No Welsh teams in the 1/4 finala again ?

First topic message reminder :

In the last couple of weeks a numbers of posters from Wales have been posting gloating messages harking on how well the regsions were doing and how no English teams will be maing he 1/4 finals. How things have changed! The Ospreys are all but out, the Scarlets are in big trouble and unless they tturn Musnter over today in Thomond which is about as likely as Wales winning a rugby world cup then they are gonners to. Cardiff still hae a chance, although I fancy London Irish to oick up the bonus point win today making he group wide open. and I still fancy London Irish to qualify as I think they will win their remaining games. So, with Wales haing LOST their last 3 internationals and only 8th in the world rankings, the regions struggling to qualify to make the 1/4 finals yet again and the terrible low crowds (only 7000 for the most important game of the season for the ospreys to date) is Welsh rugby dying a slow but painful death?

Beshocked

we have already ran leicester close at Welford Road during possibly the worst spell of form in two years here. I am not saying that leicester arent an incredibly tough proposition and historically you would be right in saying that Ulster arent in Leicesters league but that means nothing.

The two team are much of a muchless at present in terms of league form the only difference being Ulster have to win a hom head to head against them by more than 7 to knock leicester out. Thats advantage Ulster if you ask me.

These guys, i think, are out of contract this season and the bulk will be off (or should be off!)

Tika
Patterson & Pretorious will be battling it out for the 6 shirt next year. not to mention he is 36/37, getting on.

Filise
He's 35, i think and while he can play a big part in some matches, his scrummaging is definitely something that is picked up by the bigger teams in europe. We have Scott Andrews who, if he is ever to be an international player, needs the game time to play. Having said that, we need to invest in a scrummager as Andrews is a young guy and you can't hang hopes on a young prop. We need someone experienced to be there to come off the bench when things aren't going his way.

Parks
Contract expires and although he keeps us in games with his goal kicking, his lack of prowess in the attack side of the game means we should look elsewhere. I don't think there are any options in terms of welsh fly halves, but i would like to see money spent on getting a decent fly half and maybe have a young player from the region being trusted and given a chance in the LV games. We will still have Sweeney for next season, not that he will get a look in.

Nugget
Legend...but now 3rd in the pecking order behind Warburton and then Navidi who should get more game time next season when Warbs is away on Wales duty.

Deiniol Jones
We have Bradley Davies, James Down, Cory Hill & Macauley Cook. We don't need to invest here, we need to develop the latter 3 - they are big guys (Down is 6'7 & Hill/Cook are 6'4) who deserve a chance.

Rush
You can see that father time has hampered him a bit this season, he still carries the ball well but his impact is diminishing. Unfortunately we don't have any number 8 prospects (that i know of, it's usually him and Tika covering 8) unless we shift pretorious there but i would rather him stay at 6 with Paterson.

Blair
Out injured all season and likely to leave, we have Halfpenny at fullback and Czekaj also. I would like to see Cory Allen given a go because Czekaj seems to not enjoy running full speed (anyone seen him do that lately?).

Gethin Jenkins (Poss)
Would be a big loss but i guess at his age, after his career for wales and the blues...if he wants a big pay day in france, i can't blame him for leaving. Sam Hobbs looks a decent loose head and isn't afraid to stick up for himself and won't be bullied. Still gutted we let Gill go to Sarries.

Laulala (Poss)
Casey was rumoured to be linked with Toulon and he's been playing like his head is somewhere else at times. Which is a shame, as he's a class player when on form. Currently have Roberts, Hewitt & Evans on the books as the other centres. Obviously there's the Gav, but he's on a play & pay deal until the end of the season. We may need to invest here as i don't know how long Evans is contracted until.

beshocked wrote:
Ulster are simply not as strong as Quins,Sarries and Leicester. Certainly not in my opinion anyway. Sure they can beat Bath but the other English sides?

Ulster are not on par with Leinster and Munster.

I actually think thats a fair comment and beshocked is perfectly justified in thinking that way.

Ulster will have to do their talking on the pitch and if we want the respect that Leinster and Munster have then we need to earn that. Our away record is very poor, especially our record in England. Until that changes then we have to accept that a lot of people won't rate us. We beat bath home and away 2 years running but capitulated against Saints and Leicester in our last two high profile games against English opposition.

A solid win over the Tigers at Ravenhill is a good place to start changing hearts and minds and I'm perfectly happy for people to write us off!

SUFTUM!

Please don't put words into my mouth guys.

Of course I knew what you meant artful dodger. I said it as a little joke but evidently you didn't see the funny side.

I am making conversation that's why. I like to randomly switch. I probably contradict myself a lot. Some people even believe I am anti Leicester.

Very true it is arrogant. I apologise. If Ulster win then I will say that Ulster were more of a match for Leicester. Could you quote me where I said that Leicester will definitely win? I said they could well win. If Toulouse and Ospreys can lose at home so can Ulster.

No I think Leicester are stronger than Ulster because I think they are a better side. E.g. on neutral territory I think Leicester would win. At home of course Ulster are the favourites.

I miscalculated Clermont's points. Didn't realise they could come top even if they lose more matches than Leicester.

I do think Leinster and Munster are currently stronger than the three English sides mentioned but things can change.

Standulsterman we'll see in the Ulster vs Leicester match.

Roddersm thank you. That's how I feel. I believe teams will be very wary of Ulster especially at Ravenhill but not away from home.

Think of it as - if a certain fan is arrogant generally at some point they are in for a heavy fall.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardiffonline/cardiff-rugby/2011/12/20/10-reasons-why-european-misery-looks-like-continuing-for-welsh-regions-91466-29979307/

This is a article on Welsh woes - do you agree?

1. Yes, but its irrelevant, everyone in the NH works to the same basic season structure.

8. No, all teams deal with injuries.

9. No, all teams are in a continual state of evolution, so i dont buy that teams overall "get better".

2/3/4/5/6/10. Yes

7. Yes, but excluding the Scarlets.

Its typical doom and gloom of the welsh media mind. I dont think theres that much of a problem as is being made out.

gcBlues wrote:These guys, i think, are out of contract this season and the bulk will be off (or should be off!)

Tika
Patterson & Pretorious will be battling it out for the 6 shirt next year. not to mention he is 36/37, getting on.

Filise
He's 35, i think and while he can play a big part in some matches, his scrummaging is definitely something that is picked up by the bigger teams in europe. We have Scott Andrews who, if he is ever to be an international player, needs the game time to play. Having said that, we need to invest in a scrummager as Andrews is a young guy and you can't hang hopes on a young prop. We need someone experienced to be there to come off the bench when things aren't going his way.

Parks
Contract expires and although he keeps us in games with his goal kicking, his lack of prowess in the attack side of the game means we should look elsewhere. I don't think there are any options in terms of welsh fly halves, but i would like to see money spent on getting a decent fly half and maybe have a young player from the region being trusted and given a chance in the LV games. We will still have Sweeney for next season, not that he will get a look in.

Nugget
Legend...but now 3rd in the pecking order behind Warburton and then Navidi who should get more game time next season when Warbs is away on Wales duty.

Deiniol Jones
We have Bradley Davies, James Down, Cory Hill & Macauley Cook. We don't need to invest here, we need to develop the latter 3 - they are big guys (Down is 6'7 & Hill/Cook are 6'4) who deserve a chance.

Rush
You can see that father time has hampered him a bit this season, he still carries the ball well but his impact is diminishing. Unfortunately we don't have any number 8 prospects (that i know of, it's usually him and Tika covering 8) unless we shift pretorious there but i would rather him stay at 6 with Paterson.

Blair
Out injured all season and likely to leave, we have Halfpenny at fullback and Czekaj also. I would like to see Cory Allen given a go because Czekaj seems to not enjoy running full speed (anyone seen him do that lately?).

Gethin Jenkins (Poss)
Would be a big loss but i guess at his age, after his career for wales and the blues...if he wants a big pay day in france, i can't blame him for leaving. Sam Hobbs looks a decent loose head and isn't afraid to stick up for himself and won't be bullied. Still gutted we let Gill go to Sarries.

Laulala (Poss)
Casey was rumoured to be linked with Toulon and he's been playing like his head is somewhere else at times. Which is a shame, as he's a class player when on form. Currently have Roberts, Hewitt & Evans on the books as the other centres. Obviously there's the Gav, but he's on a play & pay deal until the end of the season. We may need to invest here as i don't know how long Evans is contracted until.

Thats all quite good news really though isn't it? Certainly reduces the wages bill massively, chops the dead wood and promotes some great young talent.

definitely

Cant see the Blues keeping Lualala with the amount of center options they have.

What solutions would they have for replacing Parks though?

Well definately not Sweeney!

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well definately not Sweeney!

Even if Sweeney was in his best ever form, he was a decent player once and with more game time would be better than now, but he is too old to make a long term difference. The Blues need a young talisman at ten.

I dont know who they have at their disposal, or whether one of the Flyhalves not getting a fisrt choice part in another region might move over to the Blues.

you keep your hands of J Williams!

Smirnoffpriest wrote:you keep your hands of J Williams!

Jordan Williams currently has three fly-halves standing in front of him.

The only fly half to play games for the blues which hasn't been Parks or Sweeney in the last 2 seasons has been Gareth Davies, the Cardiff RFC 10 who is around 27 i think. We either take a punt on him or go for an equally inexperienced but younger player.

gcBlues wrote:The only fly half to play games for the blues which hasn't been Parks or Sweeney in the last 2 seasons has been Gareth Davies, the Cardiff RFC 10 who is around 27 i think. We either take a punt on him or go for an equally inexperienced but younger player.

Bar Steven Jones all the regions have invested in local talent under 25. (Biggar, Tovey, Morgan, Steffan Jones, Jordan Williams etc are all under 22).

The last three seasons the Blues have opted for frankly useless, but more importantly, expensive foreigners and not tried to blood any young players.

maestegmafia wrote:The last three seasons the Blues have opted for frankly useless, but more importantly, expensive foreigners and not tried to blood any young players.

This, is why we've got nowhere as far as I'm concerned. Even without a scrummaging tighthead, the forwards set a decent enough platform.

maestegmafia wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:you keep your hands of J Williams!

Jordan Williams currently has three fly-halves standing in front of him.

But stephen jomes will be retiring soon and jordan will soon be in front of newton, whose good but not great - and when priesands away with wales jordan will be our main fh in a season or 2. Besides hes only 19.

*I meant stephen jones of course - god damn android


I never understood why the blues stuck with sweeney for so long as they had decent flyhalfs in Robinson and Parks (and Parks like him or not can win you games with his kicking and is steady if spectacularly unattacking) so it would have been a perfect time to bring through a youngster who would at least been as good as Sweeney (and there must be at least 1 promising youngster in the whole region)

beshocked wrote: Geoff when Ulster have come up against one of the stronger English sides they have lost.

.

Away yes, at home no.

In the last 10 years we have Won 9 and Lost 1 at home (Gloucester)
In the same period we have Won 2 (Bath) and Lost 8.

I think we can claim parity on that basis. The English teams beaten include the best England has to offer (only Saracens of the top sides not played in that period). Leicester, Wasps (when they were god), Quins, Irish, Saints have all be put to the sword at Ravenhill in that time.

Geoff I was referring more to Ulster's last 2 losses - Leicester and Saints but you are indeed correct.

The key point though is they were both away - the records clearly shows at home we regularly beat the best in England, the same record shows we regularly lose away to the best in England. (other than against those nice chaps at the Rec who we beat wherever we play them )

I think on this thread about welsh teams in the heineken cup, we have safely decided that Ulster, the irish province, can beat english teams at home, but perhaps not away.

Unless you're Bath, of course, then you're screwed.

Point taken

Nice summary Comfort. We have talked about Wale's woes a lot. Ulster need a little bit of the limelight.

I think the Welsh regions should be looking to lure their boys back.

The likes of Delve,Gill,Peel and Robinson should all be targets.

Delve may well be coming back to the Blues.... heard that somewhere anyways. Rush seems to be out of pace now.

and everyones a winner!!! ahhh i love christmas!

I'd love to see Delve come back to replace Rush next season, and Robinson return so we can rid ourselves of Parks. Parks is an excellant kicker and his kicking can keep us in games. My problem with all of that is that if he released the blues backline his kicking wouldnt "need to keep us in games".
I told you earlier, I'll give you Scott Andrews, you give us Gill?

As Noel would say, Deal or no deal?

A lot of Scotts players are heading back home - maybe they can pick parks up on the way ?

munkian wrote:A lot of Scotts players are heading back home - maybe they can pick parks up on the way ?

We're touring in February, we're heading to Glasgow, if everyone chips in a quid each I'll take him myself!

Comfort unfortunately Gill is a loosehead. We don't need anymore tightheads. No deal.

I think competition for signing of props is going to be fierce. I know a lot of teams are on the market at the moment.

Make sure you have room for his hair products

i think Robinsons a risk as well as he can be a bit inconsistent and there's no way any of the regions will pick up Peel unfortunately as the Dragons can't afford him and all the other regions have good youngsters in those positions

apologies beshocked, i was under the impression Gill could play both sides.

Robinson can be inconsistent Smirnoff, but, in relation to how inconsistent Parks and Sweeney can be, well, we saw Parks perform his very own christmas panto of 'Jeckyll and Hyde' in the b2b HC games.

True true I'm still shocked that G Davies is 27 and has only gotten 9 games considering the problems you've had in that position for years

Signing Nicky would be pointless because we don't have the comfort blanket of Ben Blair kicking the points

that's what I was thinking gcBlues - there's probably more consistent/rounded flyhalfs out there - it's still a shame you couldn't sign Shingler.

I suppose you do have Henson - but not sure how consistent his kicking will be after all this time away

You have Halfpenny to take the kicks. Robinson nailed all his attempted kicks for Wasps against Bayonne I think? Not to mention he can relase the backline and is one of the best attacking fly-halves playing in England. If Blues can lure him back along with Delve and keep hold of (an in form) Henson, Gethin and possibly Casey then you have the means to be a force in Europe again.

But Halfpenny has never taken kicks consistently for any team - just the long range ones - so that's a risk. And I think everyone agrees Robinson can be very good - but you need your 10 to be very consisent game in game out - not sure if Robinson can do that.

Also Casey has been way off form this season - knocking on, running down blind alleys and giving poor passes - which isn't like him

He has in a few games for the Blues. With Parks gone, all kicking duties should fall to him. Him, Henson and Robinson gives the Blues 3 kicking options.

and you've got Geth Jenkins as well...

And Martyn Williams

Don't mention that match - I still get flashbacks....the horror....the horror

Still annoyed with that game - they should have won it - at least there was a few more Scarlets fans in our stand cheering on another Welsh team.

Maybe Warburton will be better at kicks...