Munster vs Edinburgh

THOMOND PARK - 8.30pm - Live on BBC Alba

Edinburgh XXIII:

15 Chris Paterson

14 Sep Visser
13 Jim Thompson
12 James King
11 Tom Brown

10 Phil Godman
9 Mike Blair

1 Kyle Traynor
2 Steven Lawrie CAPTAIN
3 Jack Gilding
4 Sean Cox
5 Steven Turnbull
6 Netani Talei
7 Ross Rennie
8 Stuart McInally

Substitutes
16 Andrew Kelly
17 Robin Hislop
18 Lewis Niven
19 Esteban Lozada
20 Roddy Grant
21 Greig Laidlaw
22 Harry Leonard
23 Gregor Hunter

Matt Scott and Dumper Denton still injured, Ross Ford, Tim MacVisser (altho little brother Sepp plays) Le Jones, NDL and Grant Gilchrist rested from the pack after their heroics vs RM, Lozada takes a break on the bench with Turnbull packing down with the returning-after-ban Sean Cox, Andy Kelly back from injury, (good)Godman gets his chance returning from a long injury, Traynor and Gilding not the strongest front row, with Hislop and Niven as cover. Jim Thompson moves to OC to make way for Mossy, and Tom Brown moves to the wing for Jones. Youngsters Leonard and Hunter on the bench will hopefully get some more gametime to continue with their development

Im glad to see Tim Visser absent.

With 13 of his squad unavailable through injury - - six of those current internationals - and the likes of Paul O'Connell, Ronan O'Gara and Conor Murray unavailable to him because of national squad policy, Tony McGahan gives a host of his younger players the opportunity to make an impression in the RaboDirect PRO12 game with Edinburgh on Saturday.

01 Marcus Horan
02 Denis Fogarty
03 Stephen Archer
04 Donncha O'Callaghan
05 Mick O'Driscoll capt
06 Billy Holland
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Paddy Butler
09 Tomas O'Leary
10 Ian Keatley
11 Simon Zebo
12 Danny Barnes
13 Will Chambers
14 Luke O'Dea
15 Denis Hurley

Replacements: Sean Henry, John Ryan, John Hayes, Ian Nagle, James Coughlan, Duncan Williams, Tom Gleeson, Scott Deasy.

Not considered because of injury: D Wallace, J Flannery, Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, M Sherry, P Borlase, Darragh Hurley, Dave O'Callaghan, K Earls, F Jones, I Dineen, S Scanlon, T Smith.

Seems like 2 squads resting their key players. I'm hoping Edinburgh will have enough in the backrow to dictate the breakdown.

It'll be interesting to see how young Visser does. Big Bro left some hige shoes to fill.

Can see this being a comfortable Edinburgh wing, looks like a very weak Munster side to me. Front row and back 3 mainly I think and none of the other areas other than second row look healthy

Surely half backs are a source of strenght Pete?

O'Leary and Keatley is an excellent backup pairing. I think the front row will do ok. Its the backrow as Radge alluded to and also back 3 (though Zebo is the kinda guy who could actually do very well).

Im backing Munster to win. Edinburgh have rested too many to win in Thomond.

Ahhh forgot it was in Thomond thought it was in Murrayfield........hmm torn now I must say. Is a very weak team though.

Is it really that weak? Its a far cry from our best XV but to me Edinburgh are much worse off than we are.

Team looks a nice mix with strong performers/leaders especially in the pack (Holland, MOD and DOC for example).

Looking forward to seeing Zebo get some broken field running and Hurley is pretty good. Munster win I reckon.

Wow that is a weak Edinburgh team - especially the front 5.

Luckily Munster aren't playing their 1st team or else that would be a humping!

Shame we're resting so many as could be a realy chance to get a win in Munster.

Really have no idea who will win looking at the teams but will go for Munster for home advantage!

Both teams resting key players. The Edinburgh backs and back row look ok but as pointed out above, that front row is going to fold like a cheap suit.

It's at Thomond Park. Munster will win.

Perhaps I am rating this particular Edinburgh team too highly? Just appears to me to be a very weak Munster team.

But is it that weak?

Marcus Horan, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Tomas O'Leary were all front line internationals not so long ago.

Danny Barnes, Denis Hurley and Will Chambers have all played in both of our HEC matches against Saints and Castres this season.

Ian Keatley is having a superb start to the season and Fogarty has been a solid squad player for several years and was on the bench when we last won the Heineken Cup.

We have 2 inexperienced wingers and an inexperienced prop and an admittadly poor backrow.

Horan, Fogarty, MOD, TOL, Holland I would consider poor.
DOC, Keatley, Hurley, Barnes I would consider good players.
I'd consider many of them and many of the combinations very inexperienced also.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Horan, Fogarty, MOD, TOL, Holland I would consider poor.
DOC, Keatley, Hurley, Barnes I would consider good players.
I'd consider many of them and many of the combinations very inexperienced also.

All good players. Tol vg and heading back to the ireland squad. You havent been watching much lately i take it given the uninformed opinion

Pete its not the HEC we're playing though. Munster won the ML last season by doing this. Picking and choosing key games to rotate the squad. We'll win this game with this squad.

When you voice opinions try not to use the lazy stereotypes from a non munster perspect. Some are good, some are inexperienced, some are of intl standard. Take billy holland. Did you ever see the munster aus or nz games.

Didn't Holland play 2nd row in those games DOD? Has he moved to 6 now?

I've always liked MOD, solid player and very good around the park. Is he still the player he was?

TOL is playing pretty well and its usually me slagging him off. I think he will put pressure on Murray so hopefully that will bring both players on.

Yes...he can play second row or back row. Pretty decent player at both. Is a good solid player for Munster...could do a job if required at HC level. MOD rarely has a bad game for Munster. Not sure if its his last year or not,

What about poor Strings...discarded....

Sorry Eire, but Stag and others here will atest to my criticisms of TOL over the past year and since January inparticular, but the 15 mins aginast Leinster and two cameo's off the bench in the HEC, have shown that, somehow, he has rediscovered a good chunk of his 2009 form. To say anything else is simply churlish. A bit like Luke Fitz (another player I was fairily critical of last season) you have to acknowledge it when they raise their levels back up.

Archer is inexperienced but I feel he has the potenial to be a very good TH, and working with BJ should be doing his game wonders. MOD is MOD limited, not really Int standard but a good honest hard working player, the template for a second row really. Donners will be looking to hit all and sundry to get his starting berth back for the December HC rounds so his intensity could be really something special to witness.

This must be the first game in about 20 that Hurley has started at FB?! Stag, care to enlighten/correct me?! He knows the position and i think he is able to put Zebo into space adter taking the ball on himself. Could be a weird and entertaining game, given the make up of both teams and the sub-plots re places for the upcoming HC rounds for both sides, esp as Edinburgh are in an excellent position in their group.

DOD wrote:What about poor Strings...discarded....

Starting for the Barbarians along with the likes of Jerome Kaino, Brian Habanna, Victor Matfield, Stirling Mortlock.

I'd say he's happier.

red_stag wrote:

DOD wrote:What about poor Strings...discarded....

Starting for the Barbarians along with the likes of Jerome Kaino, Brian Habanna, Victor Matfield, Stirling Mortlock.

I'd say he's happier.

For sure...but looks like the end of an era...

Yea it does and its a pity. He appears to have fallen to 4th place for Munster. You'd think a season in Connacht would have been great for all. He turns 34 years old next week. The body can only take so much.

Thats a good opportunity for strings to show what he still has left. Its a well deserved honour for him so fair play, I'm sure he'll enjoy the experience.

DOD wrote:
What about poor Strings...discarded....

Ah at this stage DOD, the game has passed him by. Not his fault and his honesty of effort is what EVERY professional sports han should strive for every day, but as crisp and accurate and rangey as his passing is, he is not a running threat. (now I do not need to be reminded of his two HUGELY important runs that won a HC and a Grand Slam (lineout move v Scotland in Murrayfield when we badly needed somehting to happen he put Jamie in space, game breaker) for Munster & Ireland.

He is 33+ and we have serious options and with guys like Murray, born for the Int game, TOL coming back to his best and then the young guys coming through, we are well served at SH. He gets a fat payday anyway v Aus and can retire a happy man at the end of the season, if he wants. Must finish his career here to get his tax rebate (or whats left of it)

red_stag wrote:Yea it does and its a pity. He appears to have fallen to 4th place for Munster. You'd think a season in Connacht would have been great for all.

Maybe...but Frank Murphy is probably playing well enough...

Maybe Strings will get a year abroad...you never know (Brive were going to sign Frankie ffs.... )

Debaters..yeah whats the story with the tax rebate?

He'd be a luanatic to head abroad. He'd lose his IRFU taxback pension.

If you're gonna move abroad your as well to do it like Jennings or J.Murphy or Reddan etc.

Move when young and then head back to Ireland.

Lads,

What's the physicality of that bacline like? (good)Godman is a shrimp (literally), James King is pretty small and JT is a very slight player, although a fantastic runner. Throw in Tom Brown who is small, Paterson who is very small and Sep Visser is the only big lad in there - and this is his 2nd or 3rd pro game or something!

So will you lads dominate us physically in the backs?

Will Chambers appears to be very physical. Not sure of his actual height but I'd say def 6 foot 2 and physcial going forward.

Aside from that it wouldn't be that physical. Hurley can look after himself but isn't a huge player. Same with Barnes.

From memory, you get a certain percentage of your tax back as a lump sum rebate, obv like any other PAYE worker, they paid their tax upfront (and IRUPU i think would have insisted that every member has a quid pro quo pension contribution from the IRFU.

There was chat of the rabte being tweeked/capped/even abolished in the recent budgets but cant remember if anything was done. to be honest, if the did actually adapt the legislation, basically none of the pros that it was designed for would actually benefit. I mean, MOK, Quinny, Axel and a few others have obviously retired but it is the next 18months that that group will be collectively kicking back to coaching/pundit roles.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not seriously lamenting the fact that guys earning up €500,000 arent going to get full value for their special sports person tax arrangments, but given the nature of the game, the fact (right or wrong like it or loathe it) the pension deal was part of the incentive package to keep our players homebased, and thus the provinces srtong, to undo it now would be perhaps short sighted. Dont want to kick off a political row, just talking of this one issue related to pro sportsmen (rugby in particular)

Reckon James King and Jim Thompson are gonna hurt after this one :ouch:

What do people think about Barnes at 12? Best I've seen him play was on the wing?

roddersm wrote:What do people think about Barnes at 12? Best I've seen him play was on the wing?

Munster have no #12 apart from Mafi. We need to keep experimenting.

Barnes, Chambers, Earls, Keatley, Hanrahan and O'Leary are IMO all worth a game or two at inside cetnre.

Stag, Keatley can play 12 but obviously his value/importance as 10 cover is potentiall put it jeporady. TOL at 12.....interesting. I think now that Chambers has settled in at 13, Barnes might be good at 12. As I have said bfore though, some informed people think he has potential to be a pretty damn good 13 so that would be my preference, if we are keeping Earls on the wing.

DOD wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Horan, Fogarty, MOD, TOL, Holland I would consider poor.
DOC, Keatley, Hurley, Barnes I would consider good players.
I'd consider many of them and many of the combinations very inexperienced also.

All good players. Tol vg and heading back to the ireland squad. You havent been watching much lately i take it given the uninformed opinion

Haven't missed a game DOD and I don't think any of my opinions are uninformed there fore obviously. I still don't like TOL as I feel he isn't a good "scrumhalf" good athlete but a poor scrumhalf (see last few minutes of NH game).

Never like MOD but mainly because he was never any good for Ireland, I accept he did do well for Munster at times for sure, but I don't think he is a good player myself and definitely worse than how he was in 09.

Only options out of those I could see doing well at 12 are Hanrahan and Keatley. Not a chance are the others 12s.

Chambers is leaving after the pool stages though. We will need to try out a few new things.

I don't understand why Keatley is in jepordy as cover at 10 if he is at 12. If ROG gets injured he simply moves to 10 and a new player plays at 12.

I also think Barnes should look at playing wing.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Only options out of those I could see doing well at 12 are Hanrahan and Keatley. Not a chance are the others 12s.

We'll never know til we try

Keatley has played 12 before and been awesome! Saw him for Ireland against Connacht and he was seriously good.
TOL could try playing 12 but he may be better placed on the wing.

Well lets be realisitc a minute.

Earls, Howlett, Hurley, Murphy, Zebo, O'Leary and Barnes can't all be wingers.

As I see it we are over heavy with wingers. By contrast we have only 2 recognised centres - Mafi and Chambers (who leaves in January).

Someone has to be out of position.

Why isn't Hanrahan getting more gametime stag? And no I do know the likes of Earls will never be effective at 12. He doesn't have the hands or distribution skills. Same way I know Ian Humphreys could never play fullback, as he can't tackle for his life.

Right so we play Mafi every game?

Keatley in at 12 at times.
Barnes in at 13.
Johne Murphy can play there to varying degrees of success eek

Last season we tried J.Murphy - it failed drastically and hasn't been used again.

No problem we learnt from our mistakes. We tried Barnes and it had some success. If Keatley can show himself to be a decent option at 12, great.

red_stag wrote:Right so we play Mafi every game?

Please re-read my posts I asked about another option, and have already said I like Keatley as an option at 12.

That's just it Stag, we are phooked at 12. Mafi, when playing well is good, but when not playing well is worse than useless. What I mean about Keatley at 12, and he is a good 12 too, is that I always think worst case scenario, and the should ROG need a stitch or two, and then Keatley gets a knock at 10, TOL would prob be the one to slot in at 10. Now that can happen anyway, but starting them both does increase the chances of having to utilise a 3rd option at 10 on any given Sunday. If you get me?!

However, the idea of playing the two of them together with Chmabers and a hit back 3 of Earls, Howlett & Jones is exciting. Unlikely for both Jones & Earls to back in Jan before Chambers goes, but that would be some potent backline with Murray at SH too. Actually, i love the sound of the backline.....

In fact, phook it, TOL, Deasy/Mafi & Hurley on the bench and simply roll the dice!

I love Keatley as a 12. If he can do a job there then we don't need to try Earls, O'Leary etc.

Re: Hanarahan. Couldn't tell you. I've been TJ in the AIL for Bohs a few times this season and he's done ok. Not great but not poor. And he seems to be at 10 all the time now.

red_stag wrote:Last season we tried J.Murphy - it failed drastically and hasn't been used again.

He played at 12 against Toulon at Thomond Park. Munster won 45-18! If that is drastically failing, I'd love to see what you rate as successful!

Of the 8 games he played as a centre for Munster in the Magners, Munster won all 8 (including the 24-23 defeat of Leinster in Thomond where he played as outside centre).

THe Game is on BBC Alba right now, cracking start

Munster 7 - 5 Edinburgh

Cracking match, real dog fight...! 10 - 5