Ulster v Scarlets 2nd December 2011 at Ravenhill KO 7.05pm

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Ulster
(15-9): A D'Arcy; A Trimble, D Cave, N Spence, C Gilroy; I Humphreys, P Marshall;
(1-8): T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (capt), D Tuohy, S Ferris, C Henry, P Wannenburg;

Replacements (16-23): N Brady, P McAllister, A Macklin, L Stevenson, R Diack, R Pienaar, P Jackson, I Whitten

Scarlets:

15-9 Dan Evans, Iongi, Reynolds, Warren, Lamont, Jones, Gareth Davies
1-8 John, Owens, Manu, Reed, Powell, Gilbert, McCusker, Murphy

16-23 Phillips, Iestyn Thomas, Gardiner, Welch, Edwards, Rhodri Williams, Newton, Iolo Evans.

If that is the case MrsP then i would question the doctor who gave the estimation. He was back last week a full two weeks before round 3 of the Heineken.

It is obvious he is regarded as our 3rd choice 12 which i cannot fathom.

Gilroy really frustrated me tonight; he seems to have a lack of confidence in his ability to reach the try line and beat defenders, which are his best attributes. When he decided to try and kick instead of get past the scarlets winger, I screamed at my TV. He shows glimpses of this at times, but he needs to actually deliver like he used to. Marshall hasn't had a chance at all this season, then got injured and now isn't even in the HEC squad. I'm sure there were some concerns but it was naive to go into the HEC with just one 12 tbh. Is Whitten in the HEC squad?

Standulstermen wrote:If that is the case MrsP then i would question the doctor who gave the estimation. He was back last week a full two weeks before round 3 of the Heineken.

It is obvious he is regarded as our 3rd choice 12 which i cannot fathom.

I would say he is more likely to be 4th choice after Wallace, Spence and Whitten. He should be at the least second choice.

Before we get Notch in here i think Marshall should be 2nd choice (ie definitely not in front of Paddy yet) but i also think he is a clear 2nd choice.

For all his raw talent i dont think spence has the brain to play 12. Marshall clearly has

To be fair to the medics... ..I think he suffered the injury not long before the squad had to be submitted.

It may have seemed the prudent thing to do.

I have heard that he was back four full weeks ahead of schedule as well to be fair Stand.

A lbp, away against Ulster, with a load of our 1st choice players missing. Yeah I'll take that. Looking forward to the highlights now.

Where was Ben Morgan?

Rested, prop, he's played a ridiculous amount of rugby recently and with 2 rounds of the Heineken coming up, he needed a break. Don't want our players burnt out before the new year.

Ah ok fair enough.....been getting rave reviews from what i've heard too!!

yep after a slow start, the last 4 games he's been in great form.

oh and before I forget, da iawn/well done to Ulster on the win

I think you should adopt Ulster as your Irish team Dreamer, all the classy people do. Mind you it will upset Gibbo, who believes Leinster are the Irish version of the Scarlets who have learnt how to cheat from Munster.

(the last bit's a joke, yeah )

Considering the team that was sent they played fairly well. Could even have nicked a draw at the end.

Best team won at the end but the Scarlets will take some positives from their performance. A lbp in Ulster with largely a second side is pretty decent.

Congrats Ulster

Am disappointed by the lack of fight at the breakdown and a porous defensive line - but it was a good game, Ulster played well and the ref had a good game so it was flowing.

I def would have taken a LBP before the game though...

Notch

Like i say i would question the initial prognosis if he is back so early. Either that or he is wolverine.

Either way he should have been our first choice 12 during the RWC but instead we played two 13's

I agree, but if I was the coach and I was told he'd miss three/four games I'd probably have taken a gamble on Paddy Wallaces fitness too. That gamble backfired.

I would criticise our selection of Spence at the start of the season but it actually worked ok in our first three games.

I don't think the Spence is not a 12 thing is rocket science though- the wider he goes in attack, the more effective he is. You'll see that if you watch the game again.

Very much so notch. He was definitely getting the ball a lot wider than he previously had been and was able to find space and hit shoulders, breaking the tackles.

He is a monster in contact but i do think the basic passing skills have been coached out of him (or rather not needed in the previous gameplans). He just doesnt look up to pass at all and when he did it wasnt on. The pass into the back of the scarlets player was clearly a set move that wasnt on but he still threw it. I think there is also an element of overcoaching (as well as poor coaching) in the backs. They dont seem to be able/willing/allowed? to play whats in front of them.

He hasn't got the rugby nous to play 12. Wallace will never, and has never, been able to burst through tackles like him but he makes very good decisions and reads the game well. Spence- I can't see him developing that level of footballing intelligence.

Notch wrote:I don't think the Spence is not a 12 thing is rocket science though- the wider he goes in attack, the more effective he is. You'll see that if you watch the game again.

Totally agree with this.

I have high hopes for Luke Marshall though. He has it all, he just needs to get some gametime sometime- it'll take time for him to develop that decision making and composure. I suspect this Six Nations will be his breakthrough. He'll have to be patient. I can see him getting some gametime over Christmas and New Year as well.

Adam D'Arcy has really staked his claim as well, delighted about that.

D'arcy has always been capable of poor performances but given the bitty nature of his involvement this season i think the couple of mistakes last week can be excused. That performance was much more what i expected from him.

I do hope he keeps his spot for the Aironi games as we need to get 4 tries in each game badly. Marshall and Spence will be the future at centre for Ulster i am sure although i do rate cave i just think the nous and all round ability of marshall and the strike running and physicality of spence is suited perfectly.

I also have high hopes for Marshall, as well as Gilroy, Spence, and even Faloon and their possible international ambitions for the future. However, they seem to be really suffering now under the current setup, getting a lack of game-time, being played out of position or really being forgotten about (Gaston really falls under this category).

Also I have to say our missed tackles for Scarlets 2nd and 3rd tries were as jaw-droppingly bad as Wannenburgs dodgy pass. Just completely losing focus at key moments.

Spence had another good game. He'd be fine at 12 if Humphreys was showing any form. Humph has been so poor that Ulster need a creative distributor and a tactical kicker at inside centre to make up for his shortcomings.

If Pienaar was at 10, Spence would be fine at 12. I'm a big fan of Luke Marshall too but there is a danger that he is getting overhyped here. The coaches deservedly are getting stick for the team's performances but I can understand their decision to omit Luke from the HEC squad.
Firstly he wasn't expected to return so soon and the coaches would be wanting a settled midfield to exploit Aironi.
Secondly it would be a bit much to expect LM to come back against Leinster and Munster as preparation for the Tigers and Clermont.
Thirdly it would be probably be Whitten whose place he would have taken in the squad so is it better to have a definitely fit experienced player as cover or one who might be unfit and is certainly inexperienced?

Just watched a video online from Ferris after the game Notch where he was congratulated on his MOTM. First thing he mentioned was how disappointed he was for the 3rd try. Thats the sort of professionalism we need at Ulster

Aukster

I am fairly certain we will see Marshall (Luke) feature against Leinster. Traditionally we send a 2nd team down to the away fixture and then focus on the home game. I do think he will get gametime. I dont think Marshall is being overhyped he is just clearly our 2nd best 12. He showed that in the Ospreys and Dragons games when he was the only one making breaks.

I understand completely why he wasnt selected the last two games but my point is that is omission from the HEC squad was based on a call which seems ludicrous (4 weeks early from a broken jaw!) I do agree mind you that Humph is a big issue at the moment but as Notch mentions Spence was receiving the ball an awful lot wider than a traditional 12 would last night and that helped him.

His tackling is superb though. he is like a brick wall.

No I agree the right call was made on Marshall re. the Heineken Cup actually. Unfortunate the prognosis was wrong is all.

But you're wrong, Spence isn't going to learn when to look for the pass, when and how to give it, when to use his feet in contact instead of trying to power through because someone else is at 10.

In a sense you are right in that Humph often sits too deep and doesn't control the game well at all, so a better performing Humphreys would really help him. But he's not going to ever be a better 12 than a 13.

The Great Aukster wrote:Spence had another good game. He'd be fine at 12 if Humphreys was showing any form. Humph has been so poor that Ulster need a creative distributor and a tactical kicker at inside centre to make up for his shortcomings.

If Pienaar was at 10, Spence would be fine at 12. I'm a big fan of Luke Marshall too but there is a danger that he is getting overhyped here. The coaches deservedly are getting stick for the team's performances but I can understand their decision to omit Luke from the HEC squad.
Firstly he wasn't expected to return so soon and the coaches would be wanting a settled midfield to exploit Aironi.
Secondly it would be a bit much to expect LM to come back against Leinster and Munster as preparation for the Tigers and Clermont.
Thirdly it would be probably be Whitten whose place he would have taken in the squad so is it better to have a definitely fit experienced player as cover or one who might be unfit and is certainly inexperienced?

Disagree about Spence. I think he is an outside back and will never be a good 12 for Ulster or Ireland. He can do a job yes, but it is a waste of his talents and he ends up becoming a crash ball centre. All 12s need to be creative in rugby imo, either that or be as big as Roberts and be an extremely effective crash option. All other 12s are clever distributors (Nonu, SBW, Steyn, Jauzion etc).

Spence reminds me of a young D'Arcy at the moment. He always makes ground with the ball in hand and is solid in defence. D'Arcy's best position too was probably 13, but that didn't stop him being a world class 12 at his peak.

Watched the game back this morning.

The thing Ulster lack, above all, is killer instinct. We can ramp it up for Clermont, or Biarrtiz, but when we are better than the opposition we underperform. Our intensity drops way off.

Ferris was head and shoulders above every other player on the pitch. Cave was busy, Spence showed his physicality.

Paul Marshall has been good or very good for about four games in a row. What other nine in Ireland would have tried his nip around the ruck and kick and chase? We've all made up our mind about him - he's upset us enough in the past with truly bewildering decisions. But he's now playing very well. Is he merely in good form, or has he actually learned and improved with having a number of games in a run?

iHumph was horrible. Squandering overlaps, throwing aimless passes in a panic, some horrible positional kicking. And he clearly doesn't trust Spence at 12. I'd agree that Nevin is a 13 rather than a 12, but you have to show some faith in your team-mates in a team game.

I think the quandary is: do you play Pienaar at 10. For the first time, I think a Marshall/Pienaar halfback axis might be our best. Against that - good as Marshall was, Pienaar's passing from rucks and scrums was at another level totally - fast, accurate, direct.

I'd probably start Pienaar and iHumph, but if Ian plays the same way, hook him and move Pienaar in one.

For example, Spence had a great chance to put Cave away for a try but he put it forward.

I don't want to be too critical of Spence though; he made some great bursts for us last night. I think he could actually be an outstanding Trimble-esque winger or a very good strike runner at 13 outside a creative 12.

I really enjoyed last nights game. We played some good rugby. Some headless, stupid- even suicidal!- rugby as well but we improved a lot in attack and thats partly what we were looking for. Just little things like Spence giving a forward pass to Cave when he was clean through, Cave not releasing the ball to Gilroy when he would have been under the posts. Little things that meant we didn't take scoring chances we should have.

Spence is a 13 and iHumph doesn't trust him at 12.

I think the coaches will almost certainly look to start Pienaar/Humph. I dont think that is fair. In the same way i think Porter was harshly treated not getting a start earlier in the year i think it would be massively unfair to Marshall to drop him when he starts playing very well and especially when the issues at half back stem from our 10 and not him.

I would go Marshall/Pienaar and like you Don i have never countenanced saying that before.

Don Alfonso wrote:Watched the game back this morning.

The thing Ulster lack, above all, is killer instinct. We can ramp it up for Clermont, or Biarrtiz, but when we are better than the opposition we underperform. Our intensity drops way off.

Ferris was head and shoulders above every other player on the pitch. Cave was busy, Spence showed his physicality.

Paul Marshall has been good or very good for about four games in a row. What other nine in Ireland would have tried his nip around the ruck and kick and chase? We've all made up our mind about him - he's upset us enough in the past with truly bewildering decisions. But he's now playing very well. Is he merely in good form, or has he actually learned and improved with having a number of games in a run?

iHumph was horrible. Squandering overlaps, throwing aimless passes in a panic, some horrible positional kicking. And he clearly doesn't trust Spence at 12. I'd agree that Nevin is a 13 rather than a 12, but you have to show some faith in your team-mates in a team game.

I think the quandary is: do you play Pienaar at 10. For the first time, I think a Marshall/Pienaar halfback axis might be our best. Against that - good as Marshall was, Pienaar's passing from rucks and scrums was at another level totally - fast, accurate, direct.

I'd probably start Pienaar and iHumph, but if Ian plays the same way, hook him and move Pienaar in one.

Yeah, good post man.

Marshall has been one of the few players to really keep improving across the season and I think he was worked exceptionally hard on the weaknesses in his game especially his passing and kicking. I think he was outstanding last night and outstanding away against Leicester- that was the best game of his career at Welford Road. McLaughlin was right to persevere with him.

I would like to see Pienaar at 10, but this situation has to be handled carefully. He is a 9, and Humphreys confidence needs to be taken into account; as well as Marshalls endeavour, hard work and form. I feel like McLaughlin is waiting for Humphreys to play himself back into form in much the same way as Paul Marshall did- because he was playing as badly at one stage. He was proven right on Marshall.

It's a difficult call. I just wish we had a 10 who could be relied upon to put in consistent performances- thats the difference between Pienaar and the likes of a Humphreys or Marshall.

The Great Aukster wrote:Spence reminds me of a young D'Arcy at the moment. He always makes ground with the ball in hand and is solid in defence. D'Arcy's best position too was probably 13, but that didn't stop him being a world class 12 at his peak.

I'm with you Aukster. I thought he was outstanding. His strength in the tackle is phenomenal. He actually reminds me more of O'Driscoll with his tenacity. He's very raw but his attitude and aggression are exemplary. His reading in defence is outstanding for a player so young. Interesting in how quick some people are to jump on his forward pass but not Caves two or Trimbles from last week.

I thought overall it was a far more positive performance. There was a lot of mistakes and conceding the bonus point could prove costly but the attitude was far better and there was some outstanding attacking play and excellent individual performances expecially Ferris and Marshall.

Ferris was simply phenomenal . The best no 6 in the world right now? His ball carrying was immense and he seems to be in the form of his career right now.

Ihumphs form is still worrying though and he made some awful mistakes again last night. Overall though a far better performance.

Gordon D'Arcy never had the guile, handling or decision making ability to be considered a World Class 12, even at his peak. He could have been a great 13 but unfortunately we lacked quality at 12 when he was playing and still do.

roddrs, I didn't think Cave played too well last night by and large. Though he was ok.

And as for Trimble- thats the reason why he's not a 12 isn't it!

roddersm wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Spence reminds me of a young D'Arcy at the moment. He always makes ground with the ball in hand and is solid in defence. D'Arcy's best position too was probably 13, but that didn't stop him being a world class 12 at his peak.

I'm with you Aukster. I thought he was outstanding. His strength in the tackle is phenomenal. He actually reminds me more of O'Driscoll with his tenacity. He's very raw but his attitude and aggression are exemplary. His reading in defence is outstanding for a player so young. Interesting in how quick some people are to jump on his forward pass but not Caves two or Trimbles from last week.

I thought overall it was a far more positive performance. There was a lot of mistakes and conceding the bonus point could prove costly but the attitude was far better and there was some outstanding attacking play and excellent individual performances expecially Ferris and Marshall.

Ferris was simply phenomenal . The best no 6 in the world right now? His ball carrying was immense and he seems to be in the form of his career right now.

Ihumphs form is still worrying though and he made some awful mistakes again last night. Overall though a far better performance.

Honestly I think the reason people are jumping on Spence more than Cave or Trimble is we all want him to do well. Personally, he is my favourite Ulster player right now bar the usuals (Best, Ferris, Trimble etc) and I want to see him progress. If anyone is like me, I have been watching him very carefully every game and seeing what he does well/not so well. He has such raw talent and I want to see him progress in not only the Ulster team, but Ireland also.

However I cannot agree that he is anything like D'Arcy. He reminds me a lot of a young Trimble, or even like our very own version of Jaque Fourie. He is an outside back who I think will make it either at 13 outside a creative 12 as Notch said, or as a winger. O'Malley to me looks like the D'Arcy/BOD hybrid. Very excited to see him also and would love for him to be the one who plays at 12 as his distribution and creativity is top notch.

And yes Ferris is the best 6 in the world right now Not only is he an outstanding player, but his attitude is inspirational.

Rodders the only reason Spences is highlighted because the pass would probably a led to a walk in score. Spence was good at times last night but rewatch the game and tell me he wasnt standing much much further out. His best breaks came when he was the last man in the line!

He doesnt look to pass and i do think our gameplan/coaching has actually made him regress in this regard. He is not a 12.

Notch wrote:Gordon D'Arcy never had the guile, handling or decision making ability to be considered a World Class 12, even at his peak. He could have been a great 13 but unfortunately we lacked quality at 12 when he was playing and still do.

The best D'Arcy played seemed to be when BOD moved inside and D'Arcy played outside. I think that should have been the combination from the start, as BOD is the genius and brains of the two. I still want to see BOD end his career at 12.

Thats exactly what Spence reminds me of; a young Trimble. Trimble was garlanded when he broke through but he was figured out and he never made it as a centre due to his lack of ability at the basics of passing and handling and his awareness of when to deploy them! I hope Spence CAN do that, i so desperately want him to succeed and develop these basic skills that we need because he will not play centre at international level without them and we really need a good centre to come through! Nothing would make me happier than his success.

I think Spence could be a great winger, but he should stay at centre really- he's been messed around with his position already, not just at Ulster but with Ireland U20s. Is it any wonder he's still a raw talent?

Nonu, SBW or Steyn have all played other positions but presumably because they have learned how to play 12 they are now successful there (just like D'Arcy). Let's not get hung up on the "world class" designation (whatever that means), D'Arcy has been very effective at 12 for Ireland and Leinster for a number of years, precisely because he would make yards and create gaps for Contepomi, BOD, Sexton etc. Spence has obviously been given that role at Ulster and IMO he's making a pretty good fist of it.

I don't understand the criticism of Spence's forward pass as being an example of why he's not a 12? He was in an outside centre position at the time feeding his wing man. So if the criticism is that he can't pass then basically he shouldn't be in midfield at all - neither 12 nor 13. Others threw forward passes as Rodders has said, so should they all move out to the wing!

Cave and Gilroy seem to escape any criticism, yet they were comfortably the worst of the outside backs, so I don't understand the problem with Spence when he had a much better game.

Well I suppose the crux of the debate is that I believe Trimble would have been an outstanding centre if he'd have stayed there...

Spence would be wasted on the wing. Hes not fast enough imo and would be an average back 3 player.

He just needs to work on his passing and he'll be one of the best centres in the NH. What I liked last night was that we split the centres more and Spence moved into the wide channels at times. By switching Cave and Spence round it keeps defences on their toes and brings out the best in both.

Spence's pass was marginally forward and Cave had overrun it. If Cave had of kept his depth it was a try. I thought Cave had a brilliant game though.

Watch it again rodders. Cave didnt overrun it. Cave made mistakes as well last night but overrunning it wasnt one of them.

Aukster using Spence as a strike runner at 13 brings out the best in him. You cant really do that at 12 because he is too close to the big men and it is easier to combat due to the lack of space. Gilroy wasnt great lsat night but it further illustrates my point that we are coaching the natural instincts out of our talented backline. spences pass into the scarlets player was another example.

Spence's passing will have to improve if he wants to make an international centre. Physically he is there already. I really dont think he has made a decent fist of 12 but as i have consistently said it is a lot to do with gameplan and the poor ball he is getting. Rodders mentioned how Cave and Spence split last night and i agree. Last night we saw him get the ball far wider than he has done previously andhe looked far more dangerous as a result. This isnt a coincidence. he is a 13.

Nonu was initially a 12 but was dropped or picked on the wing because he couldnt pass. He worked on it and is now an excellent distributor and probably the best 12 in the world.

The Great Aukster wrote:Nonu, SBW or Steyn have all played other positions but presumably because they have learned how to play 12 they are now successful there (just like D'Arcy). Let's not get hung up on the "world class" designation (whatever that means), D'Arcy has been very effective at 12 for Ireland and Leinster for a number of years, precisely because he would make yards and create gaps for Contepomi, BOD, Sexton etc. Spence has obviously been given that role at Ulster and IMO he's making a pretty good fist of it.

I don't understand the criticism of Spence's forward pass as being an example of why he's not a 12? He was in an outside centre position at the time feeding his wing man. So if the criticism is that he can't pass then basically he shouldn't be in midfield at all - neither 12 nor 13. Others threw forward passes as Rodders has said, so should they all move out to the wing!

Cave and Gilroy seem to escape any criticism, yet they were comfortably the worst of the outside backs, so I don't understand the problem with Spence when he had a much better game.

The point isn't whether or not they started at 12.. it is whether or not they managed to be moulded into 12s as they are now. They all have the distribution skills and creativity to excel there. Most 12s start off in another position it seems anyways, such as 10 or 15. Those 3 players can create gaps and space for the outside backs, but also distribute/offload the ball effectively and have that split second decision making that the likes of BOD has.

This isn't one of Spence's strengths, he is most effective with one of these players inside him, so that he can then exploit the gap that has just been created for him. This also isn't what he is doing for Ulster at 12, what he is doing is being used as a one dimensional battering ram/crash ball centre. Spence for me has to start at 13 or the wing for his skills to be used properly. 13 preferably.

Oh and Rodders, Spence is actually extremely quick and I would say he is one of the fasted in the Ulster squad. His career began as a winger iirc.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I also have high hopes for Marshall, as well as Gilroy, Spence, and even Faloon and their possible international ambitions for the future. However, they seem to be really suffering now under the current setup, getting a lack of game-time, being played out of position or really being forgotten about (Gaston really falls under this category).

I just watched the game today but I agree with you completely here, there are a lot of players in the squad who have a lot of potential but they aren't getting the opportunities. Gaston and Jackson are the most annoying for me as in Jackson's case, we know he has a lot of potential, we know that Hump is the greatest and that he only tries in the hec so give Jackson a go from the start in the Rabo. Gaston looks to be a really promising Ulster born fullback who has a bit of pace about him, is solid under the high ball and defensively sound yet he isn't getting a shot at all.

The backs coaching is fairly poor atm, not as bad as Munster's, but its still pretty poor. The next few weeks will make or break the season because in fairness we are out of the Rabo so we need to stay in Europe or the season will be over before the six nations again.

The backs coaching is fairly poor atm, not as bad as Munster's

To be fair it's optional for Munster. All the backs are too busy training to play like flankers.

If we did end up being all but out of the playoffs race after Christmas, how bad would that be?

After all, I think if a top four place slips away it's the perfect opportunity to blood Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall and maybe give someone like Ian Porter, Chris Cochrane or Conor Gaston a chance to prove themselves as well. If we brought through those young guys this season it would set us up really nicely for next. I hope if we don't turn it around the coaches do give youth a chance and I think they will.

We have Leinster away next in the Rabo (not easy) then Munster at home. So big challenges coming up.

You know what my real hope is? That we get two wins against Aironi and beat Leicester and that sequence of results is enough to get us into the Amlin Cup. Obviously Heineken Cup quarter-final would be epic but its against the odds. I genuinely believe if we dropped into the Amlin we could do really well.

The players can't think that way yet Notch although the coaches would be mad not to look at that as a realistic goal.

Yeah, the players right now should be thinking two good wins against Aironi puts us into contention to win the group and a win or two over Christmas brings us back into contention in the league. Nothing was ever achieved by giving up on your goals when things get tough.

The coaches should be telling them above. But thinking "if we find ourselves there...".