Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

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USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

Toner was so poor in the past that I'm still reserving judgement on him. Has definitely improved though. Not sure if I'd be giving him international caps just yet.

Reward form, if is still playing like that come the 6 nations then give him caps - push him along.

6 nations is too soon for Toner for me. We are well sorted with POC, Ryan, DOC and Cullen at the moment. If Toner is still going well would like to see him get a chance in the summer though. Plenty of chances with the mid week games to give him a look in

Yeh no were near time to give Toner caps - see if he can perform at this level consistently for Leinster first.

toner is something different and with paulie alongside him he could be serious weapon. i can see him coming off the bench in 6 nations. line outs are so key and he can spoil opposition line outs to and outside paulie our locks offer the same style

Im not arguing that Toner deserves caps in the 6 nations now but in principle any player who has had a good season coming into the 6 nations deserved to be considered.
Not so sure Ryan, Cullen or DOC would make any of the other home nations teams, why not look at somebody new and playing well.

Thomond wrote:Gaffney has to go I think Sin would agree with that. I think he is saying Leinster's brilliance is equaled with Bath's woefulness so you don't get a full picture of how good they are. Scoring 50 points in 2 pro rugby matches in a few weeks of eachother is pretty amazing though, I don't rememeber seeing that in the NH for a while.

I'm glad Gaffney has moved on, but on Leinster's performance tonight, I think you have to bear in mind that either Leinster or Bath only perform at home.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Reward form, if is still playing like that come the 6 nations then give him caps - push him along.

If you just reward form, Luke Fitzgerald would be forgotten about now. Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Ryan, Cullen and DOC are as good as anything the other home nations can put out right now. POC is the only stand out lock in the home nations and would start for any side in the world now with Matfield retired. Toner has come on alot this year but needs to prove it over the full season at club level like the others have before he should be in consideration for me

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:Gaffney has to go I think Sin would agree with that. I think he is saying Leinster's brilliance is equaled with Bath's woefulness so you don't get a full picture of how good they are. Scoring 50 points in 2 pro rugby matches in a few weeks of eachother is pretty amazing though, I don't rememeber seeing that in the NH for a while.

I'm glad Gaffney has moved on, but on Leinster's performance tonight, I think you have to bear in mind that either Leinster or Bath only perform at home.

Are you talking about the two times H Cup champions there Sin E or.....................

Sin é wrote:

Feagh McHugh wrote:Reward form, if is still playing like that come the 6 nations then give him caps - push him along.

If you just reward form, Luke Fitzgerald would be forgotten about now. Form is temporary, class is permanent.

His form was rewarded during the summer, i.e. left at home.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Im not arguing that Toner deserves caps in the 6 nations now but in principle any player who has had a good season coming into the 6 nations deserved to be considered.
Not so sure Ryan, Cullen or DOC would make any of the other home nations teams, why not look at somebody new and playing well.

All three would make most teams because of their experience/leadership qualities (i.e., they know how to play to the last second+). Not many teams around have that experience.

Feagh McHugh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Feagh McHugh wrote:Reward form, if is still playing like that come the 6 nations then give him caps - push him along.

If you just reward form, Luke Fitzgerald would be forgotten about now. Form is temporary, class is permanent.

His form was rewarded during the summer, i.e. left at home.

He was given every chance during the 6Ns last season and the warmup games for the world cup to see if he would come good. He didn't make it just then, but he looks like he is back to his old self now. The world cup was just a 4/5 week tournament that his form didn't make. And even though his form was poor, Schmidt still preferred him in Leinster to everyone else.

Feagh McHugh wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:Gaffney has to go I think Sin would agree with that. I think he is saying Leinster's brilliance is equaled with Bath's woefulness so you don't get a full picture of how good they are. Scoring 50 points in 2 pro rugby matches in a few weeks of eachother is pretty amazing though, I don't rememeber seeing that in the NH for a while.

I'm glad Gaffney has moved on, but on Leinster's performance tonight, I think you have to bear in mind that either Leinster or Bath only perform at home.

Are you talking about the two times H Cup champions there Sin E or.....................

No, I'm talking about their performance last week away against Bath and vice versa for Bath who played well last week and were terrible this week away from home.

Awesome performance from Leinster, totally blew bath away. It looks like they have a great chance of retaining their title which would be an amazing achievement.

They won't be happy with some of those tries they conceded though, O'Malley in particular was exposed in defence.

Fitzgerald was sublime at times.....justifying all the times I stood up for him on here, even against some Leinster fans...

Sin me old mucker..credit were credit is due...even you can admit Sexon was brilliant tonight???

Havent really been impressed with Cullen this season wouldn't mind toner taking his place in the Irish squad. Not like he got played often anyway. The way is see it is POC, DOC and Ryan will be the first team locks and Toner and Tuohy fighting it out for the next place.

Toner was really impressive at times....he is really knocking at the international door, in truth he is outperforming Ryan and Touhy right now.

Cullen is quality though, I've been really impressed with his leadership, he's a massively underrated player.

A big thanks to Leinster for getting me a little hammered , doing shots for every try , Bath finished me off

Well for Leinster i think his leadership is hugely important but for Ireland with either POC or DOC there I think other players could have a bigger impact.

Who got Man of the Match

Sexton. Think i would of given it to Kearney just for a change

Section , I would have gone though kearney and Fitzgerald were both contenders

I thought Sexton was brilliant again. He's been standout in every match for Leinster and is one of the best players of the tournament so far.

Yet to watch the highlights of the Leinster match on the TG4 highlights, but after watching Ulster/Connacht, a Spence - Griffin partnership for Ireland in the future could be very handy indeed! I think Spence will definitely be a future Irish centre, with O'Malley, Griffin and Marshall also looking for a spot. Although I think Fitz may also look to become a centre, or possibly Earls if he performs well there for Munster.

Where do people think Fitz/Earls best position is? Great to hear about Fitzgerald's form also.

Leinster Highlights just about to start.

Sexton was outstanding yet again definitly the best 10 so far in the competition although to be fair it isnt the hardest group.

Both wingers for me Rory, Earls has done well in the past in the centre so wouldn't mind seeing that again and would have liked Fitzgerald to play 13 instead of 12 at the beginning of the season. But i wouldn't want him shifted now that hes playing well again.

munkian wrote:Section , I would have gone though kearney and Fitzgerald were both contenders

Funnily enough, Barnes (& Tony Ward), nearly always give the MOTM to the flyhalf of the winning team.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yet to watch the highlights of the Leinster match on the TG4 highlights, but after watching Ulster/Connacht, a Spence - Griffin partnership for Ireland in the future could be very handy indeed! I think Spence will definitely be a future Irish centre, with O'Malley, Griffin and Marshall also looking for a spot. Although I think Fitz may also look to become a centre, or possibly Earls if he performs well there for Munster.

Where do people think Fitz/Earls best position is? Great to hear about Fitzgerald's form also.

Earls & Luke are going to be the future Ireland centres. Its going to take a few years for any of the rest to catch up with these two.

Earls is not a natural centre at all he's a born winger. Thought Fitz was awesome today, likewise sexton. Kearney and toner were fantastic and have come on leaps and bounds.

Was disappointed with o malley he go exploite a few times and wasn't attacking the way he was earlier in the season

I certainly don't think they are both going to be the centres for Ireland Sin, for a few reasons:

1) Neither are actually playing centre atm.

2) Neither have good enough distribution yet, and only time will tell if they improve in that regard.

3) You say it will take a few years for the others to catch up, though IMO Spence is already at that level in centre. He also needs to work on his distribution, however, his physicality and direct running is better than either of Fitz or Earls. He will definitely feature at 12 or 13 in the future for Ireland if he continues to improve.

Just watched the highlights.

Reddan was also very good. Dunno how i missed it when it was live but Fitz could have had 3 he picked up a loose pass beat 2/3 defenders and sprinted the pitch but it was called back cos Bath had advantage. Its been a long time since he looked to beat his man and back himself.

The defence was bad for the Bath trys some very basic tackles missed. O' Malley springs to mind being bounced off banahan a few times and missing Donald for his try. There were 2 tackles missed for the last try as well.

O'Malley was disappointing actually. I think he has fallen down the pecking order. It looks like Earls is going to be the choice for the Irish 13 if he plays well tomorrow, although I think it should be Spence (who has been shifted to 12 due to Cave). Did anyone think Fitzgerald's often talked about lack of pace was/is an issue at wing? He certainly looked fast enough today!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Earls is not a natural centre at all he's a born winger. Thought Fitz was awesome today, likewise sexton. Kearney and toner were fantastic and have come on leaps and bounds.

Was disappointed with o malley he go exploite a few times and wasn't attacking the way he was earlier in the season

Earls is as good a finisher as Brian O'Driscoll was and BOD's defence wasn't too hot in his younger days either.

Your judging Earls on something like 5 games he has played at centre for Ireland. The vast majority of his games for Munster (something like 18/26) have been in the centre for Munster - and a lot of them were with a different partner every week! By the way, he only has about 2 appearances on the wing for Munster in the HCup - the rest were at fullback which I also think he is very good at. I like him in the centre/back becauase he gets his hands on the ball more.

Earls is not as good a finisher as BOD was.. don't be daft. You are basing that on something like 2 tries he has finished nicely for Ireland during the RWC.

Think Earls (completely dependent on the form he shows there for munster up to the 6 nations) and Cave are next in line. Spence may be the better 13 long term but i think cave is better atm and crucially is playing there every week. Spence isnt really suited to the more confined role at 12.

Theres plenty of time to the 6 nations as well so if O' Malley retains the 13 jersey for Leinster (cant see why he wouldn't) and ulster dont make the quarters then hed have the greater opportunity to impress.

Cave hasn't been as good these past number of games. I don't think he is as talented as Spence, but as you say he is the one with the shirt.

Finishing isnt/ never was earl's problem its creating the trys where he and everyone else will fall behind O' Driscoll.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I certainly don't think they are both going to be the centres for Ireland Sin, for a few reasons:

1) Neither are actually playing centre atm.

2) Neither have good enough distribution yet, and only time will tell if they improve in that regard.

3) You say it will take a few years for the others to catch up, though IMO Spence is already at that level in centre. He also needs to work on his distribution, however, his physicality and direct running is better than either of Fitz or Earls. He will definitely feature at 12 or 13 in the future for Ireland if he continues to improve.

I just can't see O'Malley, Spence or Cave rocking up to the 6ns and starting at 13 because a) their lack of experience b) having little or no time to get up to speed with this team, particularly in the centre. No doubt they will get to play Irelannd 'A' though, and might get into the matchday squad, but I think it will be on the summer tour that they will get a chance to break through.

Golden wrote:Finishing isnt/ never was earl's problem its creating the trys where he and everyone else will fall behind O' Driscoll.

There was Hendo making space for BOD in his early days. Look at who Earls has had beside him when playing centre for Ireland - Paddy Wallace and Fergus McFadden. My point was that just because you are a good finisher you should be confined to the wing.

I think earls doesn't have the defensive nous, the hands, or the decision making to play 13 well agains good teams. Earls looks great at 13 against weaker teams because he sees gaps really well and is excellent at executing breaks but agains better teams and with less space he becomes lost and sort of nullified

Well when you compare us with the likes of France and England with 12/14 teams to pick for we shouldn't really be using not having played with others as an excuse. O' Malley will likely be playing with the 10,12 and possibly 11 and 15 that he plays with every week so he should be grand.

Ye i know i was agreeing with you that he probably is as good a 'finisher' as BOD.

I don't think there is anything suggesting he is as good a finisher as BOD yet. He has to prove himself a great deal more.

Also sin, I wasn't suggesting they will be the centres this 6 nations, I don't see it either personally and think Earls will get the 13 shirt, whether he should or not.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Earls is not as good a finisher as BOD was.. don't be daft. You are basing that on something like 2 tries he has finished nicely for Ireland during the RWC.

No, I'm basing it on loads of tries he has finished for Munster up against tough opposition. His try in the Magners final was superb (beating BOD, Horgan & Nacewa).

Here are some of them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2o1T_ScJOk

I just don't think Earls has the brain to play in the center. He's an out and out finisher with terrific speed. He's our most dangerous winger so that's where I really want him to play. If your going to move a winger to center I'd prefer it to be Bowe. He's not the fastest winger anyway. But he's the type of very clever footballer who you could see playing just as well in the center as on the wing.

I thought Mcfadden was really good today. More impressive than O'Malley. Reddan was great too.

It's great that we're still playing well despite losing BOD, Horgan and Hines. Leinster actually don't rely on individual brilliance as much as they did when Dr. Phil and BOD were in their pomp. Our attacking game is more of a team effort. I have to say every player seems to have improved under Schmidt, apart from some of the oldies who're probably past their peak.

He may have for Munster, but I am talking on the international stage for Ireland. Where BOD has done it countless times. Earls did great at the RWC, and some of his tries were finished beautifully, but he has to do it more consistently.

Loving that video sin some brilliant clips what a song as well.

Whose going to be organising teh defensive line as well? Sexton? I think 13s usually have the most time/awareness to this.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think earls doesn't have the defensive nous, the hands, or the decision making to play 13 well agains good teams. Earls looks great at 13 against weaker teams because he sees gaps really well and is excellent at executing breaks but agains better teams and with less space he becomes lost and sort of nullified

What makes you think any of the rest of them will fare any better since we haven't seen any of them up against good teams?*

Earls has faired well enough when up against your average good team at Heineken Cup level. I don't think anyone worries too much about his defence. Pity Jean de Villieres left because that partnership was beginning to develop.

Why has Earls apparently played all the best defences and the other potential centres haven't? Cave has been around just as long as Earls has.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Why has Earls apparently played all the best defences and the other potential centres haven't? Cave has been around just as long as Earls has.

Quote Pete: "Earls looks great at 13 against weaker teams because he sees gaps really well and is excellent at executing breaks but agains better teams and with less space he becomes lost and sort of nullified."

Pete doesn't rate Heineken Cup teams, I do. (Earls got picked for a Lion Tour on the foot of playing outside centre in the Heineken Cup, so he must have not been that poor in that position in that competition).

I don't think Earls is a poor 13, but I think he must work on his distribution. I also don't think he is the best 13 Ireland have at their disposal.