Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

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USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

Leinster really rely on sexton. They aren't nearly as good without him and they are European champions. Time and time he bails Leinster out in tight games and often excels in big games such as his two Hcup final appearances.

His heineken cup and Rabo kicking percentages are usually around 80 percent. Up there with the highest in each comp. His defence is excellent and he scores his fair share of tries yet lots of rugby fans "aren't convinced".

Fair enough but I wouldnt swap him for any other OH in the world bar maybe Carter.

"Fair enough but I wouldnt swap him for any other OH in the world bar maybe Carter"

Unfortunately, its comments like that, that hype him up so much, so every time I watch him I am disappointed.

Apart from kicking 6 out of 7 kicks, do you not think he played well?

What about his crossfield kick to Nacewa that lead to O’Brien’s chance, what about his pass to Fitzgerald that led to his break, what about the wrap around that put Kearney through for his break? That’s not even mentioning his defensive positioning and quality tackling. Just checking out the stats there, he made as many tackles as both Donald and Classens combined and only missed one, they missed 4 between them.

Bathite wrote:"Fair enough but I wouldnt swap him for any other OH in the world bar maybe Carter"

Unfortunately, its comments like that, that hype him up so much, so every time I watch him I am disappointed.

From an Irish perspective I wouldn't swap him for Carter either. When he plays well he is sensational, unplayable at times and able to destroy teams single handedly. He's still a tad inconsistant with his goal kicking at times but I think as he matures he will replace BOD as Irelands talisman. I think he will peak around 30 and we haven't seen the best of him yet.

Think he made 5 or 6 tackles in the first 30 minutes the sky commentators kept highlighting it. Dont know what the finishing count was but be far more than the average out half would have to make.

One thing that got me thinking though was his pass to McLaughlin for the first missed try. Is his passing off his left hand good enough? if that was on the opposite side of the pitch it would have reached McLaughlin. In the build up he gives Fitz a lovely pass off his right then he throws the poor one off his left.

It could be just the one dodgy pass but the munster fans on here used to go on about as a reason for ROG to start (biased i know) but thats the first time ive ever really noticed it. Do you think he needs to improve in that area or was it just a bad pass and nothing more?

Yeah his passing is not as good of his left hand so yes he does need to work on it. Sextons long passing game is not as good as ROG's but he has a much more varied passing game and is better with his short passing and drawing defenders.

"Wouldn't swap him for Carter"

Sorry lads, now I can't take you seriously

Bathite wrote:"Wouldn't swap him for Carter"

Sorry lads, now I can't take you seriously

To be fair that was just me who said that and I'm not a Leinster supporter. I don't mean he is better than Carter, of course he isn't, only that given his natural ability and capacity to improve further I wouldn't swap him for anyone else.

Bathite I think you are a bit disappointed that your WC winning flyhalf got his ass handed to him yesterday.

Sexton was the best 10 on the pitch by quite some distance.

Ok, Carter talk aside. Nobody has said why he shouldn’t be man of the match, and I’ve given a few examples of why I think he should be.

Not really mate, if you knew anything about NZ rugby or rugby in general you would know that his status as 'world cup winning 10' is a bit questionable. Plus he has only played 3 games for us, plus he is injured and plus he was playing against the European champions. Sexton probably was the better 10, but as I say, wasn't outstanding. But again, to repeat myself, an away win with the FH making almost all his kicks and not making any errors, can't complain I guess.

Not disappointed in him at all, his game against Worcester, I was furious with him, but not yesterday. Most Leinster fans have commented on how well we played and it was a nice surprise, good to see us actually attacking with intent, something lacking for the last couple of games.

I was surprised he got MOTM, but then couldn't think of another candidate in either team, so was then satisfied that he got it, for the reasons above. Who did you irish lot think played well for you? Fitzy was brilliant one minute, awful the next I thought, must have been frustrating. Or is that harsh?

Just checked and Sexton made 8 tackles missed one and for Leinster was second only to McFadden who made 11 tackles and missed none.

A bit OTT on the Sexton luv'in that is going on here.
If I'm honest, Leinster played poor for most of that game. A damning indictment of where Bath are as a club is that they couldn't capitalise on that poor Leinster display. Joe picked the most physical side he could assemble for this game (McL, VDM, Browne, Boss, McF at OC). And then Bath sought contact on offense instead of attacking space. One of the few times Banahan didn't try to run over his opponent during that game he took a fab line and tore through Leinster.
Leinster will get more mobile for the return leg, get a bollacking in training for the week and be far more focused on execution in Lansdowne Road. Wouldn't be surprised to see Healy, Reddan and EOM start to put more tempo into the game. I'd like to see Jennings on for McL for the same reason. Toner for Browne and McF taking over from Darcy (cos EOM gets OC) would be my final 2 preferred shake ups for Saturday.

I think that's fair enough Bathite Fitzgerald, the entire team in the first half in fact, kicked too much. Suppose we were looking to invite Bath onto us, soak up the pressure and break when it was on, which it was, and we did, but we just weren't accurate. If we had finished those simple chances we'd be talking of how we were able to up the pressure and score when it was on. Basically what i'm saying is that the tactics were good, the intent was good, but the accuracy was off.

thought Fitz looked at his most dangerous for a while. Apart from kicking it out on the full when he shouldn't have kicked at all i dont think he did much wrong. Loved it when Banahan broke the line in the first half and Fitz put him down one on one.

I agree though there wasnt many stand out players Kearney had a good game (not passing to Nacewa aside)

Fitzgerald would have been my MOTM or even Nacewa.

I thought Leinster were excellent actually, apart from bombing the tries. The set piece was excellent, bar the lineout when Cronin came on.

I thought they really ground down bath in the 1st half, soaking up everything Bath threw at them in attack. Bath played out of their skins but Leinster hung in there and broke them in the 2nd half.

Anyone concerned about O'Briens form? The RWC QF seems to have dented his confidence a bit. He made two stunning breaks but it looks like he's trying too hard to run over the top of people rather than playing with his head up.

Leinster and Toulouse look so at home on this stage it is scary. I'm not saying they wont slip up, but it looks unlikely for either in the group stage. I mean if Leinster actually click...

Anyone concerned about O'Briens form? The RWC QF seems to have dented his confidence a bit. He made two stunning breaks but it looks like he's trying too hard to run over the top of people rather than playing with his head up.

Couldn't believe it when he butchered that 4 on 1. That really should have been some basic hands and an easy try in the corner. Pretty shocking really, as you say needs to get his head up and look around rather than just trying to use his power.

Sexton played well in a team that was struggling. Don't see why Carter was brought into the debate (sorry Leinster boys but Dan is on another level). Donald was poor and Sexton outplayed him comfortabley. Was a little suprised Sexton didn't look to play a little more territory and try to pressure Barkley and Donald's kicking from hand as they looked a tad ropey in that department.

I was majorally impressed by Bath they showed a lot of heart and really stepped up to the fight, I think their supporters should feel quite proud by how much determination they had, particualrily Louw and Caldwell. Fair play lads.

From a Leinster perspective this was one we could have and probably should have won by 15 or so. Great defense mostly, and good game management but lacked the accuracy that we displayed against Glasgow for instance. We were two passes away from from having an extra 10 points on them.

VDM-4
Have been unimpressed this season. His scrummaging is worse than Healy's and he offers less in the loose, he is a good tackler though.
Strauss-6
Another good shift, good carries, tough work at the breakdown and the tackle area. Accurate from touch.
Ross-5
Really am questioning his fitness now I must say, he is jogging and not running too often. Good scrummaging but not much else IMO.
Browne-5.5
Put in some great defensive work, not much carrying but was a menace at rucks as well.
Cullen-6
Good in the air, and carried better than in previous games. Still lost multiple yards in the tackle though. Steadied the ship when necessary.
McLaughlin-6
Tackled hard and made an impact at the breakdown but Jennings offers much more in attack. Good work in the lineout.
SOB-7
Despite the butchered try, he still made a few linebreaks, some good carries, won a few turnovers and was defensively sound.
Heaslip-7.5
Played really well in defence and was on his feet working hard in rucks a lot. Carried well enough and came up with some big plays.
Boss-5.5
Didn't offer as much of a threat to the fringes as I expected. Service is slower than reddans but did defend well when necessary.
Sexton-8
Put his team in a good few positions to score tries, defended brilliantly, kicked well and attacked the line hard making space for others.
Fitzgerald-6
Played excellently in some passages and awfully in others. Kicking is not his forte but the break with Heaslip was very classy. Good under highball too
Darcy-6.5
Not good with ball in hand, made very few yards and rarely looked like breaking the line but his breakdown work was fantastic.
McFadden-5
Doesn't look like a 13 to me. Poor in attack save for a few support lines but did defend well. Didn't get much ball really.
Nacewa-7
Played well and looked alert. Could have scored if Kearney had looked up. Dangerous but want him at 15.
Kearney-5
Solid and did make a good break off the outside switch but became too blinkered. Should have left Cuthbert to McFadden and taken Banahan for the try.

O’Brien backed himself to score the try, I would have expected him to do it from 5m myself. He messed up, we still won. No need to throw the baby out with the bath-water (see what I done there?). apart from that he had a good game I thought, and a quick scan of the stats would support that

94m gained!!
5 turnovers affected
3 defenders beaten
2 clean breaks

That’s a good day at the office.

McLaughlin had a brilliant game to my surprise - he was top tackler at half time if not full time and it was an incredibly physical match. Best performance I've seen from him yet probably.

We could really do with sending one of the Leinster back rows to Ulster

Artful_Dodger wrote:
We could really do with sending one of the Leinster back rows to Ulster

Yeah they might learn a few things of Ferris!

Artful_Dodger wrote:McLaughlin had a brilliant game to my surprise - he was top tackler at half time if not full time and it was an incredibly physical match. Best performance I've seen from him yet probably.

We could really do with sending one of the Leinster back rows to Ulster

He was good but not in attack, he seems quite limited. He isn't a great carrier and he isn't the quickest, not a great support runner or link man. He is good in defence and the lineout but doesn't offer much else IMO.

Munster may want him also.

Artful_Dodger wrote:McLaughlin had a brilliant game to my surprise - he was top tackler at half time if not full time and it was an incredibly physical match. Best performance I've seen from him yet probably.

We could really do with sending one of the Leinster back rows to Ulster

McFadden made 3 more tackles over the course of the game. A good defensive display.

Did anyone notice how our midfield looked much better with McFadden at 12 and O'Malley at 13?

Mickado wrote:O’Brien backed himself to score the try, I would have expected him to do it from 5m myself. He messed up, we still won. No need to throw the baby out with the bath-water (see what I done there?). apart from that he had a good game I thought, and a quick scan of the stats would support that

94m gained!!
5 turnovers affected
3 defenders beaten
2 clean breaks

That’s a good day at the office.

Completely agree.
One mistake, albeit a very bad one, but he played really well IMO. Did he make any errors other than that one and dropping the pass that Kearney gave him instead of Ncaewa?

Think you are bit harsh with those scores Pete. I thought Boss played well and Ross was excellent. Cullen played very well and McFadden was probably worth a 7.

One worrying thing for Leinster and Ireland is how much ground that Leinster midfield lose in defence against big men like Banahan. D'arcy, McFadden and co have to back pedal a lot and the tackles come in from the side rather than meeting the tacklers head on. D'arcy and McFadden were tenacious but just aren't big enough.

Thats what happened Ireland in the RWC QF and it means you are always in the back foot and if the attacking team can keep recycling then its only a matter of time before they score.

Pete,

Ross never runs anywhere, ever! But you put the TH in the side so your scrum, which is critical in the HCup, is solid. Considering how we struggled in the past at scrum time trying to throw the ball from the scrumhalf directly out past the no.8 to end the scrum as quickly as possible, the guy for me could walk off the field and sit in the stand until a knockon/lineout.
But you are right, Ross has one pace and that is it whether he is on his own or with 5 people on his back, he goes at the exact same speed.
So long as Ross guards one side of the breakdown he is doing his job in the loose for me.

I'd also have Kearney up 1.5 points to 6.5 for the game. Granted he butchered one opportunity but he was still solid for most of the game. Are you setting up your assessments to have Carr to get better points on the wing (>5) than Kearney at fullback to justify moving Nacewa to 15?

I agree with your other ratings, especially VDM.

I thought that your centres were immense in defence. We had two big boys in there and they bought you enough time for your unbelievable back row to make turnovers. You got most success turning us over in the 12/13 channel and some of it was actually legal rucking!

Mickado wrote:

Did anyone notice how our midfield looked much better with McFadden at 12 and O'Malley at 13?

Yep McFadden saw more ball then than he did in the rest of the game. Could be because the bench was used and Leinster were on the front foot though but definitely worth looking at again

Bathite wrote:I thought that your centres were immense in defence. We had two big boys in there and they bought you enough time for your unbelievable back row to make turnovers. You got most success turning us over in the 12/13 channel and some of it was actually legal rucking!

Yes but without those turn overs then you are in trouble.

One thing that is obvious is that D'arcy and McFadden are good side on tacklers but not as strong head on and both struggle against big men. BOD who is a similar size by contrast is very powerful head on tackler and can shoot out of defence and stop attacks on the gainline.

Mickado wrote:O’Brien backed himself to score the try, I would have expected him to do it from 5m myself. He messed up, we still won. No need to throw the baby out with the bath-water (see what I done there?). apart from that he had a good game I thought, and a quick scan of the stats would support that

94m gained!!
5 turnovers affected
3 defenders beaten
2 clean breaks

That’s a good day at the office.

That is the stat that stood out for me the most. That is incredible for someone people don't think is an openside. In fact I think if SOB, as roddersm says, works on keeping his head up and wits about him rather than constantly trying to bulldoze the opposition, he will be a much better and more all around player. If anything I think he is wasted as a constant bash merchant.. he is a very well rounded player, but he just needs to show it more.

roddersm wrote:

Bathite wrote:I thought that your centres were immense in defence. We had two big boys in there and they bought you enough time for your unbelievable back row to make turnovers. You got most success turning us over in the 12/13 channel and some of it was actually legal rucking!

Yes but without those turn overs then you are in trouble.

One thing that is obvious is that D'arcy and McFadden are good side on tacklers but not as strong head on and both struggle against big men. BOD who is a similar size by contrast is very powerful head on tackler and can shoot out of defence and stop attacks on the gainline.

This is interesting as many people have applauded McFadden for his defence, and for being able to front up defenders. BOD can do it, yet he is smaller than the both of those guys. Just shows it isn't size that is needed, but technique. Sure look at ickle Shane preventing Banahan 1-on-1 from scoring from the 5 metre line!

I'm not a hige fan of Schmidts "away" team but I can see why he does it,next week we'll have about 6 or 7 fresh players on the pitch so we should be able to up the pace of the game another notch.Can any Bath fans say if they are likely to make changes or will it be the same again barring injuries?

I though Fitzgerald played well but messed up the break when he cut inside,if he went wide he could either beat his man or pass inside to Heaslip who would have had a mountain of space to pick a line where his man would only have a soft shoulder tackle to hit him with.

Sexton was excellent,his defence was immense not only in making tackles but his speed of getting up to make the hit behind the gain line.Some great vision in attack and only one poor pass off his left from creating a wonder try.I have to say he covered some ground to be in the position to throw that pass,middle of his own 22 he throws the pass and collects from Heaslip on the wing on the opposite 22.Serious pace to catch up with Fitz and Heaslip and a good brain to find the position where there was space.

'cause I'm the statman, oh I'm the statman yeah

If you drive a maul, I'll stat the scores,
If you try to ruck, I'll stat the balls,
If you get too old I'll stat the cause,
If you score a try, I'll stat your strike rate per game when taken as a correlation of yardage to see how effectively you cross the gain line not only in terms of distance but conversion of try scoring opportunities.

I'm not having a pop at you lads but modern coaching methods, you understand

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Bathite wrote:I thought that your centres were immense in defence. We had two big boys in there and they bought you enough time for your unbelievable back row to make turnovers. You got most success turning us over in the 12/13 channel and some of it was actually legal rucking!

Yes but without those turn overs then you are in trouble.

One thing that is obvious is that D'arcy and McFadden are good side on tacklers but not as strong head on and both struggle against big men. BOD who is a similar size by contrast is very powerful head on tackler and can shoot out of defence and stop attacks on the gainline.

This is interesting as many people have applauded McFadden for his defence, and for being able to front up defenders. BOD can do it, yet he is smaller than the both of those guys. Just shows it isn't size that is needed, but technique. Sure look at ickle Shane preventing Banahan 1-on-1 from scoring from the 5 metre line!

I think its technique and timing Pete. BOD is one of the best tacklers in the game and can really drive people backwards, remember the hits on POC and Roberts.

McFadden and D'arcy rarely miss tackles but occaisionally they get caught of balanced and get bounced. They also tend to lose a lot of ground in the tackle, which is the point I was making. BOD and Fitzgerald are very strong head on tackling but there is defintely a weakness there in D'arcy and McFadden.

I gave my opinion based on what I observed, I supported it with some stats, nout wrong there.

Now if I based my opinion on the stats then I’d be arseways. For example, asoreleftshoulder makes a good point about Sexton’s pace to catch up with Heaslip and Fitzgerald, and I totally agree with him, but since his running was off the ball it won’t be shown in the stats (well not the ones most of us have access to).

Mixed me up again have you, Rodders?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Mixed me up again have you, Rodders?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Pete,

Ross never runs anywhere, ever! But you put the TH in the side so your scrum, which is critical in the HCup, is solid. Considering how we struggled in the past at scrum time trying to throw the ball from the scrumhalf directly out past the no.8 to end the scrum as quickly as possible, the guy for me could walk off the field and sit in the stand until a knockon/lineout.
But you are right, Ross has one pace and that is it whether he is on his own or with 5 people on his back, he goes at the exact same speed.
So long as Ross guards one side of the breakdown he is doing his job in the loose for me.

I'd also have Kearney up 1.5 points to 6.5 for the game. Granted he butchered one opportunity but he was still solid for most of the game. Are you setting up your assessments to have Carr to get better points on the wing (>5) than Kearney at fullback to justify moving Nacewa to 15?

I agree with your other ratings, especially VDM.

On Ross: it annoys me how slow he is I have to say. He does a great job in literally saving our scrum from being a disaster and turning it into a weapon but in the Montpellier and Glasgow games he was caught out by players being able to run around him too easily and creating overlaps against us. i don't mind that he isn't making bulldozing runs (even though he was considerably better at that last year and made a few and some offloads also) but he needs to be able to hold his own in the line or else off lineouts they will cut back towards our pack and target him.

I just don't think Kearney was great, not bad but not great, one might say average, hence the completely middle of the road mark I gave him. Haven't watched the game back yet however.

Yes I would prefer a back 3 of Carr-Nacewa-Fitzgerald.

I think McFadden is a 12 who can play 13 and wing. He doesn't get the ball enough at 13 and is too far away from support to just truck it up the middle. O'Malley at 13 and one of Darcy and McFadden at 12 please.

Ross also got dragged out by ROG in the Munster game most recently.

Yeah Sexton was excellent in attack and defence. His tackling is better than any other flyhalf in Europe that I know of. And he was behind some brilliant counter attacks from Leinster too. He's got the vision and the pace to cause all sorts of trouble. He was easily man of the match.

Without Sexton we would have lost this match, and we would have lost away maych to Montpellier too. Our form isn't close to last years pool form. But I suppose Toulouse don't usually get close to their best in the pool stage either. We seem on course for a quarter final so I can't complain.

I thought Kearney was excellent Pete. His attacking play seems to be improving all the time. I can't believe he didn't pass to Nacewa though when he made that break!

Anyone else impressed with Toner when he came on?

roddersm wrote:I thought Kearney was excellent Pete. His attacking play seems to be improving all the time. I can't believe he didn't pass to Nacewa though when he made that break!

Anyone else impressed with Toner when he came on?

Yes, he's massively improved this year.

roddersm wrote:I thought Kearney was excellent Pete. His attacking play seems to be improving all the time. I can't believe he didn't pass to Nacewa though when he made that break!

Anyone else impressed with Toner when he came on?

Completely agree, his attacking play has come on hugely, the break he made for that huge chance was something I haven't seen from Kearney before (starting wide, coming back against the grain behind the centres for the switch and then breaking outside again) and the game against Montpellier he was very dangerous too I thought. i just don't think he had anything more than an average game really. The break was kinda cancelled out by the poor passing option he took.

Yeah I was impressed with Toner. He carried well and at one point got his body position wrong (caught the ball behind him) and hit contact and then offloaded. Would never have seen him do that last year!!!!!

Kevin McLaughlin was the best Leinster player on the day I though.

Delighted to hear that Toner is doing well. We were worried about our second rows not so long ago, but now we have Tuohy, Ryan and Toner looking to take the reins over the next few years.

Toner seem to be physically stronger. He used to often get driven backwards in contact but that doesn't seem to be the case as much these days. He carried well, was very good in the lineout (obviously) and his hands seem to have improved too.

He's not there yet but there has been a noticable improvement in his all round play this year.

Bathite wrote:"Fair enough but I wouldnt swap him for any other OH in the world bar maybe Carter"

Unfortunately, its comments like that, that hype him up so much, so every time I watch him I am disappointed.

I guess you must have missed the heineken cup final. Not since Diego Dominguez scored over 30 points for Stade in the final has an outhalf been so outstanding in a Heineken cup match never mind a final. I guess some people are hard to please or you have made up your mind you dont like him.

roddersm wrote:Toner seem to be physically stronger. He used to often get driven backwards in contact but that doesn't seem to be the case as much these days. He carried well, was very good in the lineout (obviously) and his hands seem to have improved too.

He's not there yet but there has been a noticable improvement in his all round play this year.

Not sure why, but this had me laughing