Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

First topic message reminder :

USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

Bathite wrote:Who will be the Ireland 9 come 6ns? Seems that a short while ago, you had loads of depth, with Reddan Stringer TOL Boss all on form.

Stop making excuses for him! So if he plays outside Reddan or Boss, then he will have nowhere to hide. Unless the 9 is Bergamasco, it doesn't make that much difference, ROG doesn't seem to struggle

Please don't mention TOL and Ireland in the same breath. It sends shivers down my spine. He shouldn't even be fifth choice.

SecretFly wrote:asoreleftshoulder hits the nail...

I was a carpenter before the recession.

Kidney wants Sexton to play a percentages game, he wants him to play like O'Gara because O'Gara has come from Kidney's own blueprint side, and grew to learn his game being coached by the man who wanted him to play a certain way. You could say Kidney gave O'Gara his 'natural' rhythm.

Therefore he wants Sexton to play in an O'Gara way and has O'Gara as standby to go back to failsafe mode if need be. That's Kidney's issue, not Sexton's. Sexton meanwhile plays the way he was educated to play and that comes more fluidly to him. He learned from the erratic and brilliant Contepomi.

The problems of interpretation and frustration both from Sexton and from Kidney shouldn't be unexpected. Oil and water, after a quick mix.

Any coach with a bit of wit should be able to see that Sexton is the best player in the country.

The team should be built around Sexton not the other way round. When you have one of the best attacking fly-halves in Europe at your disposal you don't stick him outside the slowest passing Scrum half in the country (World).

If you want to play percentages you pick O'Gara but if you want to keep the ball in hand you pick Sexton but FFS pick a feckin scrum half with a brain and who can pass the flippin ball!

roddersm wrote:Any coach with a bit of wit should be able to see that Sexton is the best player in the country.

The team should be built around Sexton not the other way round. When you have one of the best attacking fly-halves in Europe at your disposal you don't stick him outside the slowest passing Scrum half in the country (World).

If you want to play percentages you pick O'Gara but if you want to keep the ball in hand you pick Sexton but FFS pick a feckin scrum half with a brain and who can pass the flippin ball!

Stephen. Ferris.

Though Sexton I honestly think has the potential to become the best out half in the world if he shows some consistency! Next to Carter of course.

Rory you are suggesting we play Ferris at fly half? .......that is genious !

An all flanker XV . . . . .ingenious.

You say best player in the country rodders! Not out half

roddersm wrote:Rory you are suggesting we play Ferris at fly half? .......that is genious !

Well he was inside centre against Aironi - so why not

SecretFly wrote:Kidney wants Sexton to play a percentages game, he wants him to play like O'Gara because O'Gara has come from Kidney's own blueprint side, and grew to learn his game being coached by the man who wanted him to play a certain way. You could say Kidney gave O'Gara his 'natural' rhythm.

Therefore he wants Sexton to play in an O'Gara way and has O'Gara as standby to go back to failsafe mode if need be. That's Kidney's issue, not Sexton's. Sexton meanwhile plays the way he was educated to play and that comes more fluidly to him. He learned from the erratic and brilliant Contepomi.

The problems of interpretation and frustration both from Sexton and from Kidney shouldn't be unexpected. Oil and water, after a quick mix.

.... the fact that Leinster won nothing with Conters at outhalf might have encouraged Sexton to think he might have a bit more success if he modelled his game on ROG's game perhaps.

edit: and Conters had decent kicking percentages. That has been Sexton's major flaw, particularly away from the Aviva / RDS he bottles it.

aw oh here comes Sin..... .......

double post

Sin é wrote:
.... the fact that Leinster won nothing with Conters at outhalf might have encouraged Sexton to think he might have a bit more success if he modelled his game on ROG's game perhaps.

edit: and Conters had decent kicking percentages. That has been Sexton's major flaw, particularly away from the Aviva / RDS he bottles it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fn1qyoDzOQ

Yeah I see what you mean

If only Sexton was from Munster.. I think we would have heard an entirely different tune coming from you Sin

"He made 39475 passes and set up 13439 tries.."

So good you said it all twice Sin. Ah well, so it goes.

Anyway, you'd be reading an awful lot into what I wrote if you adjudged it to be in anyway a criticism of O'Gara. I have the highest of regard for O'Gara and his flyhalf style of play. It's his way and he has perfected it and yes, it HELPS get results - of course there are many big men in red who have to help out too. He might indeed pull off the last minute drop goals but it's the big boys that get him into position.

Yes, I won't and never had allowed a bad word to be spoken of O'Gara without running to his defense. But O'Gara isn't the subject, Sexton is, and more to the point, why he is having problems holding down his flyhalf position with Ireland. That's the subject of the moment.

My view is that it stems from many more issues than Sexton's own standards or abilities. It is a team issue and it is an issue whereby a Munster and South African blueprint is being imposed on certain players that have come from a much more instinctive and dynamic background. I am not saying the wrongs or rights of it, I am saying that's what it is when you get rid of all the details and call a spade a spade.

Kidney gains comfort from O'Gara's presence and why wouldn't he, O'Gara is a player in his own image, but that's a pretty solid reason too why Sexton can feel uncomfortable and feel the pressure. You know it's true, we all know it's true.

As for Munster success verses Leinster success, you're welcome to have that debate with yourself - I'm a diehard Ireland fan, that's been MY club for 30 years... so you could say I cheer no matter what Province wins on any given weekend

His kicking has been good this season. Anywhere.
No problem.

SecretFly wrote:So good you said it all twice Sin. Ah well, so it goes.

Anyway, you'd be reading an awful lot into what I wrote if you adjudged it to be in anyway a criticism of O'Gara. I have the highest of regard for O'Gara and his flyhalf style of play. It's his way and he has perfected it and yes, it HELPS get results - of course there are many big men in red who have to help out too. He might indeed pull off the last minute drop goals but it's the big boys that get him into position.

Yes, I won't and never had allowed a bad word to be spoken of O'Gara without running to his defense. But O'Gara isn't the subject, Sexton is, and more to the point, why he is having problems holding down his flyhalf position with Ireland. That's the subject of the moment.

My view is that it stems from many more issues than Sexton's own standards or abilities. It is a team issue and it is an issue whereby a Munster and South African blueprint is being imposed on certain players that have come from a much more instinctive and dynamic background. I am not saying the wrongs or rights of it, I am saying that's what it is when you get rid of all the details and call a spade a spade.

Kidney gains comfort from O'Gara's presence and why wouldn't he, O'Gara is a player in his own image, but that's a pretty solid reason too why Sexton can feel uncomfortable and feel the pressure. You know it's true, we all know it's true.

As for Munster success verses Leinster success, you're welcome to have that debate with yourself - I'm a diehard Ireland fan, that's been MY club for 30 years... so you could say I cheer no matter what Province wins on any given weekend

Great post SecretFly for next Irish coach!

geoff998rugby wrote:

roddersm wrote:Rory you are suggesting we play Ferris at fly half? .......that is genious !

Well he was inside centre against Aironi - so why not

Feck I thought your were joking Geoff and then I read the BT report!

Great post secretfly!

SecretFly wrote:Yes, I won't and never had allowed a bad word to be spoken of O'Gara without running to his defense.

Typical ROG. Always needs people to help him out in defence

red_stag wrote:

Typical ROG. Always needs people to help him out in defence

'' very good ''

It's the boyish hair, you see. You just feel protective of him. If he starts to lose it on top, he'll be on his own

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So good you said it all twice Sin. Ah well, so it goes.

Anyway, you'd be reading an awful lot into what I wrote if you adjudged it to be in anyway a criticism of O'Gara. I have the highest of regard for O'Gara and his flyhalf style of play. It's his way and he has perfected it and yes, it HELPS get results - of course there are many big men in red who have to help out too. He might indeed pull off the last minute drop goals but it's the big boys that get him into position.

Yes, I won't and never had allowed a bad word to be spoken of O'Gara without running to his defense. But O'Gara isn't the subject, Sexton is, and more to the point, why he is having problems holding down his flyhalf position with Ireland. That's the subject of the moment.

My view is that it stems from many more issues than Sexton's own standards or abilities. It is a team issue and it is an issue whereby a Munster and South African blueprint is being imposed on certain players that have come from a much more instinctive and dynamic background. I am not saying the wrongs or rights of it, I am saying that's what it is when you get rid of all the details and call a spade a spade.

Kidney gains comfort from O'Gara's presence and why wouldn't he, O'Gara is a player in his own image, but that's a pretty solid reason too why Sexton can feel uncomfortable and feel the pressure. You know it's true, we all know it's true.

As for Munster success verses Leinster success, you're welcome to have that debate with yourself - I'm a diehard Ireland fan, that's been MY club for 30 years... so you could say I cheer no matter what Province wins on any given weekend

Great post SecretFly for next Irish coach!

+1.

Players play the way the coach instructs. Or they dont play. Its Kidney who needs changing. Not Sexton. Either that or we get a brilliant backs coach, who is given free reign to shake up predictable Ireland. Now, which backs coach could get most of the Irish backline playing like a well-oiled, try-scoring, killing machine? Errrm.

BTW. Welcome back Fly!

Ireland do seem to be in a bit of a muddle when it comes to what "style" of rugby do we actually play. In '09 we had a distinctive style. Tight defensive rugby. We passed less and kicked more than anyone. It worked. We played the ELV's and old tackle laws better than anyone bar South Africa. Well actually we even beat South Africa in a an unbeaten Grand Slam winning season. This is the way Kidney's teams have always played and he's been very successful.

But since the tackle laws changed, the team have been constantly going on about playing attacking rugby but the performances have been mostly poor. It's as if not everyone is on the same page. Most of our attacks end up with our winger being tackled into touch or kicking it away. Apart from the England game, there's no penetration, with Sexton OR O'Gara. Even the win over Australia was more of a 2009 type performance.

We definitely have the players to play a more attacking game. Just watch Leinster. Or the brilliance of the Munster back three last season in broken play. We did it for years under EOS. But I'm not sure Kidney knows how to coach a team to play that way. He should either get an attack coach in to help, or revert to the tight style. Anything but the confused state Ireland seem to be in for the last 2 years.

It not just about a backs coach Gibson, its about how the whole team play...backs and forwards handling and offloading.

Leinster are so effective because they generate quick ball and run great lines.

People expect Sexton to play the same for Ireland when he's getting slow ball all the time and you have players like O'Connell standing in the 10 channel.

For Leinster everyone know their role but Ireland are all over the place at times and it comes down to bad coaching and onfield leadership imo...we don't know when to pick and go, when to kick or when to spread the ball and there's a disconnect between backs and forwards and 9 and 10 that you don't have at Leinster.

It's good to be back, Gibbo I've listened in quite a bit to this new place... but resisted until someone said something dumb a few days ago. That lit my fuse and I said 'Damn it'!!! This place needs me!'

So I slipped in quietly and well, it mightn't need me afterall but it sure has got to put up with me...for another while anyway, until I get all my pent up innner demons out

Stag and Mick-

Check your messages please.

Fly-

Good to have you back.

Rodders-
I agree with that post you just wrote 100%!

I don't mean to hype Ireland up to the extremes.. but we really do potentially have one of the best backlines in world rugby. There are certain things we need to sort out atm, such as our centres, but look at the amount of talent we have! Some really good players are probably going to miss out.

I'm very interested to see who the HCup team of the week will be.

What Ireland is missing is a potent midfield. Every team that does well has a big bully at 12 (and of course the decline of BOD & D'arcy is also a potent factor).

The only top tear country that Ireland has done well against in the last 12 months is the only team that doesn't have one. Forget blaming the lack of a pocock or warburton in the team. What we are really missing is a big, strong 12 who can break the gaineline and offload at international level.

SecretFly wrote:So good you said it all twice Sin. Ah well, so it goes.

Anyway, you'd be reading an awful lot into what I wrote if you adjudged it to be in anyway a criticism of O'Gara. I have the highest of regard for O'Gara and his flyhalf style of play. It's his way and he has perfected it and yes, it HELPS get results - of course there are many big men in red who have to help out too. He might indeed pull off the last minute drop goals but it's the big boys that get him into position.

Yes, I won't and never had allowed a bad word to be spoken of O'Gara without running to his defense. But O'Gara isn't the subject, Sexton is, and more to the point, why he is having problems holding down his flyhalf position with Ireland. That's the subject of the moment.

My view is that it stems from many more issues than Sexton's own standards or abilities. It is a team issue and it is an issue whereby a Munster and South African blueprint is being imposed on certain players that have come from a much more instinctive and dynamic background. I am not saying the wrongs or rights of it, I am saying that's what it is when you get rid of all the details and call a spade a spade.

Kidney gains comfort from O'Gara's presence and why wouldn't he, O'Gara is a player in his own image, but that's a pretty solid reason too why Sexton can feel uncomfortable and feel the pressure. You know it's true, we all know it's true.

As for Munster success verses Leinster success, you're welcome to have that debate with yourself - I'm a diehard Ireland fan, that's been MY club for 30 years... so you could say I cheer no matter what Province wins on any given weekend

Its an interesting if completely oversimplified arguement. It might just be the case that as with extremely poor opposition (as Bath were on Saturday) it will make anyone look good and especially a half decent backline. Just to note I am all for Sexton being the current first choice for IReland so this is not about ROG either. My feeling is that Sexton finds it hard in the step up to international level. I think he is a good outhalf but that players like Madigan who is a much more natural footballer will be the future. The argument regarding the coaching is neither here nor there but is an interesting opinion without any solid facts.

roddersm wrote:It not just about a backs coach Gibson, its about how the whole team play...backs and forwards handling and offloading.

Leinster are so effective because they generate quick ball and run great lines.

People expect Sexton to play the same for Ireland when he's getting slow ball all the time and you have players like O'Connell standing in the 10 channel.

For Leinster everyone know their role but Ireland are all over the place at times and it comes down to bad coaching and onfield leadership imo...we don't know when to pick and go, when to kick or when to spread the ball and there's a disconnect between backs and forwards and 9 and 10 that you don't have at Leinster.

And who coaches Leinster? Of course those areas have to be improved in tandem or the unit, as a whole, wont click. Jonno Gibbes is Leinster's most precious asset. Has been since 2008/2009. Cheika came and went. Schmidt improved our back play beyond even the Contepomi and Hickie days. Gibbes has been the constant and Feek has made our scrum into one not to be messed with.

I think the IRFU and Kidney should really look at their coaching staff. For me, they have failed their remit. Another discussion, but it greatly affects the way the same players play for province and country. The difference is stark. Just sayin...

Sin é wrote:What Ireland is missing is a potent midfield. Every team that does well has a big bully at 12 (and of course the decline of BOD & D'arcy is also a potent factor).

The only top tear country that Ireland has done well against in the last 12 months is the only team that doesn't have one. Forget blaming the lack of a pocock or warburton in the team. What we are really missing is a big, strong 12 who can break the gaineline and offload at international level.

I'd agree with this although I don't think you need a big basher at midfield you need either power or pace,preferably both but the last few years we've had neither.

A great backs coach is no use to us if kidney doesn't give him scope to influence how the backs play. Word on the grapevine is that Gaffney wasn't allowed stamp his Mark on Irelands backs and his input was very limited by kidney.

Kidney is the man in charge and has a certain style of play this won't change while he is in charge. We actually have first class backs but they often look like they haven't a clue what theyre meant to be doing, badly drilled, low on confidence and devoid of any decent structured moves. How hard can it be to develop some quality backs moves?

Leinster I doubt thats the case. Gaffney stifled the Leinster backs before Ireland and stifled Munsters ones before that.

DOD wrote: The argument regarding the coaching is neither here nor there but is an interesting opinion without any solid facts.

My argument in a nutshell! Oversimplification is the art of seeing the tree in the wood that you want to cut down and bring home to the fire, rather than cutting the whole wood down to get to it. Over-simplification is a very good idea... as no finance minister in the history of this (Irish) state has ever worked out.

But to get back to your point DOD, yes - the argument regarding coaching is neither HERE NOR THERE - and thus the problem sits before us and thus Kidney needs a solution. Is it here or there?

Gibson I am agreeing with you but I'm just pointing out that the problems run deeper than just the back play. Its the team as a whole and how it functions 1 to 22. Even the use of the bench and rotation has been poor.

It is massively fustrating to watch so many talented players perform for their provinces, mainly but not exclusively at Leinster, and then watch Ireland play like headless chickens.

DOD wrote:

Its an interesting if completely oversimplified arguement. It might just be the case that as with extremely poor opposition (as Bath were on Saturday) it will make anyone look good and especially a half decent backline. Just to note I am all for Sexton being the current first choice for IReland so this is not about ROG either. My feeling is that Sexton finds it hard in the step up to international level. I think he is a good outhalf but that players like Madigan who is a much more natural footballer will be the future. The argument regarding the coaching is neither here nor there but is an interesting opinion without any solid facts.

The problem I have with this is that the entire Irish team have struggled over the last few years,it's not just Sexton but he is in the a position that shows up more there is a genuinely quality replacement for him,which has been rare in most positions.I would say wing and 10 are the only positions which weren't nailed on over the last 4 years. This is changing as we have some real quality coming through in a lot of positions but it wasn't there before.

SecretFly wrote:So good you said it all twice Sin. Ah well, so it goes.

Anyway, you'd be reading an awful lot into what I wrote if you adjudged it to be in anyway a criticism of O'Gara. I have the highest of regard for O'Gara and his flyhalf style of play. It's his way and he has perfected it and yes, it HELPS get results - of course there are many big men in red who have to help out too. He might indeed pull off the last minute drop goals but it's the big boys that get him into position.

Yes, I won't and never had allowed a bad word to be spoken of O'Gara without running to his defense. But O'Gara isn't the subject, Sexton is, and more to the point, why he is having problems holding down his flyhalf position with Ireland. That's the subject of the moment.

My view is that it stems from many more issues than Sexton's own standards or abilities. It is a team issue and it is an issue whereby a Munster and South African blueprint is being imposed on certain players that have come from a much more instinctive and dynamic background. I am not saying the wrongs or rights of it, I am saying that's what it is when you get rid of all the details and call a spade a spade.

Kidney gains comfort from O'Gara's presence and why wouldn't he, O'Gara is a player in his own image, but that's a pretty solid reason too why Sexton can feel uncomfortable and feel the pressure. You know it's true, we all know it's true.

As for Munster success verses Leinster success, you're welcome to have that debate with yourself - I'm a diehard Ireland fan, that's been MY club for 30 years... so you could say I cheer no matter what Province wins on any given weekend

I did not think you were criticising O'Gara, I think you are blaming Kidney and his handling of Sexton as to why Sexton doesn't perform (or at least is very, very inconsistent) at international level. If Sexton can't better O'Gara even though he has all the natural ability to do so, there is something wrong with Sexton, not with his coaching.He just does not have the top 2 cm to be a top competitor. Thats where O'Gara beats the whole lot of them out there (including Stephen Jones, Priestland, Hogson, Sexton, McAlister etc etc). Nick Evans has it as well.

red_stag wrote:Leinster I doubt thats the case. Gaffney stifled the Leinster backs before Ireland and stifled Munsters ones before that.

Nonsense Leinster had no issue in the backs with Gaffney there. We do have a more backs focused manager now though.

Gibbes has been awesome for us really awesome and a lot of work that he has done has led to this attacking play where backs and forwards interlink at will and everyone is comfortable on the ball

Sin é wrote:What Ireland is missing is a potent midfield. Every team that does well has a big bully at 12 (and of course the decline of BOD & D'arcy is also a potent factor).

The only top tear country that Ireland has done well against in the last 12 months is the only team that doesn't have one. Forget blaming the lack of a pocock or warburton in the team. What we are really missing is a big, strong 12 who can break the gaineline and offload at international level.

I don't entirely disagree with this, but I don't think the answer is a "big strong 12". Otherwise we might as well start Spence at 12 and that would be it sorted. The top teams (NZ, AU, SA, FR) have Nonu/SBW, O'Connor/Barnes, Steyn/De Villiers and Mermoz. Pretty much all of those players are very creative and good distributors, and can create something out of nothing. Some aren't even that big, but are able to compete with the 12s you describe. I think a strike runner is needed in midfield yes, but they can be at 12 or 13 (or both). The likes of Jacque Fourie is a big running 13, and IMO the best 13 in the world. Rougerie would also be this kind of 13, as is Tuilagi, and distribution isn't just as important here.

Then you have Roberts who is the one dimensional, crash ball centre. Though he is very good at it, and can demolish the oppositions defensive line. However, I think a creative 12 is what is needed most importantly. They need to also be able to defend against other centres and have the size/strength/feet to break the gainline and create gaps. Then a direct running 13 can exploit this, especially with good support from the back three.

SecretFly wrote:

DOD wrote: The argument regarding the coaching is neither here nor there but is an interesting opinion without any solid facts.

My argument in a nutshell! Oversimplification is the art of seeing the tree in the wood that you want to cut down and bring home to the fire, rather than cutting the whole wood down to get to it. Over-simplification is a very good idea... as no finance minister in the history of this (Irish) state has ever worked out.

But to get back to your point DOD, yes - the argument regarding coaching is neither HERE NOR THERE - and thus the problem sits before us and thus Kidney needs a solution. Is it here or there?

Strong in hyperbole and prose but weak in every other department. Out with it man.

leinsterbaby wrote:

red_stag wrote:Leinster I doubt thats the case. Gaffney stifled the Leinster backs before Ireland and stifled Munsters ones before that.

Nonsense Leinster had no issue in the backs with Gaffney there. We do have a more backs focused manager now though.

Yeah we did,I can still remember losing the League final to the Ospreys at home,that was a typical attacking display from us at the time.Our attacking play was so bereft of ideas all game it was horrible to watch.Gaffney brought nothing to Leinster and I think he's the most overrated coach I've ever seen.

Sin é wrote:He just does not have the top 2 cm to be a top competitor.

I smile when I hear those comments because I really do feel those kind of comments will come back to haunt those who, like you, share them.

Sin e, coaches bring 'styles' to their job every bit as much as players do. You use the word 'blame', I use the word 'style - the style Kidney knows, is comfortable coaching, Believes In (a very important one) and has certain players he knows has the ability to play the style he likes with their proverbial eyes closed.

It's natural, it happens, coaches like certain styles, they grow into them, they've watched and admired them and Believe in the effectiveness of the style. Kidney feels uncomfortable in the fast and furious environment of SH style rugby..and I'd say a great part of him doesn't even trust it. He'll be actually relieved about this WC and the kinds of games that were needed to win. SH sides had to tone down the theatrics and play sensible, one step at a time rugby. Kidney likes this brand - is he to blame for anything because he likes this version? No, not personally. But if you, hand on heart, can tell me you wouldn't like to see Ireland play a more Leinster style version of international rugby then I'll just have to live with that. It's not about Leinster v Munster or Kidney v Schmidt, it's a brand of rugby that puts smiles on faces, sends pulses of adrenalin through ecomically gloomy souls, and yes, it can and does also win. Nobody wants fireworks without the rosette that goes with it. Success and beauty is what we all want - you included.

I'll leave you with it DOD, and stick by my comment about a Munster/South African forwards dominated, 'earning the right to go wide' philosophy being the most dominant in the Irish set up at present. That doesn't need acres of facts and figures gleaned from the stats engines of cyberspace, just a pair of eyes.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:He just does not have the top 2 cm to be a top competitor.

I smile when I hear those comments because I really do feel those kind of comments will come back to haunt those who, like you, share them.

Sin e, coaches bring 'styles' to their job every bit as much as players do. You use the word 'blame', I use the word 'style - the style Kidney knows, is comfortable coaching, Believes In (a very important one) and has certain players he knows has the ability to play the style he likes with their proverbial eyes closed.

It's natural, it happens, coaches like certain styles, they grow into them, they've watched and admired them and Believe in the effectiveness of the style. Kidney feels uncomfortable in the fast and furious environment of SH style rugby..and I'd say a great part of him doesn't even trust it. He'll be actually relieved about this WC and the kinds of games that were needed to win. SH sides had to tone down the theatrics and play sensible, one step at a time rugby. Kidney likes this brand - is he to blame for anything because he likes this version? No, not personally. But if you, hand on heart, can tell me you wouldn't like to see Ireland play a more Leinster style version of international rugby then I'll just have to live with that. It's not about Leinster v Munster or Kidney v Schmidt, it's a brand of rugby that puts smiles on faces, sends pulses of adrenalin through ecomically gloomy souls, and yes, it can and does also win. Nobody wants fireworks without the rosette that goes with it. Success and beauty is what we all want - you included.

If Ireland got to play teams of the same quality as Bath every week then who wouldnt like the Leinster "style" of rugby. Brian Ashton tried to have us play that type of rugby too...cant remember too many people smiling at the time.

I have to say that the solution to Irelands problems are staring us right in the face but because of the sensitivities around the provincial rivalries most are afraid to come out and say it.

Kidney need to pick the bulk of the Leinster side and let them play their natural game.

Leinster are playing fantastic attacking rugby and Ulster and munster quite frankly for the most part aren't. Therefore it stands to reason that the more players from the other provinces and clubs you dilute Leinster with the more it stifles the play and cohesion.

Kidney should start by picking the entire Leinster side, NIQ's excepted and then fill the gaps with other players from other sources and where there are players like O'Connell, Ferris, Best, Murray etc who are perhaps better than their Leinster equivalents and only where they fit the style of play. Simple and if that means theres 9 or 10 Leinster players in the XV then feck it.

DOD wrote:
Brian Ashton tried to have us play that type of rugby too...cant remember too many people smiling at the time.

Thats because we had rubbish players back then.

Rodders isn't that what we do already?

Healy, Ross, O'Brien, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, Darcy, O'Driscoll, Kearney - thats 9 Leinster players.

He means 13 at least.