Is the optimism not in the result but in the potential?

If you look at the whole of 2011 it has been a mixed bag for Wales, 2010 was better in many ways, 2009 better still, 2008 definitely the best of the bunch.

Bar 2008 we barely lifted a candle to third place in the six nations, but on the final day of the championship twice, we were still in with a shot of winning it, we still won more games than three of our six nations rivals over the last RWC cycle. But i would still say that it has not been a successful four years for results, the four before seemed better with a win and a draw against Australia and another Grandslam.

Something happened back in 2003 at the RWC under Steve Hansen. Wales stepped out of the doldrums, people took notice, praised our ambition and our candour even if we didn't win much at all.

We excited ourselves with a new found love for Rugby Potential. It has been an inspiration...!

This had little effect on the pitch, but behind the scenes wheels started turning, cogs ground cogs and the academies started producing. Within ten years of that 03 RWC Welsh regional academies are producing an amazing amount of players, the cream of the crop are being praised throughout the world, the younger players are putting a stride in the step of the fans back home and inspiring the youngsters. You should here what my 7 year old nephews mates say about the legend that is Matthew "super hero" Morgan.

Wales, the WRU, the current blokes in the backrooms of rugby teams (national and regional) seem to have got a hell of a lot right over the last ten years, no matter how much we criticised coaches and players.

It has been a slow process, we always knew it would be and we are far from the finished article. But their is an excitement in the press and the fans to see how far we can go. Can we keep raising the bar, can the academies learn from the players they have already nurtured how to produce better ones, will the future players influence the national and international game more than the current.

Will the regions start to win Heineken Cups with teams full of young Welsh Players, will we get more Grandslams will we start to always win our home games against SH teams, will we won day win a World Cup?

To answer your question, yes. But that optimism will fade very soon if the results don´t come. Wales seemed to be liberated in the RWC from their previous kicking game, which was invariably woeful. This was in large part to go forward men like Faletau and Roberts who got Wales on the front foot with some badly needed penetration (suit you sir). Add to that the pilfering of Warburton who got Wales a lot of turn-over ball where they could attack from and suddenly Wales were a team that didn´t need to kick anymore. They could build momentum and apply pressure by gaining ground with the ball in hand.

But now they must develop their game even further because the spotlight will be on the danger men for Wales. They need to be better in their support running for instance as too often the break was made and the ball was recycled and Wales looked like they were short of ideas and the momentum was lost.

Interesting read kiakahaaotearoa

The other shining light has been the inspiration of Priestland at ten, half way between stoic, modest control and fast attacking flair. His game suits Wales far better than his recent predecessors.

Yeah that was a good gamble on the part of Gatland. Not sure the Hook gamble paid off completely though and Stephen Jones probably has an unceremonious end to his career now.

I am sure When SJ finally retires there will be plenty of ceremony.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Yeah that was a good gamble on the part of Gatland. Not sure the Hook gamble paid off completely though and Stephen Jones probably has an unceremonious end to his career now.

no he knows that there is no back up to Priest - Hook is on a hiatus and won't figure at 10 this season

The thing about potential is realising it,the strength of any International side is its roots and infrastructure.From schoolboys up,Wales always had a strong Club infrastructure.I presume it still exists in some form at a lower
level than Magners League[or whatever it`s called now].
IF you go on the various leagues in the 5Ns,say 50 players per squad tops.
Player Pools[less imports]England 12 teams,France 14,Wales4 ,Ireland 4,Scotland 2,then a large disparity of player pools emerge.Discount 45% France total for imports,England have now a young side [assuming]players like Wilkinson,Tindall,and the rest of the old guard are gone.
Wales if they build on a good RWC,with the likes of North,Priestland,Faletau,Warburton coming thru are in a good starting position.
The Law changes,elminating the Pause command at Scrum time,reverting to the pre 1991 Maul law [Maul Going forward wins the Scrum feed].
BUT especially 5 seconds at Ruck use it or lose it will mean more positive play.
IF they further amend the laws,for missed Dropped Goal .22 drop out,missed Penalty,Scrum at the spot attackers feed.
THEN if the trialled points is adopted,5 for try,3 conversion,2 for drop,Penalties.
Even a differential penalty i.e no kick at goal for certain offences a FREE KICK instead.
IF to touch,normal Line out NOT advantage to the kickers,then maybe cynical fouls.Risking 2 not 8 maybe not advantageous as now.

Interesting thoughts on the possible law changes. I agree with your points on the roots of rugby being the most important, I fear than in Wales the schools rugby had fallen by the way side after years of neglect through the awful Thatcher years where schools became less and less funded.

There has been a massive effort to help promote rugby at school level, and improve the coaching for kids too.

In England its our depression thats in the (proven) potential and dispite the results.

(after 2000 - 03 we want it all)

damage_13 wrote:(after 2000 - 03 we want it all)

Want or Expect?

Big difference, especially when discussing a teams potential relating to their gradual progress. 2003 lit a spark in Wales, things started to click together faster behind the scenes, people realised that the way to try and lift Welsh rugby from the doldrums of the nineties was not the responsibility of a media titled "Great Redeemer" it was everyones responsibility, from those who are young enough to play and have the talent, those who can coach, those who can support in any way...!

Wales has seen a huge re-juvination in its ability to produce good rugby players. We have a wealth of talented skilled and well coached young players coming through academies, raising the levels of the Premiership Clubs and the Regions year by year.

damage_13 wrote:In England its our depression thats in the (proven) potential and dispite the results.

(after 2000 - 03 we want it all)

Old and irrelevant history

"If you look at the whole of 2011 it has been a mixed bag for Wales, 2010 was better in many ways, 2009 better still, 2008 definitely the best of the bunch."

It's this opening sentence I just can't agree with aside from 2008 being the best. How exactly is 2010 a better year than 2011? We won exactly two games in 2010, beating Italy and barely beating Scotland at home! This year we did what we couldn't last year and overcame the likes of England, Ireland (twice) and Fiji (by a landslide). We played better rugby and generally looked far more competitive against the top sides. 2008 may be the best under Gatland but 2011 definitely comes in close second.

I'd say it's a mix of both, not many expected us to do as well as we did in terms of results and the results themselves are down to a central group of players the likes of whom haven't been around for more than a couple of seasons at most.

This is promising and it's good to be optimistic but not to an exaggerated extent. More than praise the youth, we now need to get behind them and cheer them to play as well as they have been playing these past few months. We've shown what we can do, now it's time to suck it back up and pick up where we left off, in other words get consistant.

Yes to the answer and the relative age grade success for England teams for a while now needs to filter through to the first team (EPS).
I believe this is starting to happen & recent events at WC & RFU should increase the speed of it.

Knowsit17 wrote:
I'd say it's a mix of both, not many expected us to do as well as we did in terms of results and the results themselves are down to a central group of players the likes of whom haven't been around for more than a couple of seasons at most.

This is promising and it's good to be optimistic but not to an exaggerated extent. More than praise the youth, we now need to get behind them and cheer them to play as well as they have been playing these past few months. We've shown what we can do, now it's time to suck it back up and pick up where we left off, in other words get consistant.

Personally I notice that every year we are finding a larger and larger pool of talent coming through, the academies are also working hard with the WRU to find areas of squad weakness we need to target.

Look at how when we were worried about Martyn Williams not making the RWC squad, by the time the RWC came around Martyn was possibly third choice as openside. All the players in contention under the age of 23.

Gatts wrote:

damage_13 wrote:In England its our depression thats in the (proven) potential and dispite the results.

(after 2000 - 03 we want it all)

Old and irrelevant history

ok then... we played poorly yet made the final in 07, so we expected a better run in to the RWC this time with a more competitive squad.

damage

i had you as a safe bet in the final, french quarter probably an aussie semi and then NZ when for me anything can happen in a final v a nation under extreme pressure.

I maintian that off field antics destroyed england's campaign, couple dwith an impotent gameplan and too many egos.

I hope lessons are elarend and england will be back for the autumn / 6 nations 2013.

I maintain that you're wrong. On all counts.

England rugby fan wrote:I maintain that you're wrong. On all counts.

well of course you would because you are the cliched england rugby fan, your moniker illustrates the mediocrity and low standards of that element who aren't prepared to face the facts and believe that the behaviour the EPS got up to was somehow justifiable and just 'banter'...had you won the world cup and not been ignominiously dumped out you could argue that, but you were just that, ignominiously dumped out.

Gatts wrote:

England rugby fan wrote:I maintain that you're wrong. On all counts.

well of course you would because you are the cliched england rugby fan, your moniker illustrates the mediocrity and low standards of that element who aren't prepared to face the facts and believe that the behaviour the EPS got up to was somehow justifiable and just 'banter'...had you won the world cup and not been ignominiously dumped out you could argue that, but you were just that, ignominiously dumped out.

And you're not a cliched Welsh rugby fan that believes the behaviour of the EPS (which is 32 players by the way) caused them to lose against France ? What was the excuse for Wales losing against them ? Players on a night out and fighting between themselves ? 3 kickers who couldn't manage to kick the ball between the posts when required ?

Just like Wales were.

Having been fortunate to experience our golden years,please dont over intellectualise things-just enjoy what comes.Things are looking good and will hopefully get better.Sit back,cheer and enjoy!

Hardly high brow stuff Eastbourne...!

What I am saying is that I think in the rwc03 Wales play inspired a rugby culture back into life. There is a good reason Wales are doing well, that we have players developing, that academies are producing. It reminds me of what it was like many years ago. Not quite there yet. But things are moving in the right direction.

Very good Blog by Paul Rees in the Guardian website this morning, about the future of Welsh Rugby and what is happening behind the scenes.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/dec/02/wales-world-cup-golden-era

And another good read on the Telegraphs pages...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/8928961/Paul-Hayward-Wales-coach-Warren-Gatland-rejoices-in-an-excess-of-youthful-moderation.html

“They’re the first generation of players to come through the academy system and dominate the national team,” he says. “The old amateur rugby days where you went training on Tuesday and Thursday, played on Saturday and then spent all Saturday night in the bar — a lot of these guys haven’t experienced that.
“They’re used to getting up and going into the gym early. You can see that in this group. They’ve just got a fantastic attitude. They’re hungry, they’ve got a great work ethic, both on and off the field.”

“I remember two years ago when Dan Lydiate played in this corresponding fixture he learnt a big lesson because he was out of his depth. He was miles off it. To see how important he is now — to see a youngster come on and develop — is a real plus for the coaching staff.
“Some of those youngsters are only going to get better, whether it’s Scott Williams or Rhys Priestland or George North, who has the potential to be a world superstar. ”