Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

First topic message reminder :

USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

Glas a du wrote:He means 13 at least.

Nah thats Gatlands style with Ospreys.

He specifically said 9 Leinster players. We are playing 9 of them. I think all Leinster forwards and all Munster backs

Not really stag because I think all things equal we should have selected Reddan/Boss ahead of O'Leary and Jennings ahead of Leamy and we shouldn't have been fecking around tinkering with the half backs so much.

and the issues of the irish rugby team since winning grand slam have been encapsulated perfectly in the last 5/6 posts especially by super fly!!

the south african blueprint got them to exactly the same stage in the world cup as us. disappointing quarter final defeat. albeit they were unlucky

right lets see how we get on with a decent backs coach. Step one find one. Im amazed we did not have somebody lined up as we knew Gaffney was going.

Dreading the 6 nations. Not a patch on the HC and in drastic need of a revamp or us learning how to play exciting rugby again

Glas a du wrote:He means 13 at least.

I actually meant 11 but I thought that might cause a virtual riot so scaled it back to 9

Everyone must have been reading the new book for christmas...

"Jeeves and Wooster Irish Coaching Manual"

I think Leinster's and Ireland's main weakness is their midfield.. the McFadden and O'Malley partnership was meant to be fantastic, and yet it failed to deliver.. D'Arcy and BOD's times are running out. The centres I think will come from one of the other provinces (I hope to see Marshall and Spence form a formidable partnership in the future).

Sure throw Paddy Wallace in there if you want to get the backs moving... 6 nations is two months away and we're already on about Ireland. Great stuff!

I thought Leinster midfield was excellent on Satuday Rory. It got exposed in defence a few times but if the opposition can't get the ball then it doesn't matter....some of the attacking play was exquisite...

As an FYI Paddy Wallace has been given a central contract for next year but Tom Court hasn't. It is only for 1 year though - I doubt it will be renewed.

So only 4 Ulster players on central contracts.

Thomond wrote:Sure throw Paddy Wallace in there if you want to get the backs moving...

yeah moving sideways maybe....

Spence at 12 and O'Malley at 13 will one day rule the world.......

Sure throw Paddy Wallace in there if you want to get the backs moving

what at 10?

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Brian Ashton??? Now there's a poetry and prose man if ever there was one. Does a nice round on philosophy from what I read from time to time

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9664482.stm

Looks like the BBC can't tell the difference between Leinster and Leicester

Well done Tigers for winning the HC last season and for beating Bath and Clermont in the same weekend.

DOD wrote:
If Ireland got to play teams of the same quality as Bath every week then who wouldnt like the Leinster "style" of rugby. Brian Ashton tried to have us play that type of rugby too...cant remember too many people smiling at the time.

Do you think Scotland,Italy or the U.S.A. are that much stronger than Bath?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:
If Ireland got to play teams of the same quality as Bath every week then who wouldnt like the Leinster "style" of rugby. Brian Ashton tried to have us play that type of rugby too...cant remember too many people smiling at the time.

Do you think Scotland,Italy or the U.S.A. are that much stronger than Bath?

I really hope you are joking...

roddersm wrote:I thought Leinster midfield was excellent on Satuday Rory. It got exposed in defence a few times but if the opposition can't get the ball then it doesn't matter....some of the attacking play was exquisite...

Really? I saw the match on TG4, which was extended highlights (but shown basically all the match) and I wasn't too impressed. O'Malley specifically disappointed me, and McFadden was better than I have seen previously, but isn't setting the world alight.

Rory you don't score 50 odd points if your midfield is rubbish!

DOD wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:
If Ireland got to play teams of the same quality as Bath every week then who wouldnt like the Leinster "style" of rugby. Brian Ashton tried to have us play that type of rugby too...cant remember too many people smiling at the time.

Do you think Scotland,Italy or the U.S.A. are that much stronger than Bath?

I really hope you are joking...

Okay sorry I should have picked a better example,last year we comfortably beat Clermont,Leicster,Saracens,Toulouse,Racing Metro and Northampton in the Heino playing Leinster "style" rugby.Do you think Scotland or Italy are better than all of these.

leinsterbaby wrote:A great backs coach is no use to us if kidney doesn't give him scope to influence how the backs play. Word on the grapevine is that Gaffney wasn't allowed stamp his Mark on Irelands backs and his input was very limited by kidney.

Kidney is the man in charge and has a certain style of play this won't change while he is in charge. We actually have first class backs but they often look like they haven't a clue what theyre meant to be doing, badly drilled, low on confidence and devoid of any decent structured moves. How hard can it be to develop some quality backs moves?

I was under the impression that Gaffney only got the job in the first place as he was the Leinster back's coach. I suppose when he got the bullet from Leinster (and it would seem Leinster were not a happy camp at the end of Cheika's tenure there), it maybe they were the reason he didn't have much influence, and not Kidney, as it would seem that both Kiss & Smal seem to have a big influence in the Ireland coaching setup, so its not like Kidney is afraid to delegate to his assistants.

we scored 50 plus points and played some terrific rugby. midfield were just fine. if leinster want to attack and score high scores reddan must play. mc fadden and o malley were lively throughout. o malleys passing in particular was very good.

as for the jeeves and wooster comment dod, i think secret fly in his initial post was absolutely spot on about current problems on the Irish team. Nail on the head territory. It may not sit with people who believe Kidney can do no wrong but hey ho there you go.

i would also wonder how much of a say Gaffney was given in world cup warm ups and world cup. our back play was beyond clueless. i cannot believe gaffney (who i am not a fan of) would say right lads today we are shovelling the ball back and forth and fingers crossed sob, heaslip or ferris tramples over someone. it is not beyond the realms of possibility that kidney said after france game when we tried all of the intricate moves that didnt come off with knock on central, right low risk stuff from now on lads. lets base our game on retaining the ball for multiple phases and bludgeoning the opposition with our back row of ball carriers ie the south african blueprint. he may have been proved right but gatland found him out in the world cup

any eta on us getting a backs coach, summer tour im guessing. probably be bryan smith. jesus wept. rather steady eddie

roddersm wrote:Rory you don't score 50 odd points if your midfield is rubbish!

Course you can - England have done it a few times with the likes of Hape, Noon, Tindall etc etc.

Though I didn't say the Leinster midfield was rubbish, but it wasn't as good as I expected it to be.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:
If Ireland got to play teams of the same quality as Bath every week then who wouldnt like the Leinster "style" of rugby. Brian Ashton tried to have us play that type of rugby too...cant remember too many people smiling at the time.

Do you think Scotland,Italy or the U.S.A. are that much stronger than Bath?

I really hope you are joking...

Okay sorry I should have picked a better example,last year we comfortably beat Clermont,Leicster,Saracens,Toulouse,Racing Metro and Northampton in the Heino playing Leinster "style" rugby.Do you think Scotland or Italy are better than all of these.

They also didn't beat Montpelier in France and was poor enough against Bath last week in the Rec.

The All Blacks were not flinging the ball around too much in the world cup final either!

roddersm wrote:I have to say that the solution to Irelands problems are staring us right in the face but because of the sensitivities around the provincial rivalries most are afraid to come out and say it.

Kidney need to pick the bulk of the Leinster side and let them play their natural game.

Leinster are playing fantastic attacking rugby and Ulster and munster quite frankly for the most part aren't. Therefore it stands to reason that the more players from the other provinces and clubs you dilute Leinster with the more it stifles the play and cohesion.

Kidney should start by picking the entire Leinster side, NIQ's excepted and then fill the gaps with other players from other sources and where there are players like O'Connell, Ferris, Best, Murray etc who are perhaps better than their Leinster equivalents and only where they fit the style of play. Simple and if that means theres 9 or 10 Leinster players in the XV then feck it.

Sweet Mother of Divine Jayzuz Rodders, DONT tell the truth round these parts. Some of the Munster lads stilll want us to revert back to the aul days (we never really left them behind). And nothing will shift that perception.

The real truth is, we need a new head coach, if Ireland are to move into the 21st Century. Shafted by a limited Gatland at the RWC said it all for me. He is technically bereft at the top the international game. We had no plan A never mind B or C.

Roll on 2 years. Or sooner.

The majority of the team will be Leinster players. Nobody would dispute that. POC the only clear candidate to be picked from a Munster POV.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:
If Ireland got to play teams of the same quality as Bath every week then who wouldnt like the Leinster "style" of rugby. Brian Ashton tried to have us play that type of rugby too...cant remember too many people smiling at the time.

Do you think Scotland,Italy or the U.S.A. are that much stronger than Bath?

I really hope you are joking...

Okay sorry I should have picked a better example,last year we comfortably beat Clermont,Leicster,Saracens,Toulouse,Racing Metro and Northampton in the Heino playing Leinster "style" rugby.Do you think Scotland or Italy are better than all of these.

They also didn't beat Montpelier in France and was poor enough against Bath last week in the Rec.

The All Blacks were not flinging the ball around too much in the world cup final either!

Yeah and they nearly lost to a French team that they outclassed only a few weeks before that when they did fling it about.Thanks for making my point.

You can point out what Leinster didn't do all you want but the fact is they were the best team in Europe last year and are looking very good again this year playing sexy rugby.Ireland haven't been the best team in Europe since 2009 and even then we were never very convincing winners bar a fantastic performance against France.

Thomond wrote:The majority of the team will be Leinster players. Nobody would dispute that. POC the only clear candidate to be picked from a Munster POV.

I would add Murray. Ryan or O'Callaghan will probably partner POC also. And Earls, he is a quality player to have, whether he is starting or on the bench. Jones when he returns also

Well rumour has it is is only going to be 18 players on central contracts.

If Court isn't getting 1 does that mean only 2 props are ?

Kearney is playing pretty well and who knows how Jones does when he comes back and if he comes back in January. I wouldn't have Earls starting at the moment on the bench definitely.

agreed rory. i think ryan and poc will start v wales and no issues with it. donners on the bench. toner/tuohy a bit behind still. leo is a leinster legend but will more than likely stand aside and cannot see him figuring in green unless injury to poc.

how long is peter o mahony out for? pity as he would have a been a legitimate shout for a bench slot.

i also do not have bowe starting at the moment such is the strength of players.

my back 3 would be kearney,trimble,fitz on form. midfield, god only knows. mc fadden, earls maybe? no matter who we play we will be giving away pounds and inches v roberts and davies.

My personal backline for the 6 nations:

9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) Fitz
12) McFadden/D'Arcy
13) Spence
14) Bowe
15) Kearney

20) Reddan
21) ROG
22) Earls

I know Spence has been at 12 mostly, with Cave starting at 13 for Ulster, but to me Spence is the better player. O'Malley didn't really cut it for me over the weekend, his defence must improve. If Bowe doesn't improve, and Earls plays wing again, I would start Earls with Fitz, Bowe to the bench.

I've always thought McFadden/Spence could be a good combo in the future. For the 6 Nations I'd prefer Bowe at 13 though, then choose two from Fitzgerald/Trimble/Earls for the wings.

As did I, but I am not sure that McFadden is creative enough to play with Spence.. or visa versa.

9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Fitzgerald
12 D'arcy
13 Earls
14 Trimble
15 Kearney

22. McFadden

Spence and O'Malley/Cave to lineout for the Wolfhounds.

Would you not include Bowe at all rodders? And no I think at least one of those 3 should be in the 6 nations squad (Spence for me).

Hmm actually no rory. Fitzgerald and Trimble are in better form and theres a lot of talented 3/4's who are playing well.

I'm sure he'll be selected though.

If I had a guess at what the 6 nations squad will look like:

Scrum Half - Murray, Reddan, Boss
Out Half - Sexton, ROG, Keatley
Centres - D'Arcy, McFadden, Spence/Cave/O'Malley
Wingers - Trimble, Bowe, Earls, Fitzgerald
Full Back - Kearney, Jones (if he is back by this stage)

A lot of talent in there and a good mix of experience and youth!

roddersm wrote:9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Fitzgerald
12 D'arcy
13 Earls
14 Trimble
15 Kearney

22. McFadden

Spence and O'Malley/Cave to lineout for the Wolfhounds.

spot on with that selection rodders. Except for Tommy maybe

Rory re Spence, O'Malley and Cave I would expect all to feature in the extended squad if they continue in their current vein. Realistically though unless there are further injuries I doubt any of these will be jettisoned into the match day squad in the 6N.

The Wolfhounds and summer tour are more realistic targets for these 3 I think. It would be good to see Spence and O'Malley together again but any combination of those 3 is exciting.

Dod like I said to Rory I have no doubt Bowe will be in the XV but for me he needs to start performing for the Ospreys. Fitz and Trimble are on form and then you have young guys like Zebo, Gilroy, Carr not to mention McFadden and Earls. He needs to up his game.

With BOD out I expect Kidney will plump for Earls plus A.N. Other i.e. one from D'arcy, McFadden or Paddy Wallace. D'arcy is the most likely and personally I don't think McFadden/Earls is a great combo.

DOD wrote:

roddersm wrote:9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Fitzgerald
12 D'arcy
13 Earls
14 Trimble
15 Kearney

22. McFadden

Spence and O'Malley/Cave to lineout for the Wolfhounds.

spot on with that selection rodders. Except for Tommy maybe

It is a bit tough on Tommy there, doesn't even get on the bench as he wouldn't cover enough positions.

If Tommy comes back to Ulster I'll pick him!

I'm really looking forward to that Wolfhounds game against England

09 Paul Marshall
10 Ian Keatley
11 Simon Zebo
12 Fergus McFadden
13 Eoin O'Malley
14 Fionn Carr
15 Gavin Duffy

20 Tomas O'Leary
21 Ian Humphreys
22 Nevin Spence

If POM is back fit whose place does he take in the 6N squad? Jennings or Leamy, I'm guessing he goes instead of Jennings.

And Murray/Reddan might end up taking games by committee. Reddans quicker delivery would probably help ROG get around the rush defence of the Welsh, but Murray might start that game as he is a better defensive unit.

With BOD injured and Darcy washed up, Earls probably has the most experience in centre for Ireland behind them so takes the 13 jersey and Spence can come in for the 12.

Jones will hopefully be back fit by the 6Ns so he can take the starting fullback position (Kearney isn't even the best fullback on his own team).

Bowe is one of the first names on the teamsheet (at least alphabetically) and Trimble deserves a run to reward his consistency over more than a year of solid/great displays.

So its simple;

Murray- ROG
Spence - Earls
Bowe - Jones - Trimble

Stag the wolfhounds lineups could be more exciting than the 1st XV!

Not disagreeing with your selection but are you disappointed with Keatleys lack of game time? Should Niall O'Connor and IHumph be ahead in the pecking order?

Duffy is playing very well but is 30. I'd like to see adam D'arcy get capped and Felix Jones get gametime if he is back.

With Cave,Barnes and Griffin there too there are a lot of potential centre combinations.

Jones is still injured. D'Arcy seems to have fallen well out of favour behind Terblanche and even Danielli.

I think Keatley has got a lot of game time just not in the HEC which to me is fair enough considering how ROG has performed for us. Humphreys is playing very poorly this season.

In relation to Duffy without wanting to antagonise anyone I think only a overexcited halfwit donkey would deny somebody who is performing well a place because he is 30

Luke Fitzgerald is the form back in Ireland right now so deserves to be the 1st name on the teamsheet at 11.

Stag Adam D'arcy is starting 15 ahead of Terblanche and Danielli and has been one of Ulsters best players recently?

red_stag wrote:
In relation to Duffy without wanting to antagonise anyone I think only a overexcited halfwit donkey would deny somebody who is performing well a place because he is 30

.....I think only an 'overexcited halfwit donkey' would select a 30 year old journey man, albeit an on form one, in an international 'A' side ahead of a talented 20 something with potential..... .... ...

Really? I hadn't seen the Aironi games (Im guessing he played?) but I know he was on the bench against Tigers and on the bench against Clermont. I wouldn't really mind if he played all that much. Duffy would be my pick though.

D'Arcy played both Aironi games and played well.

red_stag wrote:I'm really looking forward to that Wolfhounds game against England

09 Paul Marshall
10 Ian Keatley
11 Simon Zebo
12 Fergus McFadden
13 Eoin O'Malley
14 Fionn Carr
15 Gavin Duffy

20 Tomas O'Leary
21 Ian Humphreys
22 Nevin Spence

Stag, McFadden will definitely not be in the wolfhounds. Spence I hope is also not in the wolfhounds, but McFadden will certainly be in the main squad.