Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

First topic message reminder :

USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

There is no question. Earls is too good to leave on the wing. With like fitz and Trimble available earls is the next Irish centre.

How can a player be "too good" to leave on the wing? So does that make Earls a better player than Bowe, Trimble, Fitz etc?

If Earls can't overtake the likes of Bowe, Trimble, Fitz, that shouldn't mean he gets the 13 shirt. He has to earn it. And I think he is down the pecking order when it comes to 13s.

Personally I think that with BOD injured and D'Arcy out of sorts you need to redraw your plans completely. I'd go with:

Redden, Sexton, Fitzgerald, McFadden, Bowe, Trimble, Kearney

Subs: Earles, ROG, Boss.

I think you are wong if you think Earls is down the pecking order at 13. For evidence to this, review what happened at the world cup (and note who scored most tries).

If Bowe was in Kidney's thoughts as a centre, he would have been used there during the world cup - Andrew Trimble would have been a very able replacement on that wing.

With regard to who organises the defence I seem to recall Russia being kept scoreless when Earls was the outside centre. As soon as he went off, russia scored two tries!

Anyway, Earls must be doing ok in training anyway after his injury to get picked ahead of Chambers & Barnes. Munster did ok with those two in his absence.

How can a player be "too good" to leave on the wing?

Just that you want some players getting their hands on the ball a lot more than others. For instance, I don't think Munster will be letting the ball go out wide tomorrow (they would if the had a Howlett & earls on the wings). Munster will be keeping it tight.

Glas a du wrote:Personally I think that with BOD injured and D'Arcy out of sorts you need to redraw your plans completely. I'd go with:

Redden, Sexton, Fitzgerald, McFadden, Bowe, Trimble, Kearney

Subs: Earles, ROG, Boss.

I take it you had a look on that highlights vid of Earls and you didn't like those couple of tries that Earls scored against Wales Glas?

Earls scored the most tries during the RWC at wing, so that seems to suggest that wing is his best position more than anything else. I don't think Bowe or Trimble or any of our wings bar Fitzgerald could or should make the move to centre. Earls possibly can but his distribution needs to improve big time.

Being put at centre on the return from injury doesn't mean anything about him doing well, he has been injured so how could he be "doing well" to get ahead of them two? If anything, I think if Earls' distribution improves he could be moved to 12, as Chambers/Barnes have 13 covered. Mafi is the only 12 Munster really have.

At the end of the day, as things stand, I don't think Earls is the answer to the next 13 for Ireland.

Sin e! How are you stat man? I think you are going to hammer us today, I just hope a game is made of it and that it's not too embarrassing for us.

Earles is an utility back, ideally suited for the bench where he can provide cover 12-15. All he had to do for his tries was run into the corner, he can do that well as ge has pace, but hardly an indicator that he deserves his spot come what may, although I understand DK disagrees.

Of course I rate hcup teams and sin the word 'best' and 'better' are infact different words sunshine.

I have worries about his defence. No his tackling but his positional sense and decision making. The example I always use is darcys try in the hcup semi 09. I'll try remember a few more.

Earls is very very fast has excellent finishing instincts but is not a good passer, or positional defender. If you look at the 'skills' Bowe has eg: unbelievable support lines and the ability to offload in the tackle, does earls have those skills anywhere near as much as Bowe does?

Anyways back to the game!

Someone mentioned toner outperforming Cullen at the moment, I know it sounds drastic but I agree with this I think Cullen has been quite poor this season and toner has been fairly good. What do other people think about this?

Vdm 6
Better scrummaging game, defended well and was more prominent in the loose than in previous games
Strauss 6
Worked hard in all facets of the game especially the breakdown and support play. Throwing was good if not great.
Ross 6
Anchored the scrum and made his tackles. Hit more ricks than he had previously too
Toner 8
Lineout steals, good carrying, silky hands at the right times. Good defence never taking a backward step. Very impressive.
Cullen 4.5
Silly yellow card. Quite poor in contact situations both with and without ball. Needs to up his game.
Sob 6
Did some nice work at the breakdown slowing op ball and making some steals his carrying was somewhat nullified however
Jennings 6.5
Was a menace on the floor and played poite well. Defence was rock solid and linked well in attack.
Heaslip 7.5
Made some big carries into traffic but also made some excellent turnovers an was good in the air. Defended welltoo. Excellent game.
Reddan 7.5
Seriously good quick ball away from the ruck good decision making. His kicking was fairly good too and took his try well
Sexton 8.5
Unbelievable game. Excellent kicking from hand and floor, defended his space well and showed great variety and range of passing as well as vision
Fitzgerald 7.5
Some very nice breaks. I was One of his critics. Great feet, elusiveness, support play, defence. Could have had 3 tries after he beat 3 men for it to be called back.
McFadden 6
Not much in attack I felt but distributed quite well and was very solid in defence. Needs to hit those support lines more frequently.
O'Malley 4
Poor defence wen higher than iv sen him go before and got bounced. Not much in attack IMO saw him mostly in rucks.
Nacewa 6
Good game I felt in defence but didn't get much good ball and when he did kicked through rather than backing himself.
Kearney 7.5
Very impressive, great improvement. Good running lines and vision. Good defence also and showed great desire in wanting the ball

Watched that clip and I saw a great winger finishing a lot of tries not a centre making tries for another

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Earls scored the most tries during the RWC at wing, so that seems to suggest that wing is his best position more than anything else. I don't think Bowe or Trimble or any of our wings bar Fitzgerald could or should make the move to centre. Earls possibly can but his distribution needs to improve big time.

Being put at centre on the return from injury doesn't mean anything about him doing well, he has been injured so how could he be "doing well" to get ahead of them two? If anything, I think if Earls' distribution improves he could be moved to 12, as Chambers/Barnes have 13 covered. Mafi is the only 12 Munster really have.

At the end of the day, as things stand, I don't think Earls is the answer to the next 13 for Ireland.

2 tries against Russia at centre (came off at half time). Also scored 2 tries against Wales when he moved to centre in the 6Ns (beside Brian O'Driscoll).

Earls is encouraged to go for it himself because he is a better finisher than the rest of them. As for positioning Pete, he seems to be always in the right spot to be able to run in simple tries.

I simply disagree that he doesn't create anything. He creates as much for Ireland as any of the wingers. Probably best creatively running from fullback though. Check out the 6Ns game against England.

Earls must have been sharp in training to get ahead of Chambers & Barnes. Problem with him coming back in the past from injury is that he didn't have any preseason. This season he had a fairly decent preseason in the world cup so his injury might not knock him back so much.

Is tries versus Russia and Wales were very much in the role of a winger though he caught the ball and ran! Trimble was the one jo displayed the attributes of a centre in the second Russia try. I'd be interested to see a stat on how many tries he sets up if there is such a thing!

Also positioning relates to defensive ie manus try in the Rwc warm ups

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Watched that clip and I saw a great winger finishing a lot of tries not a centre making tries for another

Earls has made plenty of tries, problem is that there isn't many around him who are able to finish them. He is encouraged to go for it himself. Think back to the 6Ns when Earls got the ball up into the Welsh 22 from the Ireland 22 which eventually lead to the Paddy Wallace/Cian Healy debacle.

Should Brian O'Driscoll not play in the centre because a lot of the tries he scores are flankers tries - not to mention being in the right spot at the right time for what some would call 'simple run-ins'.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Also positioning relates to defensive ie manus try in the Rwc warm ups

Maybe a little leeway could be given considering that it was a new centre combination. I would expect that more settled partnerships are going to do better.

Earls rarely plays with anything like a settled partnership. Anytime he plays 13 is because Brian O'Driscoll is missing who he normally plays along side internationally. Not only does he move position, he also has to contend with a change on either side of him.

5 games at centre internationlly is far too soon to dismiss him - particularly when anyone else who has played there hasn't really looked anyway better (Trimble, Horgan, Mcfadden).

And 5 games is too little to say he should be Ireland's next 13 too

We don't have anyone to finish opportunities earls creates?! That's just silly. Bowe and bod are great try scorers as is heaslip and if earls were to make a break and have a 2-1 against the fullback with one of our lads outside him I think that lad would be able to finish it somehow! That's not really the issue the Issue is earls is always the man outside never the one making the break and giving the pass. See which one sounds like a winger and which a centre based on that scenario.

I think you want earls to be 13 so much sin that you are Bigging up his traits that would make him a good centre and makin the things that would stand in his way seem irrelevant.

I imagine he will be 13 this 6n I also imagine that that will be the last time we see him at 13 for a run of games in a row. He isn't anywhere close to a natural centre and he was born to play wing

Earls has to come back and show form before he should get back on the Ireland team let alone be it wing or centre. I think he will do it though.

Got to disagree with you Sin, i think Earls is clearly a back three player but i do agree that Kidney clearly looks at him a BOD's successor. The performance you allude to in the 6N was nearly 2 years ago and his passing isnt great (it can be worked on mind you). For me he needs to be playing week in week out at 13 to be considered.

That being said there arent many great contenders. O'Malley was shown up yesterday by all accounts, McFadden hasnt been brilliant and Cave (whilst good yesterday) has had a couple of average showings. Fitz has reemerged as a contender for a wing spot. Trimble is in decent nick and Earls has to come back not to mention Bowe. Wing stocks look excellent.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:And 5 games is too little to say he should be Ireland's next 13 too

We don't have anyone to finish opportunities earls creates?! That's just silly. Bowe and bod are great try scorers as is heaslip and if earls were to make a break and have a 2-1 against the fullback with one of our lads outside him I think that lad would be able to finish it somehow! That's not really the issue the Issue is earls is always the man outside never the one making the break and giving the pass. See which one sounds like a winger and which a centre based on that scenario.

I think you want earls to be 13 so much sin that you are Bigging up his traits that would make him a good centre and makin the things that would stand in his way seem irrelevant.

I imagine he will be 13 this 6n I also imagine that that will be the last time we see him at 13 for a run of games in a row. He isn't anywhere close to a natural centre and he was born to play wing

The point I have consistently made is that Earls is the main contender to be Brian O'Driscoll's sucessor. Kidney has said that he sees him as Brian's successor. What I find strange is that he is dismissed even though he has only played 5 games in the centre for Ireland and you have to admit that most teams will need adjustment and will not look so good without the 100+ capped Brian O'Driscoll in the side.

Tommy Bowe has been off colour try scoring wise and Jamie Heaslip hasn't scored much either in the last year or so. (He missers Wally). Kearney, Trimble or Luke are not prolific either (and why Trimble didn't make too many starts in the world cup). Facts are that BOD, Earls & Bowe (when on form) are our best finishers and I suspect the reason Kidney wants earls is because of that and he wants him in a position where he gets his hands on the ball as often as possible.

That may change if Andrew Conway/Gilroy make the breakthrough to international level.

Cave has looked the best to me of the other contenders - I don't think he has enough pace though from what I've seen of him.

Was really disappointed with o malley I have to say. I thought that if he could deal w big banahan and have a good game by his standards he'd be looking at 6n squad place really amnt sure anymore now. He may not get the next hcup fixtures on that performance.

We aren't arguing about who kidney Wants to be 13 we are discussing who we think would make the best 13. So far most people dont think earls.

Plato last days of Socrates "don't trust the majority advice, trust the expert advice" the expert is kidney but I don't agree that earls is a good centre

Just to say I am not saying Earls could not make a great centre - but right now, with his distribution, positioning and handling lacking, he is not suited to the role. He has a lot to prove, and since he looks like he will be playing in the centres for Munster, we will see how well he does.

You left out Spence and also Griffin stand - Spence I think will be a definite future Irish centre if he continues to develop. Griffin I have been very impressed with so far, but I haven't seen an awful lot of him. Spence has the physicality and direct running and defence most of the other contenders don't have, while Griffin looks very creative.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Was really disappointed with o malley I have to say. I thought that if he could deal w big banahan and have a good game by his standards he'd be looking at 6n squad place really amnt sure anymore now. He may not get the next hcup fixtures on that performance.

Agree with this - I was disappointed with the centre partnership in general. It was definitely the worst performance I have seen from him. Hopefully he can come back from this and learn a lesson.

Also sin I have to agree with you about Cave, I am not sure he has the pace for the top level.

The problem is neither Earls or the HUNDRED other alterative O'Driscoll's out there!!!!

The problem is/was coaching.

Munster play a 'certain way', Leinster play a 'certain way'...and Ireland (yawn) play a...what's it called again?...oh yeah, a 'certain way'.

Well let's forget the tradition of certain ways and let's construct a side that want to win, and win convincingly. The problem is how Ireland is coached not any given player trying to fill the shoes of a great Irish player who never needed coaching. Don't either blame or praise any Irish coach for giving us O'Driscoll. He just WAS, from pretty much the day he was born. The rest of those that have come after can be very good players, lethal at times but to a man, they all need coaching to get the best out of them.

There are a number of players who could fill(ish) O'Driscoll's shoes at 13 but much more important is that we find a backs coach that can extract the goods, and more important still is that Declan begins to believe less in bulk and instead use the very efficient bulk to create REAL space for Irish backs (some of the most lethal in Europe from whatever province), to do their job effectively.

Pete

This 6N will be too soon i think for Spence and Griffin. Spence has been shackled somewhat by his move to 12 but there are signs he is getting better. I agree with Sin regarding Cave. To me he is the best of the other contenders but i would worry about pace if he were paired with D'arcy for instance.

Anyway enough of the threadjack from me. Congrats Leinster!

It was me that said that about Spence and Griffin stand

Yeah I think the 6N may be too soon, but they both look like very good future contenders. Also about all this talk of needing to improve distribution, one only has to look at how Nonu has went from a crash ball merchant, to possibly the best distributing and creative centre in world rugby.

Its been a long week rory

Its not that nonus distribution is so good but it's well above average it's the fact his physicality means he draws at least one defender sometimes two.

What do people think of toner vs Cullen?

I think his distribution is fantastic, added to the fact he draws in defenders. He is the inside centre every team would want.

Toner looked very good I thought, much better than Cullen. In fact, it showed that Toner should be used more in open play, as if he continues to work on that offloading game he could be a very effective asset to any team. He is so tall that players can only take him low, offering him the chance to take out a defender and send someone else through the gap.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Toner looked very good I thought, much better than Cullen. In fact, it showed that Toner should be used more in open play, as if he continues to work on that offloading game he could be a very effective asset to any team. He is so tall that players can only take him low, offering him the chance to take out a defender and send someone else through the gap.

I agree big time. He is looking great in all facets of play the only thing I wonder is, is he a good scrummaging lock? He has to be ahead of tuohy at this stage and pretty close to cullen

Earls lacks the nous, vision and the passing range to be our next 13.
For me, its as simple as that.

I said something similar here during the summer when some were arguing that Earls should be our 15 at the wold cup and Kearney dropped from the squad.

He hasnt got what it takes to play there either internationally.

He should concentrate on playing wing.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Toner looked very good I thought, much better than Cullen. In fact, it showed that Toner should be used more in open play, as if he continues to work on that offloading game he could be a very effective asset to any team. He is so tall that players can only take him low, offering him the chance to take out a defender and send someone else through the gap.

I agree big time. He is looking great in all facets of play the only thing I wonder is, is he a good scrummaging lock? He has to be ahead of tuohy at this stage and pretty close to cullen

I am not sure what his scrummaging is like personally, but the Leinster scrum in general seems to be doing rather well? I think if Toner is selected, a Brad Thorn-esque second row should be selected alongside him. Tuohy would probably work very well in conjunction with him, however both are behind POC, DOC and Ryan as things stand.

Hes looking very good I gotta say. Hopefully he can get paired with someone in the Irish set up who can help him continue to improve.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Earls lacks the nous, vision and the passing range to be our next 13.
For me, its as simple as that.

I said something similar here during the summer when some were arguing that Earls should be our 15 at the wold cup and Kearney dropped from the squad.

He hasnt got what it takes to play there either internationally.

He should concentrate on playing wing.

So who has this 'nous' then? Cave is the only one of the candidates that who has shown anything at HC level - the rest have been poor enough at that level, but fairly good at Magners. Earls looked fairly good as a centre against a young Ulster team earlier in the year, just the same as most the other candidates can look good against weakened teams in the Magners.

Bottom line is that Earls is better than all the other candidates.

You generalise quite a bit sin - where has Spence shown himself to be poor at HEC level? He is more than capable at that level, and has been better than Cave so far. Griffin has also been performing well, against the likes of Tindall who is an established international centre.

From what I have read he proved why he shouldn't be a centre today, so bottom line is he isn't better than all the other candidates, and nothing suggests that he is except for the fact he is from munster apparently.

Earls is not a centre, he lacks the vision, passing and is not savvy enough for the position.
There is an opening at 13 in Ireland and it will be interesting to see who makes that position his own.
You were the very one insisting Earls was FB during the summer make up your mind.

Agree - Earls definitely not the next Ireland 13.

Oh yes he is....

By the way Sin saying Spence is poor at HC level purely to justify claiming that Earls is a better 13 is absolutely cretinous, it really is.

Spence is actually very good at HC level, particularly impressive last season in the double headers against Bath and against Biarritz.

Artful_Dodger wrote:By the way Sin saying Spence is poor at HC level purely to justify claiming that Earls is a better 13 is absolutely cretinous, it really is.

Spence is actually very good at HC level, particularly impressive last season in the double headers against Bath and against Biarritz.

Exactly, and this season at 12. He has the physicality to compete at the highest level, and with more experience and better distribution, he will definitely feature for Ireland at 12 or 13.

Spence and Cave are good but are not at intl level yet and are probably behind O'Malley at this stage

After his Bath performance I would they are both ahead of O'Malley now.

Defensively very weak yesterday was O'Malley.

Cant see either of them making the Irish squad..

o malley should be nowhere near ireland team. he looks about the same size as stringer and for a centre its def a no no at international level. seriously worred that we have nobody to fill bods place. bowe wont be put there cos irfu av no control over ospreys selections but fitzy might be option but kidney i reckon wont force that with leinster.

DOD wrote:Cant see either of them making the Irish squad..

So far you have just been saying how neither Cave or Spence are good enough, but you haven't given any reasons. Have you even seen them play?

What position was EARLS playing during this Leinster v Bath game? All anyone is talking about on the last full page of this thread.

For a player stepping up in this game and taking it by the scruff of the neck, it has to be Toner, a brilliant display and my own MOTM.

Fitz and Kearney were great going forward, it seemed like both Nacewa and Kearney were both sitting back level (like two full backs taking half the field each).

EOM played a solid game but again, and like most games when he goes through 65-70 mins he gets a bit lazier in the tackle trying to go high and being bounced off. He will have to work on this.

I don't think he did enough to budge Joe away from having Darcy and McF as the centre partnership in clutch games.

Also, what is this 'Darcy out of sorts'... he has been putting in solid displays for months now (but there are a lot of blinkers on here).

Will big dev make the 6Ns team? No, he needs to prove this season he is first choice for Leinster consistently ahead of Browne and Sykes for big games (both at home and away).

Will EOM make the 6Ns team? No, I don't see him securing the 13 jersey for Leinster often enough between now and the 6Ns to force his way into contention.

Someone had Reddan starting the 6N earlier in the thread, again I don't see that happening ahead of Murray who will be given this season to bed in his place in the starting XV.

And please Kidney, Fitz isn't a centre unless in an emergency so unless he is ahead of Bowe, Trimble and Earls, give the kid this season to get fully back to speed at club level before taking him back into the squad.




And back with the game, should the fella who picked up Healy at the edge of a ruck and rammed him into the frozen turf head first be cited this week? I always thought if a player was down because of a head injury (being dropped on his head right infront of the referee), the ref is required to stop the game immediately due for medics to get on and make sure everything is alright. You know it was a bad incident (and luckily he is alright...) when you see the medical doctor in the red bib run into the middle of the pitch through a bath attacking phase to get to the man on in a heap on the ground. Poite (who I have defended in the past as being a pragmatic ref) went down in my opinion there as he decided to let flowing play come before player safety.

Oh, and Cullen was a very lucky boy to just get a yellow card. He could easily be cited and get a 2 week ban (doesn't have a bad record so would assume a low end sanction).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You generalise quite a bit sin - where has Spence shown himself to be poor at HEC level? He is more than capable at that level, and has been better than Cave so far. Griffin has also been performing well, against the likes of Tindall who is an established international centre.

From what I have read he proved why he shouldn't be a centre today, so bottom line is he isn't better than all the other candidates, and nothing suggests that he is except for the fact he is from munster apparently.

If he is better than Cave, why is he not selected ahead of him? He didn't even get a chance from his coach to make an impact off the bench against Clermont at home. And he is getting his chance at inside centre for Ulster because Paddy Wallace is out injured, not because his form is rated as being better. And to be honest, Aironi are no world beaters.

Do you think McGeechan selected Earls for the Lions as an outside centre because he was from Munster, rather than on his form at outside centre for munster. Does that explain why Cave, McFadden & o'Malley didn't get the call?

All I'm going to say is a good centre puts the ball through the hands and gets a simple try in the corner a selfish feicer( i.e. a winger) goes for the line himself. He could play there but needs to change a lot of things.

The Lions was two years ago.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You generalise quite a bit sin - where has Spence shown himself to be poor at HEC level? He is more than capable at that level, and has been better than Cave so far. Griffin has also been performing well, against the likes of Tindall who is an established international centre.

From what I have read he proved why he shouldn't be a centre today, so bottom line is he isn't better than all the other candidates, and nothing suggests that he is except for the fact he is from munster apparently.

If he is better than Cave, why is he not selected ahead of him? He didn't even get a chance from his coach to make an impact off the bench against Clermont at home. And he is getting his chance at inside centre for Ulster because Paddy Wallace is out injured, not because his form is rated as being better. And to be honest, Aironi are no world beaters.

Do you think McGeechan selected Earls for the Lions as an outside centre because he was from Munster, rather than on his form at outside centre for munster. Does that explain why Cave, McFadden & o'Malley didn't get the call?

Spence played in the HEC while Cave was injured last year, and was fantastic. Why are you asking why he isn't selected ahead of Cave, if you just answer the question yourself about Wallace being out? He is playing 12 as we don't have any other options really. Cave has more experience, and both are great players, so they are both playing right now.

What makes you think he was chosen to be an outside centre? Maybe it was the fact he can play a number of positions? And as it has been said, the lions was two years ago.

Band-
Thanks for bringing this back on topic.

Didn't see the Healy incident and watche the game twice? What happened?

Iv no idea why Cullen has become so ill-disciplined! It's becoming a bit of an issue considering he isn't playing very well aT the moment and toner is outperforming at times. I think he has a chance of a 6n squad spot.

Thought the same about o mallet but he really got shown up yesterday.