Will Farrell pick Farrell?

First topic message reminder :

Good articles in the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8945374/England-assistant-coach-Andy-Farrell-says-son-Owen-on-fringes-of-national-call-up-but-must-earn-place.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/8949532/Owen-Farrell-impresses-for-Saracens-in-hope-of-winning-fathers-Andys-nod-for-England.html

The question I have is Is Owen Farrell good enough to get into the EPS? It must be pretty difficult for both of them with fears of nepotism being alleged. Just imagine if he gets into the England XV and has a stinker, the papers would have a field day.

I for one think that he is good enough and if he is good enough, he should be picked in he squad.

It will be interesting to see what happens. What do you think?

DaveM why would Cockerill pick Smith and Allen if Twelvetrees is so unbelievably amazing?

Smith was selected at 13 with Manu at 12 as Cockerill was trying to shut down the physical Clermont attack. The entire Clermont back division is BIG, so Tigers put Manu in at 12 to smash the ball up and the in form Smith (who tackles like a blind side) at 13. In theory it was a good idea. In practice it didn't work.

Sam why was Twelvetrees not picked? Was he deemed not big enough? Is his tackling not up to scratch?Cockerill must have a reason for not picking him.

Why couldn't the mighty Twelvetrees shut down the Clermont attack? Surely he is bigger than Smith?

beshocked wrote:
Why couldn't the mighty Twelvetrees shut down the Clermont attack? Surely he is bigger than Smith?

Obviously its because he didnt have Farrell outside him

Smith is over 6 foot and 16 stone, there aren't that many none PI centres in the league that are bigger. As said above he tackles like a blind side and against Ulster made 13 tackles including several big ones on Trimble to cut down attacks. He's the form player and scored a great try vs Saints. Twelvetrees is returning from injury and is a much better attacking threat but doesn't offer the same defensive organisational skills that Smith does. Remember Smith is a couple of years older and has played in multiple AP and a HEC final. Away against Clermont midfield solidarity was important.

Twelvetrees clearly brought the midfield to life when he came on and will be selected this week as at home Tigers will want to be more forthright in their game plan. Horses for courses and all that.

Yet the entire internet would go into meltdown if Allen got picked to play for England, despite him having been one of the top premiership performers for pretty much his entire career.

I was a little surprised with the whole Manu at 12 and Billy on the bench, and after shouting for Manu to play there for so long saw what a disaster it would be. Shows how much I know about centres!

Twelvetrees should have been started though, England showed picking centres just to defend doesn't work and Leicester reafirmed that.

My view, is that Farrell is one of the best backs in England. It would be wise to let him at least train with the EPS. He is one a few Sarries backs that are looking very good.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

DaveM wrote:
As observed above, he can run, carry, hit rucks, tackle (I think his defence is excellent), kick from hand and ground, and is in my opinion one of the very finest passers in English rugby.

And yet despite all that hes rarely the stand out player in a game. Its rather baffling really.

I think given his lack of starts he quite often stands out. I'd say Allen rarely does, what he brings is a very high level of consistency, but I've very rarely watched him play and thought 'wow, he has to play for England'.

Beshocked, I don't think Cockerill trusts Twelvetrees, and after Saxons started picking him at IC (ahead of Allen) Cockerill seemed to snub Twelvetrees which has meant he doesn't have as much experience as he should do by now. I really hope Billy will move on this summer to find a club where he'll be first choice at IC and can flourish.

DaveM you have to ask yourself why does Cockerill not trust Twelvetrees? You hit the nail on the head - it's to do with consistency. Every side needs the grafters, the guys who do the unseen work, the underrated stuff. Barritt and Allen fit more into this category. It's why they have been overlooked by England.

Allen last season made the Leicester backline tick along nicely. Barritt has been integral to the Saracens backline.

You have to accept that Twelvetrees has his limitations as Farrell does too. They can both work on their weaknesses though.

beshocked wrote:DaveM you have to ask yourself why does Cockerill not trust Twelvetrees? You hit the nail on the head - it's to do with consistency. Every side needs the grafters, the guys who do the unseen work, the underrated stuff. Barritt and Allen fit more into this category. It's why they have been overlooked by England.

Allen last season made the Leicester backline tick along nicely. Barritt has been integral to the Saracens backline.

You have to accept that Twelvetrees has his limitations as Farrell does too. They can both work on their weaknesses though.

Isnt that also the justification for England selecting Hape, Tindall, Deacon, Easter, Cueto, Moody etc though.

But aside from playing the favourites game yes youre right, england have a bunch of centers to pick from all of whome have their abilkities and limitations. Get those guys into the EPS and get them playing and see who delivers. Tuilagis spot is surely set at the moment, but along with him you could easily take 4 other guys from Tigers and Saracens and have a pretty exciteing bunch of prospects poffering a range of options.
Its then really down to which of them turn up in training and improve going forwards, then deliver on the pitch.

DaveM you have to ask yourself why does Cockerill not trust Twelvetrees? You hit the nail on the head - it's to do with consistency

It's also a lot to do with how Allen gets the backs to function. With Manu at 13 (by far the best 13 in the league) you need the 12 to take responsibility for organising the defence and also managing Manu. Barritt and Allen have the experience to run a good defence. Twelvetrees isn't on the same level so I think it boiled down to which younger did Cockers prefer to play Twelvetrees or Manu. Manu was always going to win that. Last weekend was the first weekend where Twelvetrees has been available but Allen has not and Twelvetrees hasn't started. He is the number 2 IC and is fighting for his place same as Farrell and like Farrell when the number 1 OC was injured he played OC. Farrell is getting a good run of games because Powell is apparently now well out of favour following his injury where as Farrell's points kicking is highly valued.

Look we do seem to be arguing over whether grapes have seeds in them or not here.

One of FArrell or Twevetrees probably should be in the England squad. Right now Farrell is arguably ahead in his development, playing more regulalry, and playing better. Hes the more obvious choice if it came to a straight decision between the two.
But neither is yet getting first choice in their natural positions (or the positions England are likely to want them for) at club level, so it wouldnt be beyiond the realms of possibility that neither would get called up.
It would certainly be a strectch to see either as a start/bench option for England but you never know. Its as likely we'd see Flutey or Hape or someone else that everyones forgotten about.

beshocked wrote:DaveM you have to ask yourself why does Cockerill not trust Twelvetrees? You hit the nail on the head - it's to do with consistency. Every side needs the grafters, the guys who do the unseen work, the underrated stuff. Barritt and Allen fit more into this category. It's why they have been overlooked by England.
.

I think Sam hit the nail on the head, Cockerill isn't comfortable with too much youth (look at his preference for Grindal over Harrison last season and Chuter over Youngs this), and so Billy is squeezed out. I just don't see a glaring weakness in Twelvetrees, he tackles, he hits rucks, he rarely gets exposed positionally. He just has to get out of Leicester. It's a good job the Leicester academy struggles to produce groups of players, because they wouldn't get the game time. One or two a season Cockerill can handle.

Having watched Twelvetrees play for the saxons in the churchill cup he showed how good he can be and he doesn't lack in size either I was surprised when I saw how big he was (6ft 3 and nearly 16st) I don't understand why he doesn't get played for tigers to be honest he's obviously a class player.

I don't understand why he doesn't get played for tigers to be honest he's obviously a class player..

At the minute it looks to be injury. He was a regular before injuring his ankle this season and after a couple of games back (when we had no other centres available over the age of 18) he was slotted onto the bench. After Cockerill's comments about resting players not fully fit and using them sparingly from the bench (re Waldrom) I'm starting to think Twelvetrees isn't quite right yet.

Chuter over Youngs this

Youngs had a back problem. Has now had surgery and is out until January. The waiting game worked for Harrison. He's gone from 4th choice to 2nd.