or some other rabid trash paper. Why do black footballers date white women? Who knows. Probably the same reason who all footballers have girlfriends who regularly get their baps out in newspapers. Another trophy." - but how many are black girls dating white boys? Its rare. If you look at the stats they show very clearly that minority males are way more likely to be dating girls of another race. Which, basically means, in general, white girls. When I lived in DC I dated lots of black girls. It was ~60% black so that was not surprising. But they were nearly all new wave black girls. Not african americans. And the other thing I noticed in the UK is that Black girls had no interest in white boys. Not just my ugly mug but also my mates. If you pressed them they would say they were only interested in "black men". Like most races, girls are pressured to only date men from their race.... know yourself out Azania...

Azania, your so beautifully bitter and prejudiced you don't see it.

Yes, I've some black friends. I'm a fraud. I have never experienced life like you have... yawn... I don't think anybody could.

I relay my experiences of a white boy dating black girls and you tell me I am lying and are condescending.

Tell me, where exactly are you from? What tribe are you from?

Of your friends in mixed relationships, tell us how many are black men and white women and how many are black girls with white men? Go on, prove me wrong...

Happytravelling wrote:As always Azania, you jump and move to avoid your many claims. You slandered and claimed many things about me and have backed out.

I said the African American community were disorganised. I never said lazy. And I don't think anybody could argue any different. Since the loss of King, X etc. African American "culture" has been gangster rap and..... It has not been a glowing light in culture. African Americans cannot claim they have not been a part in their own downfall. How ever indignant you want to be about it! Not only that, the new wave black immigrants have shown it up for being what it is. Introspective, to the point that the son's of new wave immigrants become presedents and the NAACP back Hillary Clinton and Jesse Jackson accuses him of talking down to "us black folk"... that is, Obama, doesn't share their victim mentality.

Do you know anything about Zionism? You need to read a little. Disreali was a Jewish convert and the fore front of Zionism came from the UK... read a bit more. Don't just get involved with American Jewish claims to the holy land... that was a shambles.

I agree, all minorities (and majorities) should be outward looking. Its why I am arguing with you. But you come from a continent where tribalism is rampant.

African is way to wide a generalisation. African problems vary from country to country, people to people. Ignorance, education and greed. You can't underestimate the latter. As much as you pretend Africa is inclusive, it is not a straightforward as that. Society is only a concept is a few parts of Africa. People inclusive, tribally, but outside that, they don't care. Cultural differences are interesting.

You say you are S African, which tribe?

As I figured, you see gangsta rap as being the the sum of African American culture. Seeing as that is where your hypothesis eminates from its no wonder you come out with comments like: "African Americans cannot claim they have not been a part in their own downfall.". It begs the question; downfall from what? Slavery? Jim Crow, segregation? I actually do find your comments offensive. It shows a breathtaking lack of understanding of African American culture, history and people.

So Jesse Jackson was critical of Obama. Wow. When Boris Johnson is critical of Cameron, does it mean that whites are disorganised? Of course not. It just means that they have a difference of opinion.

I know plenty about Zionism. I know about Disreli, Hertsl, Netanyahu Snr (recently deceased), Manachem Begin and loads more. I also understand and have read widely on post zionism (Illan Papp). I am not getting involved with American Jewry just simply stating a historical fact that Israel was born out of violence both in The Mandate of Palestine and the barbarism in Europe. Self determination of the jewish people was the only way that their safety could be protected. History proved Jews 100% correct. For a millenia and then some, they wanted to be accepted for who they were. For a millenia and then some, they were refused that simple, basic human right. See a trend here?

By African, I mean the diaspora.

All people should be outward looking. But in reality all people are not. Earlier I gave an example of the dollar movement to show that all people are inward looking and that blacks are the most outward looking of all people.

"The Abelungu came, we had the land and they had the bible. They said "close your eyes and let us pray". When we opened our eyes, they had the land and we had the bible". Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

Happytravelling wrote:Of your friends in mixed relationships, tell us how many are black men and white women and how many are black girls with white men? Go on, prove me wrong...

My Aunt, my sister, my son's godfather, my wife's brother in law. My brother, cousin and even my son is dating a white girl. No skin off my nose. Its an issue for you but for me I couldn't give a damn. Whatever makes them happy is good for me. I dont look at skin but what comes out of their mouth. "Being Pro Black does not equate to being anti white." Bantu Stephen Biko.

Learn.

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, your so beautifully bitter and prejudiced you don't see it.

Yes, I've some black friends. I'm a fraud. I have never experienced life like you have... yawn... I don't think anybody could.

I relay my experiences of a white boy dating black girls and you tell me I am lying and are condescending.

Tell me, where exactly are you from? What tribe are you from?

I am telling you that you are lying because I firmly believe you are lying. You probably did what Hugh Grant did.

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, your so beautifully bitter and prejudiced you don't see it.

Yes, I've some black friends. I'm a fraud. I have never experienced life like you have... yawn... I don't think anybody could.

I relay my experiences of a white boy dating black girls and you tell me I am lying and are condescending.

Tell me, where exactly are you from? What tribe are you from?

I am telling you that you are lying because I firmly believe you are lying. You probably did what Hugh Grant did.

Happytravelling wrote:"Yeah yeah, some of your best friends are black. Laugh Laugh" - and thankfully my black friends aren't pompous fools... ;-)

"Yes a NoI member killed Malcolm. So if a Met Police Officer kills someone, is the Met Police Commissioner guilty? What happened to individual responsibility. Why is it collective guilt when it comes to blacks? Did Farrakhan spend time in jail for Malcolm's death? Stop making more of an idiot of yourself." - your wishy washy point is.. when you or Ali feel like it you accuse a whole race. But when someone retorts you say "Well, its just an individual"... get an argument.

"I have many friends in mixed relationships and have been the same for over 20 years. No-one bats so much of an eyelid. Your claims imo are simply made up after reading the Mail or some other rabid trash paper. Why do black footballers date white women? Who knows. Probably the same reason who all footballers have girlfriends who regularly get their baps out in newspapers. Another trophy." - but how many are black girls dating white boys? Its rare. If you look at the stats they show very clearly that minority males are way more likely to be dating girls of another race. Which, basically means, in general, white girls. When I lived in DC I dated lots of black girls. It was ~60% black so that was not surprising. But they were nearly all new wave black girls. Not african americans. And the other thing I noticed in the UK is that Black girls had no interest in white boys. Not just my ugly mug but also my mates. If you pressed them they would say they were only interested in "black men". Like most races, girls are pressured to only date men from their race.... know yourself out Azania...

So you concede that Farrakhan didn't kill Malcolm.

.

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, your so beautifully bitter and prejudiced you don't see it.

Yes, I've some black friends. I'm a fraud. I have never experienced life like you have... yawn... I don't think anybody could.

I relay my experiences of a white boy dating black girls and you tell me I am lying and are condescending.

Tell me, where exactly are you from? What tribe are you from?

I'm South African. Xhosa.

What tribe are you? Oh dont tell me, europeans don't have tribes.

Azania, you jibe me about "knowing black people" then make comments about "know interatial relationships"... I gave examples. You generalised and never backed up what you said. So, stop condescending and start substantiating. HOw many interracial relationships do you know with a black man dating another race and a black girl dating another race... lets compare!

The oldest and most prominent African American political organisation is the NAACP. The NAACP backed a white woman over a black man... and Jesse Jackson, an close associate of the NAACP chastised him... why is that?

If you want me to back down on the positive contribution of contempory African American culture to the world, I won't. Its largely been negative. I can see King etc. being positive. Even my new wave girlfriends looked down on it. In fact, that's where I got my views from. My African and Caribbean gfs thought African American's were self defeating.

You talk of Zionism as if it only happened in the second world war... it was going on for almost a millenia before that... please go on...

Your bouncing argument showed nothing other than the African American community are poor. That is all.

You still wont tell me what tribe you are from... or perhaps you're not as proud as you say... ;-)

Your comment was "What reaction from black boys? " I gave my response and you ansered "My Aunt, my sister, my son's godfather, my wife's brother in law. My brother, cousin and even my son is dating a white girl. No skin off my nose. Its an issue for you but for me I couldn't give a damn."

So, you didn't really answer your own question. Your family are happy with their boys dating white girls but you didn't tell me how many of the girls were dating non black boys.

My family really are happy with me to bring any girl home... but its different for girls. Of all the girl friends I've had from other races and religions... only a few would tell their family. I'm wondering now how you would feel if your sister, mother, female cousins etc were sleeping with white or asian men? How many of them are?

I gave you examples of people very close to me who are in mixed relationships. You want numbers? Forget it. Cant be bothered to start counting. Most are in single race relationships though. Both my white, black, sun-continent, Israeli, Oriental friends. But my black friends are the most mixed.

So what if the NAAACP backed Hilary? It means they are not race minded but policy driven. I would assume many independent observers would applaud that. But it seems to don't want blacks to look outward and beyond melanin.

If you see African American culture as being negative, thats your perogative. Fact is that you are 100% wrong. That is very insulting and factually incorrect. But you are entitled oto your opinion. And its my opinion that you are an ass for having an opinion like that.

The father of modern zionism was Hertzl. Are you denying that?

As I said earlier, take the AA community as a whole it would be the 7th largest economy in the world. Poor? Go ahead. Continue making stuff up.

I've said many times on this board and on this thread where I'm from. No wonder you're making a class clown of yourself. You dont understand very well or see what you dont want to see.

Happytravelling wrote:Your comment was "What reaction from black boys? " I gave my response and you ansered "My Aunt, my sister, my son's godfather, my wife's brother in law. My brother, cousin and even my son is dating a white girl. No skin off my nose. Its an issue for you but for me I couldn't give a damn."

So, you didn't really answer your own question. Your family are happy with their boys dating white girls but you didn't tell me how many of the girls were dating non black boys.

My family really are happy with me to bring any girl home... but its different for girls. Of all the girl friends I've had from other races and religions... only a few would tell their family. I'm wondering now how you would feel if your sister, mother, female cousins etc were sleeping with white or asian men? How many of them are?

Mate, please read what I wrote above. You're being silly. Do you thing an aunt and sister are male? What gender do you think god-father is? Or wife;s brother in-law?

We dont give a damn who we date. What part of that dont you understand? Male or female we dont care as long as the person is fine, we're happy.

So, you most of you black male relatives are dating non black females.. thanks for endorsing that..

"So what if the NAAACP backed Hilary?" - You fool! Its because they said Hilary represented the black vote!!! It had everything to do with race, they are a racial organisation!!!

How modern zionism... you've read a few websites, well done... Zionism was an ambitiion before Hertzl but he was involved in modern zionism, well done...

Yes, its me who's making a clown of myself... well done... You're arguing for a man who has only empathy as a defense but feel you're in a morally high position.

Azania, as a truly diverse and multicultural man.. you have to find anybody with segregationalist views at least uncomfortable. You tell me you family are truly multicultural etc.

But, yet you defend Ali's segregationalist views. How, logically, do you reconcile that with your diverse, multicultural views? Is it not a hypocricy to endorse multiculturilism one minute but defend somebody's intolrerence the next?

Happytravelling wrote:So, you most of you black male relatives are dating non black females.. thanks for endorsing that..

"So what if the NAAACP backed Hilary?" - You fool! Its because they said Hilary represented the black vote!!! It had everything to do with race, they are a racial organisation!!!

How modern zionism... you've read a few websites, well done... Zionism was an ambitiion before Hertzl but he was involved in modern zionism, well done...

Yes, its me who's making a clown of myself... well done... You're arguing for a man who has only empathy as a defense but feel you're in a morally high position.

No. Most of my relatives and in same race relationships. Soe are in mixed ralationships. Does it matter? Not to me and all my friends it doesn't.

Yes my point exactly. They were policy driven and not melanin driven. They looked at Hilary's message and agreed more with it regardless of colour. Its the message and not the person delivering that message. So you assume that the NAAACP would automatically support a black man because he is black. That is once again desperately patronising and insulting. Jeez, you are stupid. Do you think the NAACP are the only race based organisation in USA?

I have read widely about zionism. When one has been found out, their defence is very similar to yours. I wouldn't enter into a debate with me about that subject if I were you. Moreover this is a boxing board. Perhaps the mods should move it to the news section.

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, as a truly diverse and multicultural man.. you have to find anybody with segregationalist views at least uncomfortable. You tell me you family are truly multicultural etc.

But, yet you defend Ali's segregationalist views. How, logically, do you reconcile that with your diverse, multicultural views? Is it not a hypocricy to endorse multiculturilism one minute but defend somebody's intolrerence the next?

Ali#s views were similar to Zionism. Self determination. I support people coming together as equals and not forced. Likewise I support the right of people to determine their own destiny and their chosen path. The oppressed have the right to use any means necessary to secure their freedom.

You cant count because you know it shows that the the interacaial relations are pretty one sided. But, that's OKl..

You need to start deciding what matters to you and what doesn't. One minute your chastising me and condescending about my experiences. Telling me cos I "know black" people etc. I am a fake. The next, when I justify my position and ask you do do the same you get very defensive... You are are such a flake.

The NAACP, and Jesse's, was a racially motivated stance. They clearly stated they felt Hillary represented the "black vote"... It was Melanin driven... I livend in Baltimore where there were 5 mayoral candidates. All black. And saw the electoral debate "is so and so black enough for Baltimore"... race and votes is a real part of american elections. Don't kid yourself!

I'm winning the african american debate so happy to take on the zionism debate.

"Ali#s views were similar to Zionism. Self determination. I support people coming together as equals and not forced. Likewise I support the right of people to determine their own destiny and their chosen path. The oppressed have the right to use any means necessary to secure their freedom."

There is a huge difference between believing in self determination and ardent segregation. S Africa and Southern American states allowed self determination but was deeply segregationalist. Ali believed in segregation. That is my problem.

I also think you mask your racism by telling me your family sleep with anybody... woo hoo..

Happytravelling wrote:You cant count because you know it shows that the the interacaial relations are pretty one sided. But, that's OKl..

You need to start deciding what matters to you and what doesn't. One minute your chastising me and condescending about my experiences. Telling me cos I "know black" people etc. I am a fake. The next, when I justify my position and ask you do do the same you get very defensive... You are are such a flake.

The NAACP, and Jesse's, was a racially motivated stance. They clearly stated they felt Hillary represented the "black vote"... It was Melanin driven... I livend in Baltimore where there were 5 mayoral candidates. All black. And saw the electoral debate "is so and so black enough for Baltimore"... race and votes is a real part of american elections. Don't kid yourself!

I'm winning the african american debate so happy to take on the zionism debate.

So what if it is one sided. How many Chinese do you see in mixed relationships? How many whites for that matter? Indians, Japanese etc etc etc. Why is it an issue for YOU when it comes to blacks.

Yes they felt hilary represented the black vote. The listened to Hilary's policies as opposed to looking at her skin. They made their decision based on the policies. What problem do you have with that? Is your problem based on the fact that the NAACP still exists? Do you have a problem with them?

Why do you think politicians make hispanic friendly speeches when in Florida? Why do you have a problem when blacks do exactly what all other groups actually do? Please answer. I've noticed you have not answered a single question I have asked you directly. Try doing that sometimes. It makes for an honest debate. A ? usually signifies a question. And it is common practice to answer a question when it is asked. Go on Nkosi, try it sometimes.

You are not winning any debate. You are being shown up as a liar and a fraud. You are th eone who claims that African American culture is represented by rap music. How ignorant is that?

Happytravelling wrote:"Ali#s views were similar to Zionism. Self determination. I support people coming together as equals and not forced. Likewise I support the right of people to determine their own destiny and their chosen path. The oppressed have the right to use any means necessary to secure their freedom."

There is a huge difference between believing in self determination and ardent segregation. S Africa and Southern American states allowed self determination but was deeply segregationalist. Ali believed in segregation. That is my problem.

I also think you mask your racism by telling me your family sleep with anybody... woo hoo..

Israel is a haven for all jews everywhere. How more segregationist can you get? I support the right of Jews to find that haven. Yes Ali believed in segregation. During the 1960s, many blacks did also/ Any ideas why that is? And why was it wrong of them to want to be seperate from the whites then?

My family do not sleep with anybody. We are not dogs. Yes we are black, but not dogs. To accuse me of racism you have to understand what racism is. That you claim with a straight face that rap is the highlight of black culture in America is nothing but overt racism.

You mask your racism by lying about you dating black women. I've heard it so many times. "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black".

Azania, can you back peddle any quicker... one min your family are a ratially satisfied utopia, the next you're admitting it isn't quite so and the women in your family know where they stand.... ;-)

I have a problem that the NAACP define things in terms of race not policy. You live in the UK and none of political parties talk race. And quite rightly so. Its about ideology. And I really don't care about your race. There is no "black" or "white" vote because ideology doesn't have colour. That's the way it should be.

You've not even given me the numbers of you your relatives dating black and white... don't ask me to give facts back. YOu've done nothing but tell me how I know nothing and try undermine my life experiences which, even if I do say so myself, are reasonable, but tell me yours are so important I have to listen.

If I am a liar and a fraud, please prove that and don't just mouth off...

You disappoint me cos you make out like your a raging intellect but just mouth off like a gangster rapper...

Azania, you endorse racism when it suits you but back peddle and weasle word when it doesn't.

Yes, you've a multucultural family but believe in racial segregation. I heard that racism so many times.

Yes, you can tell me you don't hate other races but you endorsement of segregationalists tells us all different

I can't believe your defense of your racist views are "well, members of my family shag other people" but Ali's segregational views are fine.... so I have to be OK and hunky dory.

All my friends, no matter what their race, are not racists...

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, can you back peddle any quicker... one min your family are a ratially satisfied utopia, the next you're admitting it isn't quite so and the women in your family know where they stand.... ;-)

I have a problem that the NAACP define things in terms of race not policy. You live in the UK and none of political parties talk race. And quite rightly so. Its about ideology. And I really don't care about your race. There is no "black" or "white" vote because ideology doesn't have colour. That's the way it should be.

You've not even given me the numbers of you your relatives dating black and white... don't ask me to give facts back. YOu've done nothing but tell me how I know nothing and try undermine my life experiences which, even if I do say so myself, are reasonable, but tell me yours are so important I have to listen.

If I am a liar and a fraud, please prove that and don't just mouth off...

You disappoint me cos you make out like your a raging intellect but just mouth off like a gangster rapper...

Musty be cultural as you say.

As for my family, I'd ask you to be polite and not condescending. You asked a question about my family I answered. No need for you to be insulting.

Why on earth should I give numbers. Try answering one of my questions or is it in your world a white person doesn't have to answer to a black person?

Is the NAACP the only race based group in USA/ Please answer? Why do you have a problem with only them or groups that represent blacks?

If you dont want to listen dont ask. Simple. Also once again, try answering questions I have asked you.

If you dont care about race, you spend an awful amount of time talking about it and telling all and sundry how you dated Jamaican, Nigerian and all black nationalities. You sir are a liar. Or should I call you massa?

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, you endorse racism when it suits you but back peddle and weasle word when it doesn't.

Yes, you've a multucultural family but believe in racial segregation. I heard that racism so many times.

Yes, you can tell me you don't hate other races but you endorsement of segregationalists tells us all different

What racism have I endorsed? Where have I endorsed segregation? You really are lacking capacity of something or another.

Happytravelling wrote:I can't believe your defense of your racist views are "well, members of my family shag other people" but Ali's segregational views are fine.... so I have to be OK and hunky dory.

All my friends, no matter what their race, are not racists...

Bigot.

All your friends may not be racists, but you are. Fact.

Azania, you are a very racist and arrogant person. One minute you try to undermine my life experiences as just "racism" or what ever, the next you tell me you family have been with other races to prove your families inter racial credentials.

I have tried debating with you but you don't want to know. You want to resort to comments like "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black" but yet you tell me all the time you family members are white, like its a badge of honour.

You are the worst kind of fool. One who thinks he is a genious and superior to the rest of the world. But you are really just a fool.

Hahaha.. you are such a tool... that's not racism... that's a... fact...

Happytravelling wrote:Azania, you are a very racist and arrogant person. One minute you try to undermine my life experiences as just "racism" or what ever, the next you tell me you family have been with other races to prove your families inter racial credentials.

I have tried debating with you but you don't want to know. You want to resort to comments like "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black" but yet you tell me all the time you family members are white, like its a badge of honour.

You are the worst kind of fool. One who thinks he is a genious and superior to the rest of the world. But you are really just a fool.

Still not answering a single question I've asked. Usually honest debates go that way. Try it sometimes. You asked me questions about my family I answered. Its not my fault that you don;t like the answer and that I don't fit into your stereotype of what black people should be. Fact is I am no different from many black people. The black community is as diverse as all other and for that I am pleased.

Don't get angry mate. Just try answering some questions.