Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

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USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

He is 8 ft tall Rory!

And there it is! Right on cue, as always HC final mention.

I think he is good, but so much hype its unreal. I always hear so much that he is so brilliant and that means that most of the time when I see him play, I am let down. Thats down to you guys, not him though!

Why do you think McLaughlin was the best Leinster player????

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why do you think McLaughlin was the best Leinster player????

Work rate maybe. He put in a lot of big tackles, seemed to be everywhere. Didn't really do anything wrong.

leinsterbaby wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why do you think McLaughlin was the best Leinster player????

Work rate maybe. He put in a lot of big tackles, seemed to be everywhere. Didn't really do anything wrong.

He let the ball bounce in front of him when Sexton's pass went over Isaac Boss. He was good though.

Bathite wrote:And there it is! Right on cue, as always HC final mention.

I think he is good, but so much hype its unreal. I always hear so much that he is so brilliant and that means that most of the time when I see him play, I am let down. Thats down to you guys, not him though!

Why wouldn't I mention the heineken cup final because it's more convenient for you if I don't? MOTM, two tries, 28 points. Like I said it's been a long time since anyone has been that good in a euro final. He was hyped up a lot prior to that were you disappointed with him that day or is it easier for your forget about it.

He may not have had his best game v Bath but I honestly cannot think of an other OH in Europe or anywhere who is consistently better (bar Carter). Judging him against rivals seems the logical thing to do but that doesn't mean he's perfect just probably good enough to be first choice 10 for the reigning European champions for some years to come. If that means he is overhyped to you so be it but as long as he keeps winning games for Leinster who cares.

ROG

Bathite wrote:And there it is! Right on cue, as always HC final mention.

I think he is good, but so much hype its unreal. I always hear so much that he is so brilliant and that means that most of the time when I see him play, I am let down. Thats down to you guys, not him though!

We do get protective of our own alright. Fortunately we are in a decent position at outhalf now. Sexton effectively came to the fore for the Munster game in HC at Croker back in 2009? Since then he has performed at a consistent level of play, leading a team to the latter stages of a good few competitions along the way. I struggle to remember a game when he is completely outshone by his opposite number.

He also stands up and plays some of his best stuff in the big games for Leinster. There are plenty of flat track bullies out there that go missing when the pressure comes on in the big situations. He has put himself forward and delivered in finals/semi-finals.

While he benefits from being in a very settled side with a strong pack giving go forward ball (never to be underestimated), he does make his kicks, he does score tries, his passing creates tries, he vision (counter attack ball, going quick from penalties) and alertness gives Leinster the chance to capitalise on opponents switching off after the whistle. For some reason he is also targetted a lot by opposition but his defence is solid, good tackling and he isn't the 'revolving door' that a lot of the 'creative' outhalfs tend to be.

Is he the best in the world? In my view, no (not at this time but has the potential to be).
Is he the best in Europe? Possibly, he puts a good argument forward in his favour against ROG-Flood-Evans-McAllister-Priestland-Farrell-B James-Skrela. I'd definitely have him near the top of the list.

You have to admit, if you have an outhalf that controls/manages the backline, kicks 6 of 7, makes the second most number of tackles for your side (only falling off of one) and helps you pick up an away victory in the HCup, outshining a RWC winner/marquee SH signing in the process, he is playing well.

As a Leinsterman I will get carried away with the fella, like everyone does when their team has a player of that calibre. I do get annoyed that he (and SOB) have been claimed by the sky sports punditry though as talent identified by them that everyone else would have missed otherwise.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Is he the best in the world? In my view, no (not at this time but has the potential to be).
Is he the best in Europe? Possibly, he puts a good argument forward in his favour against ROG-Flood-Evans-McAllister-Priestland-Farrell-B James-Skrela. I'd definitely have him near the top of the list.

Just want to say Skrela is an awful player.

bandwagon, can't disagree with that, well written, fair and objective. I'd have him up there with ROG, TrinhDuc, McAllister and Evans at the top right now.

ROG was excellent Saturday. The Scarlets failed to deal with him at all. He was the difference between the sides with intelligent fly half play, even if Lamont floored him a couple of times. Fair dos though he bounced back for more every time.

Golden wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Is he the best in the world? In my view, no (not at this time but has the potential to be).
Is he the best in Europe? Possibly, he puts a good argument forward in his favour against ROG-Flood-Evans-McAllister-Priestland-Farrell-B James-Skrela. I'd definitely have him near the top of the list.

Just want to say Skraela is an awful player.

I can see your point Golden. I was throwing together a list of outhalfs for the stronger HC sides. Clermont are always touted for success and it would be between B James and Skrela, one who is a great player but doesn't have the nerve in crucial moments and the other who is at best reliable. The others that I have gone for are all in form teams Munster-Tigers-Quins-Toulouse-Scarlets-Saracens. There will be others out there that I haven't included but just wanted to build up a list of probable competition in the HCup for comparison.

Bathite wrote:bandwagon, can't disagree with that, well written, fair and objective. I'd have him up there with ROG, TrinhDuc, McAllister and Evans at the top right now.

It is interesting that the French sides have some quality outhalfs (though for McA and Evans, they are imports) when historically the scrumhalf is the general and outhalf tends to be more of a role position than a leadership position.

Does any English outhalf make your list?

Oh ye i know completely agree just thought Id point that out. During the Leicester game yesterday the commentator said Clermont have two world class out halves. They dont have one. James is good but thats it

By the way - what the hell has happened to Ryan Caldwell at Bath - he's better than he ever was for Ulster and hes only there a few months.

Bath seem able to utilize his carrying brilliantly whilst controlling his discipline, which Ulster could never manage.

Read an article in the Irish times I think about Caldwell and apparantly he's really matured now he's in Bath...drinks green tea and all sorts Was he a bit of a hell raiser in Belfast?

Anyways yeah he did ok. He's always had loads of potential but he still gave away a few penalties I think.

Maybe we should be sending all our young potential players to Bath :P

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Maybe we should be sending all our young potential players to Bath :P

Fine by me, got any props?

Yes actually, McAllister and Macklin! Take them, before they are ruined here

On a side note what do people think of Cullen as captain? In the last few games I've noticed he seems a bit petulant when talking to the ref about Leinster penalties. Not saying he should be replaced or anything i think he's a good leader but he reminded me a bit of POC with Romain Poite. Area to work on?

Bathite wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Maybe we should be sending all our young potential players to Bath :P

Fine by me, got any props?

Props? In Ireland? There are less top class props in Ireland than solvent banks.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Bathite wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Maybe we should be sending all our young potential players to Bath :P

Fine by me, got any props?

Props? In Ireland? There are less top class props in Ireland than solvent banks.

Golden I think Cullen is an outstanding captain. Considering BOD is out he's really stepped up to the plate. A massively underrated player.

He and Jennings really took control in that second half. Brilliant players.

No i agree think he's really good. Its just he seems to protest their innocence too much to the ref after the decisions been made.

Sexton would be up near the top of that list IMO too band. He definitely is one of the best rounded outhalves in the NH. He doesn't have a percieved weakness the way ROG does with tackling or James with place kicking

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sexton would be up near the top of that list IMO too band. He definitely is one of the best rounded outhalves in the NH. He doesn't have a percieved weakness the way ROG does with tackling or James with place kicking

I thought Sextons was that he wasn't from Cork?

Haha nice try Golden!!!!

He can be inconsitent with goal kicking.

Bathite wrote:ROG

OGara is great at converting pressure kicks and DGs in big games to win but if you judge him over 80 minutes he is often average enough as in the game v Saints or v Wales in '09 grand slam decider. When OGara was Sextons age he had not won any Hcup medals so to be honest while he is going through a bit of a purple patch Id still rather have Sexton in my team.

Ye he does but it only seems to be a problem when he's playing for Ireland. For Leinster he's grand. Its ROG giving him the evil eye from the stand.

We’re talking about Sexton here lads, we don’t have to include ROG in the discussion.

This is not the Irish Independent here!

Golden wrote:Ye he does but it only seems to be a problem when he's playing for Ireland. For Leinster he's grand. Its ROG giving him the evil eye from the stand.

Not the step up in intensity then.

Reckon a Heiniken Cup Final is about as intense as it gets.

He lost his kicking boots at the World Cup on the biggest stage and was dropped. So it's fair enough that some people has doubts about him. But he's clearly got mental toughness. I believe he'll come back from that. I think his duel with O'Gara has come to an end actually. I think from now on the two players roles for Ireland will be more clearly defined, with Sexton as number 1 and ROG as super sub, until Keatley replaces him.

For Leinster Sextons kicking is consistent. We'll see if he translates that to test rugby. I personally think he will. And he'll be the best flyhalf in Europe for the next few years. His all round game makes him the European flyhalf that most closely resembles Carter. Carter is head and shoulders above all the rest though, obviously.

I don't think Sexton will ever be quite as reliable as O'Gara with the boot. But almost nobody is.

Mickado wrote:We’re talking about Sexton here lads, we don’t have to include ROG in the discussion.

This is not the Irish Independent here!

Fair enough but when talking about Sexton it's difficult not to compare him to other top players in Europe and OGara fits that bill.

I was only joking LB, we’re comparing him to other OH’s so it’s natural that O’Gara will come up. The Indo do seem to mention ROG in pretty much every article about him, if it’s relevant or not.

Gerry Thornley is worse. He can't write an article on Leinster without browning Munster.

I think if you put Sexton in any team he'd be able to adapt his game to suit that team be it a solid pack with unimmaginitve backs or a small pack who rely on mobility and cutting edge outwide.

I think that is his main strength to be honest. And is something very few of the other OH's on the list are able to do.

People say ROG comes on and changes the game, but I imagine Sexton could do that himself at times.

For instance in Montpellier we played territory and tight rugby until we needed to open the game up and expand it.

Like, would ROG play as well for Leinster as he does for Munster??
I think we would be a much worse team if we had ROG at 10 rather than Sexton.

Apologies if this seems like ROG bashing, it isn't intended

I think ROG and Sexton are both big characters who like to be at the centre of things on and off the pitch.

Unfortunately having both in the same squad often has a negative effect on Sexton, which isn't surprising as ROG is the older and more established player. At Leinster Sexton is a leader and I don't think ROG's presence helps him much for Ireland, especially when its clear Kidney doesn't have full confidence in him.

I'm not sure what the solution is as both are the best fly halves in the country by a distance but its hard to see Sexton establishing himself for Ireland and consistantly performing the way he does for Leinster as long as ROG is around.

Golden wrote:On a side note what do people think of Cullen as captain? In the last few games I've noticed he seems a bit petulant when talking to the ref about Leinster penalties. Not saying he should be replaced or anything i think he's a good leader but he reminded me a bit of POC with Romain Poite. Area to work on?

Definitely something to work on. Immediately. Once you are publicly criticised by pundits and commentators as a bit of a whinger it is nigh-on impossible to make it back. It is a tightrope you have to walk on carefully and at the minute Cullen is on the verge of falling off.

Just got back from a long weekend in Bath and despite the loss I have returned a little more optimistic for Bath's chances in Europe this year, I reckon they can definitely make the Amlin now...

The difference between the two sides was essentially Sean O'Brien, his work on the ground was exceptional, more than a little bit naughty, but that's down to the ref to sort out and if he was doing that playing for Bath I'd be very happy so I can't complain.

Bath met Leinster with an intensity level I've not seen for some time (hence the poor results) and to say Leinster were poor would be harsh on the work Bath did to keep them quiet.

O'Brien did butcher an obvious try, but rather than him being blinkered to the overlap, I'd rather give him a bit more credit by suggesting that when he saw that the only player between him and the whitewash was Donald - he backed himself to run through him.

I can't say I'd blame him for that.

Leinster had more clean breaks than Bath, but for 60 minutes of the game I would say Bath were in the better position on the field, the fact that O'Brien didn't concede penalties where Bath did is where the difference in points came from.

On the whole the result was about right, and I'd expect the same at the Aviva with a 10-12 point margin for Leinster.

Bath's scrum was much better although not quite strong enough to give Leinster any trouble, and their lineout was more stable than recently probably due to the experience of Biller, it still needs work though.

The Leinster fans were a credit to their club and country and should make the last four in the competition, and anything can happen from there.

Well played Leinster and good luck.

I'm not sure what the solution is as both are the best fly halves in the country by a distance but its hard to see Sexton establishing himself for Ireland and consistantly performing the way he does for Leinster as long as ROG is around.

I'm a big sexton fan, but O'Gara just being around, is not a valid excuse for Sexton's off days with the boot for Ireland. Kidney could have made Sexton his 1st choice general, filled him full of self belief and ordered O'Gara to support him and help him. He didn't. He set them up against each other.

Kidney never made a definitive decision between the two and put more pressure on Sexton than was necessary, in what is a very high pressure position. Poor man management. In the end, Sexton missed to many kicks and we got what I always suspected would happen. Kidney going for O'Gara for the knock out stage and Ireland getting knocked out. Sexton is a better all round flyhalf, but O'Gara is a very effective impact sub. Kidney messed up and got it the wrong way round.

I don't blame O'Gara or Sexton, but Kidney.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

I'm not sure what the solution is as both are the best fly halves in the country by a distance but its hard to see Sexton establishing himself for Ireland and consistantly performing the way he does for Leinster as long as ROG is around.

I'm a big sexton fan, but O'Gara just being around, is not a valid excuse for Sexton's off days with the boot for Ireland. Kidney could have made Sexton his 1st choice general, filled him full of self belief and ordered O'Gara to support him and help him. He didn't. He set them up against each other.

Kidney never made a definitive decision between the two and put more pressure on Sexton than was necessary, in what is a very high pressure position. Poor man management. In the end, Sexton missed to many kicks and we got what I always suspected would happen. Kidney going for O'Gara for the knock out stage and Ireland getting knocked out. Sexton is a better all round flyhalf, but O'Gara is a very effective impact sub. Kidney messed up and got it the wrong way round.

I don't blame O'Gara or Sexton, but Kidney.

+1
Really agree with this. Good shout.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
I don't blame O'Gara or Sexton, but Kidney.

I'm not blaming anyone just making an observation. I mean should Kidney drop ROG because his presence has a potentially negative effect on one of his most pivotal players (Sexton)?

Arguably yes he should because its important to get the right dynamics within the squad and have a cohesive team.

But then how many times has ROG pulled it out of the bag for Ireland?

ROG understandably has a lot of influence with Kidney and I don't think Kidney has man managed Sexton very well. Thats just my personal opinion on the matter though.

I dont buy this Sexton playing worse because ROG is still there. Its sextons job to deal with that. If ROG wasn't there yes Sexton would have started in the quarter final but there's a reason ROG started and its cause Sexton wasn't kicking well.

If your not playing well then there should be someone there to take your place you cant blame kidney Rog for that.

"If your not playing well then there should be someone there to take your place you cant blame kidney Rog for that."

Well you can blame Kidney as it was a poor plan in the end, that was very easy to defend against.

Also for his kicking prowess we turned down too many kicks at goal.

Ah well neither here nor there at this stage.

Golden wrote:I dont buy this Sexton playing worse because ROG is still there. Its sextons job to deal with that. If ROG wasn't there yes Sexton would have started in the quarter final but there's a reason ROG started and its cause Sexton wasn't kicking well.

If your not playing well then there should be someone there to take your place you cant blame kidney Rog for that.

If Sexton can guide us to beating Australia, and he did, without playing well then thats good enough for me. I'd certainly have said it was sufficient for retaining his place.

I dunno if I agree with the general sentiment that it's Kidneys fault Sexton lost it at the world cup.

I think that Kidney definitely should have decided who his number one fly half was by, at the very latest, the start of the world cup. Now I'm going to throw a spanner in your theories and say that Kidney had decided. Who started the match that we had been building towards for four years? Was it Sexton or ROG who started against Australia.

ROG started against Wales because Sexton's kicking was shockingly bad and missed penalties and conversions weren't acceptable at that stage of the world cup. At the time the decision was made to start ROG against Wales the vast majority of 606 posters favoured it.

It's easy in hindsight to say we lost because ROG and our centres were too lightweight, and didn't perform when it mattered in the quarter final, but Sexton didn't allow Kidney to make any other decision IMO.

You can say Kidney didn't man manage Sexton as best as he possibly could have (by starting him consistently ahead of ROG) but would you not say the same if Sexton had got injured and we had to rely on ROG without gametime? At the end of the day Sexton is 25 or so. He's not a baby and shouldn't need to be treated like a kid. Competition in a squad should be a good thing and a man who has two heineken cup medals should be able to deal with pressure from ROG without falling to pieces. He didn't for whatever reason but I think it's extremely harsh to blame Kidney for Sextons failings.

In saying that, Sexton absolutely has to start EVERY game from now on as long as he's fit. I'm happy for ROG to continue being Mr. Supersub but that's it unless Sexton completely loses it or gets himself injured.

Exactly, neither here nor there.

So lads, I take it we all expect the “home side” to show up on Saturday then?

Healy in for VDM
Toner in for Browne
Jennings in for McLaughlin
Reddan in for Boss
O’Malley for McFadden

?

I’d say Joe will be tearing strips off them in the video analysis sessions this week. To think that if 3 passes were made/made better we could have won the game by 21 points (not including at least certain conversions).

mrsuperclear wrote:
It's easy in hindsight to say we lost because ROG and our centres were too lightweight, and didn't perform when it mattered in the quarter final, but Sexton didn't allow Kidney to make any other decision IMO.

Except a lot of us were saying a week before the game that we would struggle because our centres were too lightweight and ROG would struggle.

I don't believe that Sexton didn't give Kidney any other option. He was playing far better than people were making out and ROG wasn't playing anywhere near as well.

Its water under the bridge but I believed it was a mistake to drop Sexton at the time and I still do. I believe we'd have reached the final if we'd have stuck with Sexton. We were building momentum and Kidney had to hold his nerve but blew it under pressure from ROG post the Australia game.

mrsuperclear wrote:I dunno if I agree with the general sentiment that it's Kidneys fault Sexton lost it at the world cup.

I think that Kidney definitely should have decided who his number one fly half was by, at the very latest, the start of the world cup. Now I'm going to throw a spanner in your theories and say that Kidney had decided. Who started the match that we had been building towards for four years? Was it Sexton or ROG who started against Australia.

ROG started against Wales because Sexton's kicking was shockingly bad and missed penalties and conversions weren't acceptable at that stage of the world cup. At the time the decision was made to start ROG against Wales the vast majority of 606 posters favoured it.

It's easy in hindsight to say we lost because ROG and our centres were too lightweight, and didn't perform when it mattered in the quarter final, but Sexton didn't allow Kidney to make any other decision IMO.

You can say Kidney didn't man manage Sexton as best as he possibly could have (by starting him consistently ahead of ROG) but would you not say the same if Sexton had got injured and we had to rely on ROG without gametime? At the end of the day Sexton is 25 or so. He's not a baby and shouldn't need to be treated like a kid. Competition in a squad should be a good thing and a man who has two heineken cup medals should be able to deal with pressure from ROG without falling to pieces. He didn't for whatever reason but I think it's extremely harsh to blame Kidney for Sextons failings.

In saying that, Sexton absolutely has to start EVERY game from now on as long as he's fit. I'm happy for ROG to continue being Mr. Supersub but that's it unless Sexton completely loses it or gets himself injured.

Exactly.


Yep Id say thats the team that will take the field. Might give Cronin a start as well although i was disappointed with his throwing he did get around the pitch a lot