Will Ospreys lose (Ulster gain) Bowe in the summer?

First topic message reminder :

Theres normally a lot of talk but it seams this summer is the year it could happen, Bowe returns to Ulster.

What do Ospreys fans think about their chances of keeping Bowe?
Do you wish to keep him as much as in prev years?
would it free up a NWQ player spot for another position?

What do Ulster fans think of the chances of getting Bowe back?
Do we need him as much as we used to?
Could the unthinkable happen and he moves to another Province?


Does it all depend on how well the Ospreys and Ulster do this year and he'll go with the one he sees as having the best chance of winning things with?

Have to say the current Ulster squad with Bowe added would scare any team (plus whatever else Humph manages in the summer).

I hope he does win more Geoff....depends on how Ulster do I guess.

Rava - cheers. I look forward to it!

roddersm wrote:Is this just speculation that the IRFU would prefer him to go to Munster?

This seems a bit strange to me. It shouldn't matter to them which province he is at as he will still be back in the Irish system and under the IRFU's control.

I can't recall any previous scenario like this were the IRFU have tried to push a player to one province against their will. Surely the IRFU would not and should not be showing preferential treatment to one province over another?

The only reason why I think the IRFU might want Tommy to go to Munster is to move him to outside centre and line him up as BOD's long-term replacement.

The IRFU tried to push Simon Easterby to Ulster (he wanted to go & had an offer to go to Leinster), so he stayed with the Scarlets. I could never understand that one either, because Leinster's need was just as great as Ulster's in the backrow.

And, Rods, Ulster gets preferential treatment financially over the other 3 provinces. (according to Paul McNaughton anyway in the Irish Times for your saffer contingent).

Not over the other 3 sin but over the big two. At the time ulster were given extra revenue so were Connacht but they spent a lot of theirs on coaches (might have been forshaw)

Downey announced by munster today.

Sin é wrote: And, Rods, Ulster gets preferential treatment financially over the other 3 provinces. (according to Paul McNaughton anyway in the Irish Times for your saffer contingent).

Not accordinging to Shane Logan a year ago.

Ulster get more help re NIE but Leinster and Munster get more help re Central Contracts.
He said it evened itself out. When Mike Reid was in charge we got considerably less.

Stand - everyone gets more money than Connacht!

Maybe the issue with Tommy is the IRFU are not giving him a central contract and its up to the province that takes him on to pay for him and Ulster don't have the cash and as a replacement for Doug Howlett, Munster could afford him.

Bear in mind that the IRFU are cutting down on central contracts, Ulster already have Trimble (a winger) on a central contract and Ireland are not exactly short of wingers. Sean O'Brien doesn't have a central contract and you would think the IRFU would want to look after him from a wear and tear point of view. As a winger, Tommy would not need as much minding.

Players on central contracts aren’t the only ones subject to the player management program Sin.

Darcy doesn’t have a central contract and he’s still rested as much as Heaslip, Sexton etc.

SOB has 2 more years on his current deal I thought. Can't see bowe not getting a central contract Sin. Still 28 and despite some indifferent form is clearly our number 1 winger

The cash injection mcnaughton referred to was for both Connacht an ulster though.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: And, Rods, Ulster gets preferential treatment financially over the other 3 provinces. (according to Paul McNaughton anyway in the Irish Times for your saffer contingent).

Not accordinging to Shane Logan a year ago.

Ulster get more help re NIE but Leinster and Munster get more help re Central Contracts.
He said it evened itself out. When Mike Reid was in charge we got considerably less.

According to Paul McNaughton last week in the Irish Times:

He not only cites “the strong policy of retaining Irish players”, but that the IRFU are the only governing body which “directly pays part of the salary for non-Irish qualified players. In fact in one of the provinces, Ulster, more money was pumped in because they don’t have the same revenue streams as Munster and Leinster, and they used the money primarily to strengthen their squad by importing really good foreign players, and that’s been a success.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0128/1224310865799.html

Leinster & Munster provide more players who earn the cash (internationally) in the first place for the IRFU to dispense. They also have to maintain bigger squads because of rotation, etc. Munster have 10 players in the match day squad against Wales and not all of them are on central contracts. It still has to play in the Magners while the 6Ns is going on.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: And, Rods, Ulster gets preferential treatment financially over the other 3 provinces. (according to Paul McNaughton anyway in the Irish Times for your saffer contingent).

Not accordinging to Shane Logan a year ago.

Ulster get more help re NIE but Leinster and Munster get more help re Central Contracts.
He said it evened itself out. When Mike Reid was in charge we got considerably less.

According to Paul McNaughton last week in the Irish Times:

He not only cites “the strong policy of retaining Irish players”, but that the IRFU are the only governing body which “directly pays part of the salary for non-Irish qualified players. In fact in one of the provinces, Ulster, more money was pumped in because they don’t have the same revenue streams as Munster and Leinster, and they used the money primarily to strengthen their squad by importing really good foreign players, and that’s been a success.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0128/1224310865799.html

Leinster & Munster provide more players who earn the cash (internationally) in the first place for the IRFU to dispense. They also have to maintain bigger squads because of rotation, etc. Munster have 7 players in the match day squad against Wales and not all of them are on central contracts. It still has to play in the Magners while the 6Ns is going on.

Fixed that for you there Sin...

Standulstermen wrote:SOB has 2 more years on his current deal I thought. Can't see bowe not getting a central contract Sin. Still 28 and despite some indifferent form is clearly our number 1 winger

The cash injection mcnaughton referred to was for both Connacht an ulster though.

SOB signed a new contract this time last year with Leinster, around the same time as Heislip & Sexton signed with Ireland and Leinster. The IRFU are not handing out central contracts like they used to.

Mickado wrote:

Fixed that for you there Sin...

Thanks mick - what I should have said is that Munster reared 10 of the matchday squad

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:SOB has 2 more years on his current deal I thought. Can't see bowe not getting a central contract Sin. Still 28 and despite some indifferent form is clearly our number 1 winger

The cash injection mcnaughton referred to was for both Connacht an ulster though.

SOB signed a new contract this time last year with Leinster, around the same time as Heislip & Sexton signed with Ireland and Leinster. The IRFU are not handing out central contracts like they used to.

They may not be but if paddy Wallace got one then tommy Bowe will be offered one (don't mean any disrespect to paddy)

I'd be extremely surprised if Tommy Bowe wasn't offered a central contract. He's one of Ireland genuine world class players. A lot of people seem to have very short memories.

I'd say the IRFU will move heaven and earth to get him back into the Irish system.

Tommy will get a central contract - how much is paid as part of the Central contract and how much comes the Province is part of the ongoing discussions.

As to money going to the various Provinces I have more faith in a CEO than in a journo

So, Geoff, the issue is about how much the province can pay/top-up?

Paul McNaughton isn't a journo. He is the recently retired Ireland Team manager and did sit on the IRFU Committee that approved provincial signings.

roddersm wrote:I'd be extremely surprised if Tommy Bowe wasn't offered a central contract. He's one of Ireland genuine world class players. A lot of people seem to have very short memories.

I'd say the IRFU will move heaven and earth to get him back into the Irish system.

Nothing to do with short memories. Its being short of cash. SOB signed a contract recently with Leinster which is probably just as lucrative as the one he would have signed with Ireland. The logic would be that the IRFU would prefer if the provinces paid irish qualifed players, just like they have the cash to pay NIQ players like Howlett who would have been on a decent wedge when he first came to Munster.

Can you provide any sources for that Sin or are you just stating you opinion.

The IRFU policy has always been to provide central contracts to players of key national importance.

Paul O'Connell for example has recently signed an extension so clearly the IRFU are still happy to pay salaries were they see fit.

I do believe we are talking money and I beleive Tommy has been asked to take a cut of some sort. I don't think this is a problem for him, within reason, as I have mentioned elsewhere.

I also have to say my belief is he will be an Ulster play soon - although the waiting is a pain.

Reading that McNaughton quote - he does not contradict Logan.
He says Ulster get more financial help with NIE; Logan said the same. However what he also said was Munster and Leinster get more money paid to their players, as part of the central contract scheme, than Ulster do.

Is Tommy Bowe of more importance to Ireland than Sean O'Brien? There are a rake of wingers that would do a job there - Andrew Trimble is in great form at the moment. With the likes of Gilroy, Kearney, conway & Zebo emerging he won't be needed as much (not forgetting Luke Fitz as well).

Paul O'Connell's contract wasn't huge considering his worth to Ireland (350K). He'd have got double that in France. I don't think Tommy would attract the same interest over there (or UK).

Sin é wrote:Is Tommy Bowe of more importance to Ireland than Sean O'Brien? There are a rake of wingers that would do a job there - Andrew Trimble is in great form at the moment. With the likes of Gilroy, Kearney, conway & Zebo emerging he won't be needed as much (not forgetting Luke Fitz as well).

Paul O'Connell's contract wasn't huge considering his worth to Ireland (350K). He'd have got double that in France. I don't think Tommy would attract the same interest over there (or UK).

Disagree. Bowe is certainly as important as O'Brien and he would have no problem attracting interest from France or anywhere else. There is a reason that he is one of the highest paid players around Sin and that is that he is one of the world best wingers.

He's not as good as Trimble though...

...well that was my next point.......

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:Is Tommy Bowe of more importance to Ireland than Sean O'Brien? There are a rake of wingers that would do a job there - Andrew Trimble is in great form at the moment. With the likes of Gilroy, Kearney, conway & Zebo emerging he won't be needed as much (not forgetting Luke Fitz as well).

Paul O'Connell's contract wasn't huge considering his worth to Ireland (350K). He'd have got double that in France. I don't think Tommy would attract the same interest over there (or UK).

Disagree. Bowe is certainly as important as O'Brien and he would have no problem attracting interest from France or anywhere else. There is a reason that he is one of the highest paid players around Sin and that is that he is one of the world best wingers.

Bowe's form peaked in 2009. I'd put him on the same level of importance as O'Brien (who has a provincial contract). I'd have Howlett (pre-injury) anyway over Bowe as a winger by a long shot. The central contract's are not as lucrative as the were before - O'Connell took a paycut with his last one.

but he is definitely getting a central contract...........

Sin

Do you actually believe he won't get a central contract?

geoff998rugby wrote:
Reading that McNaughton quote - he does not contradict Logan.
He says Ulster get more financial help with NIE; Logan said the same. However what he also said was Munster and Leinster get more money paid to their players, as part of the central contract scheme, than Ulster do.

Logan puts a nice spin on it alright! Looking at it from an IRFU point of view, they would prefer to have Bowe contributing to the national team, but being paid by their province (rather than the provinces paying Howlett etc). Howlett, Pienaar, etc. do not contribute to the national team as frontline players who win international matches and make money for the IRFU.

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

Do you actually believe he won't get a central contract?

The cards are in the IRFU's hands at the moment. Ospreys want to release Bowe, Bowe wants to come home. He might get a central contract, but it won't be worth a lot, and the province he goes to is going to have to top it up. That is the only reason why I can see that there is any talk of him going anywhere other than Ulster.

Sin é wrote:

Bowe's form peaked in 2009. I'd put him on the same level of importance as O'Brien (who has a provincial contract). I'd have Howlett (pre-injury) anyway over Bowe as a winger by a long shot. The central contract's are not as lucrative as the were before - O'Connell took a paycut with his last one.

I hope Tommy reads this and it influences him to go somewhere his very considerable skill set is appreciated i.e. anywhere but Munster.

Why is this an argument?

We know he has been offered a central contract. That's basically the end of the story right?

There will be a gap open next year when Paddy Wallaces contract expires.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

Do you actually believe he won't get a central contract?

The cards are in the IRFU's hands at the moment. Ospreys want to release Bowe, Bowe wants to come home. He might get a central contract, but it won't be worth a lot, and the province he goes to is going to have to top it up. That is the only reason why I can see that there is any talk of him going anywhere other than Ulster.

Who told you any of that?

I do not see it as a spin.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster all get financial assistance, with salaries, from Dublin. The amount each get as salary assistance is roughly the same.

What contributes more to the overall coffers is a different issue - that is income.
Salary assistance is expenditure.

In fact it is my understanding that this basically equality is the plan in the future. What it does is provide more help to the weaker province, whoever they be in the future, regarding NIE and hopefully makes all 3 competitive on the big stage.
That seems to me to be a prudent and sensible approach if we wish to retain our players in Ireland.

The alternative is to allow a weaker province to cease to be competitive and their better players to leave.
Ferris made it perfectly clear he only signed his latest contract because he saw that Ulster were on an upward curve.
We would not be talking about Bowe signing for Ulster if they were where they were 3 years ago.

Notch wrote:Why is this an argument?

We know he has been offered a central contract. That's basically the end of the story right?

There will be a gap open next year when Paddy Wallaces contract expires.

Its not an argument. Rodders made the point that Munster were getting preferential treatment because Tommy Bowe is apparently being 'forced' to move there.

I'd say the 'preferential treatment' is based on who will pay (most) of his wages (and the IRFU would prefer if they didn't).

Edit: for all Rodders knows, Munster could be furious they are being forced to take Bowe because they would prefer to keep Howlett.

geoff998rugby wrote:I do not see it as a spin.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster all get financial assistance, with salaries, from Dublin. The amount each get as salary assistance is roughly the same.

What contributes more to the overall coffers is a different issue - that is income.
Salary assistance is expenditure.

In fact it is my understanding that this basically equality is the plan in the future. What it does is provide more help to the weaker province, whoever they be in the future, regarding NIE and hopefully makes all 3 competitive on the big stage.
That seems to me to be a prudent and sensible approach if we wish to retain our players in Ireland.

The alternative is to allow a weaker province to cease to be competitive and their better players to leave.
Ferris made it perfectly clear he only signed his latest contract because he saw that Ulster were on an upward curve.
We would not be talking about Bowe signing for Ulster if they were where they were 3 years ago.

So, the spin worked

Not disputing the reasoning or have an issue with it*. Just that Leinster & Munster are more self-sufficient.

*It will be useful to slag off Ulster fans before the the QF! (Munster sweat & blood subsidising Ulster's big name signings while we have to do with James Downey).

geoff998rugby wrote:I do not see it as a spin.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster all get financial assistance, with salaries, from Dublin. The amount each get as salary assistance is roughly the same.

What contributes more to the overall coffers is a different issue - that is income.
Salary assistance is expenditure.

In fact it is my understanding that this basically equality is the plan in the future. What it does is provide more help to the weaker province, whoever they be in the future, regarding NIE and hopefully makes all 3 competitive on the big stage.
That seems to me to be a prudent and sensible approach if we wish to retain our players in Ireland.

The alternative is to allow a weaker province to cease to be competitive and their better players to leave.
Ferris made it perfectly clear he only signed his latest contract because he saw that Ulster were on an upward curve.
We would not be talking about Bowe signing for Ulster if they were where they were 3 years ago.

So in reality, what you are saying is, the equality plan is being put in place for the benefit of Munster

It would be funny if Sin single-handedly put Bowe off going to Munster, after reading his thoughts - keep it up man

Yeah, I'm sure Munster would be furious if they got the player they're trying desperately to land Sin.

I don't think they should make a player who's come through the Ulster Academy go to Munster if he wants to go to Ulster and Ulster are willing to offer him first team rugby. You can substitute Munster and Ulster in that sentence with the names of any province.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

Do you actually believe he won't get a central contract?

The cards are in the IRFU's hands at the moment. (a) Ospreys want to release Bowe, (b) Bowe wants to come home. (c) He might get a central contract, but it won't be worth a lot, and the province he goes to is going to have to top it up. That is the only reason why I can see that there is any talk of him going anywhere other than Ulster.

Who told you any of that?

a) Common knowledge that Ospreys are trying to reduce wage bill and Tommy is their highest paid player who takes up 10% of their budget.
b) Ulsterfans keep telling everyone that he wants to come home to Ulster.
c) Comments about/from players who have recently signed contracts. For example, Sexton last year found it difficult going and said at the time that he would have preferred to have negotiated with Leinster (who were not involved in the discussions at all). He spoke about it to the press and was threatening to go to France where he had an offer reputed to be double what he got from the IRFU.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It would be funny if Sin single-handedly put Bowe off going to Munster, after reading his thoughts - keep it up man

Thats what I'm trying to do. I want to keep Howlett. We won't be let if we get Bowe.


Edit: Rory - have you seen this?

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1127815

enjoy

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Why is this an argument?

We know he has been offered a central contract. That's basically the end of the story right?

There will be a gap open next year when Paddy Wallaces contract expires.

Its not an argument. Rodders made the point that Munster were getting preferential treatment because Tommy Bowe is apparently being 'forced' to move there.

I'd say the 'preferential treatment' is based on who will pay (most) of his wages (and the IRFU would prefer if they didn't).

Edit: for all Rodders knows, Munster could be furious they are being forced to take Bowe because they would prefer to keep Howlett.

I didn't make that point at all.

In fact what I said was that I didn't believe that the IRFU were influencing Bowe at all, that more than likely the ball is in court and he has a number of options on the table.

Get a grip Sin, Munster are clearly intrested in Bowe or there would be no debate. First you say the IRFU won't offer him a contract and now you are saying that they are forcing him on provinces that don't want him? Which is it?

Rods - your exact words:

I can't recall any previous scenario like this were the IRFU have tried to push a player to one province against their will. Surely the IRFU would not and should not be showing preferential treatment to one province over another?

Most the discussion has been about how the IRFU are forcing poor Tommy away from Ulster.

All this debating is doing nothing for me. I just keep popping back in to see if theres any new info. I see theres not. When is Humph Snr back from skiing holiday? I just want to know!!!!!!!!!

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It would be funny if Sin single-handedly put Bowe off going to Munster, after reading his thoughts - keep it up man

Thats what I'm trying to do. I want to keep Howlett. We won't be let if we get Bowe.


Edit: Rory - have you seen this?

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1127815

enjoy

Well I would say Bowe is a fantastic signing to any team!

Thanks for the link though, will definitely check it out later

Sin é wrote:Rods - your exact words:

I can't recall any previous scenario like this were the IRFU have tried to push a player to one province against their will. Surely the IRFU would not and should not be showing preferential treatment to one province over another?

Most the discussion has been about how the IRFU are forcing poor Tommy away from Ulster.

Exactly.

Gibson wrote:He's not as good as Trimble though...

As a son-in-law or Irish player?

Look, he's going to Connacht, end of...

I can see the sense in Tommy going South to bolster our Munster brethren.

No Province Left Behind.