Where did your Players develop?

First topic message reminder :

Select your full strength match day squad (injured players may be included), stating where each player learnt the game. If they were at your club at 17 - you can claim them. If they were there at 20 claim a joint credit.

Tigers:

Ayerza - Argentina
Chuter - Saracens
Cole - Tigers
Deacon - Tigers
Parling - Newcastle
Croft - Tigers
Salvi - Australia
Waldrom - NZ
Youngs - Tigers
Flood - Newcastle
Tuilagi - Samoa
Allen - Gloucester
Tuilagi - Tigers
Tait - Newcastle
Murphy - Ireland(School)/Tigers

Stankovich - NZ/Bristol?/Italy
Youngs - Tigers
Castro - Argentina/Italy
Skivington - Wasps
Crane - Leeds
Young - Newcastle
Staunton - Ireland
Agulla - Argentina

6 1/2 self developed (7 1/2 if we replace Staunton with Ford or Twelvetrees). not that great really. 4 former Falcons.

It's funny that a fatty we had written off goes to England and when he returns he can scrummage better than any tighthead in Ireland. Maybe we should be sending more young props to England. Because we have no tradition of producing destructive scrummagers over the last decade or so. The Premiership does.

Ross

Oh how we could have used him over the last few seasons

And J B Botha

1. Wilson
2. Baty
3. Brookes
4. Sorensen
5. Parling
6. Dowson
7. Woods
8. Gray

9. Dickson/Young
10. Wilkinson / Flood / Clegg
11. Tait
12. May
13. Noon
14. Visser
15. Miller

Guys any idea WHAT our actual strongest team is?

The Quins academy seem to have done a spectacular job compared to the other Jeff sides mentioned above.

This could well be the reason that thy are at the top of the league. clubs that are based around players who have spent their lives fighting for the same team will stick together much better than clubs who are a band of travellers.

Look at the great leicester and Wasp sides a few years back, most of their players were local lads who had been with the club all there lives.

Look at the great leicester and Wasp sides a few years back, most of their players were local lads who had been with the club all there lives..

Not completely true. Tigers have always tended to recruit from all over, they do tend to then keep those players for their entire careers though. The likes of Kay and Healey were not products of the academy but were signed up and made Tigers for the rest of their careers. The legendary Johnno started in the academy, then went travelling to NZ before coming back and re-joining the Tigers academy and shortly there after the first team. There is always a core of Leicester boys but often some of the biggest Tigers aren't from Leicester, Geordan Murphy practically bleeds red, white and green for example.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Look at the great leicester and Wasp sides a few years back, most of their players were local lads who had been with the club all there lives..

Not completely true. Tigers have always tended to recruit from all over, they do tend to then keep those players for their entire careers though. The likes of Kay and Healey were not products of the academy but were signed up and made Tigers for the rest of their careers. The legendary Johnno started in the academy, then went travelling to NZ before coming back and re-joining the Tigers academy and shortly there after the first team. There is always a core of Leicester boys but often some of the biggest Tigers aren't from Leicester, Geordan Murphy practically bleeds red, white and green for example.

Sam there are more great tigers that were born and bred academy players than not mate...!

Former Tigers academy players of note that all played in Tigers successful era:

Martin Johnson
Neil Back
Graham Rowntree
Darren Garforth
Richard Cockerill
Dean Richards
Will Greenwood
Tony Underwood
Rory Underwood
Dorien West
Lewis Moody

Reading through this post comparing Aviva prem teams to Rabo League, the Aviva have a lot less academy generated talent in their sides and a lot of foreigners.

That in my opinion is one of the big problems effecting International Rugby in England.

maestegmafia wrote:Reading through this post comparing Aviva prem teams to Rabo League, the Aviva have a lot less academy generated talent in their sides and a lot of foreigners.

That in my opinion is one of the big problems effecting International Rugby in England.

Why? How do you think it's effecting them/us?

Oh and Greenwood was from Yorkshire,played in uni in Durham before joining
Quins. Left Quins due to lack of game time due to Carling and joined Tigers at 24. Before going back to Quins. Quite of few of that list joined Tigers as young men (early 20s) and then stayed (as Sam said). Not many are from Leicester

Greenwood is from Blackburn, Lancs.

Dear God what have I done?! I hope Greenwood doesn't read this otherwise I'll be in trouble

On a side note isn't Lancs. a sub-district of Yorkshire?

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Reading through this post comparing Aviva prem teams to Rabo League, the Aviva have a lot less academy generated talent in their sides and a lot of foreigners.

That in my opinion is one of the big problems effecting International Rugby in England.

Why? How do you think it's effecting them/us?

there isn't enough opportunity for young academy players to get game time and experience at most Aviva Premiership clubs because they have so many other players, from other clubs, other countries or even other sports like rugby league starting ahead of them.

All of the best players get to play. Majority of U20 players have a decent amount of experience with the clubs. Relatively they might not have as many but in absolute numbers they're doing fine. A bigger problem than foreign players are all the average English players who will never be international standard. These are just as effective blockers for development but you rarely hear about them being a problem.

"On a side note isn't Lancs. a sub-district of Yorkshire"

You'd be shot for a comment like that in both Yorks and Lancs!

HammerofThunor wrote:All of the best players get to play. Majority of U20 players have a decent amount of experience with the clubs. Relatively they might not have as many but in absolute numbers they're doing fine. A bigger problem than foreign players are all the average English players who will never be international standard. These are just as effective blockers for development but you rarely hear about them being a problem.

Yes exactly all the best players get to play. Leaving little room to field a youngster.

English Premiership clubs have a regular A team competition, curtailed this season because of RWC, and youngsters often get a run out in LV and Amlin games. Added to that is Dual-registration of Academy players to local clubs in order to experience relatively rugged rugby at Championship and B&I Cup level. Not the same as full-on 1st team, but when they've proved themselves good enough, they'll step up. That's the theory anyway.

In the week before last, one of Exeter Chiefs' youngsters, Jack Nowell, played 80 minutes for Plymouth on Saturday, 80 minutes for Exeter A team on Monday night and 80 minutes for Chiefs against Prato in the Amlin on the following Saturday.

I'm not a fan of DR'ing in the overall scheme of things (could just about tolerate long term loans), but it is a useful tool to give Academy players the experience that they need.

maestegmafia wrote:Sam there are more great tigers that were born and bred academy players than not mate...!

Former Tigers academy players of note that all played in Tigers successful era:

Martin Johnson
Neil Back
Graham Rowntree
Darren Garforth
Richard Cockerill
Dean Richards
Will Greenwood
Tony Underwood
Rory Underwood
Dorien West
Lewis Moody

All the players in bold had played senior rugby at other clubs before making their debuts for Tigers, while West left the club as a back row forward, before returning (from Nottingham?) as a hooker. Of course all of these pre-date academies any way. What Tigers do well is to create a club ethos where players care about the club, the fans and their team mates. To succeed at the club you have to buy in to the ethos - irrespective of whether you are an import or an academy graduate. The best tigers have also joined the club young. Established stars often struggle.

You cannot compare the 12 AP teams makeup with Countries that have no more than a third of those teams. The greater the number of teams, the higher the liklihood of player movement.

LondonTiger wrote:
You cannot compare the 12 AP teams makeup with Countries that have no more than a third of those teams. The greater the number of teams, the higher the liklihood of player movement.

My point was the more home grown talent the more likely the club will get success.

Hense sighting current Quins, and previous Tigers and Wasps teams of good player development resulting in success.

maesteg, you have been told loads of times about the number of good, young English players with experience in the Aviva and you still trot out this nonsense!

You truly are exasperating, son!

Good player development is about identifying a player - no matter what age - who has the potential to be better and be an asset to the team, and then developing their talents accordingly.

Academies are a recent thing - and not always good for the game. Once upon a time you played for your local club - then if you were good enough you may progress to the nearest club higher up the chain. Nowadays it seems if you are not in a "big" academy at 18 you have little chance of making it. There are such things as late developers after all.

LT,

I agree, my point is further that success seems to be very closely linked to developing your own players rather than buying in.

I'd say that it is a neccesity that the Welsh/Irish/Scottish regions/clubs have a large amount of youngsters in their squad so that there is competition nationally - whereas that is diluted in the Aviva by the greater amount of clubs and so the talent can be spread more thinly.

There does seem to be great enthusiasm to sign a Leaguer to fill a problem position as a first port of call (obviously not in all cases)

Sam there are more great tigers that were born and bred academy players than not mate...!

Team from when Tigers last won the HEC;

15. Stimpson - Wakefield
14. Murphy - Irish schools and deMonfort Uni before Tigers
13. Smith - Tigers
12. Kafer - Australia
11. Tuilagi - Samoa
10. Healey - Waterloo
9. Hamilton - Tigers (I think)
1. Rowntree - Tigers
2. West - played for various clubs in various positions before settling at Tigers as a hooker
3. Garforth - Tigers
4. Johnson (capt) - Leicester boy through the schools and England age grade with well publicised trip to NZ
5. Kay - Waterloo
6. Moody - Tigers
7. Back - Tigers
8. Corry - Tumbrige Wells

Didn't Garforth join us from Coventry, and Back from Nottingham?

I think Back did the rounds but was a Tigers player, being before the official loan system. Garforth might have been I'd have to check.

Point stands anyway, it's as you say above LT Tigers have always been about the ethos.

Info about Backy (however most of us would consider him a Tiger)

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/s103/st11067.php

My "adopted" Tigers XV - players who may not have been born and bred but fully embodied the ethos of the club (pro era only)

Murphy; Lougheed, Greenwood, Howard, Tuilagi (A); Flood, Healey; Corry, Back, Newby; Kay, Fritz van Heerden; Ayerza, Chuter, Garforth.

Cullen, Wentzel, Castro and more could be included.

Good knowledge LT. Pretty decent team that.

Scarlets
1. I Thomas - Pontypool, Wales
2. M Rees - Tonyrefail, Wales
3. R Thomas - Johannesburg, South Africa
4. Timani - Tofoa, Tonga
/Day - Pembroke, Wales
5. Welch - Reading, England
6. McCusker - Wrexham, Wales
7. Turnbull - Haverfordwest, Wales
8. Morgan - Bristol, England
9. Knoyle - Morriston, Wales
10. Priestland - Carmarthen, Wales
/ Jones - Aberystwyth, Wales
11. Lamont - Perth, Scotland
12. J Davies - Solihull, England
13. S Williams - Carmarthen, Wales
/ Maule - Pontypool, Wales
14. North - King's Lynn, England (raised in N Wales)
15. Stoddart - Pontypridd, Wales

But other players we have in the wings as it were are - Shingler - Aldershot, Hampshire (raised in West Wales), A Warren - Burry Port, Wales, Liam Williams - Morriston, Wales, G Davies - Carmarthen, Wales, D Ford - Swansea, Wales, P John - Llanelli, Wales, Murphy - Swansea, Wales, E Phillips - Llandovery, Wales, K Owens - Carmarthen, Wales.

So not as many 'home grown' players in the 1st team as I thought, but then with the formation of the regions there was always going to be quite a lot of moving around.

Stats from the Scarlets website and Wiki - shockingly the Scarlets website still has players like D Lyons, R King, J Corsi, D Jones, Easterby, G Quinell among others still playing for them!

14. North - King's Lynn, England (raised in N Wales)

If he was raised in Northern Wales he wasn't developed by King's Lynn. The op was voicing a theory about the relation between teams that ustilise their academy and teams that sign players rather than develop them. The regions don't really fit the patterns as they are operated under completely different structures to the AP Clubs.

Apologies - got ahead of myself didn't I? All those places are where the players were born. Kinda missed the point didn't it? oops